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Old 05-14-2019, 01:25 PM
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Slowing gun violence without using gun control/elimination


Are there ways to effect the rate of gun violence without going anywhere near the gun control controversy? Are there underlying issues that can be realistically addressed?
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:28 PM
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I'll just paste what I posted in the other thread:

Imagine that the rate of gun ownership, and the "gun culture" of America, however that may be defined, remains exactly the same as it is now over the next 10 years. But imagine that during those 10 years, more of these boys - and let's face it, it's almost always boys - instead of sitting at home in their rooms on their computers or other devices, when they're not at school, are, even just two or three days a week, spending time involved in some kind of productive activity. Whether it's a sports team, an engineering club where they can work on machines, an outdoorsmanship class of some kind where they do some activity relating to nature, or virtually any other kind of activity you can imagine. Here's something that I think is crucial not only to the mental state that motivates these shootings but to depressive and maladaptive personality disorders in general: when you're DOING something, that is time that's NOT being spent on just sitting around drowning in your own thoughts.

I've read enough backstory on enough of these school shooters to know that their lives are typically lacking in camaraderie and productivity. A focused effort to study kids with emotional problems, figure out how they can be targeted with opportunities to alleviate these problems by offering them some meaning in their lives, and allocate funds for some kind of nationwide mentorship program, could seriously reduce the number of potential school shooters. And, unlike gun control, there aren't going to be millions of people shouting down this proposal. It's something that anyone with any common sense should be able to agree on.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:31 PM
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All of the programs you mention cost money, at a time when a lot of us have taken up belt-tightening as a hobby. How are these programs funded?

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Old 05-14-2019, 01:36 PM
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I'm of the opinion that the spike in school/mass shootings has occurred largely because it's seen as a way to make oneself important and maybe famous, and I think that occurred mostly because of the social networking programs and the 24 hour news cycle. So destroying the internet and multichannel television would probably result in a gradual reduction in school/mass shootings.

At the very least you wouldn't hear about so many of them.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
I'm of the opinion that the spike in school/mass shootings has occurred largely because it's seen as a way to make oneself important and maybe famous, and I think that occurred mostly because of the social networking programs and the 24 hour news cycle. So destroying the internet and multichannel television would probably result in a gradual reduction in school/mass shootings.

At the very least you wouldn't hear about so many of them.
Remember this part of the OP?
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Are there underlying issues that can be realistically addressed?
(bolding mine)
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:42 PM
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All of the programs you mention cost money, at a time when a lot of us have taken up belt-tightening as a hobby. How are these programs funded?
Same way anything is funded. Including totally worthless and idiotic things. Online fundraising campaigns, or money from the government.

As to begbert's idea, I was kind of hoping that the thread would stick to things that are actually achievable, instead of totally impossible.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:44 PM
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In various other threads, I'm told that "Criminals don't buy guns legally".

What if we force everyone to purchase a gun legally? Then there won't be any more criminals.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:46 PM
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In various other threads, I'm told that "Criminals don't buy guns legally".

What if we force everyone to purchase a gun legally? Then there won't be any more criminals.
Please re-read the OP.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:47 PM
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We could try loving one another, and view people all as equals in humanity.

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Old 05-14-2019, 01:48 PM
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Are there ways to effect the rate of gun violence without going anywhere near the gun control controversy? Are there underlying issues that can be realistically addressed?
To really address this:

Address the divisiveness of the country. (And most, if not all politicians)
Address the media (and directly the hyperbolic coverage)
Address Poverty and the cultures stuck there

Only one of those has a significant dollar amount attached. The other 2 are probably impossible
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:50 PM
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I'm just going to disregard that, but since you're here, your avatar and namesake are actually relevant to this discussion.

Marilyn Manson was an alienated and angry teenager at one point. What did he do? He took that anger and alienation and he channeled it into something productive, something that entertained millions of people, something that actually made him a millionaire.

Back when Columbine happened, everyone was pointing fingers at Manson. But what nobody said was, "hey, here is this guy who, instead of shooting people because he's angry and alienated, he made music about it instead." Nobody said, "you guys in high school, maybe you should follow that example."

Well I'm saying it now. I've seen memes on FB to the effect of, "hey school shooters, when you're going to the pawn shop to buy a gun, how about buying a guitar instead?" It's goddamn true.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:51 PM
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We could try loving one another, and view people all as equals in humanity.
I'm pretty sure MY idea is more realistic than this
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:52 PM
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I would like to see businesses, restaurants, communities, cities, etc., try the same thing that the anti-smoking campaigns did. Simply prohibit firearms in places of business by posting signs: "This is a gun free establishment." I suppose it would be most effective in places where there are open/conceal carry laws. Less effective in NYC, for example. Still, that would target awareness where it's needed most.

