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  #501  
Old 07-07-2019, 01:29 AM
CAH66 is offline
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Stan Lee created a crap-ton of characters. People who know comics only from the movies, or who have only been into the past 10-20 years, often aren't aware of that. In the 1960's and '70's Lee created new characters - both hero and villain - about as often as he ate breakfast. So not only is that statement believable it is also consistent with reality as it actually happened.

It was also a reason for a lot of friction between Lee and the other people working at Marvel - he'd dash out an idea for a new character, someone else would flesh it out, and Lee would be off creating another character, then later make statements that sounded like he was taking all the credit for all of them and not mentioning the work other people put into the characters which often had as much if not more to do with their popularity than Lee's contribution. Which is why a lot of characters are now credited as created by "[Insert Name of Artist/Writer] and Stan Lee"

Stan Lee is in one sense a personal hero to me. He created, shaped, or influenced so many stories that I grew up on that I unquestionably owe him a lot. I used to read the letters pages and the Bullpen Bulletins as a kid and just thought the world of him. After I grew up and read more, I realized he was the front man for a lot of other people. Still, he was the ringmaster of the circus, the showman that beckoned me into the wonderful worlds in the tent. Despite all the controversy about credit, work for hire deals, etc. there's a lot of stories I've loved because of the Funky Flashman.
  #502  
Old 07-07-2019, 04:39 AM
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I've often wondered why Disney has never re-themed Splash Mountain. Fewer and fewer people have any idea who these characters are, and they are never going to re-release Song of the South...
Well, doing that now would just give them a lot of headaches, and Florida isn't the Bluest state in the Union, either.

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Sort of been done before but not quite. Blacula

It was incredible in the sense of "MST3K-level bad" incredible. It's... well it's a thing. I... yeah. Just don't have the words because on some level I loved it as pure schlock (although I haven't seen it in like 25+ years) but on another level it's just... not good. It's like a joke you are embarrassed make you laugh.
I'm embarrassed I forgot about Blacula. Next I'll be forgetting Scream Blacula Scream or Coffey or Superfly!

Anyway, I wasn't talking about Blaxploitation, I was talking about a mainstream Horror film which hews closely to the Stoker novel (which is now considered to be the Classic Vampire) but which just happens to have a Black Dracula. Maybe that's impossible because Blacula has "claimed" that space sufficiently that any subsequent film would be compared to that one and not analyzed any other way.
  #503  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:00 AM
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Which makes me wonder: The Little Mermaid isn't White, but The Little Mermaid is a Danish story. It isn't ancient folklore...

Well, seeing as how the cartoon Arial speaks with American-accented English instead of Danish and lives in the blue Caribbean Sea instead of the murky Baltic and she doesn't kill herself by the end of the story, then I think it's fair to say that we really aren't talking "the folklore" "Little Mermaid" anymore. If people want to be het up about Disney annexing a character from folklore and turning it into a American icon, OK. But I wish they would focus on all the ways she's been Americanized, and not just her skin tone.

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So... how about a Chinese Peter Pan? Just to fuck with everyone, how about a Black Vlad Dracula? Do Romanian tears matter if someone takes their national hero, deracinates him, and gives him a dye job? Everyone here would probably be fine with a Black George Washington, but Dracula has some Weird Sexual Overtones which get a lot more complicated if the character's Black like King Kong.
A couple of weeks ago I watched one of the best stage productions of "The Wiz" that I've ever seen (and I consider myself a connoisseur). "The Wizard of Oz" is a masterpiece, one that I have to tune into every time I see on TV. But I also love "The Wiz". I guess if we want to be basic we can call it a blackified version of "The Wizard of Oz". But even if that's a fair description, being "blackfied" does not make it disrespectful. Indeed, there are wonderful subtexts in "The Wiz" that are missing in the "The Wizard of Oz" because of the cultural perspective the former is written from (e.g., the crows telling the Scarecrow he'll never be able to get off the pole so he's a fool for trying does not appear in the latter.) So, I think if someone were to create a Chinese "Peter Pan"--a version of the story that reflected Chinese values and traditions--I personally wouldn't see it as a way to "fuck with everyone" but rather as a way to tell a classic story in a slightly different way. I don't think we need another reboot of "Peter Pan", but I would hold this opinion no matter who is cast or how the story is stylized.

