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  #101  
Old 07-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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Interesting how 'better-looking' for some coincides with lighter skin and straighter hair.
  #102  
Old 07-15-2019, 02:51 PM
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Interesting how 'better-looking' for some coincides with lighter skin and straighter hair.
Interesting you got that out of this thread.
  #103  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:11 PM
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I am going to state, unequivocally and for the record, that the next Bond movie will feature one of these (or possibly several, with henchmen on them, chasing Bond).
  #104  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:19 PM
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I am going to state, unequivocally and for the record, that the next Bond movie will feature one of these
And invite Connery comparisons?
  #105  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:28 PM
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And invite Connery comparisons?
Yes, exactly!
  #106  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:58 PM
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What a cluster of a thread, full of misinformation.

Could a moderator please correct the thread title? It is wholly false.
  #107  
Old 07-15-2019, 04:36 PM
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I was working under the assumption that the thread title was close enough to attract the people who would be interested, and that the misinformation being corrected in the first reply was good enough.
  #108  
Old 07-15-2019, 04:40 PM
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I was working under the assumption that the thread title was close enough to attract the people who would be interested, and that the misinformation being corrected in the first reply was good enough.
I wouldn't say it was misinformation, that implies I had the intention to deceive. It was an error. Change it if you want.
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  #109  
Old 07-15-2019, 05:55 PM
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Judging from some of the reactions in this thread, I wonder if Q is going to issue her with some weaponized cooties...
  #110  
Old 07-15-2019, 06:33 PM
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Interesting you got that out of this thread.
...we didn't get that "out of the thread." We got it out of the posters who literally made direct comparisons to actors with lighter skin and straighter hair.
  #111  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:03 PM
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...we didn't get that "out of the thread." We got it out of the posters who literally made direct comparisons to actors with lighter skin and straighter hair.
One poster listed several choices, all who obviously aren't "black" enough for consideration, I guess. I dunno, they look black to me.

Yes, there is an issue in Hollywood where light skinned black women are used more. But the "posts" in this thread don't justify your reaction.
  #112  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:06 PM
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I really thought she was the weakest link in that film's generally strong cast. She had no real personality as a character, and even worse, she didn't have any chemistry with Brie Larson. I hope she does a better job as 007.
In Lynch's defense, Maria Rambeau was one of the most underwritten characters in the history of the MCU. Just pops up to provide a backstory exposition dump and a ham-fisted "you-go-girl" speech, and then disappears from the movie. I'd like to believe Lynch can do a better job with a more developed character and script.
  #113  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:09 PM
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It was gonna happen eventually.

The PC police would never rest until it they changed the iconic character of James Bond.

The sensible thing to do is create a character equal to Bond. There are many agents employed as intelligence officers in the Secret Intelligence Service. Why have we only been introduced to one agent?

We of course no longer live in a sane world. I won't waste my time or money watching a PC Bond.
what about the ridiculous Peter Sellers travesty Casino Royale?
  #114  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:11 PM
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One poster listed several choices, all who obviously aren't "black" enough for consideration, I guess. I dunno, they look black to me.
...of course they "all look black" to you. That doesn't surprise me at all.

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Yes, there is an issue in Hollywood where light skinned black women are used more. But the "posts" in this thread don't justify your reaction.
Don't tell me what should or shouldn't "justify my reaction." The issue of Hollywood using "light skinned black women" more is percisely because "light skinned black women" are perceived by many to be more "conventionally attractive". That attitude is coming across clearly in a few of the posts here. Someone even conveniently posted pictures to make that point.
  #115  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:16 PM
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I think this is a ridiculous argument. It is still a James Bond movie. James Bond retired in the previous movie, so it makes logical sense that MI6 would fill the vacant 007 slot with a new agent. There's no reason why in 2019 this could not be a woman, or a person of color. You're basically arguing that a supporting character in a Bond movie cannot be a black woman, a milestone that was passed back in 1973 with Live and Let Die (or maybe earlier).
did anyone complain that dozens of different actors portrayed Felix, including one who was Black?
  #116  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:45 PM
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I have no problem with this. In this day and age it's foolish to think 007 can only be a white male. And I like the idea that the 00 designation can be handed down to other agents.

Now if they were trying to set the movie back during the Cold War, it really wouldn't make sense. To all the snowflakes who find this the worst thing to ever happen, just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show,
I should really just relax."
I agree completely.

