View Poll Results: Who would you select on the 2019 Baseball HOF ballot? (Select no more than 10.)
Rick Ankiel 1 2.04%
Jason Bay 0 0%
Lance Berkman 1 2.04%
Barry Bonds 27 55.10%
Roger Clemens 30 61.22%
Freddy Garcia 0 0%
Jon Garland 0 0%
Travis Hafner 0 0%
Roy Halladay 34 69.39%
Todd Helton 6 12.24%
Andruw Jones 7 14.29%
Jeff Kent 3 6.12%
Ted Lilly 0 0%
Derek Lowe 0 0%
Edgar Martinez 31 63.27%
Fred McGriff 4 8.16%
Mike Mussina 26 53.06%
Darren Oliver 0 0%
Roy Oswalt 1 2.04%
Andy Pettitte 5 10.20%
Juan Pierre 0 0%
Placido Polanco 0 0%
Manny Ramirez 33 67.35%
Mariano Rivera 45 91.84%
Scott Rolen 8 16.33%
Curt Schilling 21 42.86%
Gary Sheffield 3 6.12%
Sammy Sosa 4 8.16%
Miguel Tejada 2 4.08%
Omar Vizquel 4 8.16%
Billy Wagner 1 2.04%
Larry Walker 16 32.65%
Vernon Wells 0 0%
Kevin Youkilis 2 4.08%
Michael Young 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 12-11-2018, 12:34 PM
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Back when ESPN.com had message boards (which were shut down 5 years ago), in the early 2000s there was a subforum called "Is Harold Baines a Hall of Famer if he gets 3000 hits?" This was in addition to the team boards and a few others like minor leagues. With maybe one exception, this stood out as an oddity and there was never much of any discussion there, just weird posts that were often troll-ish. Knowing how those boards were usually maintained, that subforum was probably still in existence a few years after Baines played his final game.
  #102  
Old 01-22-2019, 01:53 AM
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Bumped for tomorrow's announcement of who gets in the HOF.
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  #103  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:58 AM
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According to ballot trackers, Rivera is a slam dunk and Halladay and Edgar are almost certainly in. Mussina is a probable yes.

that's hard to argue with. Edgar isn't in my top four but what the hell, and the other guys are clearly a yes for me. If Mariano Rivera isn't a Hall of Famer you may as well shut the place down.

Clemens, Schilling, Bonds and Walker will all probably miss but not by much, and you never know. No one else will be elected.
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Last edited by RickJay; 01-22-2019 at 08:59 AM.
  #104  
Old 01-22-2019, 10:27 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Dunno about Walker, but I wonder if Clemens, Schilling, and Bonds have had to wait, not so much because of any questions about PED's, than because they're all miserable a-holes.

The three people who didn't vote for Junior Griffey, and any who don't vote for Mo, should all be stripped of their membership. I mean really.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 01-22-2019 at 10:29 AM.
  #105  
Old 01-22-2019, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
...
The three people who didn't vote for Junior Griffey, and any who don't vote for Mo, should all be stripped of their membership. I mean really.
I mean I kind of get it when you're limited to 10 and you feel strongly about guys who are just on the cusp. You know Mo's getting in, but Larry Walker needs every vote he can get. Now, if someone votes for fewer than 10 and Mo wasn't one of them, yeah strip his membership.
  #106  
Old 01-22-2019, 11:49 AM
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Last night, Nathaniel Rakich of 538 summarized several HOF predictions re Mussina here:
Quote:
@sarsdell: 75.2%
@ScottLindholm: 75.1%
———————
@baseballot: 74.0%
@rosscarey: 73.5%
@Porlos411: 73.5%
@cooperstowncred: 72.6%
Since then, @sarsdell upped his prediction for Moose to 75.5% of all ballots, @ScottLindholm upped his to 75.6%, and @Porlos411 edged down to 73.3%.

