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Old 10-01-2018, 09:46 PM
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On “crime and punishment “


Ok. I get there is some octopus fatigue. Maybe rightfully so, but I have an idea partially but not completely inspired by the Starving Artist bad.

Perhaps the deliberations involved with bannings or suspensions are actually counterproductive. Since the sanction is felt to be relatively harsh borderline cases sometimes aren’t dealt with and the time it takes to go through a penalty progression may cause others to felt like their concerns aren’t taken seriously.

My proposal is a quicker trigger finger on suspension. And make them a week or a month or so. Give people a chance to cool down. It gives people a chance to reflect. It stops fights before they get way too serious. Furthermore, with quicker and longer suspensions you might not need to ban as often.

A few days ago when I was annoyed with a particular conversation I probably could have used, rightly or wrongly, a quick 1 week suspension. No warning, no mark on the permanent record, no topic ban. Just a “shut up, octopus, take a 1 week break. Do some housework and play with your kids” might have done me some good lol.

Anyways, just a thought.

Last edited by octopus; 10-01-2018 at 09:46 PM.
  #2  
Old 10-01-2018, 09:47 PM
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You don't need the mods for that. Just spray a cloud of noxious ink and jet.
  #3  
Old 10-01-2018, 10:06 PM
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{...} And make them a week or a month or so. {...}
The same length they are now.....I think you're on to something there!

CMC fnord!
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:20 PM
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The same length they are now.....I think you're on to something there!

CMC fnord!
I think if you read and respond to the whole post instead of joining LHoD in an attempt to make this comedy hour you’d see that it’s nowhere near the same. But you knew that.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:30 PM
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I think if you read and respond to the whole post instead of joining LHoD in an attempt to make this comedy hour you’d see that it’s nowhere near the same. But you knew that.
Oh, I did! It sounds like you don't want mods, you want parents. Someone to give you a time out so you don't have to be the one that moderates your behavior. And this "No warning, no mark on the permanent record, no topic ban." so that these 'go sit in the corners' are meaningless and you can be free to come back after and not have changed your behavior, consequence free.

That ain't how this works.

CMC fnord!

Last edited by crowmanyclouds; 10-01-2018 at 10:32 PM.
  #6  
Old 10-01-2018, 10:35 PM
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Oh, I did! It sounds like you don't want mods, you want parents. Someone to give you a time out so you don't have to be the one that moderates your behavior. And this "No warning, no mark on the permanent record, no topic ban." so that these 'go sit in the corners' are meaningless and you can be free to come back after and not having changed your behavior, consequence free.

That ain't how this works.

CMC fnord!
Wrong. It’s a proposal for more flexibility for the mods so they can act much quicker. You can still get warnings. You can still get bans. But a quicker ability to suspend without it being a serious mark does many things. Which I’ve already mentioned in the OP.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:42 PM
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We track suspensions too. Just saying.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:49 PM
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We track suspensions too. Just saying.
I know that.

Maybe the premise is dumb or too subtle. I just think that the severity of the punishment can lead to too much reluctance and that more granularity and speed, especially if the summary suspension wasn’t considered as serious as a warning then suspension, would lead to a better overall outcome for all considered.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:50 PM
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I think he is proposing a new type of suspension - a time out, if you will - that is not tracked. For those times when one is being an ass, but shouldn't get a suspension.
  #10  
Old 10-01-2018, 11:03 PM
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Isn't the 'don't be a jerk' rule sustainable in a a Jerk-suspension, kinda thing? If you have no filter, for whatever reason ( drunk, ill, mad at the world) the mods could come in and say, "you're being a jerk, get lost for 24, 36, or 48 hours" or any arbitrary time. It could save face for some posters and provide a cool-down period for everyone. Seems to me, anyway.
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Old 10-01-2018, 11:04 PM
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Like crowmanyclouds has said. He can already do that himself.
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Old 10-01-2018, 11:08 PM
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Some peeps just cannot shut-up . I am like that, funny enough, just on this board. I am really very quiet IRL. Luckily, I am extremely nice. So no one minds very much. ( You know it's true)
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Old 10-01-2018, 11:14 PM
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Isn't the 'don't be a jerk' rule sustainable in a a Jerk-suspension, kinda thing? If you have no filter, for whatever reason ( drunk, ill, mad at the world) the mods could come in and say, "you're being a jerk, get lost for 24, 36, or 48 hours" or any arbitrary time. It could save face for some posters and provide a cool-down period for everyone. Seems to me, anyway.
Exactly. You and sunny daze are getting it and not just here to be snarky. Thank you.
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Old 10-01-2018, 11:18 PM
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It's a fine suggestion. There are many tools in the toolbox, and temporary suspensions (typically 3 days) are one of those tools.
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Old 10-01-2018, 11:25 PM
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I think he is proposing a new type of suspension - a time out, if you will - that is not tracked. For those times when one is being an ass, but shouldn't get a suspension.
Isn't that what the mods' "throat-clearing" posts are for? When they don't give us a warning but admonish us informally to dial it back?

