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  #1551  
Old 07-29-2019, 08:35 AM
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So, NI declares independence (while retaining allegiance to the Crown for old times' sake), immediately joins the EU and adopts the Euro, and keeps an open border and chill with Eire, rather than hold hands with the UK like Thelma and Louise driving off the cliff?
Independence isn't on the cards. NI is not a viable sovereign state, and more importantly, no-one in NI wants independence as such. The options are re-unification with Ireland, or continued union with GB.

It is certainly possible that the shock of No Deal Brexit and the resulting impositions and general clusterfuckery tilts the balance of opinion in NI towards re-unification with Ireland. Continued membership of the EU is a pretty big incentive and there will certainly be a great deal of disillusionment with the UK government. However, it is making a very definite choice and there would be a substantial majority who were unhappy with the decision if and when it were made - which certainly wouldn't happen immediately as it would have to happen through some sort of referendum/election/deliberative assembly.

But broadly, No Deal does imperil NI's place in the UK.
  #1552  
Old 07-29-2019, 08:36 AM
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So, NI declares independence (while retaining allegiance to the Crown for old times' sake), immediately joins the EU and adopts the Euro, and keeps an open border and chill with Eire, rather than hold hands with the UK like Thelma and Louise driving off the cliff?
No, joining the EU cannot be done instantly. It's a long and complex process.

The only way it could be done reasonably quickly would be for NI to give up its own government and become part of the Republic of Ireland. And there is absolutely no way they will ever do that.
  #1553  
Old 07-29-2019, 08:50 AM
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No, joining the EU cannot be done instantly. It's a long and complex process.

The only way it could be done reasonably quickly would be for NI to give up its own government and become part of the Republic of Ireland. And there is absolutely no way they will ever do that.
"No way" seems to ignore that some of the people of Northern Ireland have been pushing quite hard to do exactly that since the partition.

It's unlikely, but it's more likely than it's been since 1609. I don't think that's an exaggeration. And that fact, assuming it's correct, is going to be a strong impetus to those who have been working towards it by fair means and / or by foul.
  #1554  
Old 07-29-2019, 09:53 AM
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"No way" seems to ignore that some of the people of Northern Ireland have been pushing quite hard to do exactly that since the partition.
The point is that it's "some of the people". Other people are fanatically opposed to it, to the point of violence.

In March 2019 the Irish Times commissioned an opinion poll on reunification.

If there was referendum on unity with the Republic now, would you vote yes for unity, or no against?
Yes 32%
No 45%
Don't know 23%
  #1555  
Old 07-29-2019, 10:29 AM
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Thanks. I wonder what the mechanism would be? What officials will start to physically build border infrastructure -- walls and such? ISTM that the motivation from local contractors and builders will be to boycott such efforts.
In the short term, it'll be chaos - there will be few to no border controls of any materiality in place. Most people will keep doing what they're doing now until someone tells them not to, which means that once the government get around to implementing something it'll be the ordinary but clueless punters who get caught and fined/arrested, while the criminal elements will already have set up their much more organised illegal border crossing mechanisms.

In the long-term - God only knows. Squads of trained Riverdancers tapping along the border, for all I can guess.
  #1556  
Old 07-29-2019, 10:59 AM
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Would NI never consider independence on their own, without union with Eire? Perhaps a Celtic Common Market of sorts with them and an independent Scotland, and trade agreements with the remaining rump UK?

All the polls showing what they, or anyone, would do are based on assumptions that would no longer apply after a hard Brexit. They may not be definitive.
  #1557  
Old 07-29-2019, 11:40 AM
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Would NI never consider independence on their own, without union with Eire? Perhaps a Celtic Common Market of sorts with them and an independent Scotland, and trade agreements with the remaining rump UK?

All the polls showing what they, or anyone, would do are based on assumptions that would no longer apply after a hard Brexit. They may not be definitive.
The thing about NI is that it represents the overlap in the Venn diagram or "Ireland" and "the UK". It contains elements of both, and you could place it into either circle but it's not really a category on its own.

While I am not from NI I'm pretty sure there's very little interest in going it alone even if they had the economy for it (which they don't). Most people there want to be part of one country or the other, not a new one of their own. Hell, they can't even keep a functioning devolved government.

Last edited by Gyrate; 07-29-2019 at 11:40 AM.
  #1558  
Old 07-29-2019, 12:18 PM
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The point is that it's "some of the people". Other people are fanatically opposed to it, to the point of violence.