Sounds like Mussina's very much on the bubble here.
  #107  
Old 01-22-2019, 11:57 AM
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A friend just texted me the following list, which I have not fact-checked (but he is not the sort to send bad data):

Career WAR, 2019 HOF ballot:
Barry Bonds (1st half of career): 83.6
Mike Mussina: 83.0
Curt Schilling: 79.6
Barry Bonds (2nd half of career): 79.2
Roger Clemens (1st half of career): 73.3
Larry Walker: 72.7
Scott Rolen: 70.2
Manny Ramirez: 69.4
Edgar Ramirez: 68.4
Roger Clemens (2nd half of career): 65.7
Roy Halladay: 64.3

Which as far as I can tell means two things:

(1) If Barry Bonds had been eaten by an angry hippo in the winter of 1996, roughly two years before anyone contends he took any performance enhancing substances, he'd still have had a better career than anyone who will be elected to the Hall of Fame today and probably would have been in on the first ballot back in 2001; and also

(2) Scott Rolen had 70.2 career WAR? Holy crap.
  #108  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:42 PM
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Mariano, Mussina, Edgar and Halladay make it. Mariano at 100%.
  #109  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:50 PM
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Mariano, Mussina, Edgar and Halladay make it. Mariano at 100%.
4 of the 5 I named and the 4 I wanted to see get in. Nice!

Very happy to see Mo finally end the 100% BS. If a HOF'er is a sure thing, no doubt HOF'er, he should get 100%.
  #110  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:05 PM
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And the first to get 100%. Even Ruth got 95.13 and Hank Aaron got 97.83

Brian
  #111  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:19 PM
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Schilling goes up above 60 persent, which says he gets in eventually, especially if you look at the new pitchers coming on the ballot in the next few years. Walker looks like it will be touch and go. I'm surprised Pettitte didn't get more support.
  #112  
Old 01-22-2019, 08:58 PM
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“more people have walked on the moon than have scored an earned run off of Mariano Rivera in the postseason.” - Derek Jeter
  #113  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:47 PM
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Thanks to the baseball writers for not having some prig ruin unanimity for Mo.
  #114  
Old 01-22-2019, 09:56 PM
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Schilling goes up above 60 persent, which says he gets in eventually, especially if you look at the new pitchers coming on the ballot in the next few years. Walker looks like it will be touch and go. I'm surprised Pettitte didn't get more support.
Schilling probably gets in next year. Jeter is the only slam dunk over the next two elections, so maybe some of the backlog gets cleared up. Things get exciting again in 2022 when ARod and Big Papi make their first appearance on the ballot.

I'm excited for Mariano and Mussina. I guess Mussina goes in with an Orioles cap?
  #115  
Old 01-22-2019, 11:20 PM
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I'm excited for Mariano and Mussina. I guess Mussina goes in with an Orioles cap?
Its pretty close between Yanks & Os for Moose. The Hall will let him choose. No clue which cap he will pick.
  #116  
Old 01-23-2019, 08:32 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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Thanks to the baseball writers for not having some prig ruin unanimity for Mo.
It was close. Bill Ballou of the Worcester Telegram went public early enough to get it explained to him how wrong he was.
  #117  
Old 01-23-2019, 08:53 AM
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Shocked, shocked I am that it was a Boston writer who didn't want to vote for him. (Even in changing his mind he doesn't seem to fully understand the facts, still harping on saves being a flawed stat. Well, okay, how about his microscopic ERA? Incredible playoff numbers?

The absurdity of writers not voting for people like Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Cal Ripken is at least just trivia because they're in the hall anyway. Still, it's just so stupid.

Of the 250 or so players in the Hall of Fame, how many should have been unanimous, in the sense that

1. There is simply no rational argument against their enshrinement, and
2. They became eligible long after the initial logjam the writers faced in the first decade or two of Hall voting?

It's gotta be at LEAST fifty, right? At least. Ripken, Aaron, Mays, Frank Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Griffey, Jim Palmer, Ted Williams, Stan the Man, Bob Gibson, Yaz, Clemente, George Brett, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Joe Morgan, Wade Boggs, Warren Spahn, Pedro, Ozzie, Reggie, and more I am sure I can't recall. There was never any excuse for NOT voting for Greg Maddux and Stan Musial.
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  #118  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:11 AM
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Shocked, shocked I am that it was a Boston writer who didn't want to vote for him. . . .
I guess if you live in California, it's understandable that you might conflate Boston with Worcester. Try it around here though, and you'd be laughed out of the state.
  #119  
Old 01-23-2019, 11:14 AM
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Shocked, shocked I am that it was a Boston writer who didn't want to vote for him. (Even in changing his mind he doesn't seem to fully understand the facts, still harping on saves being a flawed stat. Well, okay, how about his microscopic ERA? Incredible playoff numbers?

