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Old 12-05-2019, 04:18 PM
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What do you think of Hillary's smack down of Sanders?


Based on this CNN article. Apparently Hillary did an interview with Howard Stern (I didn't realize he was still enough of a thing to get the likes of Clinton to come on his show to do interviews) in which she either told it like it is or dissed on Sanders, depending on your thoughts. From the article:

Quote:
Asked by Stern whether she hated Sanders for the long primary campaign he ran against her in 2016 and the slowness with which he offered his eventual endorsement, Clinton said "I don't hate anybody," before adding about the time it took Sanders to endorse her: "He could have. He hurt me, there's no doubt about it."

Then she delivered the dagger: "And I hope he doesn't do it again to whoever gets the nomination. Once is enough."

Clinton's comments to Stern about Sanders are remarkable put-downs -- with multiple layers.
Quote:
Let's remember what Clinton said again: "And I hope he doesn't do it again to whoever gets the nomination. Once is enough."

Implied -- and not in very subtly -- in that comment is that Sanders isn't going to be the Democratic nominee in 2020. Which is a somewhat bold prediction -- given that Sanders is second in national polling and among the top four in Iowa, New Hampshire and beyond. To be clear: Sanders isn't the current frontrunner -- that's former vice president Joe Biden still -- but he's absolutely in the mix, making Clinton's seeming certainty that he won't be the nominee newsworthy.

Then there's the warning to Sanders that when he does lose again (as Clinton is sure he will), that he had better not repeat the slow-walk endorsement he gave her because he already cost the party a chance at beating Trump once. Which is heavy stuff!
For Clinton, always controlled, it's a noteworthy smack down (IMHO). What do you 'dopers think? Or is this a meh, don't care sort of thing since Clinton isn't running and is pretty much done with running for office?
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:26 PM
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Frankly, I feel like she's just saying what we all (or just me all) are thinking.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:31 PM
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He threatens the establishment; she is among the most looming of establishment figures on her side of the aisle, or at least she was until she lost to Trump, of all people.

I wish she'd have the good grace to retire. I think the American people have made it quite clear that they don't like her ideas. As Sanders keeps pointing out, his ideas do better and better each time they're polled. That doesn't mean that he'll be our next president, but he definitely changed the conversation within the democratic party. This is another feeble attempt by the establishment to steer the party back. They might succeed, too, but if so -- it will cost them the general election and we will get 4 more years of Trump.

IMHO, of course.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:59 PM
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There are plenty of people who have room to criticize. Clinton isn't one of them.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:27 PM
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Authority figure asked if anti-authority figure should be more respectful of authority figures.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:28 PM
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Because everyone absolutely fucking loathes Hillary Clinton, and just wishes she’d go away and take the memory of her historic electoral humiliation with her, I predict her comments will inspire a small, but noticeable bump in Sanders’ approval rating.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:44 PM
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I wish she'd have the good grace to retire. I think the American people have made it quite clear that they don't like her ideas.
Change she and her to he and him and that's how I feel about Bernie.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:55 PM
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Fuck Sanders. He should have endorsed as soon as he was mathematically eliminated. That being said, he wasn't the sole reason for Hillary's defeat. I blame:

1- Jim Comey's hamfisted announcement "SQUIRREL! EMAILS!"
2- The stupidity of the American public
3- Hillary ran a lousy campaign
4- Sanders being a dick
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:03 PM
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Change she and her to he and him and that's how I feel about Bernie.
I mostly like his ideas. I just don't like him. Mostly because he did play a small part in getting Trump elected thanks to his ego. There were other factors, but he sure didn't help defeat Trump.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:09 PM
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Fuck Sanders. He should have endorsed as soon as he was mathematically eliminated. That being said, he wasn't the sole reason for Hillary's defeat. I blame:

1- Jim Comey's hamfisted announcement "SQUIRREL! EMAILS!"
2- The stupidity of the American public
3- Hillary ran a lousy campaign
4- Sanders being a dick
I'd say the proper order is 2, 3, 1, 4. But that's just IMHO.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:17 PM
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I wish she'd have the good grace to retire. I think the American people have made it quite clear that they don't like her ideas.
Uh, last time I checked, she was retired with no plans on doing anything else professionally for the rest of her life. I didn't realize retired politicians appearing on a talk show was frowned upon.

