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  #51  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
Or the opposite: apparently there's a movement on the internet "Give Elsa a Girlfriend". (Or at least, there was)
well according to the singing voice of Elsa who tweeted something to the effect "im so excited that they listened and she get her princess "
  #52  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:43 AM
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So she's changed from Ariel to Ariel Black.

She's still the same type.
Only you would be so bold...
  #53  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:58 AM
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Because people keeps going to watch them.



Not really. If anything this will cost them the so profitable China market. A more well-established actress of any race would have been the way to go if that's all they wanted with the casting.



Yeah. Show Business is still a business.
You're missing my point: people are saying the casting is a cynical cash grab when the entire movie is a cash grab. A white actress in the role would not suddenly make it otherwise.
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  #54  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:25 AM
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You keep stealing my points .

This thread is one long advertisement for their new movie, which otherwise we wouldn't be talking about.
Itís as if they hit on the fact that race is a major thing in this country.
  #55  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:51 AM
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So she's changed from Ariel to Ariel Black.

She's still the same type.
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Only you would be so bold...
You guys are a regular font of bad jokes.
  #56  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:56 AM
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Word.
  #57  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:02 AM
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You guys are a regular font of bad jokes.
So theyíre comics sans humor?
  #58  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:13 AM
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well according to the singing voice of Elsa

That would be Adele Dazeem.
  #59  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:50 AM
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This is a cynical cash grab, not just the movie, but this controversy too. They only care about PC of it changes their profits, they only care about diversity of it makes them money, and they only care about complaints on the internet if they will cost them income. I'm sure they anticipated a handful of people on the internet complaining, and were quite happy to add it to their marketing campaign.

As for the black washing, I'm with the red heads. Why not turn one of the non red heads black? There a love interest, right? Turn him black. It's more progressive anyway. If anyone doesn't need more representation, it's hot girls.
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  #60  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:55 AM
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Freeform goes for the jugular.

The disney remakes are boring because they're mostly just papering over 'plotholes' and not doing anything particularly new or exciting with the material. If we're going to be mad about anything, let's be mad about that.

And I absolutely believe that the controversy was backdoor manufactured by Disney.

Last edited by Inner Stickler; 07-08-2019 at 08:56 AM.
  #61  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:56 AM
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This is a cynical cash grab, not just the movie, but this controversy too.
I am shocked--SHOCKED--to learn that one of the world's largest corporations is trying to increase their earnings!

I mean, seriously, dude?
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They only care about PC of it changes their profits, they only care about diversity of it makes them money, and they only care about complaints on the internet if they will cost them income. I'm sure they anticipated a handful of people on the internet complaining, and were quite happy to add it to their marketing campaign.
Can we all take it as given that Disney is trying to make money? They are not a nonprofit charity. Pointing out that they only care about things that make them money is the lowest hanging fruit in the world.
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As for the black washing, I'm with the red heads.
I'm a red head, and you're not with me.
  #62  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:13 AM
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One person's "checking off PC boxes" is another person's "addressing diversity". For some character translations race matters, for others there is room to manoeuvre and those opportunities should be taken advantage of.

What so many people see as Political Correctness Gone Mad, others see as an attempt at correcting a path so as to be more inclusive. Soon enough this will become second nature and nobody will even notice, and that's where things need to be headed; a conscious effort until it becomes an unconscious one.
That's all fine and good, but why mess with something with more than a quarter-century of an iconic character with red hair, pale skin and blue eyes? This sort of PC... revisionism(?) is the sort of thing that generally either pisses off the more right-wing types, or makes a lot of the rest of us just roll our eyes.

I mean, Disney could just as well generate a NEW princess-franchise to have women of color in the lead roles organically - there's a lot of storytelling room outside of European folktales - there's Africa, pre-Colombian America, pre-Raj India, etc...
  #63  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:24 AM
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Gotta love how many people tell you they "don't see colour" - until you change some colour things that literally do not matter one fucking bit to the story. Then, people seem to see colour just fine...
  #64  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:27 AM
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That's all fine and good, but why mess with something with more than a quarter-century of an iconic character with red hair, pale skin and blue eyes? This sort of PC... revisionism(?) is the sort of thing that generally either pisses off the more right-wing types, or makes a lot of the rest of us just roll our eyes.
The target audience for these movies are children. You understand this, right? Children will not care at all that this Ariel looks nothing like the cartoon version, because most of them haven't been exposed to it to any significant degree. Even if they have watched the 90's movie, it's like one movie out of many dozen. Odds are good much more current Disney and Pixar characters are where their attachments lie (Elsa, Moana, etc.)