I remember, a couple of Bond movies back (back when it was floating around the Internet that the next 007 should be played by Idris Elba), a friend and I saw the latest (think it was Skyfall) and deciding that the first non-white 007 should be played by a Brit of Indian descent. We were trying to think of who should get the role, but we drew a blank. Dev Patel, maybe, but it's hard to imagine him portraying the more thuggish elements of Bond's character. He always seems so nice.
  #117  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:45 PM
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...of course they "all look black" to you. That doesn't surprise me at all.



Don't tell me what should or shouldn't "justify my reaction." The issue of Hollywood using "light skinned black women" more is percisely because "light skinned black women" are perceived by many to be more "conventionally attractive". That attitude is coming across clearly in a few of the posts here. Someone even conveniently posted pictures to make that point.
What doesn't surprise you? That I think those black actresses look black? Because I'm not sure what you're on about. And no one here is arguing that only light skinned black women need apply for the job of double-naught spy.

I'm not the casting director here. You have no idea how I feel about standards of black beauty.

The real test if a person is Black enough comes from how a racist treats them. If a bigot attacks them, no matter how light skinned they are, how straight their hair is, they're Black.
  #118  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:50 PM
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What doesn't surprise you? That I think those black actresses look black?
...yep.

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Because I'm not sure what you're on about.
Clearly.

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And no one here is arguing that only light skinned black women need apply for the job of double-naught spy.
Strawman.

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I'm not the casting director here. You have no idea how I feel about standards of black beauty.
I'm not claming that I do.

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The real test if a person is Black enough comes from how a racist treats them.
Incorrect.

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If a bigot attacks them, no matter how light skinned they are, how straight their hair is, they're Black.
What a strange assertion.
  #119  
Old 07-15-2019, 08:10 PM
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I remember, a couple of Bond movies back (back when it was floating around the Internet that the next 007 should be played by Idris Elba), a friend and I saw the latest (think it was Skyfall) and deciding that the first non-white 007 should be played by a Brit of Indian descent. We were trying to think of who should get the role, but we drew a blank. Dev Patel, maybe, but it's hard to imagine him portraying the more thuggish elements of Bond's character. He always seems so nice.

They really should have gone with Radzi.
  #120  
Old 07-15-2019, 08:39 PM
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...yep.
A lot of work to make no point. Still not sure what you're on about, but I no longer care.

Have a nice day.
  #121  
Old 07-15-2019, 09:37 PM
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The real test if a person is Black enough comes from how a racist treats them. If a bigot attacks them, no matter how light skinned they are, how straight their hair is, they're Black.
This reminds me of an interview I heard with Max Brooks a while back on NPR. He was talking about someone saying he wasn't really Jewish because his mother was not Jewish and that "Jewishness" goes through the mothers line.

He replied by saying, "I'm Jewish enough for Auswitch." That to me is all that needs to be said on the issue.
  #122  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:05 PM
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I agree completely.

I remember, a couple of Bond movies back (back when it was floating around the Internet that the next 007 should be played by Idris Elba), a friend and I saw the latest (think it was Skyfall) and deciding that the first non-white 007 should be played by a Brit of Indian descent. We were trying to think of who should get the role, but we drew a blank. Dev Patel, maybe, but it's hard to imagine him portraying the more thuggish elements of Bond's character. He always seems so nice.
Although, on second thought...
  #123  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:58 AM
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I'm sure it will be a roaring success.
After all, just think of how successful the all-girl Ghostbusters remake was!
  #124  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:42 AM
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I'm sure it will be a roaring success.
After all, just think of how successful the all-girl Ghostbusters remake was!
...the "all-girl" Ghostbusters remake (128 million domestic to a production budget of 144 million) was arguably more successful than the "all-guy" remake Star Trek Beyond (158 million domestic to a production budget of 185 million, released a week later), yet for some reason people don't run around every time there is a movie with a male lead saying things like "just think of how successful the all-guy Star Trek remake was!"
  #125  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:13 AM
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...the "all-girl" Ghostbusters remake (128 million domestic to a production budget of 144 million) was arguably more successful than the "all-guy" remake Star Trek Beyond (158 million domestic to a production budget of 185 million, released a week later), yet for some reason people don't run around every time there is a movie with a male lead saying things like "just think of how successful the all-guy Star Trek remake was!"
Also, Oceans 8, the all female Oceans 11 remake did well enough.
  #126  
Old 07-16-2019, 06:54 AM
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...the "all-girl" Ghostbusters remake (128 million domestic to a production budget of 144 million) was arguably more successful than the "all-guy" remake Star Trek Beyond (158 million domestic to a production budget of 185 million, released a week later), yet for some reason people don't run around every time there is a movie with a male lead saying things like "just think of how successful the all-guy Star Trek remake was!"
Because only an idiot would use the term "all-[gender] remake" to describe a remake that uses the same genders as the source material.

