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  #1  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:32 PM
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Atamasama Atamasama is offline
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I hope the Browns go 0-16 again

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2...t-signs-browns

They just signed Kareem Hunt. I thought no team would be low enough to want him. I was wrong!
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:12 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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Oh for fucks sake. I'm not even saying this as a Browns fan, because I said what Kareem did was no big deal when it was a news story originally.

He fucking pushed a girl over who kept trying to instigate him into a fight. The guy could've fucking murdered her in 1 second in any number of ways if he wanted to. Yes, he could've walked away from the situation, but the actual assault against her was the most minor thing he could've done for her.

The reason he was cut from KC wasn't even that he did this thing, because it wasn't that big a deal. It was because he lied about the details of several incidents, breaking the trust the FO had in him.

What Kareem Hunt did was about 1/5000th as bad as what Ray Rice did, but you're going to act like this is a crime against humanity?

This is just agenda-driven outrage and possibly virtue signalling.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:14 AM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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One of the 32 teams was bound to sign Hunt. Unless you expected Hunt to remain un-signed forever?
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:22 AM
Isosleepy Isosleepy is offline
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He pushed and kicked a woman, and was held back a number of times when he tried to go after her. There’s plenty of places where you can go see the video. It for sure wasn’t “no big deal”. It was assault. Believing that this isn’t ok bhavior is not virtue signalling. It is being a f::cking human being.
(Edit this was in response to Senor beef’s post)

Last edited by Isosleepy; 02-14-2019 at 10:24 AM.
  #5  
Old 02-14-2019, 10:30 AM
Isosleepy Isosleepy is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
One of the 32 teams was bound to sign Hunt. Unless you expected Hunt to remain un-signed forever?
Maybe so. In which case they should expect some questioning of the decision, and having to eat some shit for it. My Steelers retained Rothlisberger after some (alleged) incidents. These incidents were not on tape and difficult to prove, but they still got a fair bit of grief for retaining him. Appropriately so, IMO. Had these incidents been on tape or proven beyond reasonable (i.e. not die-hard, willfully blind fan-level) doubt, retaining him would have been inexcusable.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:48 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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Video

0:41 he shoves her. This woman is calling him a nigger, and he pushes her away from him in a very casual way.

She continues to talk towards him aggressively, you can see it in her posture.

At 0:43, he pushes his friend away for trying to restrain him. At that point, the woman hits Kareem in the face.

At 0:50, his friends drag him away, two of the women aggressively follow them in, probably still shouting slurs.

At 0:57, one of the women push Kareem's friend, who was trying to counter-instigate. This push throws him off-balance into the woman, behind him, that his friend is trying to get out of the fucking hotel room because she's there to instigate more of a fight. The rebound from this collision knocks both that guy and the woman he was trying to prevent from approaching closer onto the ground.

Both of those things were brought on by the aggressiveness of the group of women. In one case, the guy further outside of the room simply put himself between her and the door so she couldn't advance. In the other case, the woman had managed to get her way into the room still screaming, and the other friend was dragging her out of the room.

At 1:06, Kareem comes back out with an aggressive posture, with one of them women holding him back. At 1:11, he gives the woman that punched him in the face the most fucking token half-hearted kick I've ever seen, which wouldn't injure a toddler.

What video are you guys watching?

If I was following Kareem Hunt into his hotel room, shouting "NIGGER" at him, while his friends tried to keep me away, do you think he'd settle for giving me this token light kick? No, he'd fucking destroy me. Oh, but I'm a man, and I'm strong enough to defend myself, right? Not against a fucking 22 year old NFL running back. That guy would probably kick the shit out of me with only slightly more difficulty than he would do it to that woman.

The group of women acted far more aggressively towards Kareem than Kareem and his friends acted towards the group of women. They yelled racial slurs at him. When Kareem and his friends attempted to retreat into his room, the women followed him determined to keep instigating. The removal of the one woman from the room, which looked like a perfectly proportional and necessary amount of force, ended up knocking Kareem's friend down when he was hit in the back, to which he came back out and tried to intimidate the women into leaving. At this point he could've easily destroyed and literally killed any of these women in seconds, but instead gave an extremely half-ass token kick to one.

Acting like this incident is some horrible crime and Hunt should be unemployable and marked for life, and that any team that does employ him deserves total failure, is fucking absurd. Kareem isn't even the instigator in this incident, he was attacked more than he attacked, and when he did "attack", it was without any real force or intent to harm.

