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  #51  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:52 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is online now
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How about JD Martinez becoming the first player ever awarded a Silver Slugger for 2 positions in one year? OF and DH. You could argue (and I would) that 57 games in the OF should not make one eligible for the award at that position. In fact, I have no idea what the criteria is for the Silver Slugger award by position.
  #52  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:55 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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I don't think it has criteria beyond who votes for you. Obviously, it was a stupid choice, like the time Rafael Palmiero won a Gold Glove at first base even though he was a DH most of the year. Martinez is a great hitter but he was not more valuable in 57 games as other guys were in 150.

Other players got votes at multiple positions, too, actually.
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  #53  
Old 11-10-2018, 08:40 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
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You know who could vanish instantaneously without harming the game at all? Every single sabermetrician.
The ones, the many ones, who get lost in the weeds, who lose sight of the fact that the point of the game (any game) is about winning, that it's played by real humans, and who absolutely refuse to do any sort of reality check on their conclusions (despite the many statistical tools available to do so) as they get lost in space, yes, absolutely.

Hey, RickJay, if the players ran the game, they'd have to re-establish all that other stuff that you and James are claiming is part of the game, including the beer vendors. But that's all part of the business. The game is the players. And the business doesn't even exist without the game, does it? I really don't think you believe that "in three years it would make no difference whatsoever", either. You aren't required to defend lunatic ravings just because the raver is on "your side".
  #54  
Old 11-10-2018, 11:42 PM
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The ones, the many ones, who get lost in the weeds, who lose sight of the fact that the point of the game (any game) is about winning, that it's played by real humans, and who absolutely refuse to do any sort of reality check on their conclusions (despite the many statistical tools available to do so) as they get lost in space, yes, absolutely.
Who are these that are "lost in the weeds"? Who has lost sight of the point of the game?
  #55  
Old 11-11-2018, 05:56 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
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Anybody who praises Billy Beane, for starters.
  #56  
Old 11-11-2018, 01:35 PM
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Hey, RickJay, if the players ran the game, they'd have to re-establish all that other stuff that you and James are claiming is part of the game, including the beer vendors. But that's all part of the business. The game is the players.
The game is also the fans, the rules,m the umps... drawing a distinction between "game" and "business" doesn't really mean anything when specifically discussion MLB, which is, by definition, a business.

If you want to just talk about the game itself, what difference does it make if there is a Major League BNaseball at all? If MLB vanished there would still be a game. Kids would still play it, I'd still play it, millions would still play it.

Quote:
And the business doesn't even exist without the game, does it? I really don't think you believe that "in three years it would make no difference whatsoever", either. You aren't required to defend lunatic ravings just because the raver is on "your side".
1. I do not believe three years would be enough to repair it, no. Most casual fans wouldn't notice a difference in talent in three years, but reasonably knowledgable observers would still see a difference, and there would be a measurable difference in the talent level for at least six to eight years. It's hard to say how long it would take business to recover, since pro sports are kind of on the decline in general.

2. I'm not on anyone's side. You appear to be, but I just like baseball and prefer to deal with facts.
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  #57  
Old 11-11-2018, 11:47 PM
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Anybody who praises Billy Beane, for starters.
A GM that makes the playoffs pretty....by winning. Despite having no payroll? Praising that Billy Beane makes one "lost in the weeds"? Seriously?

I'm really looking more for those "who absolutely refuse to do any sort of reality check on their conclusions (despite the many statistical tools available to do so)". Who are these people. Got any names? Links?
  #58  
Old 11-12-2018, 09:18 AM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is online now
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The Yankees have supposedly talked to Cleveland about a trade for Kluber. Man, I hope that doesn't happen. Kluber has been very good against the Red Sox in his career. Well, he's very good against everyone, so I'd just rather not see him in pinstripes. Not sure the Yankees have the pieces to get him, no idea what their system looks like these days. I know they've got a lot of outfielders, though.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:23 PM
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I wouldn't mind seeing New York get Corey Kluber in a trade.

The New York Mets, that is.
  #60  
Old 11-12-2018, 04:32 PM
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I was thinking about the Harper thing and decided to have some fun with numbers.

I ran a report for the 25 highest salaries among position players (no pitchers) for each of the last three seasons, and added up their Wins Above Replacement. Here's a few fun trivia questions:

1. What do you think the AVERAGE WAR is of a hitter whose salary was among the 25 highest paid hitters? Average per year. (It's pretty close in all three of those seasons.)

2. Of the top 25 highest paid hitters in any given season the last three years, how many per year put up something you'd call MVP numbers - let's say, at least 5 WAR?

Curious?