For example, there's a new Little Women coming out at the end of this year. Notice how I didn't say "a new all-female Little Women" because that would be a stupid thing to say. Further, if someone made an all-male version of Little Women, and it flopped at the box office, it would indeed be (rightly) cited as evidence that gender swapping from female to male might not be the brightest idea.

Last edited by Ellis Dee; 07-16-2019 at 06:56 AM.
  #127  
Old 07-16-2019, 06:58 AM
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Also, the last two Star Trek films have received PLENTY of criticism.
  #128  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:23 AM
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When was there ever an all-girl Ghostbusters? Was it a prequel to the 2016 movie, set when they were still children?
  #129  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:24 AM
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Because only an idiot would use the term "all-[gender] remake" to describe a remake that uses the same genders as the source material.
...well as I did use the term "all-[gender] remake" to describe a remake that uses the same genders as the source material, and you know that I did that because you quoted me, then you are calling me an idiot then.

That isn't very nice of you.

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For example, there's a new Little Women coming out at the end of this year. Notice how I didn't say "a new all-female Little Women" because that would be a stupid thing to say.
Who decided on this "remake" rule? I've never seen that before. Did you invent that rule? Because if you did then I don't see why I should have to follow it. I'm going to call the original Ghostbusters the "all-male Ghostbusters": does that violate that rule?

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Further, if someone made an all-male version of Little Women, and it flopped at the box office, it would indeed be (rightly) cited as evidence that gender swapping from female to male might not be the brightest idea.
Why? Was it the gender-swap (which, in the hands of an outstanding production team, could actually make it work), or was it something else?

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Also, the last two Star Trek films have received PLENTY of criticism.
LOL. You never get people dropping into threads making snarky comments about "how successful that Star Trek movie was!" Sure, they got criticisms. But those criticisms had nothing to do with the almost all-male cast.
  #130  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:24 AM
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[Moderating]
Oh, and I still think it shouldn't have been necessary, but I've edited the title.
  #131  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:32 AM
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.
LOL. You never get people dropping into threads making snarky comments about "how successful that Star Trek movie was!" Sure, they got criticisms. But those criticisms had nothing to do with the almost all-male cast.
Because people generally criticize changes; only rarely do they criticize the idea of repeating something that worked in the past. This, of course, can be multiplied by 100 for fan criticism.
  #132  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:54 AM
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Because people generally criticize changes; only rarely do they criticize the idea of repeating something that worked in the past. This, of course, can be multiplied by 100 for fan criticism.
...I think we are straying into "this has nothing to do with what I said I don't know why you quoted me to respond to" territory. The Ghostbusters remake was the movie that the goobers claimed was "made by and for SJW's." The actual constructive criticism of the movie got lost in a sea of alt-right activism. Leslie Jones got subjected to the most vile, racist and sexist hatred. Milo got suspended from twitter because of the hate he drove her way.

Nothing like that happened with Star Trek. The Ghostbusters remake is held up as some sort of an exemplar of what happens when you gender-swap a movie. But its performance at the box-office was on a par with similarly funded and reviewed movies. It did about the same. Star Trek was as much as a bomb as the Ghostbuster remake was. But it is never discussed in the same way.
  #133  
Old 07-16-2019, 08:00 AM
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Since no one has jumped in with this hot take yet, let me be the first:

The Bond franchise should be abandoned.

At its core is a character who is . . . ill suited for 21st century sensibilities, and even when the movie tones it down, the franchise still depends on the allure of the Bonds of yore.