At any rate, I would argue that if folklore is deeply entrenched in a culture, variations of that folkfore will always be secondary to the original. When people think of Dorothy and Toto, their minds immediately go to Judy Garland, not Diana Ross. If live-action Arial becomes the permanent face of the Little Mermaid, that would just mean that cartoon Arial isn't as powerful an icon as people think she is. But I don't think that's going to happen. I think live-action Arial will always be secondary to cartoon Arial due to primacy effect (e.g., Those who are established first have more influence than those who follow).
  #504  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:14 AM
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Race may not matter, but sometimes it does. Othello is ALL about race. That's the whole plot!
It could be an interesting reading to reverse it, by setting it in one of the mediaeval African kingdoms with Othello played as a white mercenary, or one of the Europeans who rose to significant postiions after being taken into slavery in one of the North African kingdoms.

It's not uncommon to do race/gender-reversed productions of Shakespeare, these days.
  #505  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:49 AM
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So here's a semi-serious question. Is my white daughter no longer allowed to dress as Ariel for Halloween?
So here’s a semi-serious question. Why do white people act as though they are constrained by some scary authority figure when it comes to mundane speech and artistic expression?

Imma need you to walk me through what you think could happen if your daughter slapped a red wig on her head and put on a mermaid suit for Halloween. The Costume Police gonna arrest her? Are your neighbors going to mock her and withhold candy? Who is in a position to not allow your daughter to dress however the hell she wants?
  #506  
Old 07-07-2019, 08:13 AM
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So here’s a semi-serious question. Why do white people act as though they are constrained by some scary authority figure when it comes to mundane speech and artistic expression?

Imma need you to walk me through what you think could happen if your daughter slapped a red wig on her head and put on a mermaid suit for Halloween. The Costume Police gonna arrest her? Are your neighbors going to mock her and withhold candy? Who is in a position to not allow your daughter to dress however the hell she wants?
I think msmith537 is thinking about the ramifications of a black Arial on his daughter's Halloween costume. If she wants to go as the live-action Arial rather than the cartoon one, how far can she go because eyebrows get raised.

I guess I don't see how hard it would be to explain to a little girl that we can dress up like Arial without trying to capture every single detail. Cartoon Arial has big-ass blue eyes, yet you can look like cartoon Arial without putting in blue eye contacts. Cartoon Arial has a zero waist, but no one would let their daughters starve themselves to capture that particular detail and some one the sky hasn't fallen. I'm guessing that Halle's hair will be done in particular way for the live-action "The Little Mermaid". So a little girl will be able to capture her essence just by doing her hair like hers (or by getting a wig). I think it would be funny if live-action Arial still has red hair like the cartoon. That way, the Little Mermaid costumes based on the cartoon will still be relevant.

I find msmth537's question odd because I'm trying to imagine what he thinks little black girls do when they want to dress up like a Disney princess or any other white icon. I know back in my day, many a black girl would become Wonder Wonder just by spinning around like Linda Carter and throwing up her wrists to deflect imaginary bullets. Have little kids lost the ability to make-believe like this? Are white kids unable to picture themselves as dark-skinned characters unless they darken their skin? If so, I think that's something that can be easily addressed in a single sentence: "You will look crazy if you leave this house wearing brown make-up all over your body. Please don't ask me anymore."
  #507  
Old 07-07-2019, 08:35 AM
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I think msmith537 is thinking about the ramifications of a black Arial on his daughter's Halloween costume. If she wants to go as the live-action Arial rather than the cartoon one, how far can she go because eyebrows get raised.
Can’t imagine he’d even take his daughter to see the live-action version if he’s wrestling with such a question.
  #508  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:14 AM
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I find msmth537's question odd because I'm trying to imagine what he thinks little black girls do when they want to dress up like a Disney princess or any other white icon. I know back in my day, many a black girl would become Wonder Wonder just by spinning around like Linda Carter and throwing up her wrists to deflect imaginary bullets. Have little kids lost the ability to make-believe like this? Are white kids unable to picture themselves as dark-skinned characters unless they darken their skin? If so, I think that's something that can be easily addressed in a single sentence: "You will look crazy if you leave this house wearing brown make-up all over your body. Please don't ask me anymore."
This paragraph sums up my thoughts pretty well.