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Because everyone absolutely fucking loathes Hillary Clinton,
Didn't read past this because it's nonsense.

From what I can tell, Hillary said Bernie's actions in 2016 hurt her, not that his actions, and his actions alone, cost her the election. For all the analysis of what happened in 2016 we've done around here, I would suspect Hillary's done ten times as much. I actually find her thoughts on the whole fucking nightmare to be pretty fascinating. I don't get all the anger toward her talking about her experience and perspective of the whole thing.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 12-05-2019 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:55 PM
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Sanders is an Independent and not a Democrat. Running for the nomination in 2016 and 2020 he is at best a DINO and not even that when he's not going for the nomination. I support the DNC (in 2016) and any Dem (even Hillary) that has an F him attitude.

I think she's wrong about him costing her the election but I just throw that on the pile of all the reasons she's wrong about why she lost. For example, in that interview she also said she lost because the EC is an unfair system but I think it's clear she didn't run her election as 51 individual elections. Don't blame the rules of the game when you don't follow them and lose. Bernie had nothing to do with that. Let's be honest, how many voters listened to Sanders and said, "Hmmmm, I think I'll vote for Stein." Oh and Stein cost her the election too (according to Clinton).

Last edited by Saint Cad; 12-05-2019 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:53 PM
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Uh, last time I checked, she was retired with no plans on doing anything else professionally for the rest of her life. I didn't realize retired politicians appearing on a talk show was frowned upon.



Didn't read past this because it's nonsense.

From what I can tell, Hillary said Bernie's actions in 2016 hurt her, not that his actions, and his actions alone, cost her the election. For all the analysis of what happened in 2016 we've done around here, I would suspect Hillary's done ten times as much. I actually find her thoughts on the whole fucking nightmare to be pretty fascinating. I don't get all the anger toward her talking about her experience and perspective of the whole thing.
I'm not the one who said that everyone loathes clinton, but your quote makes it look like I was.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:33 PM
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He threatens the establishment; she is among the most looming of establishment figures on her side of the aisle, or at least she was until she lost to Trump, of all people.

I wish she'd have the good grace to retire. I think the American people have made it quite clear that they don't like her ideas. As Sanders keeps pointing out, his ideas do better and better each time they're polled. That doesn't mean that he'll be our next president, but he definitely changed the conversation within the democratic party. This is another feeble attempt by the establishment to steer the party back. They might succeed, too, but if so -- it will cost them the general election and we will get 4 more years of Trump.

IMHO, of course.
Bolding mine. I'm not personally a fan of hers, but almost 3 million American people liked her ideas more than Trump's in 2016.

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Old 12-05-2019, 08:38 PM
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Fuck Sanders. He should have endorsed as soon as he was mathematically eliminated. That being said, he wasn't the sole reason for Hillary's defeat. I blame:

1- Jim Comey's hamfisted announcement "SQUIRREL! EMAILS!"
2- The stupidity of the American public
3- Hillary ran a lousy campaign
4- Sanders being a dick
I disagree with 3 and would characterize it as a fairly standard campaign. And I think there's a glaring oversight on your list:

5- The Russians.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:55 PM
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This is what I just posted in the Pit. She showed her true character. She lost because her facade was thin and it wasn't hard to turn people against her.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:57 PM
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I blame the American voter primarily. It's not just in 2016; we've screwed up a lot of other elections, too. The 2000 and 2004 elections, the elections in 1994 -- those were some pretty serious fuck-ups that set the stage for 2016.