Commercial campaigns like "The Truth About Tobacco", but with gun deaths statistics.

I suppose an immediate, "Liberal gun grabbers!" backlash would immediately ensue. But so does anything that even suggests an anti-gun stance.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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I'm just going to disregard that, but since you're here, your avatar and namesake are actually relevant to this discussion.

Marilyn Manson was an alienated and angry teenager at one point. What did he do? He took that anger and alienation and he channeled it into something productive, something that entertained millions of people, something that actually made him a millionaire.

Back when Columbine happened, everyone was pointing fingers at Manson. But what nobody said was, "hey, here is this guy who, instead of shooting people because he's angry and alienated, he made music about it instead." Nobody said, "you guys in high school, maybe you should follow that example."

Well I'm saying it now. I've seen memes on FB to the effect of, "hey school shooters, when you're going to the pawn shop to buy a gun, how about buying a guitar instead?" It's goddamn true.
Yes, Brian Warner is an intelligent guy.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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I would like to see businesses, restaurants, communities, cities, etc., try the same thing that the anti-smoking campaigns did. Simply prohibit firearms in places of business by posting signs: "This is a gun free establishment."
It's good to see that so many people have read the OP.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:02 PM
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Remember this part of the OP? (bolding mine)
We could absolutely destroy our internet routing, broadcasting, and cell systems. To do so is most definitely within the power of the american government.

We're not going to do so, of course, but the thread is about how to resolve gun violence when we're not willing to get rid of the guns. Things we're not going to do is a theme of this thread.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:03 PM
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It's good to see that so many people have read the OP.
Why do you think that private businesses couldn't elect to post "no guns allowed" signs?
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:03 PM
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Make bullets $1000 each?
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:06 PM
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Why do you think that private businesses couldn't elect to post "no guns allowed" signs?
Jesus H. Christ, man, the OP said "without going anywhere near the gun control controversy." Here I am trying to make a good faith effort to actually discuss ideas, and everyone else seems to just be threadshitting.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:09 PM
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It's good to see that so many people have read the OP.
Read what I said once more, with feeling.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:10 PM
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The history of human being behavior would suggest an emphatic, "NO!"

If putting people on the Honor System worked, we wouldn't need alarms, locks, and police. People need to be governed and controlled. Ideally, they should control themselves, and some actually do. Unfortunately, many don't.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:10 PM
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Jesus H. Christ, man, the OP said "without going anywhere near the gun control controversy." Here I am trying to make a good faith effort to actually discuss ideas, and everyone else seems to just be threadshitting.
Hey, I tried addressing what I percieve to be the source of increased gun violence, and was told I was being unrealistic.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:11 PM
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I like this question, and although I'm not sure I have any good answers that meet the OP's criteria, I think it's helpful to understand the nature of "gun violence" in America. There are several distinct components, with distinct causes and, very likely - particularly in the OP's scenario where we're not talking about banning guns - distinct solutions.

1) Suicides (not quite 2/3)

2) Homicides (~1/3)

3) Accidents (a tiny fraction)

Since so many of the posts have focused on them, it's probably worth noting that school shootings are a small fraction of the total homicides. The lions share is drug- or gang-related.

Off the top of my head, #3 could best be solved through training and education, #2 through whatever helps fight crime, or perhaps ending the war on drugs. #1 seems to be the most intractable problem. Suicide rates have been going up for the last couple of decades. I've been assured in various gun control threads that gun ownership rates have been in decline for decades now, so that doesn't seem to be the cause.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:16 PM
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I'll just paste what I posted in the other thread:

Imagine that the rate of gun ownership, and the "gun culture" of America, however that may be defined, remains exactly the same as it is now over the next 10 years. But imagine that during those 10 years, more of these boys - and let's face it, it's almost always boys - instead of sitting at home in their rooms on their computers or other devices, when they're not at school, are, even just two or three days a week, spending time involved in some kind of productive activity. Whether it's a sports team, an engineering club where they can work on machines, an outdoorsmanship class of some kind where they do some activity relating to nature, or virtually any other kind of activity you can imagine. Here's something that I think is crucial not only to the mental state that motivates these shootings but to depressive and maladaptive personality disorders in general: when you're DOING something, that is time that's NOT being spent on just sitting around drowning in your own thoughts.

