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  #51  
Old 08-14-2019, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Trancephalic View Post
People tend not to realize that pre-MCU, Iron Man was B-tier Marvel at best.
Maybe the character had faded in the nineties. But he was certainly a major character during the late seventies and early eighties when you had Michelinie, Layton, and Romita doing his series.
  #52  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jackdavinci View Post
Better writing, casting, marketing. Effects are better and cheaper. And thereís better penetration into the international market, so the investment is less risky. Plus maybe a little bit of technology in general being more popular, and multiculturalism.
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Also, they entered into the MCU with a plan to make a pile of movies, and signed actors to multiple-movie contracts, so all the parts of the organization had a vested interest in making sure everything worked, from the writing to the casting, directing, special effects, continuity... That's also why the LOTR movies worked out so well. They were really one, big, 12-hour movie. The Avengers saga is like one big 24-hour movie.
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Which is, I think, part of why the MCU movies have done so well (and as has been already mentioned) -- I think that they have done a tremendous job with casting the roles, and finding actors who have really inhabited the roles and made the characters their own.
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Originally Posted by Mahaloth View Post
- casting, casting, casting. Almost every single hero is correct cast.
...so I think its fair to add Sarah Finn, Casting Director who cast almost every actor in the MCU to the list of things that have made these movies such a success.
  #53  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
I think a better question is, why did the execs back in the day figure out that superhero movies could be wildly successful? Superman (1978) was a huge hit, but no one thought to follow it up with a Batman or Wonder Woman movie. Instead they just kept making more Superman movies, each one doing worse than the one before it. Same thing with Batman (1989). Huge hit, but they didn't bother to make a non-Batman movie until 1997 (Steel).
I think part of the issues is that after the '78 Superman, the studio execs said, "Ok..that went well...let's think about doing another. Anyone got any good story ideas? Oh, and we made a pile of cash off of it, but we can make even more if we slash the budget by a third to a half."

In the MCU, someone had a general idea of where the whole thing was heading from Day 1, or at least made sure that follow-on movies made sense to a greater overall narrative, and didn't skimp on budgeting on anything.
  #54  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:05 AM
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I think that Thor: The Dark World was probably the weakest of the MCU movies, but I'll agree that they definitely learned lessons from the first one, and applied those lessons. In the first Thor movie, they saw that Hemsworth and Hiddleston had great chemistry together, and so for the second one, they put in lots of interaction between them, which worked great. I don't think that it was enough to make the movie as a whole great, but that one part of it certainly worked very well.

Similarly with the two Ant-Man movies. Plan A for Ant-Man and the Wasp had to have been to base the movie on the interactions between the two title characters. But while they were both fine in their roles individually, they had absolutely no chemistry with each other. So what did they give us in Ant-Man and the Wasp? A whole lot of interaction between Lang and his daughter, and a whole lot between Hope and her father, both of which were great.
  #55  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:42 PM
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Surely, Spider-Man is at least as iconic as Captain America?
In most of the world, as iconic and had a better image pre-MCU, not being linked to America rah-rah-ism. Once upon a time, I was in a Barcelona Comic Book Week which had seen several special releases from Marvel's Spanish publisher (as usual), and these included a couple that Stan Lee was surprised weren't working (one of them wasn't even being bought by the biggest collectors, since we considered it directly and enormously offensive*); he was also surprised that Captain America didn't sell well at all (he was paired up with Thor, and people bought those books because of Simonson's Thor; Cap by himself couldn't have sold lollipops in front of a school). Watching the Spanish editors try to explain it in English with correct grammar rather than just pull their hair out in cussy Spanish was, ah, interesting. Lee finally got it but it took a while.

Note that the MCU's Cap is nowhere near as much of a political bore as the comic-book Cap was for decades.



* Wolverine in the Spanish Civil War. "Directly and enormously offensive" is an eufemism.
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Last edited by Nava; 08-15-2019 at 01:47 PM.
  #56  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
The characters behave like real people would.
This made me nod, because it's exactly what I said to Bob Trole back in the early sixties. He was wondering aloud why I liked Spider-Man, "cuz he's just a kid, and he's got problems..."
"Exactly! Spider-Man is a real person with real problems!"

As life turned out, the same rationale also works for why, fifty years later, I prefer Marvel movies to DC movies. And Spidey's neuroses to Supe's flatter affect.

I gotta find Bob and tell him!