There's a weird underlying implication that black kids ought not be dressing up like white characters, and I'm pretty sure msmith would reject that implication. I certainly welcome white kids dressing up like Black Panther. The 8 year old son of one of my friends is psyched about being Megan Rapinoe for Halloween--not by stuffing a bra, but just by wearing the jersey and maybe some hair dye and gel. And msmith's white daughter should 100% be live action Ariel for Halloween if she wants.

Representation is important for folks of color, but I also think it's really important for white kids to imagine themselves into characters of color.
  #509  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:21 AM
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Non-white people have plenty of practice being enthusiastic about white characters, identifying with them, dressing up as them, etc. It’s significant that so many white people have a problem going the other way.
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  #510  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:29 AM
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Non-white people have plenty of practice being enthusiastic about white characters, identifying with them, dressing up as them, etc. It’s significant that so many white people have a problem going the other way.
I get a little bit of anxiety about it. White people who are dimly aware of the idea of cultural appropriation may think they're going to catch flak for dressing up as a character of another race/ethnicity. If dressing as a stereotype of a generic black person is bad, is it also bad to dress as a specific person who's black?

But c'mon, people, think it through.

There's also the more pernicious loss-of-status issue. In a society where white people have higher social status, what does it mean for a white person to dress as someone without that status? Again, the answer is for white people to get over themselves.
  #511  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:58 AM
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Non-white people have plenty of practice being enthusiastic about white characters, identifying with them, dressing up as them, etc. It’s significant that so many white people have a problem going the other way.
And white people really need to get used to this. White Americans (at least how we currently define this category) aren't always going to be the numerical majority, which means the media isn't always going to be dominated by white faces. We are seeing signs of that transition and people are being all butthurt about it...but this is the logical consequence of the breakdown of racial barriers and a diversifying population.

People can call race-neutral casting "pandering" if they want to, but they need to reconcile that view with the fact that white people have been pandered to for ages. And I gotta wonder who exactly is being pandered to with a black Arial? Black folks, who comprise only 13% of the population? Liberals? White people who love them black mermaid. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I don't understand this particular angle.
  #512  
Old 07-07-2019, 10:09 AM
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At work is the same assumption that makes people think a black person in a prestigious position is only there to fill a diversity quota, while a white (male) is assumed to be there through merit.

It seems like this assumption is becoming stronger, not weaker, despite us being so far into the 21st century and in post-Obama times. But maybe this is an artifact of peak internet culture. When Eddie Murphy made Nutty Professor were there people calling this PC pandering? I don’t recall any controversy about this reboot (except for concerns about the way fatness was portrayed).

Last edited by you with the face; 07-07-2019 at 10:10 AM.
  #513  
Old 07-07-2019, 03:37 PM
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Have little kids lost the ability to make-believe like this? Are white kids unable to picture themselves as dark-skinned characters unless they darken their skin? If so, I think that's something that can be easily addressed in a single sentence: "You will look crazy if you leave this house wearing brown make-up all over your body. Please don't ask me anymore."
Little kids haven't lost their ability to make believe but some adults have lost their damned minds. I'm sure there are some white folks worried about unnecessarily concerned about cultural appropriation but I doubt many people are going to have a problem with a little white boy dressed up as Black Panther for Halloween. But, yeah, if some little kid innocently suggests darkening his skin let's steer him away from that.
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  #514  
Old 07-07-2019, 06:21 PM
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I think an Asian Peter Pan is a fine idea...Pan is even a Chinese surname, so you wouldn't have to change the full name of the character!
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Old 07-07-2019, 07:12 PM
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I think Idris Elba would be fine for James Bond. If James Bond is meant to be a single person, then he'd be about 90 years old now, so the film series has already jumped the shark in that sense.
Not actually single. He got married in one of the books (and then his bride turned out to be a double agent, so she killed herself). So technically, he’s a widower.