I've read enough backstory on enough of these school shooters to know that their lives are typically lacking in camaraderie and productivity. A focused effort to study kids with emotional problems, figure out how they can be targeted with opportunities to alleviate these problems by offering them some meaning in their lives, and allocate funds for some kind of nationwide mentorship program, could seriously reduce the number of potential school shooters. And, unlike gun control, there aren't going to be millions of people shouting down this proposal. It's something that anyone with any common sense should be able to agree on.
I'm not seeing this as a likely solution. There are always other people around. If somebody is a disaffected loner, it's not due to a lack of opportunities to meet other people. The problem is internal; some individuals are either unwilling or unable to be part of a group.

Pushing them into a group is not going to address that internal problem. In fact, it may put more stress on the individual as he is forced to deal with a situation he can't or doesn't want to deal with. This stress might make their problems worse and increase the chances of them turning violent.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:22 PM
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Legalize drugs, starting with weed. You'll be undercutting much of the criminal activity that leads to gun violence and paying more then lip service to that "land of the free" (currently an ironic joke) stuff, in addition to freeing up a massive amount of law enforcement resources.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:26 PM
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And on top of that, homicides seem to be concentrated in fairly easily identified demographics as well. It's not old Asian ladies shooting and killing each other, for example, nor is it white collar suburbanites.

Also, school shootings and random mass shootings are still a TINY fraction of the total number of gun deaths. For example, if you look at the Wikipedia list of mass shootings (which is misleading; most of those are things like gang drive-bys, or shootings where bystanders are accidentally wounded and killed, not 'mass shootings' as people think of them), a total of 387 people were killed.

That's out of something like 40,000 total gun deaths, so more or less 1%, even accounting for the fact that most of the shootings aren't Parkland/Columbine/Santa Fe/Pulse Nightclub type events. In 2017 and 2016, it was more along the lines of 200.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:29 PM
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And on top of that, homicides seem to be concentrated in fairly easily identified demographics as well. It's not old Asian ladies shooting and killing each other, for example, nor is it white collar suburbanites.

Also, school shootings and random mass shootings are still a TINY fraction of the total number of gun deaths. For example, if you look at the Wikipedia list of mass shootings (which is misleading; most of those are things like gang drive-bys, or shootings where bystanders are accidentally wounded and killed, not 'mass shootings' as people think of them), a total of 387 people were killed.

That's out of something like 40,000 total gun deaths, so more or less 1%, even accounting for the fact that most of the shootings aren't Parkland/Columbine/Santa Fe/Pulse Nightclub type events. In 2017 and 2016, it was more along the lines of 200.
And your possible(non gun control) solutions are...?
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:32 PM
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I'm pretty sure MY idea is more realistic than this
Quite possibly. But, yours mentioned firearms, didn't it?

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Old 05-14-2019, 02:35 PM
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Despite the many ideas above that address the problem of sad rural and suburban shooters, most gun violence occurs where the population is very concentrated. (Unless you are talking about suicides)

US cities are miserable managers of public property and dreadful defenders of private property. Privatization of urban property and the introduction of private security services would be a good solution. Legalization of all drugs would be another constructive policy.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-14-2019 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:37 PM
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So, am I going to get yelled at for being an idiot and not reading the OP if I suggested that universal health coverage, including things like mental health coverage, alcohol and addition treatment, etc.

And also, more social services to crack down on abuse of family members. I'm convinced that there's a cycle of violence in America that starts with abuse in the home, whether sexual, physical, or psychological.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:44 PM
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Gun violence experienced an uptick during the state-led destruction of the familial social bonds. Pro-family measures such as abolishing welfare transfer payments and Social Security insurance could strengthen communities afflicted by gun violence.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-14-2019 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:45 PM
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I'm of the opinion that the spike in school/mass shootings has occurred largely because it's seen as a way to make oneself important and maybe famous, and I think that occurred mostly because of the social networking programs and the 24 hour news cycle...
The Columbine shooters were persecuted by other students (wikipedia):

The link between bullying and school violence has attracted increasing attention since the massacre. Both of the shooters were classified as gifted children who had allegedly been victims of bullying for years. Early stories following the shootings charged that school administrators and teachers at Columbine had long condoned bullying.[156] Critics said this could have contributed to triggering the perpetrators' extreme violence.[157] Klebold said on the Basement Tapes, "You've been giving us shit for years."[25]

Accounts from various parents and school staffers describe bullying at the school as "rampant."[158] Nathan Vanderau, a friend of Klebold, and Alisa Owen, Harris's eighth-grade science partner, reported that Harris and Klebold were constantly picked on. Vanderau noted that a "cup of fecal matter" was thrown at them.[159] Reportedly, they were regularly called "faggots".[160]


