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Old 05-29-2019, 08:47 AM
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That Policeman in Arkansas [manner of holding a handgun]


What is with that sideways gangster grip? Is that to prevent a tophat malfunction. (Has anyone here had a tophat malfunction?) Is this some sort of new thing, or is he imitating a McBain movie?
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:58 AM
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Sorry, no idea who or what you're talking about.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:02 AM
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Please forgive me, I thought it was all the rage at the moment. He is a link to Reddit. Oddly I cannot find a good YouTube link.

Link
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:07 AM
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Need more info. I'm in Arkansas and don't know what you're referring to. Can't open reddit.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:14 AM
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This story?

No idea why he's holding his firearm like that. Not any training I'm aware of.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Patch View Post
This story?

No idea why he's holding his firearm like that. Not any training I'm aware of.
Yes, that one, and thank you. I seem inept this afternoon. Ramadan woozy I suppose.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
What is with that sideways gangster grip? Is that to prevent a tophat malfunction. (Has anyone here had a tophat malfunction?) Is this some sort of new thing, or is he imitating a McBain movie?
Based on how the cop handled the situation, I vote McBain. Truitt was brilliant, "You're telling me to shut the car off so you can shoot me."
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:31 AM
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I think he's trying to hold the gun up high, near the flashlight, and angled down through the window, and holding the gun upright at the same time would be awkward.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:33 AM
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WAG, he is aiming the pistol over the car window which is partially rolled down. That would be a more comfortable way to achieve that angle than straight on.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:18 AM
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Thread title edited to indicate subject. Please use descriptive thread titles. Also, don't assume anyone has seen something that you have.

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Old 05-29-2019, 10:23 AM
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Thread title edited to indicate subject. Please use descriptive thread titles. Also, don't assume anyone has seen something that you have.

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Sorry. I really messed that up.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:25 AM
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The other question is what is a "tophat malfunction"?
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:28 AM
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I think he is just holding the pistol and flashlight while he uses the radio. His finger is not inside the trigger guard.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:58 AM
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The officer is holding his weapon with a side grip. It is not great method for effectively firing a handgun, but has been used primarily in movies so that the actors faces can be more effectively seen by the camera. As such the grip is copied by many gang bangers who replicate what they see in the movies, and apparently by some stupid police officers.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:01 AM
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Audio isn't working for me on that link but it's really telling that the officer looked away. If Truitt had had a gun the officer would have kept his eyes on Truitt.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:11 AM
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Based upon the video, it does appear that the officer overreacted. From another article, the suspect did have a gun in the car, but he claims it was out of reach. Uncertain if the gun was legal.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:12 AM
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Never heard of a tophat malfunction. Are you thinking of a stovepipe malfunction where the casing fails to eject fully and gets stuck in the opening on the slide? That grip would only make it more likely to happen.They usually occur with a weak grip allowing the pistol to rock in the hand.

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Old 05-29-2019, 11:13 AM
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Audio isn't working for me on that link ...
The audio is muted by default. There's a little speaker icon in the lower right to enable the sound.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
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The other question is what is a "tophat malfunction"?
While filming the movie Top Hat, Ginger Rogers had a wardrobe malfunction.

Quote:
When working on the 1935 movie Top Hat, Rogers insisted on wearing a gown covered with ostrich feathers for a major dance sequence, working with the idea that the embellishments would complement her movements. Unfortunately, she never wore the dress to rehearse, and there wound up being a bit too much movement—to the point that feathers were flying off as she danced. The shedding dress was so distracting to Astaire that he snapped and yelled at Rogers, making her burst into tears.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:17 AM
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Has anyone here had a tophat malfunction?
I've heard this referred to as a stovepipe malfunction. Where the ejected casing doesn't eject, but stays in the weapon and gets lodged in the ejection port.
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:54 PM
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Please forgive me, I thought it was all the rage at the moment. He is a link to Reddit. Oddly I cannot find a good YouTube link.

Link
He looks like he's trying to index his shooting hand with his flashlight hand, and doing a poor job of it. There are other, better techniques for doing this. I practice using the Harries technique, which seems natural for me. (Others disagree: see, https://www.guns.com/news/2015/01/27...ight-technique) The cited critique of the Harries mentions that a downside of it is the potential to rest the flashlight hand against the pistol slide.