And dead in a freak nuclear explosion in 1967. So shark-jumping goes WAY back for him...
  #516  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:13 PM
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I don't give a rats ass about changing anything....what I DO care about is people being assholes about it all. And hypocrites.

"Mermaids arnt real. Fuck gingers. .....YOU WHITEWASHED THE ANCIENT ONE??? Who will tibetan boys see in movies to represent them now??? You took a role from a Tibetan actor!!"
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Old 07-07-2019, 07:14 PM
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I think an Asian Peter Pan is a fine idea...Pan is even a Chinese surname, so you wouldn't have to change the full name of the character!
Heh. Peter Lo Pan from Big Trouble in Little Neverland...
  #518  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:15 PM
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I think an Asian Peter Pan is a fine idea...Pan is even a Chinese surname, so you wouldn't have to change the full name of the character!
I mean why not? Already played by a female (but not as a female....Thats the target for the 'progressive crowd!')

Buzzfeed: Its time for a lesbian Peter Pan. (mind blown)
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Old 07-07-2019, 07:17 PM
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Non-white people have plenty of practice being enthusiastic about white characters, identifying with them, dressing up as them, etc. It’s significant that so many white people have a problem going the other way.
Surprised?

In a world where wearing a sombrero or dreadlocks gets you thrown in the pillory?
  #520  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:19 PM
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So here’s a semi-serious question. Why do white people act as though they are constrained by some scary authority figure when it comes to mundane speech and artistic expression?

Imma need you to walk me through what you think could happen if your daughter slapped a red wig on her head and put on a mermaid suit for Halloween. The Costume Police gonna arrest her? Are your neighbors going to mock her and withhold candy? Who is in a position to not allow your daughter to dress however the hell she wants?
I think its funny that my desire to dress up my three year old as the Saw guy got me the dirty looks.....but Darth Fucking Vader is a-Ok.
  #521  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:24 PM
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Surprised?

In a world where wearing a sombrero or dreadlocks gets you thrown in the pillory?
And by "thrown in the pillory" you mean "get a few dirty looks," right?

White fragility is real, dude.

I'll repeat myself:
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Originally Posted by me
White people who are dimly aware of the idea of cultural appropriation may think they're going to catch flak for dressing up as a character of another race/ethnicity. If dressing as a stereotype of a generic black person is bad, is it also bad to dress as a specific person who's black?

But c'mon, people, think it through.
  #522  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:25 PM
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It could be an interesting reading to reverse it, by setting it in one of the mediaeval African kingdoms with Othello played as a white mercenary, or one of the Europeans who rose to significant postiions after being taken into slavery in one of the North African kingdoms.

It's not uncommon to do race/gender-reversed productions of Shakespeare, these days.
I had an idea once to race-switch Storm from the X-Men (sorta). The gist is that the African Goddess she's always invoking is more responsible for her powers than we knew. Said Goddess is pissed that Storm has become a world-adventurer rather than concentrating on her people. So the Goddess gives the powers to the person at the time who just happens to be trying the hardest to help the Goddess's people.

And at said time, its a tireless, penniless white male Christian missionary.

That story-line alone would keep Slate, Salon, Buzzfeed, HuffPo et al in business for years to come.
  #523  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:27 PM
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And by "thrown in the pillory" you mean "get a few dirty looks," right?

White fragility is real, dude.

I'll repeat myself:
Wouldn't know. I'm not white.

Nah, i mean A selection of click-bait outrage pieces, and getting yelled at if you run into the wrong privileged liberal arts major.*


* granted its not really being thrown in a pillory.
  #524  
Old 07-07-2019, 07:33 PM
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Wouldn't know. I'm not white.