At the risk of offending people, this latest outrage over what fictional characters looks like the product of what happens when carrying over juvenile interests into adulthood goes too far. If you don't want to see this movie, just don't have to see it. Easy decision here.

But if you have kids that talk to their friends about it and want to see it, I hope ya'll aren't going to turn them down just because black Ariel doesn't match your vision of the character. Because that's like, really sad.

Last edited by you with the face; 07-08-2019 at 10:32 AM.
  #65  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:31 AM
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It's. A. Caribbean. Musical. Without. Any. Caribbean. People.

Heaven forbid it might be a sincere attempt at somewhat correcting that erasure. Especially with Lin-Manuel Miranda (a Caribbean person) helping produce and write new music.

Yes, Disney's ultimate goal is profit, but this idea that diversity couldn't possibly a natural creative choice is irksome. That the only possibly reason to include people of color is to 'drum up controversy' as opposed to, you know, actually listening to us and doing stuff... well, it speaks to how unnatural our presence still feels in mainstream entertainment.
  #66  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:33 AM
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It's. A. Caribbean. Musical. Without. Any. Caribbean. People.
Well, there's the crab who sang calypso...

Last edited by you with the face; 07-08-2019 at 10:33 AM.
  #67  
Old 07-08-2019, 01:19 PM
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Well, there's the crab who sang calypso...
Can we be real? If my name was Sebastian and I had a cool Jamaican accent, you'd totally help me. You would. You know you would.
  #68  
Old 07-08-2019, 01:31 PM
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The target audience for these movies are children. You understand this, right? Children will not care at all that this Ariel looks nothing like the cartoon version, because most of them haven't been exposed to it to any significant degree. Even if they have watched the 90's movie, it's like one movie out of many dozen. Odds are good much more current Disney and Pixar characters are where their attachments lie (Elsa, Moana, etc.)

At the risk of offending people, this latest outrage over what fictional characters looks like the product of what happens when carrying over juvenile interests into adulthood goes too far. If you don't want to see this movie, just don't have to see it. Easy decision here.

But if you have kids that talk to their friends about it and want to see it, I hope ya'll aren't going to turn them down just because black Ariel doesn't match your vision of the character. Because that's like, really sad.
I think it's more silly than anything else- there's no reason not to make Ariel black, but nor is there any reason that they need to either. There's no reason to make Ariel black. Nobody would have thought twice about a white, red haired, blue-eyed Ariel, but Disney felt like they had to make a point for some reason.

I'm just suspicious of the motives of studios/production companies that do stuff like this- it strikes me as cynical attempts to virtue signal how diverse they are. "Hey look! We cast a black girl as Ariel! Look how diverse we are now!"
  #69  
Old 07-08-2019, 01:46 PM
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I'm just suspicious of the motives of studios/production companies that do stuff like this- it strikes me as cynical attempts to virtue signal how diverse they are. "Hey look! We cast a black girl as Ariel! Look how diverse we are now!"
My cynical take is: "Hey look! We cast a black girl as Ariel! The inevitable foaming at the mouth that will now come from the butt hurt is exactly what we want! Watch this blow up our ticket sales!"

And then here we are, right as predicted, surrounded by mouth foam.
  #70  
Old 07-08-2019, 01:52 PM
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So, we're all taking it for granted that she won't have red hair? It's possible for black people to have red hair, after all. And Hollywood has a long track record of ignoring actors' hair colors and just dying it whatever they think will be best for the role.

As for "staying true to the original", all these posts, and nobody has complained that the animated Aladdin wasn't Chinese?
  #71  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:23 PM
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(edited)

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  #72  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:30 PM
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With Disney's track record the upcoming Mulan live-action remake is going to have an all-black cast.
I mean, it's not, and that's a really weird thing to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bump
That's all fine and good, but why mess with something with more than a quarter-century of an iconic character with red hair, pale skin and blue eyes? This sort of PC... revisionism(?) is the sort of thing that generally either pisses off the more right-wing types, or makes a lot of the rest of us just roll our eyes.
I'm sorry, but what's to roll your eyes about? Why is an actress being black something that merits your disapproval in any way?

Was Ariel white in the cartoon? Yes, she was. That was THIRTY YEARS AGO. This movie is not for adults, it's for children who were born long after the 1989 animated film. A change in the character's skin color will matter not at all to them.