At no point was the amount of restraint placed upon Hunt sufficient to actually stop him from fighting these women if he wanted to. His friends aren't going to actually be able to hold him back if he didn't want to be held back. He responded to aggressive instigation and being hit in the face with an aggressive posture meant to intimidate and a deliberately pathetic half ass kick to one of them.

The group of women were the instigators here, as far as we can tell, and were reported to be shouting racial epithets at the group. That said, I think Kareem and his group of friends actually responded with far less than the average level of reaction you'd get from a group of young black men against an aggressive group of women calling them "nigger", especially given that Hunt is near the pinnacle of human strength, agility, and fitness and could've easily murdered everyone there without putting much effort into it.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-14-2019 at 10:49 AM.
  #7  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Isosleepy View Post
My Steelers retained Rothlisberger after some (alleged) incidents. These incidents were not on tape and difficult to prove, but they still got a fair bit of grief for retaining him. Appropriately so, IMO. Had these incidents been on tape or proven beyond reasonable (i.e. not die-hard, willfully blind fan-level) doubt, retaining him would have been inexcusable.
Yeah, the Steelers lost me for good when they signed Michael (convicted dog fighter) Vick.
  #8  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:35 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
One of the 32 teams was bound to sign Hunt. Unless you expected Hunt to remain un-signed forever?
Does he stand for the National Anthem?
  #9  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:43 AM
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One of the 32 teams was bound to sign Hunt. Unless you expected Hunt to remain un-signed forever?
Until the investigation concluded at least. I understand wanting to sign him because heís an amazing back but itís only been a few months since this broke.
  #10  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:50 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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So if the NFL concludes their investigation and gives him a 4 game suspension.... at that point, it's okay for teams to sign him, but before that they deserve perpetual shame and loss?
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:09 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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I read a story in the Cleveland Plain Dealer sports section yesterday (by Mary Kay Cabot) in which she fawned over Browns' general manager John Dorsey's faith-based commitment to give "second chances" to problem players (including Tyreek Hill, who choked and punched his pregnant girlfriend, but is now a "model citizen").

I would've asked Dorsey what second chances of this nature he has given to marginal talents, as opposed to stars.
  #12  
Old 02-14-2019, 01:53 PM
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I'm with Beef on this one (and I wish the Browns hadn't signed him because now their RB group is fucking awesome).

The Bengals drafted and signed Joe Mixon...remember him? The 18 year old collegiate player that was being taunted with racial epithets by a white woman and he socked her in the face so hard he fractured it?

That was more egregious than what Hunt did...but Mixon was only 18 years old and has been nothing but contrite since then (and hasn't gotten into ANY trouble).

Did he not deserve a second chance either?
  #13  
Old 02-14-2019, 02:45 PM
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The newsreader of the video posted in post #6 said, "after they spent the night with friends in a party bus". I wonder what kind of "party bus" they are referring to? Was this a large SUV owned by one of the participants in this dustup, or did it belong to a profession charter service? Do video's of the ride exist?

In the hotel hallway video, both sides seem to be pretty aggressive. Both sides seemed to have experience intervening in/breaking up fights.
  #14  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:32 PM
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Oh for fucks sake. I'm not even saying this as a Browns fan, because I said what Kareem did was no big deal when it was a news story originally.

He fucking pushed a girl over who kept trying to instigate him into a fight. The guy could've fucking murdered her in 1 second in any number of ways if he wanted to. Yes, he could've walked away from the situation, but the actual assault against her was the most minor thing he could've done for her.

The reason he was cut from KC wasn't even that he did this thing, because it wasn't that big a deal. It was because he lied about the details of several incidents, breaking the trust the FO had in him.

What Kareem Hunt did was about 1/5000th as bad as what Ray Rice did, but you're going to act like this is a crime against humanity?

This is just agenda-driven outrage and possibly virtue signalling.
This is a ridiculously dishonest assessment of that video.
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Old 02-15-2019, 12:38 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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I broke it down second by second. Tell me what I'm not describing correctly.

Personally, I think you're all discrediting actual domestic violence by trying to pretend that this bullshit is anything like that. People get trapped in abusive, horrible, relationships where they're bullied, controlled, and hurt by their partner.

To even pretend that some woman hounding the dude, following him into his room when he tries to leave the situation, shouting nigger at him, and punching him in the fucking face, who in return gets a tap that wouldn't hurt a toddler as if those were similar sorts of crimes, just because it involved a man making contact with a woman, is fucking absurd. I am mystified that anyone thinks this is even within 10 tiers of what Ray Rice, or probably like 25% of NFL players, did.