SPOILER:

The average per season WAR of a top 25 salaried hitter is just 1.8 over the last three years. That's not a typo. In other words, the average top 25 salaried hitter is a much worse player than Kevin Pillar.

Over the last three years only seven players, total, have had over 5 WAR who were among the top 25 paid hitters - two in 2016 and 2017, and three in 2018.

Oh, and in 2015 they were worse; average 1.6, just one guy over 5.



Those facts amazed me.
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  #61  
Old 11-12-2018, 05:21 PM
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Well, seeing as how I know guys like Miggy Cabrera, Pujols, Yoenis Cespedes, Matt Kemp, Chris Davis, Jason Heyward and a host of other low WAR guys are in that group of top 25 salaries, I guessed they would drag the avg. down around 2.7 - 3.0. Nice to see I was way high.

Now that I go back and look, quite a few guys were lower WAR in 2018 than I thought. Votto, Edwin Encarnacion, Buster Posey...all under 4.
Charlie Blackmon's 2018 WAR was 0.8. How can this be? A guy that hits .291 with 29 HRs? Well, his dWAR was -2.7. Damn. Guess he was born to DH.
  #62  
Old 11-13-2018, 09:01 AM
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I am a little skeptical of that -2.7 figure for his defense. -2.7 is catastrophically bad; it's possible, I guess, especially in Coors Field which has a lot of room and a guy who was acceptable in another park would be bad there, but it's out of whack with his previous numbers and not really in line with a quick view of the overall defensive numbers. He's not Willie Mays out there but I am unconvinced he's Stevie Wonder.

Having said that, Blackmon (who didn't qualify for my report in any season) will start making huge bucks next year, and is owed over $20 million each of the next four seasons. The odds that will work out for Colorado are, as near as I can tell, zero. There is basically no chance at all that contract will NOT be a disaster. Blackmon will be 33 this year and

1. The number of big contracts that worked out for guys that old can be counted on your fingers, and
2. The few that did work out are players who are nothing at all like Charlie Blackmon.
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  #63  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:50 PM
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Shohei Ohtani won the AL rookie of the year award, which apparently angered Yankees fans almost as much as JD Martinez winning a silver slugger award for OF.

Ronald Acuna Jr. is the NL ROY.
  #64  
Old 11-13-2018, 10:10 PM
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Shohei Ohtani won the AL rookie of the year award, which apparently angered Yankees fans almost as much as JD Martinez winning a silver slugger award for OF.

Ronald Acuna Jr. is the NL ROY.
It is bullshit, don't really care about the silver slugger. But Ohtani was not the AL ROY. Andújar contributed more and put up better numbers.
  #65  
Old 11-13-2018, 10:13 PM
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I think it's wrong that Martinez wrong Silver Slugger at OF. But as it angers the Yankee fans, I'm fine with it.
  #66  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:10 PM
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It is bullshit, don't really care about the silver slugger. But Ohtani was not the AL ROY. Andújar contributed more and put up better numbers.
How many wins did Andujar get? How many did he strike out?
  #67  
Old 11-14-2018, 07:35 AM
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Andujar had slightly better offensive numbers, that's true. But Ohtani was a starting pitcher for 10 games and did very well. If you add up Ohtani's total WAR, it's a little higher than Andujar's. And I don't know what it's worth to voters, but Ohtani generated more excitement and probably brought more fans to MLB than any other rookie.
  #68  
Old 11-14-2018, 08:59 AM
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It is bullshit, don't really care about the silver slugger. But Ohtani was not the AL ROY. Andújar contributed more and put up better numbers.
No, he did not.

Every overall metric says Ohtani was a more valuable player; all measured of WAr put him ahead by a significant amount. But maybe you don't like WAR, so let's use some more conventional facts.

Andujar had 606 plate appearances. Ohtani had 367 plate appearances - plus he faced 211 batters as a pitcher, a total of 578 plate appearances. So in fact, despite what people have said, there really wasn't a significant difference between them in playing time. It's basically five percent.

In those plate appearances, Ohtani was absolutely a better player. He had a higher on base percentage, and a higher slugging percentage, despite playing in a worse hitter's park. At bat for at bat he was unquestionably a better hitter; there is no rational argument to the contrary even if you hate "analytics." (There is no significant difference in baserunning.)

And as a pitcher, he was as good as he was a hitter. At bat for at bat his pitching took away as many runs from the opposition as his hitting contributed to his team.

So they played about the same in terms of actual plate appearances, and Ohtani was significantly better, much more so than the five percent difference in plate appearances. So... I mean, how is this decision "bullshit"? Really, that's bullshit?