Last edited by digs; 08-15-2019 at 11:02 PM.
  #57  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Trancephalic View Post
Incorrect, Iron Man was not the first MCU film. That distinction belongs to the second Incredible Hulk film (and even then that particular film vaguely implies the first one sorta maybe counts).
No way, Iron Man came out first.
  #58  
Old 08-16-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
In most of the world, as iconic and had a better image pre-MCU, not being linked to America rah-rah-ism. Once upon a time, I was in a Barcelona Comic Book Week which had seen several special releases from Marvel's Spanish publisher (as usual), and these included a couple that Stan Lee was surprised weren't working (one of them wasn't even being bought by the biggest collectors, since we considered it directly and enormously offensive*); he was also surprised that Captain America didn't sell well at all (he was paired up with Thor, and people bought those books because of Simonson's Thor; Cap by himself couldn't have sold lollipops in front of a school). Watching the Spanish editors try to explain it in English with correct grammar rather than just pull their hair out in cussy Spanish was, ah, interesting. Lee finally got it but it took a while.

Note that the MCU's Cap is nowhere near as much of a political bore as the comic-book Cap was for decades.



* Wolverine in the Spanish Civil War. "Directly and enormously offensive" is an eufemism.
Exactly. MCU Cap is my fave Avenger and set of movies. ...comic-books? I think I've bought ONE Cap comic in my life and that was a tie-in.
  #59  
Old 08-16-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by digs View Post
This made me nod, because it's exactly what I said to Bob Trole back in the early sixties. He was wondering aloud why I liked Spider-Man, "cuz he's just a kid, and he's got problems..."
"Exactly! Spider-Man is a real person with real problems!"

As life turned out, the same rationale also works for why, fifty years later, I prefer Marvel movies to DC movies.
See, I'd say the movies are the opposite. DC tried to go the 'realer' route and it didn't resonate. Marvel movie characters act like characters.
  #60  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:46 AM
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DC thought they were going the "realer" route, but they picked and chose only the parts of reality that suck.
  #61  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:00 PM
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DC thought they were going the "realer" route, but they picked and chose only the parts of reality that suck.
I think DC thought since the grittier "realer" Batman movies with Christian Bale were so successful that they should make their other character's movies in similar manner. Except Superman really isn't a "dark" character to begin with so it doesn't really work that well.

I think this year's "Shazam" movie was the first movie DC made in while that captured more of the light hearted nature people think about when they here DC Comics but even it had undercurrent of darkness that was distracting.
  #62  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:02 PM
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I'd say that DC's problem isn't that they're trying, and failing, to be more realistic; it's that they're trying, and failing, to be more adult. Sadist psycho killer Batman from BvS isn't more "realistic" than Adam West's take on the character, it's just a very juvenile conception of what sort of stories "grownups" like.
  #63  
Old Today, 12:21 PM
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My wife loves anything Marvel, including her favorite thing in the MCU, Agents of SHIELD (TV). Alternatively, she hates anything DC. She is 30.

It could be that the Marvel folks are better at making movies that appeal to women. She says that the DC stuff is too dark, and they hyper sexualize the women in them. The Joker's girlfriend was "like a MDMA-sadist-whore" - her words, not mine. She loves Agent May from SHIELD and Black Widow. Those characters resonate with her way more than Wonder Woman. She hated that one too. "God dammit why won't Kirk let her fight any? Isn't she supposed to be some sort of super hero?" - Her entertaining words, not mine. She is fun to watch movies with.
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  #64  
Old Today, 12:41 PM
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Eh, "Kirk" was a man of 1918, and Diana was the first superbeing his world had ever encountered. I'm willing to grant that it'd take him a while to get used to the idea, and really, he came around admirably quickly.

And while "MDMA-sadist-whore" might be an apt description of Harley Quin, I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that Black Widow was "not hyper sexualized".
  #65  
Old Today, 01:56 PM
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Eh, "Kirk" was a man of 1918, and Diana was the first superbeing his world had ever encountered. I'm willing to grant that it'd take him a while to get used to the idea, and really, he came around admirably quickly.

And while "MDMA-sadist-whore" might be an apt description of Harley Quin, I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that Black Widow was "not hyper sexualized".
See I would think the same, what is the difference? To her, they are blatantly different. Maybe its the application of the character. I see them sort of the same, but not really if I'm being honest. To my observation watching the movies, they (the super awesome super hero friends) treat Black Widow differently than Harley Quinn is treated by her contemporaries.

I am not a woman, so my opinion probably is way less interesting and informed than a woman's opinion on the topic. To my wife though, there is a stark (ha) difference.
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  #66  
Old Today, 02:36 PM
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I think DC thought since the grittier "realer" Batman movies with Christian Bale were so successful that they should make their other character's movies in similar manner. Except Superman really isn't a "dark" character to begin with so it doesn't really work that well.
Comic book films seem like they have struggled with how "dark" and "grounded" vs how "fun" and "campy" they want to be. It's like zombies. One the one hand, the concept civilization collapsing due to the dead rising and killing everyone (turning them into more zombies) while bands of survivors fight each other for basic needs is terrifying. OTOH, it's also ridiculous.

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  #67  
Old Today, 03:43 PM
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I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that Black Widow was "not hyper sexualized".
Because she wasn't? She was shown as capable of using sexiness as a tool, but "hyper-sexualized"? Not at all.
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