ISTM that grownups should be able to obey that instruction without the added discipline of being insta-suspended. If one can't ease up on being an ass when a mod specifically tells one to, unless one's posting privileges are temporarily removed, then maybe one needs to think about one's choices, yeah?
  #16  
Old 10-01-2018, 11:27 PM
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I think it's a good idea. I know I probably should have been shut down a few times - once I get my fur in a whirl, I have been known to go too far with whatever point I was trying to make, especially if I'm in the Pit. And while self policing SHOULD be the way it works, sometimes in the heat of the moment, it doesn't happen.
  #17  
Old 10-01-2018, 11:27 PM
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Isn't that what the mods' "throat-clearing" posts are for? When they don't give us a warning but admonish us informally to dial it back?

ISTM that grownups should be able to obey that instruction without the added discipline of being insta-suspended. If one can't ease up on being an ass when a mod specifically tells one to, unless one's posting privileges are temporarily removed, then maybe one needs to think about one's choices, yeah?
Grownups shouldn’t need warnings, notes, or safe spaces. But since that is demonstrably not the case ridiculing finer granularity and speed is helpful and productive conversation in what manner?
  #18  
Old 10-01-2018, 11:52 PM
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Grownups shouldn’t need warnings
I disagree. Anybody can get caught up in the heat of discussion and cross a line now and then. But when a mod explicitly and personally tells you to shut up about it, what's so hard about just shutting up about it?

I certainly won't protest the establishment of an insta-suspend mod action if the mods decide we need it. But NGL, it does strike me as falling on the far side of the referee/nanny divide.
  #19  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:05 AM
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A few days ago when I was annoyed with a particular conversation I probably could have used, rightly or wrongly, a quick 1 week suspension. No warning, no mark on the permanent record, no topic ban.
Gosh, I wonder where this is going...
  #20  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:08 AM
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Gosh, I wonder where this is going...
If you don’t have anything helpful or on topic to post then what are you doing? Could you please stay on topic?
  #21  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:12 AM
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If you don’t have anything helpful or on topic to post then what are you doing? Could you please stay on topic?
Did I quote your OP? Did I emphasise part of what you said to bring out one underlying, unstated implication of your proposed action? Why, I think I did. Perfectly on topic.

Or since you seem to need it stated out clearly : I think the topic ban is a much more fitting sanction for misogynous posting than a one-week suspension.
  #22  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:13 AM
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Grownups shouldn’t need warnings, notes, or safe spaces.
Grown ups also shouldn't need a mod to insta-suspend them to protect them from themselves. They should, you know, act like a grown up.

Last edited by Drunky Smurf; 10-02-2018 at 12:14 AM.
  #23  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:20 AM
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Grownups shouldn’t need warnings, notes, or safe spaces. But since that is demonstrably not the case ridiculing finer granularity and speed is helpful and productive conversation in what manner?
I've read the bolded bit a few times and cannot for the life of me fathom what it is meant to mean. Now maybe I am just particularly dense this afternoon, I'd never discount that possibility, but could you clarify for me please?

Cheers
  #24  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:32 AM
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Did I quote your OP? Did I emphasise part of what you said to bring out one underlying, unstated implication of your proposed action? Why, I think I did. Perfectly on topic.

