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  #51  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I still think you're refusing to state your agenda.
Iím not sure how I can put a finer point on it: my agenda is to read peopleís responses, and perhaps ask further questions if the fancy strikes me.

I think there have been a number of thoughtful responses so far, and I sincerely thank those posters for sharing their opinions and personal circumstances.
  #52  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:52 AM
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I've never considered buying an AED. They have limited utility in my view. Guns on the other hand, while they serve the primary purpose of defense, they are also fun to shoot so their utility is multifold.

Last edited by Bone; 02-14-2019 at 11:52 AM.
  #53  
Old 02-14-2019, 12:16 PM
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It's not going to be easy to determine how comparable the usefulness of having an AED in the home is to the usefulness of owning a gun for self-defense.

Let's suppose that cardiac arrest deaths are roughly as common as defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home according to the stats. That still wouldn't tell us much.

How many of those cardiac arrest deaths happened in the home? How many had someone else in the home capable of using an AED? How many had shockable rhythms? How many already had an external defibrillator implanted? How many people are there that can't afford an AED but inherited a gun with a poor resale value?

How reliable are the stats on defensive gun uses? Do data collectors get data from police departments regarding when someone pulls a gun on someone to defend themselves and that was enough of a deterrent without shooting? How many of those instances are even reported to the police? Are some gun owners aware they live in areas that make them much more likely to attack than the national average? Do data collectors know how many attacks don't happen because would be attackers are aware that people in a particular community are carrying or have guns in the home? The potential of owning a gun can stave off attack; owning an AED doesn't scare your heart into not messing with you.

Those are just issues off the top of my head with attempting to determine an equivalency, but there is a much bigger issue with the comparison in the OP. Why would we compare all cardiac arrests to all defensive gun uses? The former is not regarding when an AED was used, but when a cardiac arrest occurred. The latter is regarding instances where self-defense use of a gun already happened, so a gun was used. Comparing instances of where an AED could have been used and may or may not have been, to instances where a gun was used is not a fair comparison.

So, if it were true that cardiac arrest deaths are roughly as common as defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home, then it can be assumed that having a gun is far more useful than having an AED in the home as there are going to be many more instances where firearm self defense would have been used but a gun wasn't available. But it's still a big assumption due to the variables mentioned and still more, such as how many defensive gun uses actually helped the situation? How many made it even worse? Too much to calculate.
  #54  
Old 02-14-2019, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by x-ray vision View Post
So, if it were true that cardiac arrest deaths are roughly as common as defensive gun uses inside and outside of the home, then it can be assumed that having a gun is far more useful than having an AED in the home as there are going to be many more instances where firearm self defense would have been used but a gun wasn't available. But it's still a big assumption due to the variables mentioned and still more, such as how many defensive gun uses actually helped the situation? How many made it even worse? Too much to calculate.
Well we know how many fatal out-of-hospital cardiac arrests there are:

https://www.sca-aware.org/sca-news/a...cardiac-arrest
356,461 out of hospital cardiac arrests per year, 90% of which are fatal, for a grand total of 320,814 deaths.

68.5% are at home, for 219,757 deaths. Of those, 19.8% might have been responsive to a AED for a total of 41,534 deaths that might have been prevented.
  #55  
Old 02-14-2019, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
68.5% are at home
They weren't all necessarily at their home, just someone's residence. Of those that have an AED in their own home, we don't know how many live alone or with someone capable of using an AED (they're fairly simple to use, but some old, feeble, children, bed ridden, etc., aren't going to be able to). We don't know how many already had an implantable defibrillator.
  #56  
Old 02-14-2019, 04:49 PM
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So gun owners, have you ever thought about buying an AED so you and your family could be prepared on your worst day? Why, or why not?
Gun owner here. I didn't know that they were that reasonably priced. I see them on Amazon in the $1200 range. I don't have a gun that cost anywhere near that much. My most expensive gun was $700 and was a gift from my wife. But sure, I'll consider it. Especially if I can use my HSA dollars to do it.
  #57  
Old 02-14-2019, 05:06 PM
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Nitpick: Defibrillators are helpful in restoring a heart to its normal rhythm in the case of a sudden cardiac arrest. Heart attacks may lead to cardiac arrest, but defibrillation is otherwise useless in treating a heart attack.
Thank you. Keeping aspirin or nitro medicine in the cabinet is a better analogy.

Edit: Reading this thread and all those stats is making my chest hurt. Also if my AED comes with Eva Green I'll get one.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 02-14-2019 at 05:10 PM.
  #58  
Old 02-14-2019, 05:38 PM
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^ Nitroglycerin isn't something kept on hand in case of a heart attack; it's used by prescription only for treating angina. Aspirin is much more likely to be helpful in treating a heart attack, followed by prompt medical attention, of course.
  #59  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nars Glinley View Post
Gun owner here. I didn't know that they were that reasonably priced. I see them on Amazon in the $1200 range. I don't have a gun that cost anywhere near that much. My most expensive gun was $700 and was a gift from my wife. But sure, I'll consider it. Especially if I can use my HSA dollars to do it.
The need and cost of maintaining most firearms are low. If not used and just stored for emergency use, close to zero. Not the case for owning an AED.

