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Old 07-28-2019, 08:31 PM
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Is conservative media the source of all issues that keep liberals up at night?


This is sort of a chicken-and-egg thing that I first considered about Trump. Republicans seem to be going along partly (though not entirely) they are terrified of his voters. But would Trump have that kind of force if it weren’t for conservative media? Did they “make” Trump?

That led me to wonder about other aspects. Would we have more than 18 months to solve climate change (that’s another thread) if it weren’t for conservative media telling their audience that it’s all a fraud? Would we have stricter gun laws by now? And so on and so forth.

Basically, I’ve seen left-leaning people argue that Rupert Murdoch or Sinclair Media or what have you have used their influence to tilt the scales, and I’m wondering how much they could practically have done that. If Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and Murdoch never existed, exactly how different would the political landscape be today?

In short, is today’s brand of conservatism only (as) popular due to the force of media?
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Old 07-28-2019, 08:43 PM
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I think conservative echo chambers play their role but I think the big factor is the gop going out of their way to appeal to white racists and white authoritarians.

86% of whites who scored highest in authoritarianism voted for trump. And white evangelicals are largely a white authoritarian movement.

I think that deserves more blame. The conservative echo chamber has a role but it's mostly been to solidify and energize the white authoritarian base of the gop.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:09 PM
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I think it’s safe to say Clinton would have won if Fox News, Murdoch, and Limbaugh didn’t exist. Sure, Trump’s base eats up that propaganda, but his base didn’t put him over the top. He won the election because several thousand voters in the upper Midwest who voted for Obama either stayed home or voted for Trump in 2016. There are probably not very many authoritarian evangelical white people in that group. They’re going to vote R no matter what. It’s the swing voters who were influenced by the actual fake news from those media sources, along with Russian bots, who made the difference.

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Old 07-28-2019, 09:11 PM
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I think that deserves more blame. The conservative echo chamber has a role but it's mostly been to solidify and energize the white authoritarian base of the gop.
That conservative echo chamber does however have another quality: what the conservatives do not know can't hurt them. Conservative media does help Trump and conservative politicians thanks to what they omit telling their viewers.

I do remember recently a commentary of a Fox viewer that was surprised to find out that there was evidence of Trump's malfeasance in investigations like the Muller one.

The propagated ignorance then minimizes any desires from conservatives to demand the respect of silly things, like the rule of law [/sarcasm] if it goes against their leaders.

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/20...n-party/224328
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House Republicans decided to focus their strategy in questioning Mueller on the hazy alternative narrative generated by their loyal propagandists at Fox News. The result was a case study in the iron grip Fox has on the Republican Party during the Trump era.

Fox spent years poisoning the well for Mueller’s probe. The network’s commentators, led by Sean Hannity, told their audience that Trump and his associates were innocent victims of a sinister plot by “deep state” operatives trying to pull off a “soft coup.” Since Mueller concluded his work, Fox personalities have been diligently lying about what his report said and amping up calls to investigate the investigators. That coverage -- frequently echoed by Trump himself -- has shaped the opinions of Fox viewers on the Mueller investigation.

This years-long effort came to a head on Wednesday, with Hannity effectively dictating the GOP’s strategy in handling Mueller. The night before the hearings, he urged congressional Republicans to focus their attention not on the results of the investigation, but on the investigators. And that’s exactly what many of them did, using questions ripped from Hannity’s program to demand Mueller weigh in on the network’s conspiracy theories.
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The result was dizzying for those not fully versed in Fox’s peculiar obsessions. “I've paid decently close attention to the Russia / Mueller saga, but I don't know how you follow Nunes questioning unless you're deep into HannityLand,” The New York Times’ James Poniewozik commented at one point. “It's like the GOP is producing a superfan podcast.”

But House Republicans’ use of this “impenetrable dialect” demonstrates that rather than trying to educate a broader audience, they were speaking directly to Fox viewers steeped in “right-wing witch-hunt lore,” as The Washington Post’s Nicole Hemmer noted. “They were not there to investigate but to instigate, to rile up a base that had made up its mind about Mueller around the same time Trump did,” she concluded.

