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  #351  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
That opens up all cans of worms. It's rather easy to make a rational decision in regards to immigration when you can be emotionless.

Those other emotional based immigration cases would just need to be looked at separately.
It's not about emotion. It's about who we want to be as a country. Are we what we claim to be based on the ideals we were founded on, or are we ... something else now?
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  #352  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:18 PM
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I mentioned in another thread about a recent drive I made from the south suburbs of Chicago, through central Illinois to Indianapolis. Boy, full is an understatement. Heading south through Illinois every hundred or so miles a town would pop up out of nowhere, home to- I'm guessing- 2 or 3 thousand people. It was amazing. And don't get me started about this place I went through called Champaign-Urbana. I'm guessing again that that place must have had 100,000 people. And there it was, RIGHT in between Chicago and Indianapolis! Full to the brim we are.
I was thinking about this last night and I will encourage you to try this:

Please, stop in a few of those towns of around 2-3,000 people and find the town mayor or other leader. Inform him or her you represent the federal government and that they will in around 2 months, be the delivery point of about 100 refugees. All non english speaking and from a vastly different culture. Inform him/her that town will be REQUIRED to not only take them in but provide housing, food, sanitation, medical care, jobs, plus schooling for any children.

Also inform him/her that in another year, or maybe less, there will be another busload of another 100. Then another. Then another.

Just how will they take this news?
  #353  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:20 PM
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The USA would have a dropping population if it weren't for immigration.
Thing is we DO have immigration. LEGAL immigration where we bring in I dont know like a million people a year. My next door neighbors from the Phillipines are immigrants like that.

We dont need to take in everyone. We can have borders and decide who gets let in or not.
  #354  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:20 PM
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I was thinking about this last night and I will encourage you to try this:

Please, stop in a few of those towns of around 2-3,000 people and find the town mayor or other leader. Inform him or her you represent the federal government and that they will in around 2 months, be the delivery point of about 100 refugees. All non english speaking and from a vastly different culture. Inform him/her that town will be REQUIRED to not only take them in but provide housing, food, sanitation, medical care, jobs, plus schooling for any children.

Also inform him/her that in another year, or maybe less, there will be another busload of another 100. Then another. Then another.

Just how will they take this news?
Why would you encourage him to go to a town full of strangers and lie to them?
  #355  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:33 PM
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Plenty of room for a million more people in Detroit alone.
I dont live there but from what I've seen I can agree. I see pictures and stories of many empty neighborhoods.
  #356  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:37 PM
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I was thinking about this last night and I will encourage you to try this:

Please, stop in a few of those towns of around 2-3,000 people and find the town mayor or other leader. Inform him or her you represent the federal government and that they will in around 2 months, be the delivery point of about 100 refugees. All non english speaking and from a vastly different culture. Inform him/her that town will be REQUIRED to not only take them in but provide housing, food, sanitation, medical care, jobs, plus schooling for any children.

Also inform him/her that in another year, or maybe less, there will be another busload of another 100. Then another. Then another.

Just how will they take this news?
Let us set up a ridiculous scenario designed to antagonize the target as much as possible, that has no basis in reality, then pretend to know what will happen next.
You sure showed us!

Last edited by Czarcasm; 08-16-2019 at 03:38 PM.
  #357  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:40 PM
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Yikes. Human life doesn't matter? We're just counting beans?
See the post directly above yours ...
  #358  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:40 PM
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Putting your obvious anger issues aside for the moment, I want you to know that I understand where you're coming from. I spent a week in Kansas City on business. I stayed in the Power & Light district and the client office was pleasant mile or so walk. It overlooked the cement pillar statue with the steer on top - monument to the local livestock industry, I assume. I enjoyed the brutal architecture of the city and the hospitality. What I enjoyed most, and has eerily stuck with me the longest, is the absolute absence of traffic in the downtown core even at the height of rush hour. I mean there were periods of time when I could not see cars for entire city blocks. I have photos.

So if that is your mindset, I can certainly appreciate that large coastal cities and more densely populated states are at least as big a shock to you as Kansas City rush hour was to me. I can't even say that I didn't enjoy the relative peace and quiet of a city that is so under-populated. However, I also observed that, entire office building stood completely empty and shuttered, the roads were not well maintained, the airport was a shambles, the kind of ambiance and abundance of culture (theater, museums, fine dining) that I enjoy in a large city was absent. So all in all, I'd say that Kansas City could do with a larger population and a better infrastructure to make it a more interesting place to visit. I guess that's what you like about living there. The fact that it doesn't necessarily attract the crowds like L.A., NYC, S.F, DC, etc...