The officer in the reddit video looks like they're doing a more extreme version of that, which I'd first attribute to great stress being felt by the officer. EDIT: I really doubt the officer was trained to do that technique that way. If the officer is under great stress, with accompanying tunnel vision, adrenaline dump, and cognitive issues, it becomes easier to understand---but not condone---why the officer claimed to see a gun when there obviously wasn't one.

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 05-29-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:04 PM
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And now I read upthread where, there was a firearm present in the car, but it was 'out of reach'. Uh-huh, OK.

Something got the officer thinking gun, and rattled him enough to do whatever half-assed thing he was doing with the light, weapon, and radio. Messing around with a firearm in the vehicle interior before the officer approached, or even rooting around in the interior for, say, registration and proof of insurance, or to get your phone playing to Facebook Live, might be enough to get that response from the officer. Especially if he sees something like the out of reach firearm in the car, on his way up to the window.
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:14 PM
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And now I read upthread where, there was a firearm present in the car, but it was 'out of reach'. Uh-huh, OK.

....
Can you explain what this means? It seems to imply that you don't believe something about the story. Open carry is apparently legal in Arkansas without a permit, so I would expect that cops see guns within reach, out of reach, etc., all the time. Since it's legal, seeing a gun in a car shouldn't raise any extra suspicions, right? Just curious about what you were saying up there.
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:19 PM
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Can you explain what this means? It seems to imply that you don't believe something about the story. Open carry is apparently legal in Arkansas without a permit, so I would expect that cops see guns within reach, out of reach, etc., all the time. Since it's legal, seeing a gun in a car shouldn't raise any extra suspicions, right? Just curious about what you were saying up there.
Well, there's seeing a gun, and then there's seeing a gun. Especially when the reddit article starts out with a bit about lying POS cop yelling "Gun!" at first, and only changing his mind once he figures out he's on Facebook Live. The story changes if there's actually a gun in the car.

I am not familiar with Arkansas laws on open carry, specifically how they intersect with laws against brandishing. I am familiar with how Texas does it. Here comes a bit of statutory language from the Texas Penal Code:
Quote:
Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun or club; and

(2) is not:

(A) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or

(B) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster;...
From here: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.46.htm

Let's parse this. Without a License to Carry a Handgun, one may carry a handgun on or about the person (which I believe extends to anywhere in reach, so in the passenger cabin), if the handgun is not in plain view. It needs to be concealed: glovebox, holster in your waistband, in your backpack on the floor: it just needs to not be seen. OTOH, in plain view, one needs a LTC, which is just a renamed concealed carry permit (requires mild background check, not a felon, not a wife beater, etc...), and the weapon must be carried in a belt or shoulder holster. Rolling around on the floor of the passenger compartment or sticking out of a map pocket won't count. Further, when the officer sees said weapon in plain view, on your person or out of reach, the officer is entitled to see if the possessor has a LTC. Those are just a few ways one could be breaking the law, while 'openly carrying' in Texas, even though 'Texas allows open carry.'

Arkansas allows open carry without a permit, you say. Well, that's quite different from Texas, and I'd like to know how AR distinguishes legal open carry from brandishing. Is it legal to have an holstered firearm sitting next to you on the seat in AR? How about unholstered? Is the presence of that firearm in plain view sufficient to allow the officer to confiscate it temporarily for the duration of the stop, for officer safety? I don't know.

I do know, from my own experiences in Texas, that a holstered concealed handgun possessed by the driver is not a big deal: the driver/registered owner having an LTC comes up when the registered owner of the vehicle is discovered, and so does proof of insurance, which is nice; "Mr. GG, I understand you have a LTC, is there a weapon in the car?" "It's on you? Don't touch yours, and I won't touch mine." Etc... But then I'm not holding a phone in my hand, my hands are on the steering wheel as soon as I grab my credentials, and I'm not initially claiming there's no weapon present, but wait there is, it's just out of reach.

My comment though was more annoyance at how the reddit story was initially spun, and also an inference of, if there actually was a weapon in the car, even though the headline of the video said there wasn't, what else is the video publisher leaving out of their account?
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:25 PM
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Well, there's seeing a gun, and then there's seeing a gun. Especially when the reddit article starts out with a bit about lying POS cop yelling "Gun!" at first, and only changing his mind once he figures out he's on Facebook Live. The story changes if there's actually a gun in the car.