Because you know actual domestic abuse is probably super common in the NFL, right? A bunch of kids who've been told from an early age that they're king shit, that they can solve their problems with violence, demands them to live up to super testosterone-laden "manly" standards means it's probably everywhere. People in the NFL kill people with DUIs. They beat their spouses. This is fucking nothing - this is trivial in comparison.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-15-2019 at 12:43 PM.
  #16  
Old 02-15-2019, 12:59 PM
storyteller0910 storyteller0910 is offline
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
What Kareem Hunt did was about 1/5000th as bad as what Ray Rice did, but you're going to act like this is a crime against humanity?

This is just agenda-driven outrage and possibly virtue signalling.
I'm not really sure there's a lot of value in debating the facts of the case. We're both looking at the same video, and if you look at it and say "no big deal" (as you do) and I look at it and say "yes, big deal" (as I do), I think we've sort of reached the end of the line on that conversation. We disagree, and that's OK.

I do, thought, want to comment on the two sentences quoted above. First of all, yes, what Kareem Hunt did is not as bad as what Ray Rice did. But: (1) no one is using the phrase "crime against humanity" in either case. If asked to describe what Kareem Hunt did, I'd say "assault." If asked to describe what Ray Rice did, I'd say "assault of significantly greater severity." But (2) "what Person X did is not as bad as what Person Y did" is not a valid defense of Person X's actions.

More importantly, though, the second sentence. This is becoming an epidemic, not just from you but all over the place, and I don't know why this instance of it got under my skin but it did and so here we are. Claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is either "agenda-driven" or "virtue signalling" is bad faith arguing at its worst. Please stop doing it. I disagree with you about Kareem Hunt, but I have no particular agenda and I'm definitely not virtue signalling (whatever the hell that actually means). But having watched the video, I see no particular reason why he deserves a spot in the NFL and his association with the product makes me less interested in consuming it. You disagree with me - and again, that's fine - but why do you assume I've come by my opinion any less honestly than you came by yours?
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:01 PM
Omniscient Omniscient is offline
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I broke it down second by second. Tell me what I'm not describing correctly.

Personally, I think you're all discrediting actual domestic violence by trying to pretend that this bullshit is anything like that. People get trapped in abusive, horrible, relationships where they're bullied, controlled, and hurt by their partner.

To even pretend that some woman hounding the dude, following him into his room when he tries to leave the situation, shouting nigger at him, and punching him in the fucking face, who in return gets a tap that wouldn't hurt a toddler as if those were similar sorts of crimes, just because it involved a man making contact with a woman, is fucking absurd. I am mystified that anyone thinks this is even within 10 tiers of what Ray Rice, or probably like 25% of NFL players, did.

Because you know actual domestic abuse is probably super common in the NFL, right? A bunch of kids who've been told from an early age that they're king shit, that they can solve their problems with violence, demands them to live up to super testosterone-laden "manly" standards means it's probably everywhere. People in the NFL kill people with DUIs. They beat their spouses. This is fucking nothing - this is trivial in comparison.
First off.....no tape exists with audio. So you're taking the racial epithets only on Hunt's word. May or may not have happened.

More glaringly, you entirely characterized this as some NFL player acting in self-defense and acting with restraint. Nevermind the part where he went out of his way to get in a good kick when she's on the ground and doing nothing.

The whataboutism that you're spouting is fucking ridiculous. In today's new climate, it's a real problem.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:03 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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Explain to me, using detailed observations from the video, what specifically he did that was so outrageous, so egregious, that he should be denied a career in the NFL.

Feel free to break it down moment by moment as I did, and explain to me what you see that I'm apparently missing.

Also, estimate for me the average number of players on each NFL team who has done something worse than this.

Also, do you think that Hunt's reaction is less than, the same, or more than what you would expect out of the average young black man who has a woman following him (even into his room as he retreated), hitting him in the face, and shouting "NIGGER" at him?

Do you think the kick he gave to her could've possibly resulted in injury? What percentage of his potential strength do you think he's using to take that action? Do you feel that it was a serious attempt to harm the woman?

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-15-2019 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:10 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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More questions, if you don't mind:

What would you think if this video was identical, but it was a group of men instead of women who were instigating the fight?

Do you feel like Kareem demonstrated restraint in the situation at any point?

Do you feel that he retreated but was continually hounded anyway, at any point?