Frankly, the best thing "they" can do to keep the franchise relevant is make Bond a woman and abandon the womanizing persona altogether. Still, to me, a 50 year run is more than ample, and I think someone would do well to write a new character free of Bond's baggage. Maybe that's what this will be, who knows.
  #134  
Old 07-16-2019, 08:07 AM
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Exactly, Bond was always a middle class white man's fantasy. There's really no way to make that relevant to modern times and its core audience is dying off. They can probably do what Mission Impossible did, make movies that have very little to do with the original material and keep the cool music.
  #135  
Old 07-16-2019, 08:56 AM
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Nothing like that happened with Star Trek. The Ghostbusters remake is held up as some sort of an exemplar of what happens when you gender-swap a movie. But its performance at the box-office was on a par with similarly funded and reviewed movies. It did about the same. Star Trek was as much as a bomb as the Ghostbuster remake was. But it is never discussed in the same way.
You make a great point. It IS strange -- almost inexplicable, really -- that Star Trek wasn't criticized for flipping role genders.

I mean, sure, Star Trek didn't actually do that, but that can't possibly explain why people didn't complain about something the movie didn't do.

What do you think is the reason people didn't harp on the gender flipping in Star Trek?
  #136  
Old 07-16-2019, 08:59 AM
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You make a great point. It IS strange -- almost inexplicable, really -- that Star Trek wasn't criticized for flipping role genders.

I mean, sure, Star Trek didn't actually do that, but that can't possibly explain why people didn't complain about something the movie didn't do.

What do you think is the reason people didn't harp on the gender flipping in Star Trek?
...hold on a second: is it your premise that there is something fundamentally wrong with gender flipping? You think the criticism of the Ghostbusters remake for flipping the gender actually had merit?
  #137  
Old 07-16-2019, 09:24 AM
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Nothing like that happened with Star Trek. The Ghostbusters remake is held up as some sort of an exemplar of what happens when you gender-swap a movie. But its performance at the box-office was on a par with similarly funded and reviewed movies. It did about the same. Star Trek was as much as a bomb as the Ghostbuster remake was. But it is never discussed in the same way.
I get what you're saying, but I think your logic is flawed. You're saying that Movie 1 could not have failed due to having Factor A, because Movie 2 did not have Factor A and also failed. That's like saying that Bob couldn't have crashed his car because he was drunk, because a week later Jim also crashed his car, and Jim was sober.


That said, I personally don't think that the new Ghostbusters failed because of the gender of its (excellent) cast; it failed because it just wasn't funny.

Last edited by Alessan; 07-16-2019 at 09:24 AM.
  #138  
Old 07-16-2019, 09:43 AM
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I get what you're saying, but I think your logic is flawed. You're saying that Movie 1 could not have failed due to having Factor A, because Movie 2 did not have Factor A and also failed.
...nope.

I'm saying the people who use the Ghostbusters remake as an exemplar of why casting a black woman as 007 is a mistake have gotten things completely and utterly wrong.
  #139  
Old 07-16-2019, 09:48 AM
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Star Trek was as much as a bomb as the Ghostbuster remake was. But it is never discussed in the same way.
Star Trek: Beyond wasn't a remake. I know it's getting a little bit pedantic, but it was a new movie in the JJ Abrams reboot universe.

The latest Ghostbusters movie was effectively a reboot of the franchise with an all-female cast. It wasn't actually particularly bad, truth be told.

They're apples and oranges to a large extent- Star Trek Beyond flopped because, like all three of the reboot movies, there's too much effects and not enough story, and they're coasting pretty heavily on the whole existing backstory and people coming to watch because it's a Star Trek movie, not because it's a good movie.

The last Ghostbusters movie suffered from something different- I think the original movie had a special place in a lot of people's hearts, and ANY reboot would have suffered by comparison, if it wasn't just absolutely stellar and reproduced a lot of the magic of the original. Combine that with the fact that gender-swaps like that are not always highly thought of, and you have a built in two strikes against it in a lot of people's minds. While it wasn't a *bad* movie, it wasn't good enough to overcome the inherent hostility to rebooting such a popular movie, and the added issue of a gender-swap in the bargain.

As for the Bond 25 thing... there's very little canonical information about what "007" actually means in terms of the Special Intelligence Service. We know it was James Bond's codename, and that the 00 agents have licenses to kill. But beyond that, we know very little Are there a dozen of them they send around as needed? Are the numbers indicative of certain responsibilities/roles/specializations? I.e. 001 might be a specialist in deep-cover operations, 002 might be a expert poisoner, etc... with 007 being a generalist of some kind. Or 007 might be the agent assigned to supra-national organized crime a-la SPECTRE, while 002 might be the one assigned to keep tabs on S. America. We don't know.