In March 2019 the Irish Times commissioned an opinion poll on reunification.



If there was referendum on unity with the Republic now, would you vote yes for unity, or no against?
Yes 32%

No 45%

Don't know 23%

So the question is, would NDB, a hard border, Westminster rule, trading chaos and the prospect of jumping into the loving embrace of the EU be enough to swing say 4% of votes from No to Yes while getting Don't Knows to break 3:2 for Yes? Or some variation on that?
Not a certainty, but very far from absolutely no way, I'd think.
Also, it'd be really interesting to see the trend in Don't Knows, because given this is NI 1/4 being unsure about the big political question of their lives seems high.
  #1559  
Old 07-29-2019, 01:09 PM
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Would NI never consider independence on their own, without union with Eire? Perhaps a Celtic Common Market of sorts with them and an independent Scotland, and trade agreements with the remaining rump UK?

All the polls showing what they, or anyone, would do are based on assumptions that would no longer apply after a hard Brexit. They may not be definitive.
Unless I’m misunderstanding something, declaring independence would just replace one hard border with two: the Republic of Ireland and the UK. Sure, they could negotiate some sort of trade agreements with Dublin and London, but those take time to work out, and in the meantime, NI would have WTO borders, with all the risks of instability and violence that entails.
  #1560  
Old 07-29-2019, 04:44 PM
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While an independent Northern Ireland, Scotland or even Wales might well take years to join the EU, I had been working on the assumption that they could (if they were willing to make the effort) join the EEA / EFTA quite quickly, which would be ‘good enough’ for most pro-EU people. Anyone familiar with the detail? This could be Scotland’s destiny in particular.

Completely unrelated - while a no-deal Brexit would have some bad consequences for Ireland north and south, there would be some relatively favourable mitigations. Specifically, at a personal level, any Irish person (and only Irish people) would have full citizen’s rights throughout the EU and the UK. That’s quite a useful right for someone who was interested in working for a multinational company with EU and UK operations. (I suppose in theory Irish citizens could be deprived of their rights in the UK, but it seems unlikely, and the northern Irish couldn’t be treated like this while NI remains in the UK).
  #1561  
Old 07-29-2019, 10:37 PM
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So the question is, would NDB, a hard border, Westminster rule, trading chaos and the prospect of jumping into the loving embrace of the EU be enough to swing say 4% of votes from No to Yes while getting Don't Knows to break 3:2 for Yes? Or some variation on that?
Not a certainty, but very far from absolutely no way, I'd think.
Also, it'd be really interesting to see the trend in Don't Knows, because given this is NI 1/4 being unsure about the big political question of their lives seems high.
For demographic reasons (higher birth-rate, lower propensity to emigrate) the Nationalist community in NI (i.e. those who tend to favour unification with the Republic has been slowly but steadily growing, relative to the Unionist community. So, even if a no-deal Brexit doesn't result in an immediate majority for unification, it may appear to bring that event closer - to accelerate the existing trend.

A poll conducted in NI in December 2018 asked respondents how they would vote on unification with the Republic, if the UK left the EU without a deal. The result was:

Would probably or certainly vote to remain in UK: 42%
Would probably or certainly vote to leave UK and join inited Ireland: 55%
Don't know/not sure: 3%

Corresponding figures if UK leaves EU with the Withdrawal Agreement as negotiated: 48%, 48%, 3%. If UK remains in EU: 60%, 29%, 11%.

Now, polls which ask people to say not what they would do immediately, but what they would do in the future after hypothetical events tend to be not completely reliable predictors of what they actually do, if and when those events occur. But, still, this does lend support to the view that a no-deal Brexit could materially increase support for a united Ireland, possibly to a decisive degree. And even if it wasn't an immediately decisive majority, if no-deal Brexit is painful for NI - and all models suggest that it will be very, very painful; much more so than for UK as a whole, which will be painful enough - then the boost to support for a united Ireland could be an enduring one. Demographic changes might do the rest in a surprisingly short time.

I think there's two factors at work here.

First, many people's assent to the continued union of GB and NI is conditional on, or sustained by, the high degree of integration with the rest of Ireland which shared EU membership makes possible. Therefore, reducing that degree of integration tends to weaken support for the union, and so imperil it.