Do you think at any point he was attempting to disengage from the situation but could not do so because of the tenacity of the instigators?

These are open to anyone.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-15-2019 at 01:11 PM.
  #20  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:16 PM
storyteller0910 storyteller0910 is offline
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Explain to me, using detailed observations from the video, what specifically he did that was so outrageous, so egregious, that he should be denied a career in the NFL.

Feel free to break it down moment by moment as I did, and explain to me what you see that I'm apparently missing.
Again, I'm not interested in going through this moment by moment with you. We're both looking at the same things; is there really any chance that I'm going to convince you or that you're going to convince me? All I'm trying to say is that it shitty to imply that other people arrived at their opinions about this less honestly than you arrived at your own.

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Also, estimate for me the average number of players on each NFL team who has done something worse than this.
I don't know. It's not relevant. The existence of worse things does not make a bad thing better. Freddy Got Fingered exists, but Batman v. Superman was still a bad movie.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:20 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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How does it not matter? The OP of this thread suggests that the Browns should go 0-16 next year, affecting hundreds of people on the team, team staff, and millions of fans, because what they did was so unthinkingable that they deserve that degree of punishment. Because what Hunt did was so egregiously unforgivable that it's an automatic career-ender, and any team that thought otherwise and refused to deny him a career should have nothing but failure come their way.

If we could agree that most likely every NFL team has 10 players on it that have done much worse than this, then it doesn't make any sense to point this incident out as a career-ender, and year-ender for any team that dared give him a chance, and yet it's okay to continue to root for those other teams with the players who all did worse things.

The OP posits that what Hunt did is so egregious that a black mark against him and any team that would have him is the only justifiable response. You don't think severity plays a role here? Or it's just "whether it's 1/10000th as bad as something else, or half as bad as something else, either way, it's bad"
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:31 PM
storyteller0910 storyteller0910 is offline
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How does it not matter? The OP of this thread suggests that the Browns should go 0-16 next year, affecting hundreds of people on the team, team staff, and millions of fans, because what they did was so unthinkingable that they deserve that degree of punishment. Because what Hunt did was so egregiously unforgivable that it's an automatic career-ender, and any team that thought otherwise and refused to deny him a career should have nothing but failure come their way.

If we could agree that most likely every NFL team has 10 players on it that have done much worse than this, then it doesn't make any sense to point this incident out as a career-ender, and year-ender for any team that dared give him a chance, and yet it's okay to continue to root for those other teams with the players who all did worse things.

The OP posits that what Hunt did is so egregious that a black mark against him and any team that would have him is the only justifiable response. You don't think severity plays a role here? Or it's just "whether it's 1/10000th as bad as something else, or half as bad as something else, either way, it's bad"
OK, fair enough. But I reject your premise. Here, here's the roster for my team, the New York Giants:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/roster/...ew-york-giants

That's a lot of guys, who span a range from replacement-level talent to some of the best players at their respective positions. Which 10 of these guys have - provably by video evidence - done something worse than what Kareem Hunt did?

Because that's the issue. Sure, it's possible that, like, Nate Solder murders ferrets for fun (which would, yes, be worse than shoving, attempting to hit, and then kicking a prone person!). But we don't know that, so the Giants can't be blamed for employing Nate and I can still enjoy rooting for them. But Kareem Hunt did a bad thing and we saw it happen. Unlike my Giants, who are unwittingly employing Serial Ferret Abuser Nate Solder, the Browns made a conscious decision that they wanted Hunt on their team knowing what he did. And thus I, and others who think like me, can make the equal conscious decision to root against them and hope they fail.

Last edited by storyteller0910; 02-15-2019 at 01:32 PM.
  #23  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:34 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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Alright, let me try to state a case rather than making it piecemeal.

When Ray Rice beat the shit out of his girlfriend, it wasn't just horrific because he was clearly attempting to injure her, but because it suggested a pattern of behavior. He likely intimidated and controlled her through threats and actual physical violence. That is horrific.

The Kareem Hunt situation is basically the opposite of that. It's clear that at least two of the women from that group of women were the instigators of whatever was being argued about in that video. It's obvious by the body language, and they follow the men even as they attempt to de-escalate by retreating.

