Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:41 PM
Ellis Dee is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 14,273
Ha! Totally agreed with you there.

I still hold much of the SDMB in contempt for all the outrage that JOHN CONSTANTINE IS BLONDE! when Keanu Reeves played him.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 06-17-2019 at 07:41 PM.
  #152  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:14 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Yeah, I know you can roll your eyes and walk away because you donít actually have face accountability.

Itís just soooo convenient how all these so-called immutable laws of commerce or art or whatever just happen to support the status quo hierarchy.

I saw how some folks squealed bloody murder when a non-white actor was cast as M.J. in a Spider-Man movie (ďMary Jane is a red-head! Period!Ē). That movie was pretty successful.

Then I saw people squealing when Miles Morales was written as a new Spider-Man. (Itís just politically correct pandering.). Well that made to the big screen itís all kinds of Spider-people and it wa successful too.

I donít think there any reason to take the word of people who just know what the public will accept when it comes to race and casting.
Only people I saw bitching about Miles were plebs who didn't understand it was an Ultimate universe replacement. Not difficult to understand either since the media (go figure) ran with "Peter Parker is dead!!!" as their lead....and then would bury that it was the Ultimate one.
  #153  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:17 PM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,634
Recently I learned that Bette Midler was originally chosen for "Sister Act" instead of Whoopie Goldberg. Midler turned down the role because she didn't think her fans wanted to see her dressed like a nun.

Now, one could easily argue that Midler was the logical choice for that role. She's got the pipes and the acting chops, and she was a bigger star than Whoopie back in 1992. Plus, she is white. You can't go wrong with white! And yeah, the nun that inspired the whole thing is white too.

I don't know about you, but I can't imagine anyone but Whoopie playing that role. And despite the fact the character was originally written with a white actress in mind, the Broadway production of "Sister Act" now only casts black women to play the part.

So people who insist that the market must be catered to at all costs, just remember that the market is much more open-minded than is often assumed. People will watch a movie if the material is good enough. And even more will watch if there are big enough names in it. It doesn't matter if one or two of the "big names" don't have the right shade of skin color some unimaginative fanboy was expecting. Why? Because most people don't read the source material in the first place. So they don't have any expectations.
  #154  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:07 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
In response to your numbered points:

(1) (there is no difference between all-male stories and other types of stories)

Let A = the way men relate to each other in the absence of women
Let B = the way women relate to each other in the absence of men
Let C = the way men and women relate to each other in mixed groups

It is absolutely inherent that all three are different from each other.
Is it? In A, does it change if all the men are gay, or radical faeries, or feminists? What about in B and C?

There are plenty of depictions of how men relate to each other in the absence of women that have nothing to do with my experiences of the same. I don't think it's an inherent quality at all.

That said, there are certain social structures that enforce gender segregation, and there are plenty of interesting stories to be told in those structures. Das Boot would be a profoundly different movie if half the sailors were women, because it'd be clearly set in an alternate universe where Nazi submarine captains allowed women on board. If Sister Act featured a bunch of habit-clad dudes belting out hymns alongside the women, I'd just be confused.
  #155  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:09 AM
orcenio is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: NCR
Posts: 2,176
I don't care. Art/theatre/tv/movies/etc will always be copied and subverted. That's just what people do.

You see Hollywood redoing Japanese movies with American actors, Bollywood redoing Hollywood films with Indian actors, and everything in between. Its an industry that has no problem remaking, rebooting, rehashing anything in anyway. They do so out of artistic direction, necessity, or to cynically increase their audience. Ghostbusters with an all-female cast. Romeo and Juliet as a musical. Ancient Greek historian Xenophon's historic drama as a campy New York City gangwar film. Dinner for schmucks was originally French, Oldboy was Korean, Vanilla Sky was Spanish, and Disney adapted almost all of their content from the Brother's Grimm, Lewis Carroll, Rudyard Kipling, Victor Hugo and many more.

Just get used to it...or don't.

Last edited by orcenio; 06-18-2019 at 12:12 AM.
  #156  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:05 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 14,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Is it? In A, does it change if all the men are gay, or radical faeries, or feminists? What about in B and C?
Of course, though I don't see how "or feminists" is relevant. The key is whether or not the group includes people you could want to fuck. Are you implying it doesn't? And even within that, surely gay-men-only has a different dynamic to hetero-coed and both are in turn different from lesbian-only groups.

Quote:
There are plenty of depictions of how men relate to each other in the absence of women that have nothing to do with my experiences of the same. I don't think it's an inherent quality at all.
I don't see how your anecdotal experience is relevant; I'm not saying that ALL men-only groups are the same.

And then you freely concede my point in your next paragraph, though you seem to be implying it's all socialization. I don't think that's true. Put any bunch of strangers together and the group dynamic will absolutely be different depending on if they want to fuck each other or not.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 06-18-2019 at 04:07 AM.
  #157  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:05 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,634
Jerks are modifying and distributing pirated movies to spread their sexist and racist ideologies.

Quote:
A star of Avengers: Endgame, one of the biggest movies of all time, was completely excised from a modified pirated version of the film ó along with everything else in the film seen as feminist or gay.