"Yah, okay, so maybe they did lie about WMD...but you cain't quit on a president in the middle of a war! These colors never run! USA! USA! USA!"
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:03 PM
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I blame the American voter primarily. It's not just in 2016; we've screwed up a lot of other elections, too. The 2000 and 2004 elections, the elections in 1994 -- those were some pretty serious fuck-ups that set the stage for 2016.

"Yah, okay, so maybe they did lie about WMD...but you cain't quit on a president in the middle of a war! These colors never run! USA! USA! USA!"
I can't disagree with that. We put these clowns in office, we let them strip away our rights, we let them make a mess of the economy and the environment and too much of the rest of the world. But candidates claim to be the most qualified person for the job and that means they should know what the political landscape is and how to deal with it. Nobody gets an out because the system is a mess, we all have to live with it.
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:14 PM
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Quoth BobLibDem:

Fuck Sanders. He should have endorsed as soon as he was mathematically eliminated.
That's what he did do. Clinton thinks that wasn't soon enough.
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:25 PM
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That's what he did do. Clinton thinks that wasn't soon enough.
Hillary had a majority of delegates June 7. Sanders endorsed July 12.
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:25 PM
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That's what he did do. Clinton thinks that wasn't soon enough.
It's mathematically impossible for Bernie to win with pledged delegates (May 3, 2016)
[
Quote:
There’s one more reason for Bernie Sanders focus his energy on winning over super delegates — it's now mathematically impossible for him to reach the magic number for the Democratic nomination by winning the remaining pledged delegates alone.

Last edited by CarnalK; 12-05-2019 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 12-05-2019, 09:37 PM
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I’m not refighting 2016, that’s been done enough. I will say that Bernie will be a lot less effective in 2020. It’s not a one on one race. And, quite frankly, I don’t think the winning nominee should even bother with die hard Bernie supporters. They can ask for the nominee to ‘win their vote’ until they’re blue in the face. Just ignore them. Nothing will make them vote for any other nominee.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:21 PM
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... For Clinton, always controlled, it's a noteworthy smack down (IMHO). What do you 'dopers think? ...
It's not noteworthy for many reasons.

1) Yeah at this point she is just another talking head. She is playing pundit.

2) What she said is not anything that many other talking heads have not also stated.

3) My own take is the same as hers and that is also not at all noteworthy.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:36 PM
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Did I wind up in a parallel universe or something? In my timeline, Sanders gave a ringing endorsement of Clinton in a major speech at the convention. I don't get where these "Bernie was egotistical and got Trump elected by refusing to endorse Hillary" talking points are coming from.

Last edited by Smapti; 12-05-2019 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:53 AM
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I disagree with 3 and would characterize it as a fairly standard campaign. And I think there's a glaring oversight on your list:

5- The Russians.
Absolutely. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

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That's what he did do. Clinton thinks that wasn't soon enough.
There was a point where his only theoretical chance was to win over the superdelegates, which everyone knew was not going to happen. He fought on like the knight in the Monty Python movie who had every limb lopped off.

In the end, she ran a poor campaign. She didn't give voters a reason to vote for her. "I'm With Her" was a lousy slogan, it's like "It's all about ME ME ME ME ME ME". It's too egotistical, it's "I'm the one who has all the answers", instead of "I'm with you, we'll work together to make positive change.". Then why oh why did she not defend the blue wall (PA, MI, WI) rather than try to run the score up in AZ? She was warned that she was in trouble in the industrial midwest, she chose to ignore the warnings.
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:59 AM
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My take: this kind of thing from Hillary actually helps Bernie and continues to burnish his outsider credibility.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:06 AM
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Fuck Sanders. He should have endorsed as soon as he was mathematically eliminated. That being said, he wasn't the sole reason for Hillary's defeat. I blame:

1- Jim Comey's hamfisted announcement "SQUIRREL! EMAILS!"
2- The stupidity of the American public
3- Hillary ran a lousy campaign
4- Sanders being a dick
All of these (plus the Russians) were factors but ultimately the people responsible for Trump winning were the people that voted for Trump. It is not "Hillary's fault" that Trump won - this whole "It's the Democrats' fault for not stopping Republicans from destroying the country" rhetoric is cartoon villain bullshit. She could have run a better campaign but in the end enough people in the right constituencies voted for the man who was literally in the middle of a fraud case during the campaign and who was openly calling for foreign powers to commit crimes to hobble his opponent. It's those people who are at fault. Not Hillary, nor Bernie.