Among young men, particularly testosterone-laden athletes, it would be very atypical to simply completely stand down and retreat when confronted with what are reported to be racial slurs directed at them. There's some posturing involved in these incidents. Men are supposed to hold each other back, demonstrating that while the person who is being verbally attacked isn't backing down, he's taking his friends advice to let it get the better of him and let it escalate. I'm sure you've seen these "hold me back" behaviors as part of posturing dozens of times in your life. No-one there could actually restrain Kareem Hunt. He is, given his skill set and physique, one of the least restrainable people on Earth. A collective effort by 3 or 4 people may have restrained him, but that's not what we see, and it's clear that the restraining is of the "save face/appeal to better nature/give him a reason not to escalate" posturing sort.

He did initiate physical contact with the woman. He pushed her back after she got into his personal space to say something to him. This is a pretty normal response to someone literally stepping into the area just inches from your face in an attempt to instigate/intimidate. He didn't try to knock her over, or strike her, he was asserting his own personal space, which she had invaded. If I were on a jury, I would not convict for assault for that level of touching, given that she made the physically aggressive move towards him.

His friend tries to intervene, and he pushes his friend away. This is less defensible, since it's a reaction of his that's genuinely pissed off and not just playing into the "hold me back bro!" posturing I mentioned above. But he's not trying to hurt his friend, obviously.

The woman then takes another step towards Kareem, and punches him in the face. We all saw that, right? I would say not responding to this by striking her back shows at least an average level of self-restraint. Yes, he's a big strong man, and she's a dainty little woman, but you shouldn't be fucking approaching people and punching them in the face. To him, punching back would be an almost automatic reaction, but he doesn't, because he's not looking for an opportunity to harm her.

At this point, Hunt allows himself to be dragged to the bedroom - this is posturing, again, because no one guy there is going to be able to contain Hunt if he didn't want to allow it - and a woman from the group follows him into his hotel room.

His friend had to drag the woman out of the hotel room to try to break it up. In the process, she ran into his other friend, who was holding another woman back from entering the hotel room too. It very well may have looked to Kareem like the woman who was being forced out of the room assaulted his friend, who was knocked over. Seeing the video, that's not the case - they bumped into each other's back - but that clearly flared back up the confrontation, so it's entirely plausible that at that point Kareem thought his friend had just been assaulted.

At this point a woman attempts to restrain Kareem and keep him away from the girl who'd knocked his friend over and then fallen. Again, she could not have possibly have actually restrained him - if he was interested in inflicting harm, he would've.

He then kicks the squatting woman who knocked down his friend - squatting, not prone - with almost no force at all. It's really more of a leg shove than a kick.There was clearly no intent to injure. Why did he do it? I don't know, a face saving move? Frustration? Maybe he thought of kicking her for real, but caught himself mid-kick and dialed the force back to almost nothing. The end result is almost no force was actually exerted onto her. This is the egregious part, I guess, but can anyone look at that kick and seriously be outraged?

Now imagine for a moment that it was another group of young men doing the same thing these women did. The moment that the other group of men called Hunt or his friends niggers, Hunt's group would've been justified in kicking the shit out of them, right? And if not at that point, certainly after the point where the instigator punches him in the face - that would trigger a severe beatdown that I don't think many people would complain about.

So why the difference? Because a man, under no circumstances, should ever be able to shove a woman, even after she's called him a nigger and punched him in the face? Because whenever a man lays a hand on a woman, for any reason, it's morally equivalent to what Ray Rice did?

This was nothing like what Rice did. The woman could've left at any time. Hunt was not controlling her or abusing her. She was the instigator. She threw a full on punch to his face, and he never responded by using even a tiny fraction of the force he could've responded with. He actually allowed himself to be dragged back into his room to retreat from the situaton, but they followed him in there, and then (seemingly) followed him in there and knocked his friend over. All while possibly screaming racial slurs.

This is why I called it virtue signalling. People who want to engage in virtue signalling will often act like any physical contact a man gives to a woman, even if she's in the fucking middle of punching him in the face and calling him a nigger, very loudly and visibly attempt to judge him. They even engage in hyperbole - like, say, the team that hired him should lose all their games indefinitely because what they did was so unthinkable - because the louder and more severe your condemnation of it, the greater the virtue signalling.

I have a very difficult time believing that someone watched that video and took away from it "oh man, that Kareem hunt is out of control. What he did was so unforgivable his career should be over, and any team that would have it should lose perpetually for hiring such concentrated evil." sincerely, and so any such over the top condemnations are more about virtue signalling than a serious analysis of what happened.

I would seriously contend that he acted with above average restraint in this instance, that the level of provocation directed at him would've justified more force on his part, and that if it were men, instead of women, no one would ever think twice of it. It might even be brought up as some sort of Justice Served Justified Beatdown story.