The base was apparently riled. As the network’s propagandists cheered on the GOP legislators and announced that the hearing had failed, Trump, an inveterate Fox watcher who has frequently parroted the network’s anti-Mueller conspiracy theories, spent Wednesday afternoon and evening and Thursday morning tweeting out a dozen quotes and clips from the network’s programs and thanking its hosts and guests for supporting him.

Hannity himself was thrilled with House Republicans’ “amazing” performance, and made time during his opening monologue to take a bow for his own work in promoting the narrative they spent the day channeling.
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By Thursday morning, the network with the ear of the president and his party had moved on to floating pardons for “some of those who paid the price for knowing him” while urging an investigation into “the role of President Obama” in the Russia probe.
In the past I commented that it was bad to have a press that served as a stenographer for a president, (as the press (not just the conservative one) did with Bush on the lead up to war in Iraq) but it can get worse if the president of the US and Republican congress people are the stenographers of conservative media.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 07-28-2019 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
That conservative echo chamber does however have another quality: what the conservatives do not know can't hurt them. Conservative media does help Trump and conservative politicians thanks to what they omit telling their viewers.

I do remember recently a commentary of a Fox viewer that was surprised to find out that there was evidence of Trump's malfeasance in investigations like the Muller one.

The propagated ignorance then minimizes any desires from conservatives to demand the respect of silly things, like the rule of law [/sarcasm] if it goes against their leaders.

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/20...n-party/224328






In the past I commented that it was bad to have a press that served as a stenographer for a president, (as the press (not just the conservative one) did with Bush on the lead up to war in Iraq) but it can get worse if the president of the US and Republican congress people are the stenographers of conservative media.
I suppose the irony of complaining about biased reporting from conservatives while quoting media matters was lost on you.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:25 PM
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I suppose the irony of complaining about biased reporting from conservatives while quoting media matters was lost on you.
Nope, because what you are doing here is the fallacy of shooting the messenger, a very easy way to avoid dealing with what they report, so their points stand.

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Old 07-28-2019, 09:25 PM
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Have you suspected them of being biased for some time as well?
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:15 PM
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I'm kept up at night by sad, torturous thoughts of my sweet sweet dog's last day on earth. Conservative media is very far down my list of actual, everyday sleep loss. They are more of a wide-awake nightmare issue.
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Old 07-28-2019, 11:24 PM
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I think it’s safe to say Clinton would have won if Fox News, Murdoch, and Limbaugh didn’t exist. Sure, Trump’s base eats up that propaganda, but his base didn’t put him over the top. He won the election because several thousand voters in the upper Midwest who voted for Obama either stayed home or voted for Trump in 2016. There are probably not very many authoritarian evangelical white people in that group. They’re going to vote R no matter what. It’s the swing voters who were influenced by the actual fake news from those media sources, along with Russian bots, who made the difference.
Yes, I think this is very true. People always talk about "Trump" voters as if they were a single, monolithic demographic, but probably it was a specific, limited sub-set in those key states who put him over the top. (The rest are either knee-jerks who always vote Republican no matter what or simply unprincipled opportunists.) I bet, too, that this sub-set doesn't care that Trump is racist and misogynist, because that was obvious from the start, so for those who want to get rid of Trump, bemoaning his racism and misogyny is a waste of time. Instead, that small sub-set of his voters simply fell for Trump's bullshit act of being a populist outsider successful businessman, etc., who would "drain the swamp" -- all of it a bogus performance, just like on The Apprentice. That's the lie which conservative media most wants to perpetuate. The way to defeat Trump in 2020 is to aggressively expose that lie and his venal corruption to that small demographic (the rest of his supporters--the knee-jerks, the ethno-nationalists, and the opportunists--don't care that he's a corrupt fake). Trump won in 2016 because the mainstream media focused almost entirely on his racism and offensive statements (which don't bother any of his voters), rather than reveal that he's just a fake. If they do the same thing in 2020, he will win again, thanks to the Russians and the echo chamber.
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Old 07-28-2019, 11:41 PM
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No, Conservative ACTIONS are what keep us up at night. The hate, the shitting all over the poor, non-white people, the environment, the hypocritical and harmful laws they pass, etc.
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:29 AM
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And I’m asking whether those actions are primarily spurred by “people being lied to,” and if they’d be decent people (or at least more quiet) if it weren’t for the “lies.”
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:28 AM
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I think you are confusing cause and effect. Fox News and media like Rush Limbaugh came into existence because there was a large underserved market. Most MSM slants to the left. Rush and Fox News and AM talk radio recognized that and created a product that addressed that market. They would not have succeeded if the market did not already exist.