Or since you seem to need it stated out clearly : I think the topic ban is a much more fitting sanction for misogynous posting than a one-week suspension.
Because you are derailing the thread by fixating on one tiny and, frankly, superfluous aspect of my post. Your continued argument against unstated implications as some great truth is tedious.


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Grown ups also shouldn't need a mod to insta-suspend them to protect them from themselves. They should, you know, act like a grown up.
Yet, you needed engineer_comp_geek to advise you to shut up for the night. Which to your credit, you did.

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I've read the bolded bit a few times and cannot for the life of me fathom what it is meant to mean. Now maybe I am just particularly dense this afternoon, I'd never discount that possibility, but could you clarify for me please?

Cheers
Sure. Since we have a board with mods, which grown ups shouldn't need, and some of what the mods do include sanctions such as suspensions, bannings, warnings, or "shut up, Drunky, for the night" (which again grown ups shouldn't need) then further options that grown ups shouldn't need might actually be a good idea and not an idea that needs reflexive ridiculing from the same ol' gang.

Last edited by octopus; 10-02-2018 at 12:32 AM.
  #25  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:38 AM
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Sure. Since we have a board with mods, which grown ups shouldn't need, and some of what the mods do include sanctions such as suspensions, bannings, warnings, or "shut up, Drunky, for the night" (which again grown ups shouldn't need) then further options that grown ups shouldn't need might actually be a good idea and not an idea that needs reflexive ridiculing from the same ol' gang.
Am I reading you right? So we have a board, with mods, who dish out sanctions sometimes and you want more options for the mods? What other options could there be?

Oh, PS, 'Shut up Drunky' is a board meme now. Maybe you should lurk a bit more and post a bit less until you are au fait with board culture, just sayin'.
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Old 10-02-2018, 12:38 AM
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Grown ups also shouldn't need a mod to insta-suspend them to protect them from themselves. They should, you know, act like a grown up.
Didn't you just ...
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Old 10-02-2018, 12:42 AM
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Am I reading you right? So we have a board, with mods, who dish out sanctions sometimes and you want more options for the mods? What other options could there be?
AFAICT the proposal is for what's been variously called a "time out" or "jerk suspension" or "insta-suspension", where the mods can immediately shut down your posting privileges for a brief period (say, 12-36 hours) without prior deliberations or warnings.
  #28  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:46 AM
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Am I reading you right? So we have a board, with mods, who dish out sanctions sometimes and you want more options for the mods? What other options could there be?

Oh, PS, 'Shut up Drunky' is a board meme now. Maybe you should lurk a bit more and post a bit less until you are au fait with board culture, just sayin'.
It was obvious in the my OP. I'm honestly not sure what is difficult about this. There is no way I can write "decide and act quicker in order to defuse but with less long term ramifications" than I already have.

And when e_c_g told Drunky to stop posting for the night after a, and this might be a record, triple-triple post I doubt he was memeing. But I've been wrong before.
  #29  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:54 AM
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{...} What other options could there be? {...}
Well, there is the washing out with soap for the potty mouths.

CMC fnord!
  #30  
Old 10-02-2018, 12:57 AM
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AFAICT the proposal is for what's been variously called a "time out" or "jerk suspension" or "insta-suspension", where the mods can immediately shut down your posting privileges for a brief period (say, 12-36 hours) without prior deliberations or warnings.
That's always been an option! I got an insta-suspension years ago by the esteemed Lynn Bodoni for wishing everyone a 'Happy Fucking New Year' in the Pit. She deemed it a joke thread and BOOM, I was banished for a week.

  #31  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:10 AM
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I found it!!

Happy Fucking New Year

Where 'ere you are Lynn, I shall always remember you.
  #32  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:53 AM
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Didn't you just ...
Didn't I just what?

Come on, be a man now, and actually say what you mean.

Don't be one of those "icky little girls" and just "tee-hee" and hint at what you actually want to say.

Be a MAN.

And say it.

Or are you actually too scared to be a real man and reveal your hand to the mods about what you actually are?

You too, like Starving Artist, have Pit threads about you where many people complain about how you interact with this board.

Last edited by Drunky Smurf; 10-02-2018 at 01:55 AM.
  #33  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:13 AM
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Didn't I just what?

Come on, be a man now, and actually say what you mean.