That may well be a reasonable point of view to hold for you, coming from this perspective. It does not however, justify the angry opinion of, "Go Home! We're full!". It's just an ill informed and poorly reasoned opinion that sounds very much like one based on a xenophobic nationalist ideology.
If you would have driven out to the suburbs you would have seen how full we are getting. In my hometown of Overland Park houses for single family home have skyrocketed and almost all the new construction are apartments or condominiums. They tore down one golf course and built a massive apartment complex plus multi family homes. On Metcalf they tore down old buildings and are building apartments. Heck everywhere I look is apartments, apartments, apartments.

So while we dont currently have the homeless problem of other cities I can see we are barely keeping up.

Traffic is really getting bad and our mass transit options are limited.

Now could we keep expanding and keep slapping more apartments on farmland? I suppose. But thats getting to be more and more expensive plus you must also then expand services like water and sewers plus the new places are further from job centers.
  #359  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:44 PM
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It's not about emotion. It's about who we want to be as a country. Are we what we claim to be based on the ideals we were founded on, or are we ... something else now?
Yes, it is very much about emotion. And every bit of the current divisiveness that is our political parties, is ALL about emotion driven paranoia. Look "open borders!" Look , dying children!

We as a country know we want better, most can even see how to go about making it better. But all the rest would rather play the "not us", or "but they do it worse" or hyperbole wins the thread games.

No one, not a single one of you, are willing to put aside the political differences to come together. Now the politicians, they make back room deals all the time because its all just smoke and mirrors to their constituents. But oh no, not us, we have all swallowed their divide and conquer (or really not conquer but just keep us in power) pill.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 08-16-2019 at 03:45 PM.
  #360  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:47 PM
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Who is actively promoting the idea of "de facto open borders"?
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People who want to promote sanctuary policies and people who want to abolish ICE and people who want to ignore immigration law.
ICE didn't exist until 2003.

Did you think that before 2003 we had entirely open borders?
  #361  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:48 PM
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Let us set up a ridiculous scenario designed to antagonize the target as much as possible, that has no basis in reality, then pretend to know what will happen next.
You sure showed us!
Just trying to put some reality into a discussion. The writer said that on his drive south of Chicago there were all these small towns which he wanted to start dumping more refugees. I just wanted to ask people to think about it.

BTW, sure. most small towns can handle a family or 2. They even welcome them. But we are talking millions at the borders and even more millions wanting to try and come across.
  #362  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:50 PM
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No one, not a single one of you, are willing to put aside the political differences to come together.
Fence-sitting trash talk from those with no real solutions. Come together where? Which "political" differences do you propose each side put aside? What outcome should both sides strive for?
  #363  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:50 PM
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I was thinking about this last night and I will encourage you to try this:

Please, stop in a few of those towns of around 2-3,000 people and find the town mayor or other leader. Inform him or her you represent the federal government and that they will in around 2 months, be the delivery point of about 100 refugees. All non english speaking and from a vastly different culture. Inform him/her that town will be REQUIRED to not only take them in but provide housing, food, sanitation, medical care, jobs, plus schooling for any children.

Also inform him/her that in another year, or maybe less, there will be another busload of another 100. Then another. Then another.

Just how will they take this news?
You might try stopping in some of the towns of around that size around here and finding out how they react to having long-term valued farm workers hauled away in handcuffs.
  #364  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:53 PM
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I was thinking about this last night and I will encourage you to try this:

Please, stop in a few of those towns of around 2-3,000 people and find the town mayor or other leader. Inform him or her you represent the federal government and ...
Mine was a response to your ludicrous claim that America was full. Not is it only not full, it is not even close.
Now, you asked what I think about your crazy hypothetical scenario. Hmm. What would Illinois farmers think about a federal agent coming to town and telling them what to do? I'll go way out on a limb and guess that they wouldn't like it.
Now, in reality, the feds (Trump) have told Illinois farmers that their soybeans are going to be much more expensive to export. I'm curious to see their reaction to that. We won't know until we all get a say in 2020.
  #365  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:55 PM
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Fence-sitting trash talk from those with no real solutions. Come together where? Which "political" differences do you propose each side put aside? What outcome should both sides strive for?
The economically feasible ones. Like cutting costs, and/or raising taxes.
  #366  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:01 PM
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The economically feasible ones. Like cutting costs, and/or raising taxes.
Woah! Let's not get into too much detail, dude!