Nah, i mean A selection of click-bait outrage pieces, and getting yelled at if you run into the wrong privileged liberal arts major.*


* granted its not really being thrown in a pillory.
No, it's really not. If you dress as a racist stereotype, and people yell at you for dressing as a racist stereotype, I'm not gonna lose too much sleep.

On the other hand, if a white kid dressed as Coco, I'd be real surprised to see him get much pushback; or if a white dude cosplayed as Necalli, I'd expect very little pushback. And if somebody yelled at them for it, I'd be a lot likelier to think the yeller was an asshole.

It's the difference between donning a wig or hat to represent a specific character, and donning a wig or hat to represent an ethnic stereotype.
  #525  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:45 AM
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(If Chloe had been cast, I wonder how many white tears would have been shed over the fact that a blonde was chosen and not a red head.)
Already seen this: a few redheads complaining that - never mind skin color - there aren't enough real redheads being cast in redhead roles. I pointed them at Karen Gillan and told them to wait for the live-action version of Brave.

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Lot's of focus on Superman. I think a highly imaginative rethinking of that story could work with a non-white Superman. However if it just portrayed the same basic story where race didn't matter, Superman's race didn't matter, I think such a production could also come under criticism for taking that tack, even from a 'woke' POV. Whereas, it's not straightforward to weave a struggle against racism into the story. But, for anyone now to produce a new 'Superman' that isn't trite, they'd probably have to do something pretty different. A story of non-white Superman, in a world where it mattered than he wasn't white, might be that new thing.
I've been thinking about that. Lots of insecure white people are losing their shit over a fictional half-human being played by a black actress. Imagine if there was a real Superman, with all the powers and heroics and chiselled good looks and the glaiven, who was black. They'd Freak. The Fuck. Out. Probably conspire to bring him down just out of their own insecurities. Could be an interesting story.

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Hasn't there been any attempt at doing traditional African folktales, rather than just doing rehashes of the same old thing? I think THAT would be really cool.
There was a children's television series called "Tinga Tinga Tales" which covered some of these, although many of them have been filtered through Kipiing's "Just So Stories" and similar Western retellings.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:09 AM
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Already seen this: a few redheads complaining that - never mind skin color - there aren't enough real redheads being cast in redhead roles. I pointed them at Karen Gillan and told them to wait for the live-action version of Brave.
To be fair, the example you gave is of an actress whose most prominent role had her shave off all her hair and paint her skin blue.

Otherwise, I agree.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:12 AM
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To be fair, the example you gave is of an actress whose most prominent role had her shave off all her hair and paint her skin blue.

Otherwise, I agree.
I think of her mostly for her Doctor Who role, plus there's a new Jumanji movie out.
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:21 AM
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It could be an interesting reading to reverse it, by setting it in one of the mediaeval African kingdoms with Othello played as a white mercenary, or one of the Europeans who rose to significant postiions after being taken into slavery in one of the North African kingdoms.

It's not uncommon to do race/gender-reversed productions of Shakespeare, these days.
It has been done- quite famously, as well. Patrick Stewart played Othello in 1997, as a white man.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/21/m...ery-color.html
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Old 07-08-2019, 06:13 AM
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First, he needs to be in a city with a lot of skyscrapers in a pretty compact area. The image of Spider-Man swinging from building to building on a webline is pretty iconic and it's also how he gets around. Imagine Spider-Man operating in LA or Washington DC.
There were a few times he ended up in Tinyville (Middle of the USA) and it would get mentioned, "damn, I'm used to swinging off buildings and here the trees are taller than the houses".
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  #530  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:37 AM
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Gyrate,

What is "glaiven"?
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:09 AM
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Gyrate,

What is "glaiven"?
It's a gratuitous Simpsons reference I threw in. Pay it no mind.