An anonymous fan edited out shots, scenes and characters in a "defeminized" version circulating now on an illegal streaming site. As well as losing Larson's character, Captain Marvel, the defeminized edit is missing a scene where Hawkeye teaches his daughter to shoot. ("Young women should learn skills to become good wives and mothers and leave the fighting to men," the editor opined in an accompanying document.) The role of Black Panther is minimized. ("He's really not that important.") Spider-Man doesn't get rescued by women characters anymore. ("No need to.") And male characters no longer hug.

This particular defeminized edit is just the latest example of a trend, says Suzanne Scott, a professor of film and media studies at the University of Texas. A similar "chauvinist cut" of 2017's Star Wars: The Last Jedi removed key scenes of women making decisions, giving orders, having ideas and fighting in battle. So much was trimmed, Scott says, only about 30% of the original film remained.
  #158  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:32 AM
Broomstick's Avatar
Broomstick is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 28,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
I don't know about you, but I can't imagine anyone but Whoopie playing that role. And despite the fact the character was originally written with a white actress in mind, the Broadway production of "Sister Act" now only casts black women to play the part.
The part of Ripley in Alien was originally written for a man, but nobody gave a damn that a woman was cast, and it launched a genre of action women that didn't rely on men to rescue them.

Lara Croft in Tomb Raider was originally conceived as a man - gamers wouldn't want a POV character that's a girl, right? - but having a woman as the POV in a video game didn't impair the popularity of the franchise.

Seems thegeneral public, even specialized segments of it, are far more open to change than many suppose.
  #159  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:23 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
And this is all tied up in the arrogance of the status quo, the prejudices of those currently holding power. And that's all about racism in society and the racism of the people who have the power to make decisions. Those who think that the race of a character, or the sex or gender, can fundamentally never be changed or that the race of an actor portraying a character is an insurmountable hurdle is doing so from a position of being steeped in a culture of racism and sexism.

(And, of course, white men never suffer when one white man fails while every non-white, non-man is pasted with failure when one non-white, non-male person fails.)
This is it right here. A lot of white dudes (cuz let's be honest, it's almost ALWAYS white dudes) quite simply lack the imagination to envision non-white and/or non-male people in roles that have been traditionally reserved for white guys.

Superman:
- Alien from another planet = disbelief suspended
- Super strength = disbelief suspended
- Ability to fly = disbelief suspended
- Shoot lasers from his eyes = disbelief suspended
- Invulnerable to damn near everything = disbelief suspended
- Looks like a black guy = WTF?!?! NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO BELIEVE THAT!!!

The question I really want to ask is this: who are you guys trying to fool, us or yourselves? Because your actions make it pretty damn obvious what your hang ups really are.
  #160  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:27 AM
Annie-Xmas is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 55,428
When classically trained opera singer Robert Guillaume took over for Michael Crawford in the LA production of The Phantom of the Opera, the theatre braced itself for complaints about an African American Phantom in a love story with the (white) Elizabeth Stack as Christine.

They got exactly two complaints.

Theatre people are so classy!
  #161  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:41 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,430
Bulletproof flying alien with laser eyes looks like a black guy = fine.

Guy who looks like a black guy blends in seamlessly with and is respected by 1930s America = You've got some explaining to do.

And yeah, maybe you can explain it. Maybe your version of 1930s Metropolis has some other group being marginalized instead of blacks. Maybe it's a utopian vision of what Metropolis should have looked like, where everyone is accepted. Maybe in your story, Clark Kent wasn't respected, because of his race, and you can use that to explore how his character developed differently. Maybe Kal-El's ship didn't crash in Smallville until about 1990, and the Kents were sufficiently enlightened that they didn't care about the baby's color. But if you want your character to be Superman, there's more than just the superpowers you need to deal with.
  #162  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:56 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Bulletproof flying alien with laser eyes looks like a black guy = fine.

Guy who looks like a black guy blends in seamlessly with and is respected by 1930s America = You've got some explaining to do.

And yeah, maybe you can explain it. Maybe your version of 1930s Metropolis has some other group being marginalized instead of blacks. Maybe it's a utopian vision of what Metropolis should have looked like, where everyone is accepted. Maybe in your story, Clark Kent wasn't respected, because of his race, and you can use that to explore how his character developed differently. Maybe Kal-El's ship didn't crash in Smallville until about 1990, and the Kents were sufficiently enlightened that they didn't care about the baby's color. But if you want your character to be Superman, there's more than just the superpowers you need to deal with.
From a storyline perspective the only problem that needs to be dealt with is the prejudice, bigotry and racism of the white people in the environment Superman inhabits. Apparently that prejudice is such an immutable truth that people like you can't even imagine it to be something different.

How you can suspend your disbelief to accept a god like alien then turn around and throw up a million and one hurdles as to why that alien shouldn't look like a black guy is confusing as hell to me. It's almost like you think this is something other than make believe.
  #163  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:13 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,430
You say that I can't imagine it, right after I make a post imagining it.
  #164  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:23 AM
MrAtoz is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Bulletproof flying alien with laser eyes looks like a black guy = fine.

Guy who looks like a black guy blends in seamlessly with and is respected by 1930s America = You've got some explaining to do.