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  #367  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:32 PM
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...he wanted to start dumping more refugees.
When it comes to people fleeing war and persecution - like ISIS murdering people just because they are Christians, among other atrocities - do you really have to use language that evokes images of those people being human garbage?
  #368  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:57 PM
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Mine was a response to your ludicrous claim that America was full. Not is it only not full, it is not even close.
Now, you asked what I think about your crazy hypothetical scenario. Hmm. What would Illinois farmers think about a federal agent coming to town and telling them what to do? I'll go way out on a limb and guess that they wouldn't like it.
Now, in reality, the feds (Trump) have told Illinois farmers that their soybeans are going to be much more expensive to export. I'm curious to see their reaction to that. We won't know until we all get a say in 2020.
Not try in changing the subject. So your saying those small towns will have no problem taking in 100 new immigrants? Then soon another 100? Then another 100?

I really dont think you have walked around and actually talked to people and found out there feelings.
  #369  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:27 PM
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Not try in changing the subject. So your saying those small towns will have no problem taking in 100 new immigrants? Then soon another 100? Then another 100?

I really dont think you have walked around and actually talked to people and found out there feelings.
[Eyegor]Where feelings?[/Eyegor]
  #370  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:32 PM
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Not try in changing the subject. So your saying those small towns will have no problem taking in 100 new immigrants? Then soon another 100? Then another 100?

I really dont think you have walked around and actually talked to people and found out there feelings.
Would these towns you’re talking about also object to white, English speaking people moving in?
  #371  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:37 PM
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Would these towns you’re talking about also object to white, English speaking people moving in?
Anecdote.... I get to visit a lot of little towns in Missouri (which is right next to Kansas, you know) and I've made a game of seeing not if, but how many confederate flags I see as I'm driving though.
  #372  
Old 08-16-2019, 06:15 PM
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Not try in changing the subject. So your saying those small towns will have no problem taking in 100 new immigrants? Then soon another 100? Then another 100?

I really dont think you have walked around and actually talked to people and found out there feelings.
Maybe they'd replace the white kids who moved away.
I can imagine what the discussion would be if we were debating relaxing the old restrictive immigration laws. "Imagines what would happen when the Chinese and Indians come streaming in."

What happened? Silicon Valley happened. Billions or trillions of dollars of new wealth happened.
  #373  
Old 08-16-2019, 06:18 PM
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What happened? Silicon Valley happened. Billions or trillions of dollars of new wealth happened.
More importantly, our cuisine improved.
  #374  
Old 08-17-2019, 08:33 AM
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Would these towns you’re talking about also object to white, English speaking people moving in?
It depends.

There was a place where just that happened. Sort of. In Potsville Iowa. Some orthodox jews from isreal and some from orthodox communities in New York, moved into a small Iowa town where they bought a local meat packing plant and turned it into a kosher plant. Now the locals were open to them but the problem here was the jews had a different culture with their black robes, beards, and different diets and such plus had never lived in a similar community where they are expected to mingle and be friendly with neighbors. Top it all off they made a point of isolating themselves (ex. kids went to a private school and no mingling in scouts, sports, or clubs) so had almost no contact with locals. Locals would try to talk to their new neighbors but they were rebuffed. So yes, it can cause problems. Then the packing plant brought in many illegals to work and that lead to an ICE raid and many things changed. They did end up bringing in Somalian refugees.

An article on the raid.

From what I read about half the orthodox families moved away and those left made it a point to be more friendly and part of the community.
  #375  
Old 08-17-2019, 08:34 AM
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Anecdote.... I get to visit a lot of little towns in Missouri (which is right next to Kansas, you know) and I've made a game of seeing not if, but how many confederate flags I see as I'm driving though.
Yes, I have seen that to and I dont like it.
  #376  
Old 08-17-2019, 09:00 AM
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It depends.

There was a place where just that happened. Sort of. In Potsville Iowa. Some orthodox jews from isreal and some from orthodox communities in New York, moved into a small Iowa town where they bought a local meat packing plant and turned it into a kosher plant. Now the locals were open to them but the problem here was the jews had a different culture with their black robes, beards, and different diets and such plus had never lived in a similar community where they are expected to mingle and be friendly with neighbors. Top it all off they made a point of isolating themselves (ex. kids went to a private school and no mingling in scouts, sports, or clubs) so had almost no contact with locals. Locals would try to talk to their new neighbors but they were rebuffed. So yes, it can cause problems. Then the packing plant brought in many illegals to work and that lead to an ICE raid and many things changed. They did end up bringing in Somalian refugees.