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Glavin - A word used by Professor Frink when he's muttering. In one episode while he's shocked he says, "Great glaven in a glass!" or "Good glavin!" It is most often heard when Frink is in pain like "Oh, so much pain in the glavin!" (pronounced / ˈglejvn̩/) This is probably an adaptation of Jerry Lewis's interjection "froyndleyven!", which, in turn, is presumed to be Yiddish semi-nonsense roughly meaning "happytime!" (cf. standard German "Freund", friend; "Freude", joy; "Leben", life). The similarity to Slavic words for 'head' (golova, glava, glowa) does not account for the vowels or 'n' and is probably coincidental. Lewis's portrayal of the Nutty Professor is considered by many Simpsons fans to be partial inspiration for Frink's character, and Lewis did a guest voice in one episode as Frink's father.

Frink: That meteor is headed straight for us, with the fire, and the impact, and the hundred percent chance of pain!… Pain in the glavin!
  #532  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:26 AM
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Okay then. The kinds of changes I'd personally accept for Peter and still view it as being the same Peter would be the kinds that happen within the narrative.
I was under the impression that you consider the various white Peter Parkers the same Peter Parker, but you really see the retellings of the origin story as happening within the narrative?

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If Peter Parker was just suddenly black I would think of him as one of the endless variants in the multiverse unless it was somehow explained inside the continuity in some way.
Why is "Peter Parker isn't white" quantitatively different to you, while "Aunt May is young now" isn't? And was there some explanation for why inside the continuity?

I'm fine with the answers "It's just how I feel", "That's not what I mean" and "...", by the way. I just still think you're creating elaborate justifications for an emotional response to a particular type of change in a world where making big changes isn't usual. (An emotional response you share with many, but that doesn't make the arguments less post hoc rationalization.)
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Old 07-08-2019, 11:30 AM
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I get a little bit of anxiety about it. White people who are dimly aware of the idea of cultural appropriation may think they're going to catch flak for dressing up as a character of another race/ethnicity. If dressing as a stereotype of a generic black person is bad, is it also bad to dress as a specific person who's black?
It's incredibly easy to find articles in mainstream publications (the New York Times; People) discussing whether it is appropriate for white children to dress up as Black Panther. There was a similar discussion about Moana. I'm not going to do an exhaustive search, but there are very clearly a number of people who believe that it is inappropriate for a white child to "dress as a specific person" who is not white.

I tend to agree with you that it is broadly beneficial for white children to imagine themselves as non-white characters. But, I would think a well-meaning white person who is exposed to these articles (especially one who embraces the importance of affirming to the experiences of non-white voices) who might conclude that they would catch flak (or that they should simply make their children abstain out of sensitivity to non-white children).

Edit: I don't think this applies to casting a black Ariel or really any situation in which to "change" the race of a character.

Last edited by Falchion; 07-08-2019 at 11:31 AM.
  #534  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:41 AM
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Already seen this: a few redheads complaining that - never mind skin color - there aren't enough real redheads being cast in redhead roles. I pointed them at Karen Gillan and told them to wait for the live-action version of Brave.

I've been thinking about that. Lots of insecure white people are losing their shit over a fictional half-human being played by a black actress. Imagine if there was a real Superman, with all the powers and heroics and chiselled good looks and the glaiven, who was black. They'd Freak. The Fuck. Out. Probably conspire to bring him down just out of their own insecurities. Could be an interesting story.

There was a children's television series called "Tinga Tinga Tales" which covered some of these, although many of them have been filtered through Kipiing's "Just So Stories" and similar Western retellings.
Oh come on. They made GOD black 16 years ago and no one gave a fuck.

  #535  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:45 AM
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No, it's really not. If you dress as a racist stereotype, and people yell at you for dressing as a racist stereotype, I'm not gonna lose too much sleep.

On the other hand, if a white kid dressed as Coco, I'd be real surprised to see him get much pushback; or if a white dude cosplayed as Necalli, I'd expect very little pushback. And if somebody yelled at them for it, I'd be a lot likelier to think the yeller was an asshole.