And yeah, maybe you can explain it. Maybe your version of 1930s Metropolis has some other group being marginalized instead of blacks. Maybe it's a utopian vision of what Metropolis should have looked like, where everyone is accepted. Maybe in your story, Clark Kent wasn't respected, because of his race, and you can use that to explore how his character developed differently. Maybe Kal-El's ship didn't crash in Smallville until about 1990, and the Kents were sufficiently enlightened that they didn't care about the baby's color. But if you want your character to be Superman, there's more than just the superpowers you need to deal with.
When is the last time you saw an adaptation of Superman that was set in the 1930s?

With a handful of exceptions, like Wonder Woman or the first Captain America film, that are deliberate period pieces, superhero stories take place in the present day. Superman debuting in 1930s America hasn't been a thing in literally decades. Whatever year it is now, Superman arrived on earth roughly thirty years ago. Whatever attitudes 1930s people might have had toward a black superhero are immaterial to a story being told today.

How many people remember that Peter Parker's high school nemesis, Flash Thompson, enlisted in the army and fought in Vietnam after graduation? That was comic book canon for quite awhile. Now it isn't anymore. Likewise, the injury that prompted Tony Stark to become Iron Man no longer happened in Vietnam, and Reed Richards and Ben Grimm are no longer World War II veterans. Comics take place in a sort of nebulous "Now and the recent past," and any references to specific dates eventually have to be abandoned.

A black Superman would certainly face racial prejudice, even today. But talking about what it would be like for him during the 1930s doesn't seem relevant unless the hypothetical story we're talking about is set on Earth-2.

And come to think of it, I don't think Earth-2 is actually a thing anymore, either.
  #165  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:26 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
From a storyline perspective the only problem that needs to be dealt with is the prejudice, bigotry and racism of the white people in the environment Superman inhabits. Apparently that prejudice is such an immutable truth that people like you can't even imagine it to be something different.

How you can suspend your disbelief to accept a god like alien then turn around and throw up a million and one hurdles as to why that alien shouldn't look like a black guy is confusing as hell to me. It's almost like you think this is something other than make believe.
There sure is a lot of 'cant find the discussion I want to argue-so I'll create it' going on in this thread.
  #166  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:30 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,634
Laserbeam eyes and superhuman strength are more believable than black people being treated fairly by 1930s whites. As the young people say nowadays, I can't even.
__________________
What the hell is a signature?

Last edited by monstro; 06-18-2019 at 09:31 AM.
  #167  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:39 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,430
As far as a story goes, yes. We don't read stories in order to understand how physics works. We read stories to understand how people work. A Superman story isn't by any remote stretch an accurate depiction of physics, but it is (or at least, should be) an accurate depiction of how people interact.
  #168  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:54 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
As far as a story goes, yes. We don't read stories in order to understand how physics works. We read stories to understand how people work. A Superman story isn't by any remote stretch an accurate depiction of physics, but it is (or at least, should be) an accurate depiction of how people interact.
The people I know would be totally freaked out by a guy flying around in his underwear. And they would be doubly freaked out if laserbeams shot out of his eyes. In the world I inhabit, Superman would be portrayed as a demonic atheist homosexual attention whore by at least half the populace. So if Superman is all about how "people work", it fails spectacularly.

I don't indulge in super hero movies to find out how "people work". I indulge in this genre to escape reality all together. The drama genre provides much better examples of how "people work" than Superman movies. There are no laserbeam eyes in movies like "Terms of Endearment", as far as I know.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
__________________
What the hell is a signature?
  #169  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:18 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee View Post
Of course, though I don't see how "or feminists" is relevant. The key is whether or not the group includes people you could want to fuck. Are you implying it doesn't?
That's not what you said, though. There are plenty of times I'm hanging out in a mixed-gender group where I'm not attracted to any of the other people in the group. Does that fit in your "men only" category, or in your mixed gender category? If that's the key, it doesn't fit the lock well.
Quote:
I don't see how your anecdotal experience is relevant; I'm not saying that ALL men-only groups are the same.
Then I'm very confused by what you meant when you said the difference was "inherent." I though you were saying the difference was in ALL groups.
Quote:
And then you freely concede my point in your next paragraph, though you seem to be implying it's all socialization.
Wow. Nope, not at all what I was saying. Again: there are actual historical gender-segregated groups. If I make a movie about a nunnery, but I hire men to play half of the nuns, and they present as men in the film, it's going to confuse people--not because there's some inherent difference in the dynamic of a mixed gender group, but because what are all those dudes doing in a nunnery?
  #170  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:21 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
You say that I can't imagine it, right after I make a post imagining it.
Yes you imagined it, complete with racism and bigotry. Can you imagine it without those things is the point I have been trying to make. Can you just pretend it doesn't exist and has never existed in any way, shape or form? Yes, even back in the 30s.