All this stuff about lies and racism is self-serving cherry-picking by the left, and sour grapes at losing elections.

Regards,
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:32 AM
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All this stuff about lies and racism is self-serving cherry-picking by the left, and sour grapes at losing elections.
Do you really, truly believe that "all" accusations of lies and racism on the right are "self-serving cherry-picking" by the left? Or is this just hyperbole?
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:34 AM
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In answer to the OP: yes, if there were no right-wing news media outlets, blogs, books or lectures, it'd be easier for liberals to get their goals achieved.

Not sure they'd sleep better at night, as leftist factional infighting would get much noisier than it is now.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:01 AM
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I think you are confusing cause and effect. Fox News and media like Rush Limbaugh came into existence because there was a large underserved market. Most MSM slants to the left. Rush and Fox News and AM talk radio recognized that and created a product that addressed that market. They would not have succeeded if the market did not already exist.


And you're ignoring the feedback effects that the media has. Yes, the conservative market was underserved at that time. I was part of that market, then.

But it's also clear that the new conservative media has been instrumental in pushing most conservative voters farther and farther right over time. The conservative movement as it exists now is virtually unrecognizable to me now. It supports virtually none of the values I actually have, values that I had back then.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:08 AM
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I think you are confusing cause and effect. Fox News and media like Rush Limbaugh came into existence because there was a large underserved market. Most MSM slants to the left. Rush and Fox News and AM talk radio recognized that and created a product that addressed that market. They would not have succeeded if the market did not already exist.

All this stuff about lies and racism is self-serving cherry-picking by the left, and sour grapes at losing elections.

Regards,
Shodan

The anti-vax mommy-blog movement came into existence because "the MSM" wasn't reporting on the dangers of vaccines and people were hungry for products that addressed that market, but that doesn't mean the existence of those blogs didn't make the situation a lot worse.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:57 AM
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Fox News and media like Rush Limbaugh came into existence because there was a large underserved market.
Yes, there always will be a market for manufactured self-aggrievement--Limbaugh et al have artfully exploited it into one of the biggest cash cows in media history.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:05 AM
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And you're ignoring the feedback effects that the media has. Yes, the conservative market was underserved at that time. I was part of that market, then.

But it's also clear that the new conservative media has been instrumental in pushing most conservative voters farther and farther right over time. The conservative movement as it exists now is virtually unrecognizable to me now. It supports virtually none of the values I actually have, values that I had back then.
And Democrats have gone further and further to the left. I don't think that can be blamed on the media.

Sure, there's a feedback loop. But the answer to the question in the OP is No, Fox News and AM radio are not the source. IMO.
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The anti-vax mommy-blog movement came into existence because "the MSM" wasn't reporting on the dangers of vaccines and people were hungry for products that addressed that market, but that doesn't mean the existence of those blogs didn't make the situation a lot worse.
This is kind of the thing I was talking about. Equating the entire conservative movement to a conspiracy theory rather misses the point. Because, you know, it's not.

And WADR and not speaking of you in particular, the attitude that conservative thought is nothing but conspiracy theories and racism and stupid is what made, and makes, conservative media appealing. Because unfortunately it is increasingly rare to be able to discuss either liberal, or conservative, policies non-dismissively, with anyone who doesn't already buy into either.

I think it is a loss when one cannot discuss liberal policies with a conservative, nor conservative policies with a liberal. They are both trying to de-platform each other.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:11 AM
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This is kind of the thing I was talking about. Equating the entire conservative movement to a conspiracy theory rather misses the point. Because, you know, it's not.
Good thing I never said it was. I was merely pointing out that "there's a market for these ideas" doesn't justify opportunists pouncing on that market, nor does it absolve them of responsibility when those ideas spread. There was a market for anti-vax propaganda, but that doesn't mean Jenny McCarthy isn't a shitbag for giving that propaganda a celebrity endorsement and spreading it far and wide.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:33 AM
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And Democrats have gone further and further to the left. I don't think that can be blamed on the media.