It's the difference between donning a wig or hat to represent a specific character, and donning a wig or hat to represent an ethnic stereotype.
Heh...ok how about if I'm dressing up as an actor who is a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude!
  #536  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:48 AM
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So it seems the Little Mermaid situation has already been discussed in my absence but I would like to take a second and applaud Disney/Freeform for their response.

Specifically this bit: “...the character of Ariel is a work of fiction. So after all this is said and done, and you still cannot get past the idea that choosing the incredible, sensational, highly-talented, gorgeous Halle Bailey is anything other than the INSPIRED casting that it is because she ‘doesn’t look like the cartoon one,’ oh boy, do I have some news for you…about you.”


https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/new...jaP?li=BBnb7Kz
  #537  
Old 07-08-2019, 12:07 PM
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So it seems the Little Mermaid situation has already been discussed in my absence but I would like to take a second and applaud Disney/Freeform for their response.

Specifically this bit: “...the character of Ariel is a work of fiction. So after all this is said and done, and you still cannot get past the idea that choosing the incredible, sensational, highly-talented, gorgeous Halle Bailey is anything other than the INSPIRED casting that it is because she ‘doesn’t look like the cartoon one,’ oh boy, do I have some news for you…about you.”


https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/new...jaP?li=BBnb7Kz
95% of all famous literary/movie figures are fictional. 99% if you're atheist.
  #538  
Old 07-08-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
It's incredibly easy to find articles in mainstream publications (the New York Times; People) discussing whether it is appropriate for white children to dress up as Black Panther. There was a similar discussion about Moana. I'm not going to do an exhaustive search, but there are very clearly a number of people who believe that it is inappropriate for a white child to "dress as a specific person" who is not white.
I was about to take what you said at face value. Then I followed your link.

First, the People link, since it didn't require a login. Dude, that article is 100% sourced off the NYT article you linked to. It's just sloppy journalism: "Read my article that's just a summary of an article written by an actual reporter, so I'll get the ad revenue instead of them!" [edit: oh shit--the article continues after a point where it looks like it ends, and they do quote some randos on Twitter complaining about white people dressing as black superheros. My bad. In my defense, this is the line that I thought was the end of the article and really wasn't:
Quote:
Want all the latest pregnancy and birth announcements, plus celebrity mom blogs? Click here to get those and more in the PEOPLE Parents newsletter.
As for the NYT article, there is not a single person quoted in that article who "believe[s] that it is inappropriate for a white child to 'dress as a specific person' who is not white."

The actor and the director of Black Panther are an enthusiastic YES, as are most of the folks quoted in the article. There's one professor who says, "As parents, or even as the people creating costumes, we need to be very aware of what that says." Her quotes in the article are pretty unclear, but I think she's suggesting, later, that when white kids dress up as Black Panther, white parents should take it as an opportunity to talk about race with their kids.

Quote:
I tend to agree with you that it is broadly beneficial for white children to imagine themselves as non-white characters. But, I would think a well-meaning white person who is exposed to these articles (especially one who embraces the importance of affirming to the experiences of non-white voices) who might conclude that they would catch flak (or that they should simply make their children abstain out of sensitivity to non-white children).
Not based on a reasonable reading of those articles, they wouldn't. As I said earlier, c'mon, people, think it through.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 07-08-2019 at 12:29 PM.
  #539  
Old 07-08-2019, 01:30 PM
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Heh...ok how about if I'm dressing up as an actor who is a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude!
Never go full racial stereotype.
  #540  
Old 07-08-2019, 01:47 PM
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First, he needs to be in a city with a lot of skyscrapers in a pretty compact area.
Queens, the area that the original comic book Peter lived in until he married MJ and moved out of Aunt May's house, is hardly sky-scrapery. Yes, he generally operates within the core of the city, but there's a hell of a lot of other cities which are built up the same way - transfer him to LA, Toronto, or Tokyo, and he'd have no problem finding areas to swing off of skyscrapers...or areas where he couldn't.

And he doesn't actually need skyscrapers for swinging - anything above 3 or 4 stories is plenty (and even lower buildings would do in a pinch, just with a smaller arc) - any large city in the world would give him plenty of room to swing.