And I sincerely think that, given how fucking strong, agile, and athletic Hunt is, that it really doesn't matter that much whether this was a man or a woman - he would easily wipe floor with either. If the whole reason we'd treat this differently if it was a man punching Hunt in the face and yelling nigger at him differently is the disparity in physical strength - the difference between Hunt and the average dude is probably about as wide a gap as the average man and the average woman.

He would've never showed that much restraint to a man, though, and would've destroyed him as easily as he could've destroyed that woman.

I think that by pretending that this incident is anything even remotely like a man controlling a woman through violence, pain, and intimidation, like Ray Rice or other domestic violence incidents, only serves to cheapen our reactions to the latter. For fucks sake, this is a trashy, instigating woman doing her best to escalate the situation the whole time, shouting racial slurs, and punching him in the fucking face, and we think he's irredeemably evil because he made restrained, almost token contact with her.

I have no idea why I even wrote this out. This is fucking stupid. She is so obviously in the wrong in this situation, so obviously provoking him, and clearly assaulting him (her punch to his face was way more egregious than his shove-kick) that the only reason I can think of that other people aren't seeing this obviously is because we're all trying to compete to show how much we hate evil toxic men and want to protect innocent women even though it's totally misplaced. Hence, I thought the hyperbolic reaction (A POX TO ANY TEAM THAT WOULD HAVE HIM!) was more virtue signalling than a genuine reaction to what happened. I'm actually offended that we're treating this incident with equal or more outrage with incidents that actually involve men committing violence against women with intent to harm and control.

Omni accuses me of being dishonest in my assessment of what happened. I literally do not even understand how. I gave a second by second analysis of what the video shows, and no one seems to actually disagree with what I said, but are still treating it like some unspeakable crime happened and I'm just covering it up with lies.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-15-2019 at 02:37 PM.
  #24  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:47 PM
Omniscient Omniscient is offline
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Explain to me, using detailed observations from the video, what specifically he did that was so outrageous, so egregious, that he should be denied a career in the NFL.

Feel free to break it down moment by moment as I did, and explain to me what you see that I'm apparently missing.

Also, estimate for me the average number of players on each NFL team who has done something worse than this.

Also, do you think that Hunt's reaction is less than, the same, or more than what you would expect out of the average young black man who has a woman following him (even into his room as he retreated), hitting him in the face, and shouting "NIGGER" at him?

Do you think the kick he gave to her could've possibly resulted in injury? What percentage of his potential strength do you think he's using to take that action? Do you feel that it was a serious attempt to harm the woman?
I made no comment on what Hunt's NFL status should or should not be. What is your point here?

I am not placing any value judgement on what he did yet. The information is incomplete. Your constant whataboutism is totally irrelevant and it has no merit here at all.

My statement simply stated that your initial description of events is dishonest. You later broke down the video and applied a ton of rationalizations, but this does not change the fact that my originally quoted comment of yours was misleading at best. It should not be surprising that many of the folks in this thread are taking your points as a highly biased bit of spin-doctoring.

Last edited by Omniscient; 02-15-2019 at 02:47 PM.
  #25  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:51 PM
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Also, I've seen actual incidents in which women have attempted to harm men seriously - like when she punches him in the face with what appears to be all her force - and if the man so much as pushes her away to extract himself from the situation, white knights rush in to either shame or physically fucking punish the guy who tried to just stop being assaulted. It's fucking ridiculous that we treat women assaulting men as something that they should just always endure, and not only never retaliate, but not even defend themselves and attempt to deflect the damage. This, again, strikes me as a sort of virtue signalling where we all fall over ourselves to ignore that women can attack men, and then try to shame and/or beat up a guy for just trying to fucking stop being attacked. It's fucking ridiculous. This woman got right in his face and fucking punched him in the face as hard as he could and I doubt any of you would even note that if you wrote up your perception of what happened in the incident.

For fucks sake, she screamed "nigger" at him, punched him in the face, followed him into his fucking hotel room when he attemped to retreat from the situation, appeared to knock over and possibly injure his friend, and no one gives a shit about that.

No, none of that matters - only that he shoved her, and so his fucking career should be over, his livelihood gone, the thing he's trained all his life for, the only thing he'll likely be able to make any real money at, and the thing he's put his body through for years through playing in school for a shot at the NFL one day should be over, and any fucking team that dare sign him should never win another game again, because his crimes are just too fucking great.