https://www.sca-aware.org/sca-news/p...event-failures

https://www.altramedical.com/aed-cost-of-ownership/

Guns are fairly simple and they usually work when needed. AEDs are more complicated pieces of equipment and there are lots of things that can go wrong when one is needed, especially without regular maintenance.
  #60  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:08 PM
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I don't know how accurate/updated the laws are on the page below, but there are state laws to consider also.

https://www.aeduniverse.com/AED_Laws_by_State_s/97.htm
  #61  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:16 PM
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In my state:
Quote:
A person shall not use an AED unless he/she has successfully completed and holds a current certification from the American Red Cross, American Heart Association or other training program recognized by the Department of Health and Senior Services in CPR and use of an AED; provided however, this section shall not be applicable to a person who is licensed as a paramedic, emergency medical technician-D, or a first responder-D by the Department of Health and Senior Services.
Comparing AED use to firearm self-defense use is even more restrictive than I thought.
  #62  
Old 02-15-2019, 04:37 AM
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Here's an example right on this board of why some people need guns.
  #63  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:04 PM
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^ Wrong thread? This isn't a guns good vs. guns bad thread. There examples of AEDs being needed too, obviously.
  #64  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:31 PM
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Kinda curious what a bad AED use would look like, though.
  #65  
Old 02-15-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
AEDs are a pretty obscure item. They don't fix all heart attacks, only the specific condition of tachycardia and fibrillation, right? And I'm guessing you couldn't effectively apply them yourself. And even then, it just keeps you alive long enough ideally for medical help to arrive. So these aren't magic heart attack saving boxes, it's not clear that owning one in a home as an individual is a very useful plan.

So why don't we draw a closer comparison? Fire extinguishers. Simple, common, easy to store, available whenever you need it, no special training required, second person not required, follow on emergency care not generally required. You just use them in the unlikely event you need them, and they generally solve the problem they were created to solve. The analogy is far more perfect in this case than with an AED.

This is a silly thread. I guess gun owners are all hypocrites if they don't own an AED, which is not something that I've heard medical professionals advocate for being as a normal piece of equipment in the average home, because hey, if you think you need a tool to help you in one emergency, you need tools to be able to help yourself in every kind of emergency, or you're a hypocrite I guess.
No AED, as pointed out they are useless for most forms of heart attack ... but for that I have a husband who is a trained EMT.


We do have numerous fire extinguishers around, not to mention smaller ones for our vehicles. A very sensible item to keep around. We also have mrAru's jump kit, while not as chock full of medical goodies as a current running EMT would have, it is pretty complete.
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  #66  
Old 02-15-2019, 06:41 PM
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In terms of sudden, traumatic death, "miniscule" is clearly wrong. Gun deaths are the fourth most prevalent type of injurious death in the United States, behind poisonings/drug overdoses, car accidents, and falls, and they are not that far behind. Those four are way ahead of anything else.
Ban the sale of new cars and ladders immediately.
  #67  
Old 02-16-2019, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
AEDs are a pretty obscure item. They don't fix all heart attacks, only the specific condition of tachycardia and fibrillation, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
No AED, as pointed out they are useless for most forms of heart attack
What exactly are you saying "no" to? You just repeat what he says leaving out his mentioning tachycardia and fibrillation.

It hasn't been pointed out that defibrillators are useless for most types of heart attacks- it's been pointed out that they're useless for ALL heart attacks. SenorBeef is correct in mentioning tachycardia and fibrillation.

Quote:
but for that I have a husband who is a trained EMT.
One (EMT or not) is more likely to be successful treating a cardiac arrest with an AED on hand.
  #68  
Old 02-16-2019, 07:57 PM
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The premise makes no sense and is obviously agenda driven. It's based on a finite choice of products to purchase and for some strange reason involves only guns and defibrillators. We'll pretend it's possible to use a defibrillator on yourself for the sake of argument.

OK, lets play that game, I'll use a product you've spoke fondly of, a new Tesla Model 3. I still want my gun AND a new car AND a defibrillator. Instead of a Model 3 I buy a Chevy Bolt and use the savings to buy a defibrillator AND gun. Any money left over can go toward hookers with CPR training.

I've solved the safety dilemma facing potential Model 3 buyers.

Last edited by Magiver; 02-16-2019 at 07:58 PM.
  #69  
Old 02-16-2019, 08:06 PM
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The premise makes no sense and is obviously agenda driven. It's based on a finite choice of products to purchase and for some strange reason involves only guns and defibrillators. We'll pretend it's possible to use a defibrillator on yourself for the sake of argument.

OK, lets play that game, I'll use a product you've spoke fondly of, a new Tesla Model 3. I still want my gun AND a new car AND a defibrillator. Instead of a Model 3 I buy a Chevy Bolt and use the savings to buy a defibrillator AND gun. Any money left over can go toward hookers with CPR training.

I've solved the safety dilemma facing potential Model 3 buyers.
Can we skip all three and just buy hookers with martial arts and CPR training, no need to leave the house.
  #70  
Old 02-16-2019, 08:22 PM
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Can we skip all three and just buy hookers with martial arts and CPR training, no need to leave the house.
Someone always thinking outside the box. But you left one thing out. She needs to be an Uber driver.

Last edited by Magiver; 02-16-2019 at 08:23 PM.
  #71  
Old 02-16-2019, 09:44 PM
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Someone always thinking outside the box. But you left one thing out. She needs to be an Uber driver.
Why would I go anywhere?
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