And just so I'm clear, I'm not talking about a black guy with superman like powers. I'm talking about Superman and all of his iconic-ness...who happens to look like a black guy from earth.
  #171  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:37 AM
MrAtoz is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,576
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
There are no laserbeam eyes in movies like "Terms of Endearment", as far as I know.
You need to see the director's cut!
  #172  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:38 AM
Omniscient is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 17,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Yeah, I know you can roll your eyes and walk away because you donít actually have face accountability.
What in the holy fuck are you on about?
  #173  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:38 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
The people I know would be totally freaked out by a guy flying around in his underwear. And they would be doubly freaked out if laserbeams shot out of his eyes. In the world I inhabit, Superman would be portrayed as a demonic atheist homosexual attention whore by at least half the populace. So if Superman is all about how "people work", it fails spectacularly.

I don't indulge in super hero movies to find out how "people work". I indulge in this genre to escape reality all together. The drama genre provides much better examples of how "people work" than Superman movies. There are no laserbeam eyes in movies like "Terms of Endearment", as far as I know.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
Absoulutely your choice...but how people work is certainly there. My nine-year old didn't cry at the end of Endgame because "It means no more shiny-flying dude"
  #174  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:40 AM
Pantastic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
There sure is a lot of 'cant find the discussion I want to argue-so I'll create it' going on in this thread.
I remember this happened the last time a similar thread came up - there are some people here who think that pointing out that a black superhero would get a radically different reception in the US (especially in the US decades back in the 20th century) and that an author would need to take that into account in the story means that you're a racist who's insisting that it's impossible to have a black-skinned superhero. There's a big difference between "Marvel was terribad for having a black person take over as Captain America after Steve Rogers died, they can't do that" and "If Marvel cast the original Steve Rogers as a black guy during WW2, the story of Captain America would need to be different as his reception would be different", but some people don't seem to be able to tell the difference.
  #175  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:44 AM
Pantastic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
And yeah, maybe you can explain it. Maybe your version of 1930s Metropolis has some other group being marginalized instead of blacks. Maybe it's a utopian vision of what Metropolis should have looked like, where everyone is accepted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Yes you imagined it, complete with racism and bigotry. Can you imagine it without those things is the point I have been trying to make. Can you just pretend it doesn't exist and has never existed in any way, shape or form? Yes, even back in the 30s.
He literally listed two scenarios in the post you're angry about, one in which Metropolis doesn't have bigotry, and the other in which Metropolis has something other that white-black bigotry. You really seem to be arguing with something that isn't actually in the thread.
  #176  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:04 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,607
I think one of the reasons that The Wild, Wild West movie fell flat with a resounding clank was the scene where Jim West cajoles the lynch mob out of hanging him. Not because Jim West has to be white, dammit, and not because Will Smith isn't a good actor, but because the notion of being the charming rogue and jollying an 1870s lynch mob out of a hanging stretches plausibility way beyond the breaking point whereas steam-powered metal robots does not. That may be due to the fact that Loveless did make racist comments about West - so racism was really a thing in that universe.

Would it work with Superman? Maybe, but it would take a lot of fan-wanking. I'm thinking of Smallville, where race prejudice isn't a thing and nobody thinks twice when Ma and Pa Kent adopt a black baby. But there would have also to be a substantial black community in Smallville as well. Lana Lang wasn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but if Superboy shows up and is black, and Clark Kent is the only black kid in town, even she is going to catch on to his secret identity eventually.

It would be even worse than the whole "I don't recognize him - he's wearing glasses" thing.

Regards,
Shodan
  #177  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:11 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
I remember this happened the last time a similar thread came up - there are some people here who think that pointing out that a black superhero would get a radically different reception in the US (especially in the US decades back in the 20th century) and that an author would need to take that into account in the story means that you're a racist who's insisting that it's impossible to have a black-skinned superhero. There's a big difference between "Marvel was terribad for having a black person take over as Captain America after Steve Rogers died, they can't do that" and "If Marvel cast the original Steve Rogers as a black guy during WW2, the story of Captain America would need to be different as his reception would be different", but some people don't seem to be able to tell the difference.
SDMB is very left-leaning...and even if someone did believe a lot of the stuff some people are looking to argue about...they arn't going to express it in Cafe Society.

We're all different. I think a female Bond *can* work, but its dicey and absolutely depends on the casting. Or scenario. What if the last Craig film had him team up with another agent and the actress knocks it out of the park? Craig dies and the female agent (lets just say its played by Charlize Theron) is offered his spot in the 00 ranks:

M: We happen to have an opening. Would you be interested?

Theron: I would.

M: You'll need a codename.

Theron: (Looking out the window into the middle-distance) How about....Bond?

M: (Raises an eyebrow) And the first name?

Theron: mmm...no. Bond. Just Bond.


Ok maybe thats a little corny, but I like it.
  #178  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:19 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
I think one of the reasons that The Wild, Wild West movie fell flat with a resounding clank was the scene where Jim West cajoles the lynch mob out of hanging him. Not because Jim West has to be white, dammit, and not because Will Smith isn't a good actor, but because the notion of being the charming rogue and jollying an 1870s lynch mob out of a hanging stretches plausibility way beyond the breaking point whereas steam-powered metal robots does not. That may be due to the fact that Loveless did make racist comments about West - so racism was really a thing in that universe.