And while I'm at it, this sudden spate of "Let's Hillary/Barack and Bernie fight" threads in the past day or so is frankly a little suspect.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:41 AM
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Before the election, it was Her Turn. After, it is Not My Fault.
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Let's remember what Clinton said again: "And I hope he doesn't do it again to whoever gets the nomination. Once is enough."

Implied -- and not in very subtly -- in that comment is that Sanders isn't going to be the Democratic nominee in 2020.
I suspect that he won't be the nominee. And the devil will be wearing ice skates if he ever becomes President.

It might be interesting to see when and if Hillary endorses him if he does get the nom.

The idea that the five weeks between Sanders losing the primaries and endorsing Hillary hurt her all that much, or would have changed the outcome, is kind of silly, but people tell themselves what they want to believe. Donations to her foundation have been dropping steadily since she lost - maybe that is ticking her off too.

Hillary's gonna Hillary - whaddya gonna do.

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Old 12-06-2019, 11:09 AM
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My take: this kind of thing from Hillary actually helps Bernie and continues to burnish his outsider credibility.
Yes, now we all know Hillary isn't on team Sanders. The secret is out.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:20 AM
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Sanders's "I'm sick and tired of hearing about her damn emails" was a classy moment. He was never interested in attacking her over bullshit reasons.

As for the timing of his endorsement of her, how does that compare to the timing of her endorsement of Obama in 2008? Honest question.

It looks to me like a lot of folks want to marginalize leftists further, and this whole stupid attack on Sanders is as dumb as the leftists' attacks on Wasserman-Schulz. THere's definitely room for debate within the left on policy, but this sort of internecine squabbling is counterproductive.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:34 AM
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Sanders eventually supported Clinton, but I don't know if he tried hard enough to get his supporters to do the same.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:36 AM
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Did I wind up in a parallel universe or something? ...
Parallel, orthogonal, at some curved oblique angle, don't know. Some saw his endorsement as weak sauce served late too late in the meal. Didn't have good flavor and the servings so small!

But again, why does anyone care that that one talking head private citizen agrees or disagrees with our individual views of what was, what is, and what should be going forward?

Okay, if you respect the talking head and have seen them as a source of wisdom in the past you maybe listen up and would consider if they said something other than what you had already thought. And if you disrespect that person then you listen in order to have a chance to get righteously pissed about them again. In this case those who respect her already thought that way, and those who disrespect already did not, and so? Yawn. A "smackdown" requires having some impact. This does not.

She's not playing elder statesman, she's just sharing what she honestly thinks in response to questions in conversation ... that happen to be broadcast and that apparently some people still think matters. Funny that her detractors are the ones who imagine her as having power still.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:58 AM
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Yes, now we all know Hillary isn't on team Sanders. The secret is out.
Like lots of folks in high positions, she can be deluded by ego sometimes. I think this is one of those times.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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What is she delusional about?
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:05 PM
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I've never understood this strange, inexplicable hatred of Hillary. Much of the time, she's just saying things that are - well, factually correct. Maybe she's abrasive about it, but so what? There are dozens of R's and D's who are more dislikable than her.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:09 PM
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What is she delusional about?
That Bernie bears any blame for her loss, or that he "hurt her" by not coming around to endorse her when she would have preferred.

I don't think this is a big deal -- I don't think she's any more delusional than most other politicians. She's just a bit blinded by ego on this, and can't get over the bitter feelings, IMO. It's even understandable, considering that she lost to Trump. That must have been one of the most devastating experiences of her life.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:26 PM
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And while I'm at it, this sudden spate of "Let's Hillary/Barack and Bernie fight" threads in the past day or so is frankly a little suspect.
Sad but true. I don't think Kremlin is the only bugaboo, but in today's America it is the liars and haters who set much of the agenda for public discussion.