Secondly, the whole Brexit project and the way it has taken over UK politics and driven it in a more and more extreme direction demonstrates that the UK political establishment has no regard for the wishes or interests of Northern Ireland. NI voted against Brexit, but is having Brexit forced on it anyway. All forms of Brexit are signficantly harmful to NI, but the UK has chosen to hew first of all to hard Brexit, and now apparently to no-deal Brexit, which injure NI much more than Brexit needs to. A favourable carve-out for NI, which is popular in NI and acceptable to the EU, is being rejected by English Brexiters because it offends their amour propre. Sincere unionists in NI are likely to must be angry, depressed and discouraged by this cavalier treatment, which they must see as a betrayal by those in Great Britain who claim to be unionists themselves.

Last edited by UDS; 07-29-2019 at 10:38 PM.
  #1562  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:11 AM
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The other point to bear in mind is that there have throughout been small dissident groups attempting terrorist acts against police officers and the like (another case just the other day). It doesn't need much in the way of official activity along the border line for such people to find new targets, and (eventually, maybe gradually) the cycle of repression/retaliation to start up all over again. It doesn't have to involve, or reflect the serious commitment of, many people for it to be a serious threat to peace.
  #1563  
Old 08-02-2019, 01:52 PM
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UK will not leave on 31 st October
A GE will be called
Labour needs SNP to form a coalition government and SNP will demand a second Independence Referendum in return
Scotland will vote Yes and become independent
Article 50 will be revoked
Ireland will reunify
Wales in 10 years will become independent
England will eventually leave the EU
  #1564  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:38 AM
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I believe Article 50 would have to be revoked in order for the UK not to leave on 31 October unless another extension is agreed, and another extension will not be agreed unless the UK come up with an actual plan, and the UK will not come up with an actual plan by 31 October. So either Article 50 gets revoked or the UK is out.
  #1565  
Old 08-07-2019, 03:14 AM
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I believe Article 50 would have to be revoked in order for the UK not to leave on 31 October unless another extension is agreed, and another extension will not be agreed unless the UK come up with an actual plan, and the UK will not come up with an actual plan by 31 October. So either Article 50 gets revoked or the UK is out.
I think that by now it should be really clear the if the UK wants to ask every single week for a week long extension until the end of times, each and every time the EU will happily concede.
  #1566  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:40 AM
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Johnson & co seem determined to crash out with no deal, and try to blame the EU.

There is no time for a general election before Oct 31, because Johnson can delay it.

If the majority in Parliament who oppose no-deal can find a way of taking control away from the government, there is some possibility of stopping it. Then there would have to be a new referendum. A government of national unity might work, but not with Corbyn in charge of Labour. It would need a drastic shake-up and a new political alignment under someone like Keir Starmer, and I'm not optimistic that this will happen.
  #1567  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:50 AM
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Good. God. Palmerson, Disreali, and Gladstone are spinning in their graves.

from CNN: DUDE apparently standing for Deliver, Unite, Defeat, Energize.

So, England has a new Prime Minister and about 3 months to negotiate a new/revised Brexit deal with Europe.

A deal done by Boris Johnson.

Living in interesting times, Britain; interesting times indeed.
Hey, I'd be perfectly happy with Evil Albion living in interesting times if they didn't do it in a way that means the rest of us pay for it. Kind of like when they come to Spain to get drunk, try and sometimes succeed to break their necks against our floors, and those other lovely activities they're sadly famous for.
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Last edited by Nava; 08-07-2019 at 04:50 AM.
  #1568  
Old 08-09-2019, 08:07 AM
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Johnson & co seem determined to crash out with no deal, and try to blame the EU.
Just as expected. It’s quite disconcerting seeing this government start to play out this narrative, considering that there being no room for re-negotiating withdrawal has been the EU’s position for months.

There’s even the possibility now that the government will time a general election to let no deal happen by default. That just seems far too despicable, and I can’t see this government surviving such an action. But I can’t see this government surviving full stop. I guess I don’t really understand Johnson’s personal game plan in wanting the premiership at this time.

OB
  #1569  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:03 AM
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...shorting the London housing market?
  #1570  
Old 08-09-2019, 11:38 AM
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The true motivation of Johnson, Rees-Mogg, and the rest is to prevent the EU closing down the tax havens where they keep their money, and clamping down on money laundering and shady deals by shady companies.

It really, really matters to them that they should not be forced to pay taxes like everyone else.