Would it work with Superman? Maybe, but it would take a lot of fan-wanking. I'm thinking of Smallville, where race prejudice isn't a thing and nobody thinks twice when Ma and Pa Kent adopt a black baby. But there would have also to be a substantial black community in Smallville as well. Lana Lang wasn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but if Superboy shows up and is black, and Clark Kent is the only black kid in town, even she is going to catch on to his secret identity eventually.

It would be even worse than the whole "I don't recognize him - he's wearing glasses" thing.

Regards,
Shodan
Not to mention....this a lot of hoop-jumping just to....what?? Make a black Superman work? A good Superman story should be the priority over 'making a black Superman work.'.

And "Its time for a Black Superman" (random Slate/Buzzfeed/Huff Po hack article title) should NOT be the priority in making said movie.

Really....this works better as either an Elseworlds comic or some kind of high-minded TV project.....say a Doom Patrol ep that just dives in feet first presenting the episode without the DP even being in it. Confusing the hell out of the audience and then in the second part we find it s a comic come to life. Maybe get Grant Morrison to write this TV ep. I think he's the only one who can mine the comedy and drama needed.
  #179  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:23 AM
monstro is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 20,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
Absoulutely your choice...but how people work is certainly there. My nine-year old didn't cry at the end of Endgame because "It means no more shiny-flying dude"
And 20-something me cried during Toy Story when Buzz Lightyear got to fall with style.

But I didn't watch that movie to see how actual people work. I watched it to see how toy people work. Toy people are not constrained by the same weaknesses that people are. If they were, Buzz would have never believed he could fly in the first place.

It is 100% understandable why a nine-year old wouldn't focus on the implausibility of superhero movies and instead just go along for the emotional roller coaster ride. I would argue that is how most people experience this genre. They aren't watching this kind of flick because they care about all the little details that don't have much relevance to the storyline, but rather the big stuff. Only a small subset of movie-goers care about "world building" and and trueness to the source material. Most people just care about how a movie makes them feel.
__________________
What the hell is a signature?

Last edited by monstro; 06-18-2019 at 11:26 AM.
  #180  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:29 AM
Omniscient is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 17,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
The part of Ripley in Alien was originally written for a man, but nobody gave a damn that a woman was cast, and it launched a genre of action women that didn't rely on men to rescue them.

Lara Croft in Tomb Raider was originally conceived as a man - gamers wouldn't want a POV character that's a girl, right? - but having a woman as the POV in a video game didn't impair the popularity of the franchise.

Seems thegeneral public, even specialized segments of it, are far more open to change than many suppose.
So your argument is that the "general public" is open to change because of examples of 2 changes that occurred in the pre-production process before a single member of the public saw it? Oooookay.
  #181  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:34 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,430
Those two cases show that the public is OK with female action heroes in general. It doesn't show that they're OK with any random specific action hero being female.
  #182  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:50 AM
Omniscient is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 17,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
This is it right here. A lot of white dudes (cuz let's be honest, it's almost ALWAYS white dudes) quite simply lack the imagination to envision non-white and/or non-male people in roles that have been traditionally reserved for white guys.

Superman:
- Alien from another planet = disbelief suspended
- Super strength = disbelief suspended
- Ability to fly = disbelief suspended
- Shoot lasers from his eyes = disbelief suspended
- Invulnerable to damn near everything = disbelief suspended
- Looks like a black guy = WTF?!?! NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO BELIEVE THAT!!!

The question I really want to ask is this: who are you guys trying to fool, us or yourselves? Because your actions make it pretty damn obvious what your hang ups really are.
So oblique accusations of racism are okay now? Awesome, this is fun.

BTW, casting Spawn as a white guy is just as absurd. But that doesn't suit your SJW attack I suppose.
  #183  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:54 AM
Omniscient is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 17,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Those two cases show that the public is OK with female action heroes in general. It doesn't show that they're OK with any random specific action hero being female.
And where was that strawman erected?
  #184  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:59 AM
Cheesesteak's Avatar
Cheesesteak is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lovely Montclair, NJ
Posts: 13,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Would it work with Superman? Maybe, but it would take a lot of fan-wanking. I'm thinking of Smallville, where race prejudice isn't a thing and nobody thinks twice when Ma and Pa Kent adopt a black baby. But there would have also to be a substantial black community in Smallville as well. Lana Lang wasn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but if Superboy shows up and is black, and Clark Kent is the only black kid in town, even she is going to catch on to his secret identity eventually.
Who says Ma and Pa Kent have to be white? Even in 1930's Kansas, black people existed. Families even, who had friends and farms and jobs and stuff.

It's not exactly fan wanking to say that the black skinned alien baby was found by a black human family, it's just how you tell the story with a black actor in the role instead of a white actor. Write Smallville with a higher percentage of black population than would be historically accurate, OMG, inaccuracy in a superhero movie!

None of those changes are a big deal to the story or the character.
  #185  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:19 PM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
Not to mention....this a lot of hoop-jumping just to....what?? Make a black Superman work? A good Superman story should be the priority over 'making a black Superman work.'.
Sure.

And you can make a good story about a black Superman who overcomes racism, or a black Superman where nobody cares if he's black or white, or a white Superman and the story doesn't have anything to do with race because Earth has been invaded by four-dimensional space otters wearing Kryptonite tap shoes. But they are going to be different stories.