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I think the American people have made it quite clear that they don't like her ideas.
Strange comment. She got more votes than Trump. Many of those who opposed her, did not oppose her ideas. They opposed her on "character" issues — largely derived from right-wing lies or half-truths. And some of the dislike derived directly from the fact that she is a woman.

Hillary Rodham was a strong good-spirited woman who became a political candidate late in life. Although she gave famous successful speeches, she may have "lacked the common touch." It still took the help of Russia for the Lie Machine to defeat her.

We've gone round and round on the arguments and misconceptions in this thread. I'm posting only to compliment Mr. Velocity on getting it right. I've taken the liberty of changing the font size in his post.

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I've never understood this strange, inexplicable hatred of Hillary. Much of the time, she's just saying things that are - well, factually correct. Maybe she's abrasive about it, but so what? There are dozens of R's and D's who are more dislikable than her.
+++.

Last edited by septimus; 12-06-2019 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:55 PM
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I wish she'd have the good grace to retire. I think the American people have made it quite clear that they don't like her ideas.
She did win the popular vote, Babale.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:51 PM
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That Bernie bears ...
“Bernie Bears” ... better than Bernie Bros anyway. And captures the thought that their bearishness on HRC had consequences.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:24 PM
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That Bernie bears any blame for her loss, or that he "hurt her" by not coming around to endorse her when she would have preferred.

I don't think this is a big deal -- I don't think she's any more delusional than most other politicians. She's just a bit blinded by ego on this, and can't get over the bitter feelings, IMO. It's even understandable, considering that she lost to Trump. That must have been one of the most devastating experiences of her life.
That "delusion" is shared by a large chunk of Straight Dopers. DSeid just explicitly agreed with it entirely above. I find it funny that your analysis of Bernie's effect on the election is so obviously right that Clinton must be delusional because of her ego.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:25 PM
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That "delusion" is shared by a large chunk of Straight Dopers. DSeid just explicitly agreed with it entirely above. I find it funny that your analysis of Bernie's effect on the election is so obviously right that Clinton must be delusional because of her ego.
Maybe... but she should know better.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:04 PM
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Or maybe you're wrong and Bernie did in fact hurt her. Do you think the Russians were happy or sad that Bernie decided to keep running after being mathematically eliminated?

Last edited by CarnalK; 12-06-2019 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 12-06-2019, 03:30 PM
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Or maybe you're wrong and Bernie did in fact hurt her.
Maybe!
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Old 12-06-2019, 05:06 PM
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What do you think of Hillary's smack down of Sanders


Who the hell cares what Hillary says?
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:36 PM
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Absolutely. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:49 PM
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Clinton blames everyone but herself for her loss. Sanders isn't even a Democrat. Why would she expect anything from him? He doesn't owe the party anything.
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Old 12-06-2019, 10:51 PM
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Is that double reverse psychology or something?
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Because everyone absolutely fucking loathes Hillary Clinton, and just wishes she’d go away and take the memory of her historic electoral humiliation with her, I predict her comments will inspire a small, but noticeable bump in Sanders’ approval rating.
Historic in the sense of having a wider margin of popular vote support than any other person to lose the Electoral college? I guess all losses are "historic" in the sense that they're part of history. But she lost because of three states with a difference in votes that would barely fill a football stadium.
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Old 12-07-2019, 12:05 PM
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Sanders was mathematically eliminated when the superdelegates voted, and not before that. If you're going to have a system with superdelegates, then you can hardly fault a candidate for trying to convince the superdelegates to vote for him. That's not being a sore loser; it's playing the game the way it is.
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Old 12-07-2019, 01:36 PM
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Do Super delegates exist just to be sure the Party gets the candidate it wants?
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