I don't know whether Rees-Mogg's hedge fund is shorting Brexit-related stocks, but many others are. Some people stand to gain a lot of money if a no-deal Brexit results in the British economy crashing, and likewise to lose money if it doesn't. Once the UK is out of the EU, they don't care what happens next or who is in power. If the pound and the UK economy crash, so much the better. The next government will have too much on their hands to deal with tax-havens. They may even have facilitate them to avoid the economy crashing altogether.


UK and territories are 'greatest enabler' of tax avoidance, study says

Quote:
The UK and its “corporate tax haven network” is by far the world’s greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance, research has claimed.

A third of British billionaires live in tax havens

... and of course, shady billionaires put money and resources into the Brexit referendum. They didn't do it out of idealism or charity.


From the Tax Justice Network:

Brexit and the future of tax havens
  #1571  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:40 PM
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This shit drives me up the wall, I feel like my country is falling apart and there's nothing I can do about it.
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  #1572  
Old 08-10-2019, 05:30 PM
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This shit drives me up the wall, I feel like my country is falling apart and there's nothing I can do about it.
Get in line, pal. Get in the fucking line...
  #1573  
Old 08-11-2019, 12:35 PM
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This shit drives me up the wall, I feel like my country is falling apart and there's nothing I can do about it.
Just accept that Britain has been going to Hell for the past 74 years and the current kerfuffle is simply part of an ongoing trend.
  #1574  
Old 08-11-2019, 01:39 PM
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The UKIP has a new leader - Dick Braine.
https://www.devonlive.com/news/uk-wo...-ukip-3197536?
  #1575  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:23 PM
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The UKIP has a new leader - Dick Braine.
https://www.devonlive.com/news/uk-wo...-ukip-3197536?
This is a satirical paper, yes ? You can't possibly have a stupid politician called Dick Brain. And if you can, he can't possibly be made head of anything, because hur hur hur. That's just lowbrow sitcom material, I'm sorry. I do not believe it.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:38 PM
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This is a satirical paper, yes ? You can't possibly have a stupid politician called Dick Brain. And if you can, he can't possibly be made head of anything, because hur hur hur. That's just lowbrow sitcom material, I'm sorry. I do not believe it.
It's true.
  #1577  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:10 PM
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Of course he and his party refer to him as "Richard". Only when he came to general notice by his elevation to the leadership of a party that is itself now merely the stuff of comedy, was the obvious joke made. And I think it will safely stick until they look for their next leader (I'd guess just before Christmas).
  #1578  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:17 PM
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That's the funniest thing I've read all month. I'm getting tired of being cooped up here all summer due to the heat but this livened my day up. Dickbrain!
  #1579  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:52 AM
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Just accept that Britain has been going to Hell for the past 74 years and the current kerfuffle is simply part of an ongoing trend.
I dunno, prior to 2015 things seemed pretty decent.
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  #1580  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:09 AM
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Nope, still don't believe it. Come on, own up, it's some elaborate Orson Welles-like hoax, is that it ?
  #1581  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:42 AM
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The fact that their new leader is named "Dick Braine" is probably one of the least ridiculous things about UKIP, tbh.
  #1582  
Old 08-16-2019, 10:05 PM
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The public decisively rejects Boris Johnson’s threat to crash the UK out of the EU without a deal, undermining his claim to have a mandate for the dramatic step, an exclusive poll for The Independent shows.

Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary – while 49 per cent urge him to either delay, cancel Brexit altogether, or stage a fresh referendum.
Meanwhile, Remain political parties are considering teaming up to oust Prime Minister Boris Johnson in order to stop a no-deal Brexit. However, there is not yet consensus on who should be the interim prime minister following Boris' ousting, with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn thinking it should be him, and others favoring a more unifying figure such as the "Father of the House" (longest continuously-serving MP) Kenneth Clarke, or the "Mother of the House" (longest continuously-serving female MP), Harriet Harman.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:42 AM
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Only 34 per cent of voters want the prime minister to carry out a no-deal Brexit on 31 October if necessary – while 49 per cent urge him to either delay, cancel Brexit altogether, or stage a fresh referendum.
Read the whole story, and you get 34% leave with no deal, 22% to revoke Article 50, and 20% for another referendum. If that's a shift of opinion, it's a firming up of the Brexiteers, in a still split electorate.
  #1584  
Old 08-18-2019, 12:35 AM
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The true motivation of Johnson, Rees-Mogg, and the rest is to prevent the EU closing down the tax havens where they keep their money, and clamping down on money laundering and shady deals by shady companies.

It really, really matters to them that they should not be forced to pay taxes like everyone else.