Don't be one of those "icky little girls" and just "tee-hee" and hint at what you actually want to say.

Be a MAN.

And say it.
I have confidence that an astute observer can figure it out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf View Post
Or are you actually too scared to be a real man and reveal your hand to the mods about what you actually are?
I don't know what you're imagining, but it sounds like you're way off base, which is about par for the course with your posts. I suppose the irony of following up your "be a man and say it" rant with this "what you actually are" hinting is entirely lost on you. Pity.

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You too, like Starving Artist, have Pit threads about you where many people complain about how you interact with this board.
Well then I guess it's a good thing that I've recently been reassured by the mods that the mewling there doesn't matter.
  #34  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:26 AM
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Because you are derailing the thread by fixating on one tiny and, frankly, superfluous aspect of my post.
That your proposal would mean you would not have received the permanent injunction you currently labour under is hardly a superfluous aspect. I would say it's probably the entire point of the thread.

Quote:
Your continued argument against unstated implications as some great truth is tedious.
You level of boredom is not my concern.

Making it clear to other posters, and the mods, that this is, IMO, just a thinly-disguised second thread of complaint about the severity of your topic ban, is.
  #35  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:32 AM
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That your proposal would mean you would not have received the permanent injunction you currently labour under is hardly a superfluous aspect. I would say it's probably the entire point of the thread.

You level of boredom is not my concern.

Making it clear to other posters, and the mods, that this is, IMO, just a thinly-disguised second thread of complaint about the severity of your topic ban, is.
What are you going on about? You calling me a liar? I told you that my topic ban in ATMB, for questioning the mod note mind you, was completely superfluous to my OP. I am sure your concern is not needed because the mods and other posters should be able to read.
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Old 10-02-2018, 02:37 AM
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Can we reinstate SA as swapsies for Octopus and HD? Two for one, good deal, at least he was able to present a semi-coherent argument (as shocking as it was). These others are just word-salads.

  #37  
Old 10-02-2018, 02:53 AM
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What are you going on about?
Your OP.
Quote:
You calling me a liar?
I think you're being disingenuous, so I think you could say I'm saying that, yes.
Quote:
I told you that my topic ban in ATMB, for questioning the mod note mind you, was completely superfluous to my OP.
I don't believe you.

Especially since that little qualification clause makes it clear you still don't get that it was an appropriate sanction.
Quote:
I am sure your concern is not needed because the mods and other posters should be able to read.
I agree completely. I'm giving my opinion, not telling people what to think.

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-02-2018 at 02:55 AM.
  #38  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:11 AM
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But, yeah, I've said my piece, I'll happily bow out of this thread for now.
  #39  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:47 AM
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“Protect me from what I want” — Jenny Holzer

Sometimes, some grownups could use a “nanny.” I think the OP’s idea should be implemented sometimes — another tool in the toolbox, as Bone put it.
  #40  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:53 AM
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I think if you read and respond to the whole post instead of joining LHoD in an attempt to make this comedy hour you’d see that it’s nowhere near the same. But you knew that.
So yeah, I was trying to be clever, fair call. But what I was saying--that you have the control to leave the boards whenever you feel the need, and you can even leave an angry spray of toxic ink (or angry burst of toxic pixels, I suppose) behind you--is true.

If behavior is bad enough to earn a suspension, I absolutely think it should be tracked. Someone who regularly shows that little self-control isn't necessarily someone who should get to stay around.
  #41  
Old 10-02-2018, 06:10 AM
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I know that.

Maybe the premise is dumb or too subtle. I just think that the severity of the punishment can lead to too much reluctance and that more granularity and speed, especially if the summary suspension wasn’t considered as serious as a warning then suspension, would lead to a better overall outcome for all considered.
I think this board is already far too tolerant of trolls and giving them even more rope is the last thing we need. SA trolled for over a decade here, I’m hoping we go in the opposite direction and don’t wait ten years before we ban the other racist, sexist obvious trolls here. If you’re an adult and can’t take you’re own break from the internet, you need therapy.
  #42  
Old 10-02-2018, 06:50 AM
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I found it!!

Happy Fucking New Year

Where 'ere you are Lynn, I shall always remember you.
Happy Fucking New Year!
Cheers.