It is entirely possible Disney felt they'd make extra money by casting an actress who wasn't white. Why does that merit an eye roll from you? Studios have been casting actors and actresses based on their appearance since long before you were born. Of course they want to make money off this, and of course they want people to think they're progressive. They're an entertainment company and their job is to make money; PR and improving their reputation for progressive casting decisions is just good business, and acting like there''s something "cynical" about it is like bitching that they charge for the tickets to see the movie.
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Last edited by RickJay; 07-08-2019 at 02:42 PM.
  #73  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:03 PM
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I think it's more silly than anything else- there's no reason not to make Ariel black, but nor is there any reason that they need to either. There's no reason to make Ariel black. Nobody would have thought twice about a white, red haired, blue-eyed Ariel, but Disney felt like they had to make a point for some reason.
Perhaps the point is that no one should give a rat's ass about the race of a fictional/mythical character where the character's ethnic background is of zero significance to the plot.

Race is going to be irrelevant to the kids who are the target audience for the movie. More to the point, race is far less relevant to parents in the 20-30 age range who are the parents of those kids than it was to we old fogies who grew up in the civil rights era. Not that society is color blind by any means, but it is far more so than it was to my (and I would assume your) generation.
  #74  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:07 PM
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My cynical take is: "Hey look! We cast a black girl as Ariel! The inevitable foaming at the mouth that will now come from the butt hurt is exactly what we want! Watch this blow up our ticket sales!"

And then here we are, right as predicted, surrounded by mouth foam.
A few hundred people in a country of 350 million is "surrounded by mouth foam"?

okay.
  #75  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:28 PM
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A few hundred people in a country of 350 million is "surrounded by mouth foam"?

okay.
I didn't know there's a census count for internet mouth foamers.
  #76  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:03 PM
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I didn't know there's a census count for internet mouth foamers.
Yes, there is. If the amount of people outraged is less than the amount of people who believe Bigfoot is real, then there is no outrage.
  #77  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:14 PM
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Can we be real? If my name was Sebastian and I had a cool Jamaican accent, you'd totally help me. You would. You know you would.
Youíre welcome!
  #78  
Old 07-08-2019, 07:25 PM
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Race is still seen as a special category in our society, even though it shouldn't be any more significant than height, or hair color, or eye color, or build, etc. I don't think race or skin color is intrinsic to the Ariel character in any way, and thus I don't think there is anything legitimate to the complaints about the casting.

It might be different for some fantasy characters, for race/skin color or other characteristics. If a character in some fantasy story is frequently described as stout and strong with a big beer-belly, and his build is a big part of certain character moments (say, he's so wide that it's hard to find the armor to equip him for battle, so he frequently fights without armor) then it'd be reasonable to complain about the casting of an actor who is slight and skinny, barring some prosthetics or CGI, IMO. But this Ariel casting doesn't come close to this.

So, not surprisingly, I think the complaints are mostly based on ignorance and bigotry. I doubt they'd complain about a beautiful and talented actor of the appropriate age and gender for Ariel who was significantly taller or shorter than the character in the original cartoon.
  #79  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:16 PM
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I am anticipating that Prince Eric may well be played by a Latino actor. We may be going through all this a second time if that happens.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:25 PM
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Not only that, but I hear that Scuttle is going to be played by a sandpiper.
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:35 PM
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On the other hand, correcting an injustice in the original film, Flounder will be played by an actual Flounder.

Last edited by Colibri; 07-08-2019 at 08:37 PM.
  #82  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:00 PM
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I'm black, and I agree with this. I think it's fine to have more black characters, but why not make them new and original.

For example, I was 12 when I saw ROTJ in the theater. I didn't think I couldn't be Luke because he was white and I wasn't.
Yeah, but you did get Lando.
  #83  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:09 PM
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Yeah, but you did get Lando.
(Obligatory link to Chasing Amy comic-con scene)
  #84  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:29 PM
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Well, now, that was special.

Someone on Facebook was talking about this casting, and a friend of hers mentioned that in Andersen's story, the mermaid was green.

I politely questioned this, quoting a few lines from a couple of translations to show that her skin color isn't ever described.

In response I got called a racist dipshit, a terrible teacher, and an idiot.

Some folks need to stop posting drunk.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:41 PM
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My initial instinct is exactly the same as you guys here. It's just people getting upset once again that a character previously depicted as white is now being played by a black person. And, yes, that is a stupid thing to get upset about.

However, I have seen another claim that I cannot so easily dismiss: that redheads/gingers are being replaced lately, either by minorities or just someone with a different color of hair. I don't watch enough newer movies and shows to know if this is a thing or not. But, if it is, then I can understand being upset about this.