I don't know whether Rees-Mogg's hedge fund is shorting Brexit-related stocks, but many others are. Some people stand to gain a lot of money if a no-deal Brexit results in the British economy crashing, and likewise to lose money if it doesn't. Once the UK is out of the EU, they don't care what happens next or who is in power. If the pound and the UK economy crash, so much the better. The next government will have too much on their hands to deal with tax-havens. They may even have facilitate them to avoid the economy crashing altogether.
Chesterton summed it up nicely a century ago, when you still had people arguing that the rich were the ones who "really" had a stake in the country, so should have more say in governing it than the proles:

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“You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists”
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  #1585  
Old 08-18-2019, 04:34 AM
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Chesterton summed it up nicely a century ago, when you still had people arguing that the rich were the ones who "really" had a stake in the country, so should have more say in governing it than the proles:
Still? 2 American elections ago you had candidates complaining that the proles didn't have "skin in the game".
  #1586  
Old 08-18-2019, 06:13 AM
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Meanwhile, Remain political parties are considering teaming up to oust Prime Minister Boris Johnson in order to stop a no-deal Brexit. However, there is not yet consensus on who should be the interim prime minister following Boris' ousting, with Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn thinking it should be him,
I think that, in a nutshell, that shows Corbyn's unsuitability for the top job. He has a golden opportunity and by insisting on his own leadership and his lust for glory, he fucks it up completely.

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and others favoring a more unifying figure such as the "Father of the House" (longest continuously-serving MP) Kenneth Clarke, or the "Mother of the House" (longest continuously-serving female MP), Harriet Harman.
well exactly, a "unity" government needs a unity candidate, something Corbyn could never be (even for his own MP's) Clarke or Harman are infinitely better and more sensible options and if Corbyn cannot see that then he is an idiot (and I do think he is an idiot)
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  #1587  
Old 08-18-2019, 06:16 AM
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Read the whole story, and you get 34% leave with no deal, 22% to revoke Article 50, and 20% for another referendum. If that's a shift of opinion, it's a firming up of the Brexiteers, in a still split electorate.
That was pretty much the position after the EU elections as well. "no deal" ends up as the most popular single, clear course of action. Those not sold on that are fragmented in what they actually do want

Good luck for anyone administration dealing with that.
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  #1588  
Old 08-18-2019, 06:50 AM
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The only things that could reasonably done before Halloween are a no-deal, revocation, or the previously-denied deal. So while there are weird people who would prefer a revocation but a hard Brexit would be their second-best choice, a three-way ranked choice referendum would not necessarily come out with no deal as the winner.
  #1589  
Old 08-18-2019, 07:12 AM
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The fact that their new leader is named "Dick Braine" is probably one of the least ridiculous things about UKIP, tbh.
Reminds me of the Canadian Conservative Reform Alliance Party.

What is the point of UKIP, when there's also a Brexit Party? Keeping track of Nigel Farage's resignations is too difficult.
  #1590  
Old 08-18-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post

What is the point of UKIP, when there's also a Brexit Party? Keeping track of Nigel Farage's resignations is too difficult.
Farage has other fish to fry and bigger ambitions than just Brexit, despite his party's name. He's all for "direct democracy" and, among other things, politicising the juridical and para-juridical systems (like the Electoral Commission).


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-star-movement

Rump UKIP on the other hand don't fancy being also-rans in Farage's one-man band (that's why he and they kept falling out when he was in UKIP) - they have egos and prejudices of their own.
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Old 08-18-2019, 09:51 AM
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Read the whole story, and you get 34% leave with no deal, 22% to revoke Article 50, and 20% for another referendum. If that's a shift of opinion, it's a firming up of the Brexiteers, in a still split electorate.
Yeah, but there's not a great deal of distance between those who would favor revoking Article 50 and those who favor a second referendum. I would imagine that pretty much everyone who would outright revoke Article 50 would choose a second referendum if that was the only option on the table.
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:05 AM
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I think that, in a nutshell, that shows Corbyn's unsuitability for the top job. He has a golden opportunity and by insisting on his own leadership and his lust for glory, he fucks it up completely.



well exactly, a "unity" government needs a unity candidate, something Corbyn could never be (even for his own MP's) Clarke or Harman are infinitely better and more sensible options and if Corbyn cannot see that then he is an idiot (and I do think he is an idiot)
I agree that a unity PM candidate would be best, but if Corbyn puts his foot down, then I think the other Remain parties and factions should acquiesce. A temporary Corbyn-led government for a few weeks or months is surely preferable to the decades-long effects of Brexit. The other Remain parties would need assurances from Corbyn that he wouldn't push any non-Brexit-related agenda while at the controls.
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Old 08-18-2019, 10:17 AM
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The only way it could be done reasonably quickly would be for NI to give up its own government and become part of the Republic of Ireland. And there is absolutely no way they will ever do that.
Is that true? I understand the Catholic birth rate in Northern Ireland is higher (for reasons unknown, I don't think it's the "every sperm is sacred thing") so the territory will eventually be majority Catholic.