The absurdity of writers not voting for people like Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Cal Ripken is at least just trivia because they're in the hall anyway. Still, it's just so stupid.

Of the 250 or so players in the Hall of Fame, how many should have been unanimous, in the sense that

1. There is simply no rational argument against their enshrinement, and
2. They became eligible long after the initial logjam the writers faced in the first decade or two of Hall voting?

It's gotta be at LEAST fifty, right? At least. Ripken, Aaron, Mays, Frank Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Griffey, Jim Palmer, Ted Williams, Stan the Man, Bob Gibson, Yaz, Clemente, George Brett, Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Joe Morgan, Wade Boggs, Warren Spahn, Pedro, Ozzie, Reggie, and more I am sure I can't recall. There was never any excuse for NOT voting for Greg Maddux and Stan Musial.

It is completely ridiculous. Why now, anyway? Rivera was great, but he wasn't the greatest baseball player of all-time. I think part of it was his personality; even those who hated him kind of liked him too.

Apparently, Hall voting and the applicable rules changed over the years but have been somewhat consistent since 1962. Joe Posnanski wrote an article five years ago about the 20 players who should have been inducted unanimously since then. It's mind boggling. Nine writers didn't vote for Hank Aaron. Twenty two neglected Stan Musial.
  #120  
Old 01-23-2019, 12:07 PM
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It is completely ridiculous. Why now, anyway? Rivera was great, but he wasn't the greatest baseball player of all-time.
Nobody serious thinks he was. Someone had to be the first, if only to break the idiotic cycle of voters leaving worthy players off the ballot in order to preserve the streak of no unanimous selections.

The refusal to unanimously select players was a bug, not a feature.
  #121  
Old 01-23-2019, 03:17 PM
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It is completely ridiculous. Why now, anyway? Rivera was great, but he wasn't the greatest baseball player of all-time.
Not even his family thinks that. He got 100% just because, finally, there weren't any idiots who wanted to draw attention to themselves by not voting for an obvious choice.

It is possible of course that some writers vote strategically, casting votes to help players they feel need it more than the slam dunks. I cannot necessarily fault someone for that, because the system they use kind of makes you want to do that in years where it's a busy ballot. The year Hank Aaron was elected there were a lot of good candidates; aside from the two men elected (Aaron and Frank Robinson) there were twelve other players who would eventually get in, and a few other popular candidates like Tony Oliva, Roger Maris, and Gil Hodges. I can understand someone feeling more than ten men deserve it and deciding to drop Aaron's name, who would get in anyway, to try to get Thurman Munson in.

I personally don't like strategic voting; my point is just I can see the logic, and so far as I am aware, no asshole wrote a Look At Me column about not voting for Aaron. Many, many Look At Me columns have been written about other candidates, though, such as the asshole who didn't vote for Mike Schmidt because Schmidt allegedly didn't sign enough autographs, the asshole who didn't vote for Greg Maddux because he refused to vote for any player who ever played at any time PEDs might have been used by any other player, and the asshole who didn't vote for Tom Glavine because he felt Glavine was cheating by convincing the umps to call strikes on pitches out of the strike zone.

Mind you, still a lot of idiocy in the balloting. Just not on the unanimity issue.
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  #122  
Old 01-23-2019, 06:56 PM
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I guess if you live in California, it's understandable that you might conflate Boston with Worcester. Try it around here though, and you'd be laughed out of the state.
What major league baseball team do you think the Worcester Telegram covers? Hint: not the team that plays in Pittsburgh. It's perfectly reasonable to describe Ballou as a Boston writer. After all, if not for Boston and its pro sports teams, he'd be reduced to covering the Holy Cross swimming and diving team.