I've also seen some people asking "why do they so often replace them with black actors?" They claim that black people are represented in film close to their actual numbers in society, unlike other minorities who you barely see. They aren't against changing a character's race so much as saying that other minorities should get higher priority. However, again, I don't watch a lot of more modern stuff, so I don't know how much of a problem this actually is.

So while it's tempting to just lump everyone in with the first argument, which I agree is poor (as long as the character's race isn't important to the plot), I do think we should be open to other arguments as well. I would like to know what people think about those two other claims.

Are redheads being replaced in a lot of modern cinema or TV? Are black people overrepresented compared to other minorities? And do either of these have legitimacy in not liking the Ariel casting?

I myself just want her to have the long, flowing hair that Ariel has, as it looks good under water. It would feel cheap if they leave this out. And I think it would look fine if it were red.
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:49 PM
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On the other hand, correcting an injustice in the original film, Flounder will be played by an actual Flounder.

See? Even he is giving the new Ariel the side-eye.
  #87  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:11 PM
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Are redheads being replaced in a lot of modern cinema or TV? Are black people overrepresented compared to other minorities? And do either of these have legitimacy in not liking the Ariel casting?
Kirsten Dunst dyed her hair red to play Mary Jane Watson in three Spiderman movies. Was there a lot of outrage directed at Columbia Pictures or director Sam Raimi for not using an actual redhead?

How about when Zendaya dyed her her red to play MJ in the most recent Spiderman reboot?

SPOILER:
No, there wasn't.
  #88  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:29 PM
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Well, now, that was special.

Someone on Facebook was talking about this casting, and a friend of hers mentioned that in Andersen's story, the mermaid was green.

I politely questioned this, quoting a few lines from a couple of translations to show that her skin color isn't ever described.

In response I got called a racist dipshit, a terrible teacher, and an idiot.

Some folks need to stop posting drunk.
Are you sure?

"They were six beautiful children; but the youngest was the prettiest of them all; her skin was as clear and delicate as a rose-leaf, and her eyes as blue as the deepest sea; but, like all the others, she had no feet, and her body ended in a fishís tail."

Sounds to me like she's really, really, really white. Or bright red, depending on the species of rose.
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:50 PM
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When I heard the little mermaid was going to be black, I thought about it for 5 seconds and then went about my day.

Last edited by MyFootsZZZ; 07-08-2019 at 10:51 PM.
  #90  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:59 PM
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Re: Mulan
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
The trailer, to me, looks kind of like a trainwreck.
*gasp!* Oh not to me! I love Chinese movies. Wuxia and historical movies are my favorite genres of Chinese movies. When they're combined, as they often are, I'm like a kid in a candy store. The Mulan trailer gave me goosebumps. I can't wait until I see it in the theater on a big screen (the trailer, but also the movie, of course). I don't know how much like the 2009 Chinese movie this version will be, or how wuxia it will be, but at least thank goodness (IMO) there's no talking dragon or singing. It's likely to give a whole new generation an appreciation for Chinese historical movies and introduce them to legends such as Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Li Gong and Pei-Pei Cheng. Last but not least, I want it to do well because it's directed by Niki Caro (Whale Rider, North Country, McFarland, USA, The Zookeeper's Wife). I've liked those as well as everything else she's directed.


(On-topic: I've never seen the animated Little Mermaid, but I'm looking forward to seeing the live-action version. I bet it will be fantastic!)
  #91  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:13 PM
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Sounds to me like she's really, really, really white. Or bright red, depending on the species of rose.
The translations that have been quoted say "rose-leaf," not rose petal. Rose-leaves are green. So she should look like the girl on the right.

On the other hand, this translation says "rose petal," but says nothing about the color of her skin, only it's texture.

Quote:
Her skin was as soft and tender as a rose petal, and her eyes were as blue as the deep sea, but like all the others she had no feet. Her body ended in a fish tail.
But other passages indicate she is definitely white, not green:

Quote:
Lowering her gaze, she saw that her fish tail was gone, and that she had the loveliest pair of white legs any young maid could hope to have.
Quote:
Then the little mermaid lifted her shapely white arms, rose up on the tips of her toes, and skimmed over the floor.
Quote:
Only the helmsman remained on deck as the little mermaid leaned her white arms on the bulwarks and looked to the east to see the first red hint of daybreak, for she knew that the first flash of the sun would strike her dead. Then she saw her sisters rise up among the waves. They were as pale as she,
Given the sensibilities of the day, it's unlikely that Hans Christian Andersen would have imagined the mermaid as being anything but white.