If those other students had not treat them so, I doubt they would have committed the crime. I doubt that hormone poisoned high school students can be taught to be nice and polite, but school faculty members can be taught to stop student bullying.
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:35 PM
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For an off-the-wall idea, instead of trying to crack down on student bullying, why not encourage student fighting, i.e. the teacher says "if someone is bullying you, you have the right to defend yourself with physical but not deadly force." You may get more fistfights but fewer shootings.
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:41 PM
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For an off-the-wall idea, instead of trying to crack down on student bullying, why not encourage student fighting, i.e. the teacher says "if someone is bullying you, you have the right to defend yourself with physical but not deadly force." You may get more fistfights but fewer shootings.
You will get the shit kicked out of you on a constant basis. The only thing holding those bullies back is the possibility of them getting in trouble for fighting...and you want to give them a free pass?
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:06 PM
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You will get the shit kicked out of you on a constant basis. The only thing holding those bullies back is the possibility of them getting in trouble for fighting...and you want to give them a free pass?
Nothing I said grants this. The students are being encouraged to defend themselves, not initiate violence.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:10 PM
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Nothing I said grants this. The students are being encouraged to defend themselves, not initiate violence.
That would be a free pass to all the bullies because, unless an adult supervisor is standing right there the bullies will claim they didn't hit first. Did you not go to a school that had bullies?

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Old 05-14-2019, 04:15 PM
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He's from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we'd have a hockey shoot-out.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:20 PM
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He's from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we'd have a hockey shoot-out.
Puck that.
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:43 PM
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He's from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we'd have a hockey shoot-out.
Tabernac!
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:51 PM
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It seems to me that Hollywood made a big shift from showing smoking as ubiquitous and cool to either not showing it, or putting it in a different light. I think it could be possible for Hollywood and other media to portray guns in a way that would change gun culture. One minor step would just be more realistic portrayals.

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Old 05-14-2019, 04:58 PM
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Well, the rate of firearm deaths has been cut in half from the early 90s.

https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-conte...-crime-1-2.png

Potential causes of the decline include things like easy access to abortion and removal of lead from gasoline.

Mass shootings seem to be connected to domestic violence. However I'm not sure how this information can be used.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...estic-violence

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While perpetrators of domestic violence account for only about 10 percent of all gun violence, they accounted for 54 percent of mass shootings between 2009 and 2016, according to the advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety, so there is a disproportionate link, Webster tells Kodjak.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:15 PM
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Are there ways to effect the rate of gun violence without going anywhere near the gun control controversy? Are there underlying issues that can be realistically addressed?
Lock up the violent. Agreeing with bump, upthread, certain groups are responsible for the vast majority of homicides committed with a firearm. The vast, vast majority of the individual offenders within those groups are not first time violent offenders. Make it a priority to prosecute those accused of crimes of violence, refuse to let those accused to plead to relatively minor non-violent crimes, and when found guilty, keep them locked up. Short-circuit the catch and release carousel, IOW. If this means fewer resources towards prosecuting drug offenses, so much the better.

When these violent people are released from prison, if they are found in possession of deadly weapons, lock them up again. I've mentioned the US Attorney's Office's Project Exile here before. As possession of a deadly weapon by a prohibited person is a strict liability crime, it's very easy to prove.

For the insane, those people unable to care for themselves, and of whom a significant subset are violent towards others, bring back the asylums. This won't be cheap, which is one of the reasons why de-institutionalization was so popular back in the day. Historically, it was also very overinclusive. Yet, it will bring down school shooting rates perpetrated by the insane, as it largely did in the pre Columbine era. Whether this cost is unacceptable, I leave to you.

Tl;DR: Incapacitate those who have proven a willingness to be unlawfully violent in our society, by incarcerating them until they are too old to misbehave.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:42 PM
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When these violent people are released from prison, if they are found in possession of deadly weapons, lock them up again.
I believe we do in Arkansas. "Possession of a firearm by certain persons" or something like that.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:54 PM
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I believe we do in Arkansas. "Possession of a firearm by certain persons" or something like that.
Pretty much every place has that law on the books. Priority enforcement OTOH...

Which was one reason why Exile worked so well. Even if local authorities downgraded their priority in dealing with the problem, the USA could step in and issue felon in possession charges. Then the offender would be dealing with Federal charges, and there really isn't any parole in the federal system. A sentence of 120 months of prison is going to result in a pretty close to 120 month prison stay.

Further, Federal prisons were often far away from where the crimes occurred. State jail/prison, maybe an hour bus ride. Federal prison? Could be a several hour/most of the day excursion. Visits went down.