An article on the raid.

From what I read about half the orthodox families moved away and those left made it a point to be more friendly and part of the community.
It's not just immigrant migration that can cause tensions in smaller communities; migration of any kind can present challenges. What about the North Dakota boom towns that have sprung up over the past 25 years? There are similar complaints, not so much complaints about the lack of cultural assimilation, but about how once small and peaceful communities have been overrun by rowdy young men.

I won't deny that immigrant migration can can be a source of friction in the community, but that doesn't mean that America's full; it just means that people living in those communities have to find ways to bridge cultural divides. I agree that some of that responsibility lies with the migrants who are looking for a new home, but there's a shared responsibility to help them fit in.

Last edited by asahi; 08-17-2019 at 09:04 AM.
  #377  
Old 08-17-2019, 09:05 AM
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If you would have driven out to the suburbs you would have seen how full we are getting. In my hometown of Overland Park houses for single family home have skyrocketed and almost all the new construction are apartments or condominiums. They tore down one golf course and built a massive apartment complex plus multi family homes. On Metcalf they tore down old buildings and are building apartments. Heck everywhere I look is apartments, apartments, apartments.

So while we dont currently have the homeless problem of other cities I can see we are barely keeping up.
And you don't see this as a sign of economic growth and prosperity? It's my understanding that real estate developers are not in the business of loosing millions and millions of dollars. They don't build out of the goodness of their kind hearts. They build because there is money to be made. People who buy or rent these new properties are there because there are jobs available in the area. That's economic growth.

In my conversations with the Kansas City clients, they observed the same as you but most of them took it as a positive sign of growth in the metro area. Nobody loved the idea of more traffic and that's a problem they all acknowledged that needs solving, along with other infrastructure improvements. But most took pride in the fact that their part of "fly over country" was showing signs of economic growth and revitalization.

I personally, would love to see those beautiful office buildings in downtown K.C. full and thriving instead of being fully shuttered. They deserve to be maintained and enjoyed.

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Traffic is really getting bad and our mass transit options are limited.

Now could we keep expanding and keep slapping more apartments on farmland? I suppose. But thats getting to be more and more expensive plus you must also then expand services like water and sewers plus the new places are further from job centers.
This is an infrastructure problem across the entire nation and improving it would benefit everyone and contribute to the economy. I don't see it as a problem caused by immigration.
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  #378  
Old 08-17-2019, 09:58 AM
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In my hometown of Overland Park houses for single family home have skyrocketed and almost all the new construction are apartments or condominiums. They tore down one golf course and built a massive apartment complex plus multi family homes. On Metcalf they tore down old buildings and are building apartments. Heck everywhere I look is apartments, apartments, apartments.

So while we dont currently have the homeless problem of other cities I can see we are barely keeping up.

Traffic is really getting bad and our mass transit options are limited.
Your argument in this thread is that we as a country already have too many people and therefore we shouldn't accept more immigrants. You are using your hometown of Overland Park as an example of how increased population is putting a burden on housing and infrastructure.

I'm looking at the numbers for Johnson County, where Overland Park is located. As of 2017, JoCo had a population of just under 600,000. This makes it the most populous county in the state. But there were just 11,000 immigrants in the county.

So while your point about a booming population in your hometown causing problems is certainly well taken, attempting to use it an argument against immigration is not.
  #379  
Old 08-17-2019, 12:01 PM
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It depends.
Ok, so foreigners are not good neighbors. Jews are not good neighbors. Can I ask these towns if black Americans are okay neighbors? What would they say?
  #380  
Old 08-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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Not try in changing the subject. So your saying those small towns will have no problem taking in 100 new immigrants? Then soon another 100? Then another 100?

I really dont think you have walked around and actually talked to people and found out there feelings.
Yeah, you go to these small towns of 4,000, and you say, "You used to be a town of 5,000, but many of your younger generation went off to college and moved away. Many of your businesses are closed or are closing, your farmers are going bankrupt because they don't have anyone to work their fields, services are strained, as businesses can't hire employees to staff them. Would you like some help?"

If it turns out that they are too xenophobic to take the help of foreigners, then go to the next town. There are around 35,000 such towns around the US. If each just took 100, that's 3.5 million right there.

