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Old 07-26-2019, 10:55 AM
2nd Law is offline
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Originally Posted by adaher View Post

And yet has there ever been a battle where both sides did everything right and were reasonably matched? Or a battle that comes close?
My proposal would be The Battle of Hampton Roads.

The USS Monitor and CSS Virginia meet in open combat in the first battle of ironclad ships. Neither side made any significant errors, the two ships pounded away at each other for most of the day, essentially coming to a draw -- though the Monitor did prevent the Virginia from doing further damage to the Union fleet, which can be viewed as a victory.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Crane View Post
Rayks,

I'd go with Isandlwana. It was a clash of two, very different, traditional styles of warfare.

.
The British committed several glaring errors there, so it doesnt qualify. The Zulu were nigh perfect, true.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 2nd Law View Post
My proposal would be The Battle of Hampton Roads.

The USS Monitor and CSS Virginia meet in open combat in the first battle of ironclad ships. Neither side made any significant errors, the two ships pounded away at each other for most of the day, essentially coming to a draw -- though the Monitor did prevent the Virginia from doing further damage to the Union fleet, which can be viewed as a victory.
The Monitor didnt use full charges on it's guns, if it had done so, the Merrimac would have been sunk.
  #54  
Old 07-26-2019, 11:08 PM
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The Monitor didnt use full charges on it's guns, if it had done so, the Merrimac would have been sunk.
From what I've read, the Monitor was using the standard charges of 15 pounds of powder recommended by Dahlgren, the guns' designer, though it was determined later that they could have used charges up to 30 pounds, which might well have turned the Virginia into swiss cheese. But considering what happened in the Peacemaker accident, it's understandable that overcharging an iron cannon would be a risk that Dahlgren would be leery of taking.
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:13 AM
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A good engineer rates his product at considerably less than its ultimate fail point, sometimes 50% less. See: Scottie on Star Trek.
  #56  
Old 07-28-2019, 10:40 AM
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Agincourt was pretty bad, but the absolute worst has to be the Third Battle of the Ypres Salient, aka Passchendaele, during the Great War.

The British shelled impregnable reinforced German trenches for an entire week, which did nothing but turn No Man’s Land into a rained-out mud pit. Then the Tommies reiterated the Gen. Haig Offensive Special, which involved walking blindly into Boche machine gun fire.

In addition to the usual senseless butchery, thousands of British soldiers drowned in the mire.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:20 PM
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Replies to the replies regarding Stalingrad: It doesn't matter how stupid the initial strategy or prescriptive commands were at the start. Von Manstein did order von Paulus to stand. It comes down to the fighting that ensued. A 350,000-strong German force was tasked to take Stalingrad, while a similar soviet force was ordered to defend it. The result: 240,000 Germans killed (counting the 6th Army only) while the 90,000 that surrendered died soon after. The soviets had 600,000 casualties with half them possibly killed. The civilian population of close to a million? I'm assuming most of them managed to flee the Germans. Otherwise, most are likely to have died as only 20,000 civilians were still alive inside the city when it was finally cleared.
  #58  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:40 AM
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Random Q: Is this the battle that Tom Clancy writes about so vividly in the prologue to The Sum of All Fears? IMHO, still some of the best 4-6 page of writing Clancy has ever penned.
I think Clancy was describing the Battle of teh Golan as a whole. The Valley of Tears was the left (northern) Israeli flank, which held; in the right flank, the Syrians broke through, but the remains of the Israeli forces fought a delaying battle and slowed them down enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Incidentally, the first reinforcements to arrive was a brigade of reservists - civilians, three days earlier - in upgraded WW2-era M4 Shermans. They were in such a hurry to get there that they hadn't had time to fuel up all the tanks, so they had to stop at a civilian gas station at the entrance to the Golan and fill up. The colonel ended up paying for it all with his personal credit card. I don't know if he was reimbursed.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike View Post
Agincourt was pretty bad, but the absolute worst has to be the Third Battle of the Ypres Salient, aka Passchendaele, during the Great War.

The British shelled impregnable reinforced German trenches for an entire week, which did nothing but turn No Man’s Land into a rained-out mud pit. Then the Tommies reiterated the Gen. Haig Offensive Special, which involved walking blindly into Boche machine gun fire.

In addition to the usual senseless butchery, thousands of British soldiers drowned in the mire.

Melchett: Now, Field Marshal Haig has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field.
Blackadder: Would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy, sir?
Darling: How can you possibly know that, Blackadder? It’s classified information !
Blackadder: It’s the same plan that we used last time, and the
seventeen times before that.
Melchett: E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We
will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they’ll expect us to do this time! There is, however, one small problem.
Blackadder: That everyone always gets slaughtered the first ten
seconds.
Melchett: That’s right! And Field Marshal Haig is worried that this
may be depressing the men a tadge.
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Last edited by Kobal2; 07-29-2019 at 03:43 AM.
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