And if you don't take that into account, the movie isn't necessarily improved if you replace Meryl Streep with Whoopi Goldberg to do the voice over for the space otters.

Artistic creations need unity, says Aristotle. Thus everything in the movie has to work towards creating that unity. The more you slap stuff on because there isn't enough work for the ethnic group of your choice, the less you are working for that unity.

As the TV executives apparently said to the writers of the My Favorite Martian series -
Quote:
Please change the dialogue on page 14--a Martian wouldn't say that.
The secret of a good story is only to include the stuff that a Martian would say.

The Wild, Wild West bombed because, in part, a black Secret Service agent with his own train and magic gadgets in the 1870s wouldn't say that - or at least, he wouldn't survive if he tried.

Regards,
Shodan
Fighting a Never-Ending Battle for Truth, Justice, and the American Way, Against Multi-ethnic Space Otters
  #186  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:20 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,139
Society exists. That doesn't mean stories are immutable.

A black Superman could 100% work. You'd have to make some decisions:
-Which is more important, a Superman that lives in an America with the same history as real-world America, or a Superman that doesn't face racism?
-Which is more important, that Superman has a white adoptive family, or that Superman has an adoptive family that looks sort of like him?

Any of the answers you come up with could be really interesting. Black Spiderman 100% worked, and it worked by setting the character in a society that has some racism, but not making that racism the focal point of the story. They could equally have set the movie in an alt-New York where racism had never existed (or where it functioned in a way that didn't impact multiracial kids), but that wasn't the choice they made.

It's great seeing authors make cool new choices, especially when they do so in a way that opens up the kinds of people that make it to the big screen as big heroes.
  #187  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:26 PM
Derleth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Missoula, Montana, USA
Posts: 21,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
How you can suspend your disbelief to accept a god like alien then turn around and throw up a million and one hurdles as to why that alien shouldn't look like a black guy is confusing as hell to me. It's almost like you think this is something other than make believe.
Humans expect fiction that makes sense? SHAME AND SCANDAL!

Humans want fiction which doesn't white-wash the history of bigotry? UTTERLY INCOMPREHENSIBLE!

Humans know that Blacks were treated differently from Whites in 1939 New York City? BAN THIS SICK SHIT!

Wow. It's almost... almost... as if certain changes might, in some obscure circumstances, become... what is it... what's that term... plot relevant! Utterly amazing!
  #188  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:39 PM
Cheesesteak's Avatar
Cheesesteak is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Lovely Montclair, NJ
Posts: 13,522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
Wow. It's almost... almost... as if certain changes might, in some obscure circumstances, become... what is it... what's that term... plot relevant!
Of course changing race may be plot relevant. Characters can be written into many different plots and still be the same character.

There's nothing about the Superman character that requires him to be white in order for him to be Superman. His origin story would adjust to be race appropriate. There's nothing inherently nonsensical about that.
  #189  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:43 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 35,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Society exists. That doesn't mean stories are immutable.

A black Superman could 100% work. You'd have to make some decisions:
-Which is more important, a Superman that lives in an America with the same history as real-world America, or a Superman that doesn't face racism?
-Which is more important, that Superman has a white adoptive family, or that Superman has an adoptive family that looks sort of like him?

Any of the answers you come up with could be really interesting. Black Spiderman 100% worked, and it worked by setting the character in a society that has some racism, but not making that racism the focal point of the story. They could equally have set the movie in an alt-New York where racism had never existed (or where it functioned in a way that didn't impact multiracial kids), but that wasn't the choice they made.

It's great seeing authors make cool new choices, especially when they do so in a way that opens up the kinds of people that make it to the big screen as big heroes.
Of course. However the whole thing becomes a pretense when you say ďThis is a list of characters who could never be played by an actor who is X,Y, or Z category because of all these other decisions Iíve made about the piece that are really, seriously set in stone because I say so. Itís just an unavoidable reality that X, Y, and Z category actors are unsuited for a vast majority of roles, especially leading ones. Nothing can be done about it.Ē

The answers to the objections are generally of two types, and both might be applicableó(1) what youíre calling an impediment isnít really an impediment and you can change the race or gender or sex of the actor and still have your story (2) what youíre calling an impediment results from a decision you made, one that can be changed, so donít tell me thatís immutable.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.
  #190  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:04 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Of course. However the whole thing becomes a pretense when you say ďThis is a list of characters who could never be played by an actor who is X,Y, or Z category because of all these other decisions Iíve made about the piece that are really, seriously set in stone because I say so. Itís just an unavoidable reality that X, Y, and Z category actors are unsuited for a vast majority of roles, especially leading ones. Nothing can be done about it.Ē
Yup. As I said, it's especially cool watching people make NEW choices, especially when it opens things up.

When someone decides to make the old, cliched choice--"ooh, ooh, I know, I'll write a fantasy story starring all-white characters and set it in an analogue of medieval Europe!"--I don't get that excited. When they make choice that close things off--"ooh, ooh, I know, I'll tell a story about samurai, only instead of a Japanese protagonist I'll have a white dude as the protagonist!"--I don't get that excited.