You keep thinking that we would just select a single town to dump everyone in, but that would not be the case at all. The US is much bigger than you give it credit for. We could let in millions of people a year, put them *all* into small towns, and still be adding less than 100 to each one of them.
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:11 PM
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People who make the "We have too many people already" forget that a declining population is adverse for an economy which borrowed extensively for repayment by younger generations...

Everything from municipal bonds, home values, and 401k in the US will be impacted by deflation. Even without that debt there is a age shift that dramatically impacts the quality of life for the young members who have to increase productivity to take care of the elderly.

Every single long term economic trend in US history has been fed by immigration or slavery. As an example Irish, Finnish, German and Italians all functioned as the influx of cheap labor for less desirable jobs...and they are all "hated" by nationalists at the time yet their descendants are now considered as the "white" and "acceptable" types now.

As this pattern has repeated several times in America I doubt that this will be the last time it happens. I just hope that we don't have to resort to a Holocaust for it to end this time (Yes Nordicism and Eugenics were an US export to Nazi Germany)
  #382  
Old 08-17-2019, 04:28 PM
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White supremacy is just one of the many sub-ideologies caused by the divide et impera strategy, which we all know works as pawn sacrifice so we could all further drive hate against each other and drive white people into cuckoldry and white guilt, rooted in the subversion of history by the one and only, the eternal kike (not jew, jews fundamentally no longer exist)

I am black dont hate or youre racist
  #383  
Old 08-17-2019, 04:50 PM
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White supremacy is just one of the many sub-ideologies caused by the divide et impera strategy, which we all know works as pawn sacrifice so we could all further drive hate against each other and drive white people into cuckoldry and white guilt, rooted in the subversion of history by the one and only, the eternal kike (not jew, jews fundamentally no longer exist)

I am black dont hate or youre racist
This is a warning for hate speech. It's also a banning.

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  #384  
Old 08-17-2019, 06:08 PM
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I But the US has come to a point we can NOT take any more. WE ARE FULL!
Just tripped across this, which seems relevant:

‘This will be catastrophic’: Maine families face elder boom, worker shortage in preview of nation’s future

Quote:
Janet Flaherty got an alarming call last October from the agency tasked with coordinating in-home care for her 82-year-old mother. It could no longer send her mom’s home caretaker. It knew of no other aides who could care for her mother, either.

Flaherty’s mother, Caroline, has for two years qualified for in-home care paid for by the state’s Medicaid program. But the agency could not find someone to hire amid a severe shortage of workers that has crippled facilities for seniors across the state. [ . . . ]

two slow-moving demographic forces — the growth of the retirement population and a simultaneous decline in young workers — that have been exacerbated by a national worker shortage [ . . . ]

“As the oldest state, Maine is the tip of the spear — but it foreshadows what is to come for the entire country.”

Last year, Maine crossed a crucial aging milestone: A fifth of its population is older than 65, which meets the definition of “super-aged,” according to the World Bank.

By 2026, Maine will be joined by more than 15 other states, according to Fitch Ratings, including Vermont and New Hampshire, Maine’s neighbors in the Northeast; Montana; Delaware; West Virginia; Wisconsin; and Pennsylvania. More than a dozen more will meet that criterion by 2030.
  #385  
Old 08-17-2019, 06:19 PM
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nm, wrong thread

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  #386  
Old Today, 10:47 AM
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Location: Harlem, New York, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I was thinking about this last night and I will encourage you to try this:

Please, stop in a few of those towns of around 2-3,000 people and find the town mayor or other leader. Inform him or her you represent the federal government and that they will in around 2 months, be the delivery point of about 100 refugees. All non english speaking and from a vastly different culture. Inform him/her that town will be REQUIRED to not only take them in but provide housing, food, sanitation, medical care, jobs, plus schooling for any children.

Also inform him/her that in another year, or maybe less, there will be another busload of another 100. Then another. Then another.

Just how will they take this news?
"Yay, more people means more jobs for all of us, to build their houses, sell them food and gasoline, and provide additional tax revenue!" Maybe that?
  #387  
Old Today, 12:26 PM
Velocity is online now
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
"Yay, more people means more jobs for all of us, to build their houses, sell them food and gasoline, and provide additional tax revenue!" Maybe that?
Doubtful. I've worked with refugees in AmeriCorps; I'd be hard-pressed to name a small town that would respond this way.

Last edited by Velocity; Today at 12:28 PM.
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