He showed more restraint than the average young man would do in his situation. And if a man had done this to him, no one would give a shit. But only because we've decided that women should be able to free to scream racial slurs, punch men in the face, and follow them when they try to retreat, and if a man even lays a fucking finger on her in retaliation, even if it poses no chance at all of injuring her and clearly had no intention to injure her was this even an incident, let alone a fucking career-ender and franchise-ender for someone who signed him. Call it what you want - a gross double standard, virtue signalling - but implying Hunt is a monster for what we saw on the video is fucking bullshit. And the more vigorously we bash Hunt (THE WHOLE NFL SHOULD JUST FOLD UP IF ANYONE SIGNS HITLER HIMSELF!), the more credit we get for recognizing Hunt's toxic masculinity practically destroyed that poor innocent woman. Gah.
  #26  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:56 PM
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For fucks sake, she screamed "nigger" at him
Prove it.
  #27  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:03 PM
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My statement simply stated that your initial description of events is dishonest. You later broke down the video and applied a ton of rationalizations, but this does not change the fact that my originally quoted comment of yours was misleading at best. It should not be surprising that many of the folks in this thread are taking your points as a highly biased bit of spin-doctoring.
Alright, let's break this down piece by piece, and you can tell me what's dishonest.

First of all, your assertion that I'm biased is bullshit and I'd happily insult you over it if this were the pit. His being on the Browns has no fucking bearing on my opinion of this shit and I'm insulted that you think it does. I know I posted on reddit about it when the video was released about how he "brutalized" her. But reddit's search is useless, and google doesn't search reddit well. However, if you don't believe what I'm telling you right now, I will click the stupid fucking "previous page" on my reddit comment history 87 times or however far I have to go back to prove that to you if you want.

So, this is the post you labelled dishonest:

1. Oh for fucks sake. I'm not even saying this as a Browns fan, because I said what Kareem did was no big deal when it was a news story originally.

2. He fucking pushed a girl over

3. who kept trying to instigate him into a fight.

4. The guy could've fucking murdered her in 1 second in any number of ways if he wanted to.

5. Yes, he could've walked away from the situation, but the actual assault against her was the most minor thing he could've done for her.

6. The reason he was cut from KC wasn't even that he did this thing, because it wasn't that big a deal. It was because he lied about the details of several incidents, breaking the trust the FO had in him.

7. What Kareem Hunt did was about 1/5000th as bad as what Ray Rice did, but you're going to act like this is a crime against humanity?

8. This is just agenda-driven outrage and possibly virtue signalling.[/QUOTE]

Which parts specifically are dishonest?
  #28  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:16 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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Prove it.
Well you're right, I can't. There's no audio feed on the video. Various reports say "witnesses say" or "Hunt's friends say" that she dropped racial slurs, so obviously that's not proof.

I do think it's consistent with the way everyone in the video reacted. It's not my regular scene, but I've seen trashy ass drunken spats like this and it's entirely consistent that women who are clearly hounding men, screaming, and trying to instigate a fight in this fashion very commonly do drop racial slurs. But I can't prove it.

But just based on the sort of behavior I've seen like this in the past, the level of screaming and aggression, it seems to me more likely than not, given that this was reported by people who were trying to de-escalate the conflict, that those things were said. I find the report entirely credible.

So it's not fair to treat it as if it were fact, but at the same time it's not fair to treat it as though it conclusively didn't happen simply because there wasn't an audio recording. I tend to believe the people trying to de-escalate a conflict over the screaming, assaulting, following, instigating group that appeared to cause the disturbance.

I think it's clear from the video - whatever was said, it was provocative and aggressive. Dropping racial slurs, as witnesses apparently report, is entirely consistent with what we see.
  #29  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:29 PM
Omniscient Omniscient is offline
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I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of lying by omission, no?