More than that, Worcester has been a part of the Boston MSA since approximately forever. So it's a legit description on that count too.

(RickJay doesn't actually live in California, by the way, or anywhere nearby. I swear, New Englanders have the world's worst sense of geography...)
  #123  
Old 01-23-2019, 08:20 PM
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What major league baseball team do you think the Worcester Telegram covers?
Why the Worcester Bravehearts, of course! (oh you said major league.)

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Originally Posted by Ulf the Unwashed View Post
(RickJay doesn't actually live in California, by the way, or anywhere nearby. I swear, New Englanders have the world's worst sense of geography...)
I guess you must be right. I misread "Canada" as "California."

Last edited by jaycat; 01-23-2019 at 08:21 PM.
  #124  
Old 01-23-2019, 09:12 PM
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I get that relievers don't throw as many innings as starters, but when Rivera came into the game, he was often asked to perform in high-pressure situations. If a reliever has a bad inning, there's rarely an opportunity to settle into the game next inning. It's usually finish the game with a win, or get blamed for wasting an entire team's 8-innings of effort. Being a closer isn't like being a field goal kicker or coming off the bench to take the last shot in the NBA. It's one guy having to face three or more individuals, having to out-think them, having to pitch to the situation. A reliever can do a lot of things right and still fail.

And Mariano did fail. Spectacularly. More than once. He failed in the ALDS against Cleveland in 1997. He failed against the Arizona Diamondbacks in 2001. He failed twice in 24 hours against Boston and 2004. What makes Rivera so remarkable is that he had the mental toughness to recover from these epic embarrassments and remain an elite pitcher. After giving up a mammoth home run to Albert Pujols in the NLCS (which the Astros still won), it took Brad Lidge nearly 3 years before he returned to post-season dominance. There are other examples of athletes failing on the biggest stage in other sports and never really returning to what they were before. Rivera's arm was elite, but his mental toughness, his resilience was his greatest weapon.

Last edited by asahi; 01-23-2019 at 09:12 PM.
  #125  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:13 AM
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I always thought his greatest weapon was that unhittable cut fastball, but yeah, he was as mentally tough as they come, too.
  #126  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:34 AM
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An ESPN writer (Christina Kahrl) explains why she almost left Mariano Rivera off her ballot:

"Probably the most controversial thing I considered was dropping Mariano Rivera -- he's a slam-dunk Hall of Famer who didn't need my vote to get in, and I would rather have guaranteed that guys like Sosa, Sheffield and Andruw Jones were on the ballot in the years to come. Because of the rule of 10, any vote for someone hurts everyone you don't vote for, risking their elimination. But I also didn't want to deal with the inevitable "You didn't vote for Mo!" hysteria, since that's what people would have gotten hung up on, not the continuing problem of limiting voters' ballots to 10 names."

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...ur-voters-pick
  #127  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:26 AM
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I guess if you live in California, it's understandable that you might conflate Boston with Worcester. Try it around here though, and you'd be laughed out of the state.
I've visited California, but can't say I live there.

You know what's funny? I've also visited Worcester, and happen to know it's darned close to Boston and is Red Sox country all the way. It's what, just under an hour to Fenway Park if the traffic isn't too awful? Let's get serious here. Bill Ballou covers the Boston Red Sox. He is a Red Sox beat writer. He wrote a BOOK about the Red Sox. Of course I looked into the guy before describing him as a Boston writer, and in the context of discussing MLB, it is surely obvious that description means "a writer who primarily covers the team in Boston."

I live in Oakville, Ontario (not California, btw) which is distinctly not the same municipality as Toronto. It doesn't even border Toronto. It is, however, quite obviously in the market of the Toronto Blue Jays, and if I wrote columns about the Blue Jays and wrote a book about them, calling me a Toronto writer with respect to baseball would make quite a lot of sense.
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  #128  
Old 01-24-2019, 11:53 AM
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. . . You know what's funny? I've also visited Worcester, and happen to know it's darned close to Boston . . .
Geographically, sure. Spiritually, not so much. But your point is well taken. Mea culpa.
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