On topic: Suspensions used judiciously are a fine thing. But I see them useful in situations where a quality poster is drunk off their ass and posting in a way that suggests suicide by mod.
  #43  
Old 10-02-2018, 07:11 AM
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The search for the proper balance between allowing all parties to be heard and curtailing trolls is a never ending one. I've always believed that, when dealing with the application of censorship, it is better to err on the side of free speech.

The ultimate truth is that, "You can't legislate morality." No matter what kind of system is in place, there are always going to be problems if you have participants who have no desire to exercise a code of behavior that is not divisive and destructive .

A good team is made up of good players. A bad team isn't. It's on us, not "rule makers". More rules or different rules aren't going to change anything.

Last edited by Jasmine; 10-02-2018 at 07:11 AM.
  #44  
Old 10-02-2018, 07:17 AM
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Sure, free and breezy short suspensions can be useful but I don't see them as a replacement for things in your list and think having no record of them is ridiculous. A topic ban, to take one example, comes after a history of a noticeable pattern. If the mods have to give you a week long suspension every time a declawing thread comes up then a topic ban seems the wiser option.

On the other hand, there's a poster or two who could use a daily 10pm-3am EST suspension. Could that be automated? Lol.
  #45  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:26 AM
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The OP isn’t proposing anything much different than what we do now. Each circumstance is different and we reserve the right to deal with it in the best way possible at the time. But we are not going to be giving our consequence free suspensions.
  #46  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:29 AM
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Happy Fucking New Year!
Cheers.

On topic: Suspensions used judiciously are a fine thing. But I see them useful in situations where a quality poster is drunk off their ass and posting in a way that suggests suicide by mod.
It’s happened. One of those things where we reserve the right to handle it the way a situation dictates. We have placed people in a short time out. It’s infrequently needed.

Last edited by Loach; 10-02-2018 at 10:31 AM.
  #47  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:50 AM
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To the timeout issue, another message board I frequented had a special method for handling that. The poster was blocked from posting to the main board, but they had their own little forum where they could rant to their heart's content. The timeout usually lasted 12 hours.

When the timeout was over, the special forum was simply deleted, and the poster returned to full posting status.

Most of the time, people came back apologetic and thankful that their ranting wouldn't be seen by all and sundry. A very few came back madder than ever.


As I understand it, the staff here don't have permissions to implement such changes, but a simple 12 hour suspension would accomplish much the same thing.
  #48  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:40 AM
El_Kabong's Avatar
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The more rules there are, the more there are opportunities to complain about the rules.

Currently it appears the Mods have some sort of group discussion before implementing serious measures such as suspensions. IMO unilateral insta-suspensions will surely result in loud complaints of suppression of speech, favoritism by certain Mods toward or against specific posters, etc. Hell, there's more than enough of that already in the current system.

Maybe one of the Mods can confirm this, but my impression is that most suspensions don't have that much of an effect anyway. That is, a large proportion of suspended posters, if not a majority, fail to modify their behavior and end up permanently banned.

Since S_A's case was mentioned, he seems like one for whom such a suspension would be unlikely to be effective. IIRC, he had repeatedly stated that he supposedly didn't care what anyone thought about his posting habits and that he was constantly being singled out solely for being on the "wrong" end of the political spectrum.
  #49  
Old 10-02-2018, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
The OP isn’t proposing anything much different than what we do now. Each circumstance is different and we reserve the right to deal with it in the best way possible at the time. But we are not going to be giving our consequence free suspensions.
Thanks for the response. Consequence free was not to be consequence free in all cases. It was more a mechanism to allow mods to not worry about having a heavy hand on borderline cases or just in terms of general annoyance at the moment. That’s why I brought myself up. There are times I get persistent on a topic but not to the point a warning is justified. Yet my persistence can be perceived as detrimental. The increased speed of action due to less long term ramifications is what I was thinking as being of utility.

Sometimes you just get a bug up the butt and need 12-36 hours to crap it out away from the forums.

Again, thanks for the response.
  #50  
Old 10-05-2018, 07:17 PM
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I dunno, seems to me that when an adult comes to realize he has been "fatiguing" people, the onus is on him to change his behaviour, not suggest others change theirs.
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