All of which became known in the criminal community, and (anecdotally, from talking to people in the criminal justice industry) it resulted in criminals talking about other crimes they'd done, or cutting deals to avoid having to do that kind of federal time. Or relocating from the area. Or just not carrying weapons at all.

You can have all of the laws on the books you want. It's which ones are prioritized that make a difference.
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:38 PM
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A very large majority of gun background checks take minutes. Some cases are trickier and don't produce those quick approvals or disapprovals.Something like a felony arrest but no record of the disposition of the case available might trigger a deeper look. By law there's a three day window to complete those delayed background checks. If the result doesn't come back the dealer can then legally sell the gun. It's called a "default proceed." There's an 89 day total window to finish the background check before it's dropped. Checks that show a sale that shouldn't have been legal are referred to the ATF for follow up investigation to recover the firearm...which may or may not happen. A good chunk of those default sales are to people not legally allowed to own a firearm. Changing to a "default no" would be politically charged; the NRA opposes it and it would block more legal sales than illegal sales. Making the window to 4 or 5 days before a default proceed might be politically doable though.

States record keeping and reporting to the federal databases can be spotty. The background check is only as good as the data available. It's illegal under federal law to sell to people with domestic violence convictions, domestic violence restraining orders, a history of substance abuse, and some mental illnesses. The data to make those determinations during the background check suffer from a host of reporting issues. The military went through a major check of court martial results for domestic violence after a shooting in 2017 using a gun that shouldn't have been legal to purchase by a former airman. Some of the reporting fixes might cost money. Some might be relatively cheap or free with changes to laws/regulations driving the current errors. It's relatively non-controversial though. The system is allowing gun sales to people that can't legally have them. The fix is just about making sure the data on disqualifying factors is accurately reported. It's not about creating new controls that impact those legally allowed to own guns.
  #46  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:23 PM
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I've bought at gun shows with no check. I've bought at gun stores with a five minute over the phone check.
I think there should be a license to buy. An extensive check would be required to obtain the license. Perhaps a safety course and shooting test. The license should be touted as an exclusive group, qualified to safely buy and use firearms, a mark of distinction among gun owners. You would flash the card and be able to buy with no check.

Last edited by carnivorousplant; 05-14-2019 at 08:24 PM.
  #47  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:21 PM
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Writers of posts #42 through #46-Please reread the OP.
  #48  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
The Columbine shooters were persecuted by other students (wikipedia):

The link between bullying and school violence has attracted increasing attention since the massacre. Both of the shooters were classified as gifted children who had allegedly been victims of bullying for years. Early stories following the shootings charged that school administrators and teachers at Columbine had long condoned bullying.[156] Critics said this could have contributed to triggering the perpetrators' extreme violence.[157] Klebold said on the Basement Tapes, "You've been giving us shit for years."[25]

Accounts from various parents and school staffers describe bullying at the school as "rampant."[158] Nathan Vanderau, a friend of Klebold, and Alisa Owen, Harris's eighth-grade science partner, reported that Harris and Klebold were constantly picked on. Vanderau noted that a "cup of fecal matter" was thrown at them.[159] Reportedly, they were regularly called "faggots".[160]


If those other students had not treat them so, I doubt they would have committed the crime. I doubt that hormone poisoned high school students can be taught to be nice and polite, but school faculty members can be taught to stop student bullying.
This is a popular misconception. It's wrong, wrong, wrong. According to CNN, journalist Dave Cullen

Quote:
concluded that the killers weren't part of the Trench Coat Mafia, that they weren't bullied by other students and that they didn't target popular jocks, African-Americans or any other group. A school shooting wasn't their initial intent, he said. They wanted to bomb their school in an attack they hoped would make them more infamous than Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
Cullen found that the bullying myth began when the 24-hour news media, anxious for fresh angles to the story when the initial fascination wore off, aired such erroneous theories as bullying and the fictitious Trench Coat Mafia. Likewise, the story that Cassie Bernall, a Christian, was asked if she believed in God, replied, "Yes," and was killed is also incorrect. The student who was asked that question was Valerie Schnurr, who replied yes and survived the shooting.

Bullying is common: 20% of all school children are bullied, yet a fraction of a percent commit school shootings. There have to be other causes.
  #49  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:04 PM
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He's from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we'd have a hockey shoot-out.
That's not going to work in this country. We could probably get American students to take up smoking and play hockey. But we're never going to get them to learn a second language.
  #50  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:17 PM
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That would be a free pass to all the bullies because, unless an adult supervisor is standing right there the bullies will claim they didn't hit first. Did you not go to a school that had bullies?
I don't think your prediction is likely. Are the bullies going to claim they were being bullied by probably smaller weaker students?

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 05-14-2019 at 11:18 PM.
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