See, that's a perfect example of how they've pushed you so far to the right, because to an unbiased observer, you're just repeating a talking point that is simply false. There were always a few Democrats who advocated for leftist positions, so that hasn't changed at all, but more importantly, the actual policy positions of the party have barely moved at all in my adult lifetime, and most of the actual movement has been away from the left. For instance, they are by far the more fiscally responsible party now, which used to be the standard conservative position. For another example, they actually implemented the ACA, which was modelled on a Republican healthcare plan that enshrined for-profit insurance companies as the center of a government healthcare plan. That's no way any honest argument can be made that this was "moving left".

They only look like they're moving "further and further to the left" because of how far you've moved to the right.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:40 AM
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the attitude that conservative thought is nothing but conspiracy theories and racism and stupid is what made, and makes, conservative media appealing.


It should also be pointed out that, yes, while not all conservative thought is conspiracy theories, racism and stupid, it's also clear that almost everything new in conservative thought over the last 10-20 years or so, those things that distinguish them from the GOP of the 80s and 90s, is conspiracy theories, racism and stupid. John McCain made of point of shutting down Birtherism crap; Trump and the modern GOP embrace Birtherism, and more. There were always racists in the party, but they tried to keep it on the down-low. Now, we have the President telling immigrant citizens to "go back where they came from". And Stupid? Well, fuck, where to even start?
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Old 07-29-2019, 02:14 PM
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It should also be pointed out that, yes, while not all conservative thought is conspiracy theories, racism and stupid, it's also clear that almost everything new in conservative thought over the last 10-20 years or so, those things that distinguish them from the GOP of the 80s and 90s, is conspiracy theories, racism and stupid.
As I mentioned, there is a reason why conservative media has found an audience.

'Everything in conservative thought for the last twenty years is conspiracy theories, racist, and stupid' does not really lead to informed debate, and does not IMO inform the public.

Regards,
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:39 PM
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As I mentioned, there is a reason why conservative media has found an audience.

'Everything in conservative thought for the last twenty years is conspiracy theories, racist, and stupid' does not really lead to informed debate, and does not IMO inform the public.

Regards,
Shodan
As the debates on climate change and birtherism showed, that conservative audience has been manipulated to fall for the dumbest conspiracies.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2018/1...gate-violence/
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The mystery begins to unravel, though, if we look a sample of the beliefs required of the modern conservative.

To be a modern conservative, you must believe that there is a grand conspiracy of scientists all around the world promote a hoax about global warming and climate change in exchange for….well, it’s not entirely clear what. Grant funding? Payoff by global Marxists? Who knows? It’s pretty bizarre, but tens of millions of American conservatives believe it.

To be a modern conservative is to believe that thousands of desperate Central American migrants are being paid by George Soros–himself a symbol and often a substitute code word for Jews, also coded as “globalists” in mainstream Republican rhetoric–to come to the United States to vote illegally and disrupt the midterm elections.

To be a modern conservative is to believe in a ludicrous, grandiose conspiracy of tens of thousands of organizers, undocumented people and elections officials to implement voter impersonation fraud at scale.

To be a modern conservative is to believe that there is a byzantine “Deep State” conspiracy involving the highest levels of law enforcement, including well-respected members of both parties, to entrap and frame the president–rather than the much more obvious conclusion that the president and his associates are guilty of wide-ranging wrongdoing on multiple fronts.

To be a modern conservative is to believe that white men face the most discrimination of any group in the country, that older white conservatives in the South are the least racist people in America, and that liberal whites are keeping people of color down on what they call the “Democrat plantation” by providing social services not to make up for institutional prejudice, but in a unbreakable and corrupt bargain for votes.

To be a modern conservative is to believe that all of the collected mainstream media are corrupted Democratic campaign operatives, while Fox News is singledhandedly engaged in real journalism.
Quote:
To be a modern conservative, per majority opinion, is to believe that the last Democratic president was born outside of the United States and ineligible to be president.

And that doesn’t even touch the more outre conspiracies believed by significant minorities of conservatives, from Sandy Hook false flags to various versions of QAnon, pizzagate and much more.