So having Bond retire and 007 be a woman doesn't necessarily mean anything. Fundamentally we haven't been watching 007 movies, we've been watching James Bond movies. And there's even movie proof- "License To Kill" takes place primarily when Bond has gone rogue after being suspended, so it's not really a 007 movie, but is most certainly a James Bond movie.
  #140  
Old 07-16-2019, 10:03 AM
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...hold on a second: is it your premise that there is something fundamentally wrong with gender flipping? You think the criticism of the Ghostbusters remake for flipping the gender actually had merit?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? People complained about the gender flipping in Ghostbusters and (dubiously) cited that as a reason it flopped. People didn't complain about gender-flipping in Star Trek because there wasn't any. (It also flopped.)

You presented the rhetorical "Why didn't people complain about Star Trek the same way they complained about Ghostbusters?" My point is that that is a stupid rhetorical question because there wasn't any gender flipping in Star Trek to make the comparison in the first place.
  #141  
Old 07-16-2019, 10:10 AM
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This discussion is burying the lede, sadly, which is that Pheobe Waller-Bridge is a writer on the new Bond movie. Pheobe Fucking Waller-Bridge. She's one of the most brilliant writers (and actors) working in television right now and is on an amazing hot streak. I can't WAIT to see her take on Bond. Just take my money right now.
  #142  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:02 AM
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Are you being deliberately obtuse? People complained about the gender flipping in Ghostbusters and (dubiously) cited that as a reason it flopped. People didn't complain about gender-flipping in Star Trek because there wasn't any. (It also flopped.)

You presented the rhetorical "Why didn't people complain about Star Trek the same way they complained about Ghostbusters?" My point is that that is a stupid rhetorical question because there wasn't any gender flipping in Star Trek to make the comparison in the first place.
I hesitate to jump into the quagmire, but I think I can speak for Banquet Bear by clarifying:

He claims that, compared to other franchise movies (like Star Trek), Ghostbusters wasn't statistically a meaningful "flop". Its cost and income are comparable.

So, to claim that it was a "flop" or obviously would have been bigger if only the cast wasn't all women is a totally unfounded statement.
  #143  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:29 AM
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Are there a dozen of them they send around as needed?
I would guess there are nine, tops, unless they get into quadruple digits. Although maybe there's a 000 who has a license to commit mass murder.
  #144  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
I am going to state, unequivocally and for the record, that the next Bond movie will feature one of these (or possibly several, with henchmen on them, chasing Bond).
The problem is, those things actually exist. Bond films (and similar) should have things that don't exist. Remember the laser in Goldfinger? The most powerful laser on the planet at that time could be blocked with a piece of paper. It was all in the screenwriter's head. I know, this is off-topic. But what is the point of Star Wars if you could get an R2D2 from Radio Shack? People want to see on screen what they can't see in real life.
  #145  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:32 AM
Just Asking Questions is offline
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
I would guess there are nine, tops, unless they get into quadruple digits. Although maybe there's a 000 who has a license to commit mass murder.
Agent 014 might not have had a LTK, but he was "twice as good as 007".
  #146  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
This thread is a nice concise way to out people for those of us that don't pay super close attention to posters' histories.
I was gonna say. Sheesh.
  #147  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Eonwe View Post
Frankly, the best thing "they" can do to keep the franchise relevant is make Bond a woman
Yes!
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...and abandon the womanizing persona altogether.
hold up... certainly some traditions are worth saving, aren't they?
  #148  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:51 AM
enalzi is online now
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Originally Posted by ShadowFacts View Post
This discussion is burying the lede, sadly, which is that Pheobe Waller-Bridge is a writer on the new Bond movie. Pheobe Fucking Waller-Bridge. She's one of the most brilliant writers (and actors) working in television right now and is on an amazing hot streak. I can't WAIT to see her take on Bond. Just take my money right now.
You mean a g-g-g-girl is writing James Bond?
  #149  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:56 AM
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What are some other things that Pheobe Waller-Bridge has written, so we can compare?

I'll admit, I don't usually pay much attention to the writers for TV shows and movies.
  #150  
Old 07-16-2019, 12:18 PM
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Fleabag, Killing Eve
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