Artists get to make choices, absolutely. But ferchrissakes, make those choices interesting; and if you work in a racist system like Hollywood, be aware of how your decisions affect the lives of actual workers in that system.
  #191  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:10 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,430
Well, ultimately, everything is a choice you made. You could choose to write stories only about four-dimensional space otters, and then race would never come up. But that doesn't mean that when someone writes a story where race does come up, you can just say "It's your own fault that race came up; you should have chosen to stick with the space otters".

Sometimes someone will say that the race of a character is absolutely inherent to the story they're trying to tell. And sometimes, when they say that, they're wrong. But sometimes, they're right.

If you're trying to tell a story about an astronaut who gets left behind on Mars and has to figure out how to survive for the year or more it'll take for rescue to get there, then sure, you can make Mark Watney black if you want: It won't change anything. If you're trying to tell a story about the astronauts on Apollo 13 who had to figure out how to survive getting back to Earth when their service module exploded, well, now race is at least somewhat relevant: The first black astronaut didn't fly until over a decade after that, which says something about the culture of NASA at the time of Apollo 13, which is at least part of the story you're trying to tell, though not necessarily the most critical part: It'd be a distraction to make Jim Lovell black, though maybe you could pull it off, if you were very, very good at it. If you're trying to tell a story about the struggles faced by NASA's first director of the IBM operating group in being accepted by NASA and society, you can't make Dorothy Vaughn white, because that defeats the entire point of the story you're trying to tell.
  #192  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:07 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Well, ultimately, everything is a choice you made. You could choose to write stories only about four-dimensional space otters, and then race would never come up. But that doesn't mean that when someone writes a story where race does come up, you can just say "It's your own fault that race came up; you should have chosen to stick with the space otters".

Sometimes someone will say that the race of a character is absolutely inherent to the story they're trying to tell. And sometimes, when they say that, they're wrong. But sometimes, they're right.

If you're trying to tell a story about an astronaut who gets left behind on Mars and has to figure out how to survive for the year or more it'll take for rescue to get there, then sure, you can make Mark Watney black if you want: It won't change anything. If you're trying to tell a story about the astronauts on Apollo 13 who had to figure out how to survive getting back to Earth when their service module exploded, well, now race is at least somewhat relevant: The first black astronaut didn't fly until over a decade after that, which says something about the culture of NASA at the time of Apollo 13, which is at least part of the story you're trying to tell, though not necessarily the most critical part: It'd be a distraction to make Jim Lovell black, though maybe you could pull it off, if you were very, very good at it. If you're trying to tell a story about the struggles faced by NASA's first director of the IBM operating group in being accepted by NASA and society, you can't make Dorothy Vaughn white, because that defeats the entire point of the story you're trying to tell.
I totally agree.

Where we get problems is when people are like, "No, I don't want race to be an issue for this character, so lemme make him white." White Superman is definitely a choice, and his character's interaction with the powers-that-be in Metropolis reflects that choice. Unless you're writing about an alt-world without racism, writing a story set in, say, the last 400 years (at least) in the United States, race is an issue, whether your story deals with it explicitly or not.

We also run into problems where people keep deciding to tell the same damn story, and as a result, the same damn people keep getting shut out of paid work.
  #193  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:08 PM
Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 35,946
(Regarding the Apollo 13 example) See, there’s where your cultural assumptions are elevating race over dozens of other factors. There are a lot of ways in which Tom Hanks and Tom Hanks’s portrayal of Jim Lovell make him different from Jom Lovell and the portrayal deviate from real life. You’re choosing to draw a line around the perceived race of the actor and make that an uncrossable boundary. It’s “distracting,” not because it’s inherently distracting but because your assumptions about race and it’s importance are making it distracting.
__________________
*I'm experimenting with E, em, and es and emself as pronouns that do not indicate any specific gender nor exclude any specific gender.

Last edited by Acsenray; 06-18-2019 at 02:09 PM.
  #194  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:38 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,430
Because that's a difference that would have been relevant in the time and place where the movie is set.

Like, I don't know what Jim Lovell's real hair color was, off the top of my head. But it doesn't matter. NASA, at the time, would have treated a brown-haired astronaut the same as they treated a blond-haired astronaut. So you can cast an actor with any hair color in the role, and not worry about it being authentic.

But NASA, at the time, would have treated a black astronaut very differently than they treated the white astronauts. So that is relevant, and so it's much more difficult to work around casting an actor of a different skin color. And it's not my assumption; it's historical truth.

Nowadays, or in the near future when The Martian is set, NASA does treat black and white astronauts in the same way, and so for a film set now or in the near future, the skin color of an actor playing an astronaut is as irrelevant as their hair color.
  #195  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:43 PM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray
(Regarding the Apollo 13 example) See, thereís where your cultural assumptions are elevating race over dozens of other factors. There are a lot of ways in which Tom Hanks and Tom Hanksís portrayal of Jim Lovell make him different from Jom Lovell and the portrayal deviate from real life. Youíre choosing to draw a line around the perceived race of the actor and make that an uncrossable boundary. Itís ďdistracting,Ē not because itís inherently distracting but because your assumptions about race and itís importance are making it distracting.
"I got a great idea! Let's remake Apollo 13, but this time we'll cast Gabourey Sidibe as Jim Lovell!"