Of course, this data is over a decade old. Maybe the Catholic birth rate has dropped.

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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
I agree that a unity PM candidate would be best, but if Corbyn puts his foot down, then I think the other Remain parties and factions should acquiesce. A temporary Corbyn-led government for a few weeks or months is surely preferable to the decades-long effects of Brexit. The other Remain parties would need assurances from Corbyn that he wouldn't push any non-Brexit-related agenda while at the controls.

I don't think people can trust Corbyn. Would he step down? He'd probably need to be forced out.
  #1594  
Old 08-18-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I think that, in a nutshell, that shows Corbyn's unsuitability for the top job. He has a golden opportunity and by insisting on his own leadership and his lust for glory, he fucks it up completely.

well exactly, a "unity" government needs a unity candidate, something Corbyn could never be (even for his own MP's) Clarke or Harman are infinitely better and more sensible options and if Corbyn cannot see that then he is an idiot (and I do think he is an idiot)
He's Leader of the Opposition. The right to form a government - if Johnson cannot - falls on his shoulders. If he can't - and I suspect he won't be able to - then either Clarke or Harman are the obvious choices.
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:54 AM
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The reason Corbyn is unacceptable as a leader, temporary or otherwise, is that he wants Brexit. Brexit needs to be stopped, it needs to be permanently taken off the table. Not postponed, not renegotiated, but stopped completely. There's no reason for the Lib Dems, the SNP, or anyone else who agrees with this to support Corbyn as leader.
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Old 08-18-2019, 12:18 PM
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There's a good article in the Guardian today about Labour. Corbyn has been constantly demanding a general election for ages, and he wants to hold a general election rather than a referendum. But... Labour is utterly and hopelessly unprepared for a general election, and little can be done about that in the next few months.

Jeremy Corbyn wants a general election, but is his party ready to fight one?
  #1597  
Old 08-18-2019, 01:03 PM
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He's Leader of the Opposition. The right to form a government - if Johnson cannot - falls on his shoulders. If he can't - and I suspect he won't be able to - then either Clarke or Harman are the obvious choices.
Specifically, Corbyn's suggestion is to have it badged as a "unity" government. Something other than simply letting the main opposition run things. His attempt to put himself forward as that "unity" figure is laughable.

He is seen (rightly in my opinion) as a non-starter as such a figurehead. If he really is serious about it then there are multiple other candidates who should have been put forward before him.

Pretty much every labour supporter I've spoken to on this sees him as a divisive figure who is angling this for his own benefit, not the country's.
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Old 08-18-2019, 01:03 PM
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The reason Corbyn is unacceptable as a leader, temporary or otherwise, is that he wants Brexit. Brexit needs to be stopped, it needs to be permanently taken off the table. Not postponed, not renegotiated, but stopped completely. There's no reason for the Lib Dems, the SNP, or anyone else who agrees with this to support Corbyn as leader.
But Jeremy Corbyn is Leader of the Opposition. He's the only one who can absolutely guarantee a VONC takes place at all.
  #1599  
Old 08-18-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
The reason Corbyn is unacceptable as a leader, temporary or otherwise, is that he wants Brexit. Brexit needs to be stopped, it needs to be permanently taken off the table. Not postponed, not renegotiated, but stopped completely. There's no reason for the Lib Dems, the SNP, or anyone else who agrees with this to support Corbyn as leader.
You seem to be suggesting that it should never be possible, in the future, to leave the E.U. Exactly how is that going to be decided?
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Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 08-18-2019 at 01:05 PM.
  #1600  
Old 08-18-2019, 01:09 PM
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But Jeremy Corbyn is Leader of the Opposition. He's the only one who can absolutely guarantee a VONC takes place at all.
And that is utterly irrelevant for this situation. The precedents for a unity government do not require an opposition leader to be the head.
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