Since you're insisting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
1. Oh for fucks sake. I'm not even saying this as a Browns fan, because I said what Kareem did was no big deal when it was a news story originally.
N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
2. He fucking pushed a girl over
He did WAY more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
3. who kept trying to instigate him into a fight.
Maybe, maybe not, we don't know where this was instigated. Neither side walked away, both escalated multiple times. He kept going well after the matter was settled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
4. The guy could've fucking murdered her in 1 second in any number of ways if he wanted to.
Silly hyperbole. But he certainly did more than he had to, which is pretty much the entire point. You imply otherwise. That it could have been worse is a asinine defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
5. Yes, he could've walked away from the situation, but the actual assault against her was the most minor thing he could've done for her.
Again, it most certainly was not the most mild thing. Kicking a woman on the ground is indefensible in all regards. Omitting it and then making this statement would make Fox News blush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
6. The reason he was cut from KC wasn't even that he did this thing, because it wasn't that big a deal. It was because he lied about the details of several incidents, breaking the trust the FO had in him.
We have no idea why he was cut. We know what was reported. The timing indicates that this had a outsized role compared to any other team issues, especially for a RB on a rookie deal. KC never shared any of the supposed preceding incidents publicly. If he lied about THIS issue, it was to hide the severity of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
7. What Kareem Hunt did was about 1/5000th as bad as what Ray Rice did, but you're going to act like this is a crime against humanity?
Whataboutism....so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
8. This is just agenda-driven outrage and possibly virtue signalling.
Sure.
  #30  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:51 PM
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He did WAY more than that.
Before I address the rest of this, could you say what you think he did?

A headline about this video said that Kareem Hunt "brutalized" this woman with that kick. Would you agree with that assessment?

If not, how would you describe it?

Speaking of lies of omission, I feel like everyone is dancing around what he actually did (a half-hearted, restricted kick that was actually more like a mild shove) and implying that it's way worse than it was. We're pretending that it was horrific. It's very silly.

Edit: Also, am I still omitting things in post #6? If not, then do you think that I changed my story between post #2 and #6, or just that descriptive details were lost when I wrote a few sentences vs a full breakdown?

Last edited by SenorBeef; 02-15-2019 at 03:54 PM.
  #31  
Old 02-15-2019, 11:04 PM
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Sorry. I'm having insomnia problems and I'd only slept 6 hours in the previous 50-60 hours. I think what I've been saying is right and accurate, but I was getting too obsessive and aggressive with challenging everyone about it.

So I've said my piece, no real need for me to keep saying it. I feel like this is one of those things where everyone is just going to be collectively nuts and keep hinting at how horrific what he did was and we're going to treat barely making contact with a physically aggressive instigator as basically him curbstomping some poor innocent woman like in American History X.

This "why are we going to treat him as though he did something far, far worse than he actually did?" thought about it seems like some sort of collective delusion to me, and so when I wondered why, my best guesses were some sort agenda is being pushed or it's a form of virtue signalling, because it relates to violence against women and so it's super easy to score points for being against it regardless of the severity of the actions. I can't say that this is any particular person's motivation, but between acting as though a team hiring him is somehow unspeakable, and the original headlines around the video being "Kareem Hunt Brutalizes Woman" I feel like there's a collective agreement that I'm not part of where we're all pretending it was way, way worse than it was.

So be it. I guess I'm not going to see it similarly to the people who view it as extreme and severe, and I'm not going to convince anyone otherwise. My apologies for being so aggressive about it towards the end.
  #32  
Old 02-16-2019, 03:47 PM
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Well, I just don't want my team to face those RB's twice a season with Mayfield at the helm. That is my chief concern.

If what Hunt did was so criminally reprehensible, then why is he still a free man?
  #33  
Old 02-16-2019, 05:02 PM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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If what Hunt did was so criminally reprehensible, then why is he still a free man?
With logic like that, we can just absolve Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, and Ray Lewis of any moral failures as well, yes?

Last edited by Chisquirrel; 02-16-2019 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Removed a nut (and then a few more)
  #34  
Old 02-16-2019, 11:44 PM
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With logic like that, we can just absolve Ray Rice, Adrian Peterson, and Ray Lewis of any moral failures as well, yes?
Was OJ guilty?
  #35  
Old 02-17-2019, 04:04 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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Was OJ guilty?
Which time?
  #36  
Old 02-17-2019, 06:59 AM
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Which time?
Touche. Although in the case of Ray Lewis, I'd say he's been completely rehabilitated. You can't complete the guilt/innocence cycle without first becoming a reverend, or a man of God of some sort.
  #37  
Old Yesterday, 04:09 PM
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Who was it that knocked her down? That looked like someone else. Also, it wasn't clear if he fell into her or flat out tackled her.
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  #38  
Old Yesterday, 04:25 PM
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It was very clear. Someone was dragging out the woman who had made it into the room again. In the process, she broke free from the guy dragging her out and accidentally knocked into the guy who was keeping a second woman from entering the room (this is the guy you're talking about) - they collided back to back, knocking the second guy down on top of the second woman. He had no intention of tackling her, he was accidentally knocked over.
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