I am not familiar with Arkansas laws on open carry, specifically how they intersect with laws against brandishing. I am familiar with how Texas does it. Here comes a bit of statutory language from the Texas Penal Code:

From here: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.46.htm

Let's parse this. Without a License to Carry a Handgun, one may carry a handgun on or about the person (which I believe extends to anywhere in reach, so in the passenger cabin), if the handgun is not in plain view. It needs to be concealed: glovebox, holster in your waistband, in your backpack on the floor: it just needs to not be seen. OTOH, in plain view, one needs a LTC, which is just a renamed concealed carry permit (requires mild background check, not a felon, not a wife beater, etc...), and the weapon must be carried in a belt or shoulder holster. Rolling around on the floor of the passenger compartment or sticking out of a map pocket won't count. Further, when the officer sees said weapon in plain view, on your person or out of reach, the officer is entitled to see if the possessor has a LTC. Those are just a few ways one could be breaking the law, while 'openly carrying' in Texas, even though 'Texas allows open carry.'

Arkansas allows open carry without a permit, you say. Well, that's quite different from Texas, and I'd like to know how AR distinguishes legal open carry from brandishing. Is it legal to have an holstered firearm sitting next to you on the seat in AR? How about unholstered? Is the presence of that firearm in plain view sufficient to allow the officer to confiscate it temporarily for the duration of the stop, for officer safety? I don't know.

I do know, from my own experiences in Texas, that a holstered concealed handgun possessed by the driver is not a big deal: the driver/registered owner having an LTC comes up when the registered owner of the vehicle is discovered, and so does proof of insurance, which is nice; "Mr. GG, I understand you have a LTC, is there a weapon in the car?" "It's on you? Don't touch yours, and I won't touch mine." Etc... But then I'm not holding a phone in my hand, my hands are on the steering wheel as soon as I grab my credentials, and I'm not initially claiming there's no weapon present, but wait there is, it's just out of reach.

My comment though was more annoyance at how the reddit story was initially spun, and also an inference of, if there actually was a weapon in the car, even though the headline of the video said there wasn't, what else is the video publisher leaving out of their account?
This is really veering away from GQ territory, so I'll say two things:

1. Texas law on open or concealed carry is entirely irrelevant. It's my understanding that in Arkansas, you may open carry without any permit whatsoever. I don't know how he could have been brandishing if one hand was up in the air and the other was carrying the phone.
2. Maybe we should continue this conversation in the Pit thread about Controversial Encounters. It's not that I want to start a fight, but your answer had almost nothing GQ-worthy that I can respond to.
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:41 PM
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Given that this thread has veered away from the way the gun was being held to wider issues, let's move this over to Great Debates.

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Old 05-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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The other question is what is a "tophat malfunction"?
Here's a still image of this rare but extremely dangerous phenomenon.
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Old 05-29-2019, 07:50 PM
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Thank you all very much. I am very sorry I so messed up my question in so many ways. I will try to do better.
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Old 06-03-2019, 06:11 PM
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While filming the movie Top Hat, Ginger Rogers had a wardrobe malfunction.

When working on the 1935 movie Top Hat, Rogers insisted on wearing a gown covered with ostrich feathers for a major dance sequence, working with the idea that the embellishments would complement her movements. Unfortunately, she never wore the dress to rehearse, and there wound up being a bit too much movement—to the point that feathers were flying off as she danced. The shedding dress was so distracting to Astaire that he snapped and yelled at Rogers, making her burst into tears.
Brian Eno designed his early Roxy Music costume with feathers sticking out at oblique angles. But he wasn't dancing and making them fall off. He designed the costume to produce visual appeal from a very restricted set of small movements, controlling a synthesizer. In his case, there were no feathers flying.
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Old 06-03-2019, 06:21 PM
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It is not great method for effectively firing a handgun, but has been used primarily in movies so that the actors faces can be more effectively seen by the camera. As such the grip is copied by many gang bangers who replicate what they see in the movies, and apparently by some stupid police officers.
"Hey, Chief, can I hold my gun sideways? It looks so cool."

Last edited by digs; 06-03-2019 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 06-04-2019, 04:14 AM
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"Hey, Chief, can I hold my gun sideways? It looks so cool."
I'm reminded of one of my favorite Onion headlines: Water Pistol Fired Using Sideways Gangsta Grip.
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