The collective weight of these belief systems is massive and psychologically destabilizing. It blares every day from the collective conservative media bubble in a 24/7 stream of Fox News broadcasts, Breitbart articles and Rush Limbaugh radio hours.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:26 PM
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I think you are confusing cause and effect. Fox News and media like Rush Limbaugh came into existence because there was a large underserved market. Most MSM slants to the left. Rush and Fox News and AM talk radio recognized that and created a product that addressed that market. They would not have succeeded if the market did not already exist.

All this stuff about lies and racism is self-serving cherry-picking by the left, and sour grapes at losing elections.

Regards,
Shodan
This is true in a sense, but also reveals the problem with people who make up the market for conservative media. You state that the mainstream media slants to the left. The reason for that is that reality slants to the left. Global warming and evolution are two of the big issues where reality and what conservatives believe are contradictory. If people want to hear that they can keep their coal mining jobs and keep burning hydrocarbons to prosperity while not damaging the environment, they’re burying their heads in the sand, not looking for real news.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:47 PM
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I think you are confusing cause and effect. Fox News and media like Rush Limbaugh came into existence because there was a large underserved market. Most MSM slants to the left. Rush and Fox News and AM talk radio recognized that and created a product that addressed that market. They would not have succeeded if the market did not already exist.

All this stuff about lies and racism is self-serving cherry-picking by the left, and sour grapes at losing elections.

Regards,
Shodan
Fox News and Limbaugh came into existence because Reagan guillotined the Fairness Doctrine.

Quote:
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As I mentioned, there is a reason why conservative media has found an audience.

'Everything in conservative thought for the last twenty years is conspiracy theories, racist, and stupid' does not really lead to informed debate, and does not IMO inform the public.

Regards,
Shodan
Talking with Flat Earthers doesn't really lead to informed debate and doesn't inform the public, either. If the vast majority of what conservatives blather on about is racist, stupid and just as wrong as the notion that the Earth is not a sphere... not my bummer.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:20 PM
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As the debates on climate change and birtherism showed, that conservative audience has been manipulated to fall for the dumbest conspiracies.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2018/1...gate-violence/
With unbiased and non-partisan articles like this in the media, one can scarcely imagine from where conservatives get the idea of media bias. I mean, who wouldn't trust a source like David Atkins to fairly and honestly outline conservative beliefs, right?
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:35 PM
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I bet he hardly wrote about Secretary Clinton's pizza-based sex racket at all!
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:21 PM
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As I mentioned, there is a reason why conservative media has found an audience.

'Everything in conservative thought for the last twenty years is conspiracy theories, racist, and stupid' does not really lead to informed debate, and does not IMO inform the public.

Regards,
Shodan


And this is another good example of what I'm on about. You completely blow past the part where I was a conservative voter for most of my life, until the stupidity took over the entire movement.

But you just ignore that, and try to score some "more reasonable than thou points". How about you actually take a minute to consider the possibility that you really are embracing the Party of Stupid, rather than just dismissing this as some kind of leftist bias?
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:21 PM
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With unbiased and non-partisan articles like this in the media, one can scarcely imagine from where conservatives get the idea of media bias. I mean, who wouldn't trust a source like David Atkins to fairly and honestly outline conservative beliefs, right?
Well, shooting the messenger again does not turn your sorry argument into a logical one.

Avoidance of the points made noticed, so they still stand.
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:39 PM
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And you're ignoring the feedback effects that the media has. Yes, the conservative market was underserved at that time. I was part of that market, then.

But it's also clear that the new conservative media has been instrumental in pushing most conservative voters farther and farther right over time. The conservative movement as it exists now is virtually unrecognizable to me now. It supports virtually none of the values I actually have, values that I had back then.
The statistics I've seen about the US point to the Left becoming more radical and the Right, comparatively, only moving a little further to the right.
Cite 1 and Cite 2.

The first graph in the second citation is interesting because it shows that the gap between Left and Right in 2008 is much smaller than the gap between Left and Left between 2008 and 2016.
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:02 AM
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Yes, there's a reason that conservative news found an audience. Conservatives couldn't handle unbiased news, so they had to create their own biased news.