"I'm not sure that casting will work, Bill."

"What are you, some kind of racist?"

See also: the mime version of Schindler's List, and a remake of Old Yeller starring Fritz the Wonder Hamster.

Regards,
Shodan
  #196  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:51 PM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 173
You guys realize this is make believe, right? You can literally make the story to be anything you want it to be?

If you can't envision a black superman without having to change the story at all then that is a failure of your imagination and a product of your personal hang ups.

You can sit there and say you want your superhero stories to make sense and not white wash history (think about that for second) but the only thing stopping it from making sense is your sense of what is right and wrong.
  #197  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:58 PM
kaylasdad99 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 31,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Look, I know all white people look alike, but ... that was Scarlett Johanssen.


But...but the Major has PURPLE hair. Scarlett is a BLONDE...



So is Charlize, of course. I knew that.
  #198  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:07 PM
you with the face is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
And they get to ride that argument on the back of people who combine their biases with their failures of imagination to say "oh, believe me, it just won't work."

No, actually, there's no reason to believe you.

A black man just can't be a leading man. Will Smith leads some fairly successful action films. (But!but!but! Will Smith is the only black leading man who will travel! )

A superhero movie can't be headlined a black man. Black Panther becomes the second highest grossing superhero movies of all time.

A superhero movie can't be headlined by a woman. Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel are the 9th and 10th highest grossing superhero movies of all time.

Can't can't can't. Until it can. Oh, that's an exception. Meanwhile all the bombs that were led by white men somehow are always exceptions.
This is an excellent post. Take a bow.
  #199  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:26 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Yet again, Titletown
Posts: 22,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Like, I don't know what Jim Lovell's real hair color was, off the top of my head. But it doesn't matter. NASA, at the time, would have treated a brown-haired astronaut the same as they treated a blond-haired astronaut. So you can cast an actor with any hair color in the role, and not worry about it being authentic.

But NASA, at the time, would have treated a black astronaut very differently than they treated the white astronauts. So that is relevant, and so it's much more difficult to work around casting an actor of a different skin color. And it's not my assumption; it's historical truth.
If you knew Jim Lovell personally, Tom Hanks' portrayal may have pulled you out of the movie due to hair color, mannerisms, or accent. But 99.9% of the public doesn't know the real astronauts so it isn't a problem.

I would argue that some large percentage of the movie going public today has no real idea of how black astronauts would have been treated at NASA in the 1960's (or don't really care about a movie's portrayal) and so a black actor portraying Lovell wouldn't bother them. The story isn't fundamentally changed by this one historically inaccurate element.

The Sgt Rock comic book had an African-American soldier introduced in 1961, 13 years after Truman fully integrated the military. While there were some black soldiers serving along side white soldiers in WWII at times (which is when the comic was set) it wasn't as depicted in the comic. I'm sure it brought some people out of the moment, but to most young comic readers of the day I don't think they cared that it was historically inaccurate. The writers didn't ignore race, but neither did they let the past dictate how they told their story.
  #200  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:26 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,455
Wow. I never thought I'd have to be on this side of the debate, defending when it is appropriate not to change the race. But them's the breaks.

Yes, obviously, you can choose to make a character be whatever you want. But that's with new characters. This thread is clearly about preexisting characters. So it does boil down to "is their race important?" They already have some story already, and it matters whether or not that story is changed by a change in race. They already have a character, and it matters whether the character will change.

Sometimes, the change just doesn't really matter. Other times, it matters, but that's the point. But sometimes it matters in such a way that, if you're not making a specific point, you might as well make a new character with a new story.

Superman being black? That definitely changes things. Even if we keep him being found by farmers in Kansas, one of two things will happen: he'll be found by black parents, and then face the racism of a small town, or he'll be found by white parents, and have the unique experience there. Either can happen, but it becomes the point of the story. It becomes "What if Superman were black?" If that's not your point, then you'd probably keep him white, where his backstory can remain unchanged. (Sure, you could rewrite the world not to have that racism, but then it will feel like whitewashing racism, so that's not a great idea.) I would be fine either way.

Now making Hermione Granger black? Meh. It was the 1990s, and she spent most of her formative years in a magical world where the racism is of a different kind. It would be easy for anything that would be different for her being black just to not show up in the stories. Especially assuming she remains middle class, the daughter of dentists.

Super Mario being Latino: changes nothing really. He's only ever in this magical world, and it can just not have racism. No big deal. The only thing that changes is his stereotypical phrases and accent. Maybe he says "ay ay ay" when he gets killed instead of "Mama mia!"

Archie Bunker becomes Asian? That's a completely different character, even more so that Superman. Even if you're wanting to tell a story about an Asian with similar bigotries, you might as well make him a different person. I mean, he's gonna have to have a different name, even. Why pretend he's the same guy? The only reason I can see to do it is some stunt colorblind casting, probably for comedic purposes, and I wouldn't trust that type of comedy to not actually be bigoted.

I'm sure there are other ideas. But surely at least that last one gets the point across, without needing to be about playing a real life person. Archie Bunker's whiteness is essential to the role.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017