He's optimized for large cities, yes, but nothing about Spider-Man requires that city to be New York...A Peter Parker who lived in another city would be a slightly different character, yes - just as one who lives in an apartment, or one whose Aunt May is closer in age to him, or one who never met Gwen Stacy is - but the fundamentals - his power set, the core of his personality, his personal history - all fit comfortably in a different character.
  #541  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:11 PM
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He's optimized for large cities, yes, but nothing about Spider-Man requires that city to be New York...
Another thing, and I hesitate to opine on this because I don't really know, but I get the impression that the arcs of Spiderman's swings in both comics and movies don't always make perfect geometric or physics sense.
  #542  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:15 PM
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Queens, the area that the original comic book Peter lived in until he married MJ and moved out of Aunt May's house, is hardly sky-scrapery.
It's true. I once played a Spider-Man video game and once Peter got to Queens it became jumping from rooftop to rooftop time.
  #543  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:56 PM
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I was under the impression that you consider the various white Peter Parkers the same Peter Parker, but you really see the retellings of the origin story as happening within the narrative?

Why is "Peter Parker isn't white" quantitatively different to you, while "Aunt May is young now" isn't? And was there some explanation for why inside the continuity?

I'm fine with the answers "It's just how I feel", "That's not what I mean" and "...", by the way. I just still think you're creating elaborate justifications for an emotional response to a particular type of change in a world where making big changes isn't usual. (An emotional response you share with many, but that doesn't make the arguments less post hoc rationalization.)
Oh, I really do think this Aunt (Marissa To-)May is a variant Also, in the current films his classmates are so far afield from their comic book counterparts as to be completely different characters that only share a name (MJ, Ned Leeds, Betty Brant). Flash Thompson is a wee bit closer in that he's still a Spider-man obsessed bully to Parker, but he's not a hugely popular BMOC-type alpha male jock with pretty girls dripping off of him that regularly scores victories over Peter.

The endless re-tellings of the origin stories are of course technically all variants in and of themselves, but they all at least seem to be making the attempt of taking PP from the page as near as can be and putting him up on the screen. It all comes down to "How different is too different?" I don't know if I'm being weirdly atypical, but I think race, gender, sexual orientation are all kind of major building blocks of our essential selves and swapping any of those out with something else is a major change. Again, there are a lot of other things they could do that would be nearly or just as jarring as changing his race would be. If they made him way tall, sort, or muscle-bound, or gave him long and shaggy hair, I'd still internally feel like it was just weirdly wrong and a different Peter Parker even if nothing else changed.
  #544  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:50 AM
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our essential selves
I'm going to leave this discussion be at this point except for this little quibble. We are not comic book characters. If we start invoking what is an essential part of us as individual, then changing the year of birth is right out, even if other parts of us might be more malleable than we'd like to think: Are you really the real you? (Article in the Guardian.)
  #545  
Old 07-09-2019, 01:16 PM
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I'm going to leave this discussion be at this point except for this little quibble. We are not comic book characters. If we start invoking what is an essential part of us as individual, then changing the year of birth is right out, even if other parts of us might be more malleable than we'd like to think: Are you really the real you? (Article in the Guardian.)
And maybe that's the crux of it right there. There's a small handful of characters that I've become so invested in that I want them to be treated as though they are real people.

That was an interesting article by the way. I've never heard of that show before, but it sounds fascinating.
  #546  
Old 07-09-2019, 02:26 PM
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One could argue that, because our birthdates don't change, real people go through more changes to "our essential selves" than comic book characters do. I'm certainly not the same person that I was 30 years ago, but Clark Kent mostly is the same person he was 30 years ago.
  #547  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:37 PM
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One could argue that, because our birthdates don't change, real people go through more changes to "our essential selves" than comic book characters do. I'm certainly not the same person that I was 30 years ago, but Clark Kent mostly is the same person he was 30 years ago.
Hell, I'm not sure I'm the same person I was before I started this thread. Which makes me wonder about my own personal investment in characters.
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