If conservatives created less biased news, then you'd have a point that maybe the regular news was biased. But they didn't. They created conservative news.

They simply wanted reported to tell them what they wanted to hear.
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:27 AM
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The statistics I've seen about the US point to the Left becoming more radical and the Right, comparatively, only moving a little further to the right.
Cite 1 and Cite 2.

The first graph in the second citation is interesting because it shows that the gap between Left and Right in 2008 is much smaller than the gap between Left and Left between 2008 and 2016.
One will always wonder how a report that shows that the Democrats are still much closer to the center (First graph in the second cite) compared to the radicalization of the Republicans of today, and then the sources you rely on conclude that it is the opposite.

And the other research the first cite points at shows the Democrats becoming more active regarding the needy, race relations and immigration.

And that is supposed to be worse than seeing the Republicans become the party that tolerates helping the needy less, to ignore issues with race or become racist, and to become the darkness to immigrants and asylum seekers.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 07-30-2019 at 12:28 AM.
  #33  
Old 07-30-2019, 08:29 AM
Horatius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ale View Post
The statistics I've seen about the US point to the Left becoming more radical and the Right, comparatively, only moving a little further to the right.
Cite 1 and Cite 2.

The first graph in the second citation is interesting because it shows that the gap between Left and Right in 2008 is much smaller than the gap between Left and Left between 2008 and 2016.

Can't read the second cite, but that first one is telling:


Quote:
Pew asks, for example, whether poor people have it easy because they can get government benefits without doing anything in return. In 1994, 63% of Republicans agreed with this sentiment, as did 44% of Democrats.

This year, 65% of Republicans agreed — a 2-point increase — while just 18% of Democrats did — a 26-point drop.

Nearly two-thirds (65%) of Democrats used to believe that most people who want to get ahead can do so if they work hard. Today, just 45% of Democrats believe this. Among Republicans, the change was negligible — it went from 73% in 1994 to 77% today.

How about the question of whether racial discrimination is the "main reason many black people can't get ahead these days"?

In 1994, just 39% of Democrats and 26% of Republicans felt this way. That was 14 years before the U.S. elected a black president.

Now, after eight years of Obama in the White House, 64% of Democrats say racism is the main reason blacks can't get ahead, while 14% of Republicans do.

National defense?

Back in 1994, 44% of Republicans said the best way to secure peace was through military strength. Today, that figure is 53% — an increase of 9 points.

But on the Democratic side, the share who agreed with "peace through strength" dropped from 28% to 13% — a 15-point drop.

Pew also asked whether "corporations make too much profit." In 1994, the gap between Democrats and Republicans on this issue was 18 percentage points. Today, it's 30 points.

In this case, the entire increase in the gap came from Democrats. While 61% of them said in 1994 that corporations make too much money, 73% now feel that way. There's been no change on the Republicans side — it's remained at 43%.

Recognizing the reality of economic inequality and racial inequality is considered "far left extremism" by the right wing.

And if you think that's not just their bias showing, consider this gem:


Quote:
But on one big social issue, Republicans have become far more moderate over the years.

The Pew survey asks whether homosexuality should be discouraged by society. In 1994, 58% of Republicans and 42% of Democrats said it should. By 2017, the share of Republicans who felt that way dropped 21 points, in tandem with the decline among Democrats.

Yep, when the GOP starts agreeing that prejudice and inequality is bad, they're lauded as becoming "more moderate".

And this doesn't even touch the issues I talked about: What the party's various actual policies are. A poll about people's opinions on various social issues tells you very little about what kind of policies they'd accept to try to alleviate the problems they see.


If you don't "believe that most people who want to get ahead can do so if they work hard", how do you solve that problem? Well, you could take all the bourgeoisie out back and shoot them, or you could establish training programs in disadvantaged areas, and enact tax policies that encourage businesses to hire the people who graduate from these training programs.

If you think "corporations make too much profit", you could nationalize them all, and drive that profit into government coffers. Or, you could increase the corporate tax rate, eliminate obsolete tax deductions, re-direct government contracts to less-profitable businesses, or adjust corporate laws to encourage the growth of mom-and-pop type businesses.

What you identify as problems aren't what make you an "extremist", it's the solutions you propose for those problems that make you an extremist.
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