As far as I'm concerned, all this is irrelevant to the casting of the movie, however. The original story was pretty horrible, with the mermaid feeling horrible pain in her feet whenever she walked, losing the Prince to a rival Princess, and being required to stab the Prince as he slept if she wanted to live. (She refused, and got turned into sea foam instead.) So changing the ethnic background of the mermaid, and presumably the Prince, is trivial compared to the other changes.

Last edited by Colibri; 07-08-2019 at 11:22 PM.
  #92  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:50 AM
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there's no reason not to make Ariel black, but nor is there any reason that they need to either.
So they wound up casting, as Freeform said, the "incredible, sensational, highly-talented, gorgeous Halle Bailey", who also just happens to be black. What are we crying about, again?
  #93  
Old 07-09-2019, 01:05 AM
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n/m,

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-09-2019 at 01:06 AM.
  #94  
Old 07-09-2019, 06:37 AM
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Are you sure?

"They were six beautiful children; but the youngest was the prettiest of them all; her skin was as clear and delicate as a rose-leaf, and her eyes as blue as the deepest sea; but, like all the others, she had no feet, and her body ended in a fish’s tail."

Sounds to me like she's really, really, really white. Or bright red, depending on the species of rose.
Yeah, that's the line I quoted. If you read carefully, it doesn't talk about the color of her skin, just the complexion and texture. A black woman could have skin as clear and delicate as a rose-leaf. (That said, I find it a more natural reading that a 19th-century Danish author writing for an audience of Danes who loved descriptive writing would be likely to mention if his protagonist DIDN'T have white skin, and the failure to describe skin color is probably because he didn't even consider the possibility of non-white skin for her.)

But a post almost exactly like your first paragraph is what got her to blow the fuck up at me and call me a racist. Part of her evidence? The Danish mermaid statue is green. Unpack that one.

Later, when I (very politely) confronted her, she resorted to telling me that she's a professional writer, and sure enough, she's credited as a staff writer on shows like Daredevil. Which makes it worse IMO, as a writer ought to be better at reading.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 07-09-2019 at 06:37 AM.
  #95  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Yeah, that's the line I quoted. If you read carefully, it doesn't talk about the color of her skin, just the complexion and texture. A black woman could have skin as clear and delicate as a rose-leaf. (That said, I find it a more natural reading that a 19th-century Danish author writing for an audience of Danes who loved descriptive writing would be likely to mention if his protagonist DIDN'T have white skin, and the failure to describe skin color is probably because he didn't even consider the possibility of non-white skin for her.)
You seem to have skipped my post. That's not the only reference to skin color in the original story. There are multiple references to the mermaid having white skin in Andersen's story. (He also refers to the Prince looking like "a marble statue," and also having blue eyes. The whole cast is pretty Nordic.)
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:28 AM
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Well, no, she doesn't die, really. She turns to sea foam and becomes a spirit, given the opportunity to redeem herself and earn an immortal soul. Like being an undead creature, but a good one, I guess.
No, she definitely dies, which is why she turns into sea foam. But there's a whole thing about how mermaids don't have souls but because she's special yadda yadda yadda she gets a soul and gets to be an aerial [sic] spirit for 300 years and then go to heaven.

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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
So they wound up casting, as Freeform said, the "incredible, sensational, highly-talented, gorgeous Halle Bailey", who also just happens to be black. What are we crying about, again?
As long as she's a better singer than Emma Watson (and she is), I'm good.
  #97  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:37 AM
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And that's why there aren't any sea creatures with black skin. Or brown skin.

Or lamps on their foreheads. I'm just saying Disney's diversity message would ring a lot less hypocritical if the Little Mermaid was half-anglerfish. But nooo, she has to be one of the nice, PC fishes !
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  #98  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:40 AM
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But a post almost exactly like your first paragraph is what got her to blow the fuck up at me and call me a racist.

That's the modern world--anyone who doesn't agree with you precisely is the worst type of person you can imagine.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:47 AM
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Or lamps on their foreheads. I'm just saying Disney's diversity message would ring a lot less hypocritical if the Little Mermaid was half-anglerfish.

There is already a source that they can steal from.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:50 AM
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There are two redhead Disney princesses out of 12 in total. That's 8-16 x their occurunce in the population. I'd say they're already way overrepresented.
I think those complaints come mostly from women of a certain age. Iíve found that the Little Mermaid was a very big movie for girls a little younger than me who were the perfect age for the movie. Brave came along a generation later and is probably not even on their radar unless forced to watch over and over by their children. I canít help but think itís considered one of the lesser Disney movies.
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