Of course, Andujar has a significant advantage in playing time I have not mentioned; he was in the field for the whole season, which Ohtani was not, as Ohtani was either a DH or a pitcher and pitcher fielding doesn't amount to anything. The thing is, Andujar is a very bad fielder. He was probably the worst third baseman in the major leagues, actually. (Indeed, according to WAR, Andujar wasn't even the best rookie on his own team; Gleyber Torres was, because Torres is a good fielder.) It would be really, really generous to say he contributed nothing in that regard; in truth, he detracted. Again, you don't have to reply on WAR; by traditional stats he was bad, and just watching him everyone agrees he was bad. It's not a controversial position to say he's a pretty bad glove. It's something of an accomplishment for a third baseman to play all year and only turn six double plays.

I mean, this was not bullshit. It was an objectively good choice. The only rookie in the AL who might have been better was Joey Wendle and I would have voted for Ohtani, because, frankly, I'd discount the numbers of a 28-year-old journeyman who just peaked in his rookie season a little.
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Last edited by RickJay; 11-14-2018 at 09:05 AM.
  #69  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:45 AM
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I'm cool with Ohtani winning the ROY. He really surged as a hitter in the last month.

It might be good for Andujar in the long run. He needs to improve quickly if he has any hope of staying at third. If he had been league average defensively this season, his WAR would have been well over 4 and he would have won the award.
Robinson Cano was pretty bad when he first came up too. The Yankees found the right mentor in Larry Bowa and Cano flourished defensively. I hope Andujar can follow a similar path. I really enjoyed watching him this season; he was the most consistent hitter on the team.

As for the Silver Slugger, does anyone care about the Silver Slugger? Can anyone name last years winners? If you grew up watching the Olympics, you might also be wondering who won the Gold Slugger.
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Old 11-14-2018, 12:39 PM
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I've never heard anyone argue over Silver Slugger awards. The only reason anyone noticed this year is because of the Martinez thing.
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  #71  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:59 PM
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Bob Melvin is the AL manager of the year. I would say deservedly so. He got the A's to a Wild Card spot. The other 2 finalists were Alex Cora and Kevin Cash. Cora finished 2nd and as great a season as the Red Sox had, Cash was probably more deserving. That Rays team started out ugly, got worse at the trade deadline, and managed to finish pretty strong with 90 wins in the toughest division in baseball.
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Old 11-14-2018, 03:57 PM
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I'm not exactly sure how they determine Manager of the Year, but if it's "manager of the team that won a lot of games with a small budget," does that mean it's impossible for a Boston or New York manager to win it?

I mean, I don't know that it is reasonably possible to ask a guy to win more than 108 games, is it?
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  #73  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:45 PM
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I'm not exactly sure how they determine Manager of the Year, but if it's "manager of the team that won a lot of games with a small budget," does that mean it's impossible for a Boston or New York manager to win it?

I mean, I don't know that it is reasonably possible to ask a guy to win more than 108 games, is it?
WAR for managers would be an interesting stat, if there's a way to calculate it.

Last edited by jaycat; 11-14-2018 at 05:45 PM.
  #74  
Old 11-14-2018, 07:33 PM
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As a Yankees fan, I REALLY hope the Yankees do NOT go after Machado.
  #75  
Old 11-15-2018, 09:43 AM
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I'm not exactly sure how they determine Manager of the Year, but if it's "manager of the team that won a lot of games with a small budget," does that mean it's impossible for a Boston or New York manager to win it?

I mean, I don't know that it is reasonably possible to ask a guy to win more than 108 games, is it?
I think winning with a small budget is a factor. But I think a bigger part is doing well with a team that sucked the previous year. The A's had 3 losing seasons in a row until this year. Granted, those losing seasons were also under Melvin's leadership. The Red Sox finished in 1st place for the 3rd year in a row.
  #76  
Old 11-15-2018, 09:56 AM
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As a Yankees fan, I REALLY hope the Yankees do NOT go after Machado.
Michael Kay says the Yankees are seriously interested.

A lot is being made about Machado's comments regarding his lack of interest in "hustling" on the field. And I get it, we all want to see these guys give max effort. How many players throughout history have had a reputation as not-a-hustle guy and been mostly forgiven for it? I think Manny Ramirez was in Boston. It was Manny being Manny and fans were, by and large, Ok with it because he was still one of the best hitters in the game. Machado, however, also has a rep for being a dirty player, so I can understand why fans don't want him. He's a great hitter, but I don't want to have to root for him.
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:08 PM
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The hell of it is that Machado would, if signed to a huge contract, be one of the few good bets for a long term contract. Most of them don't work out, but he's only 26 next year and a genuinely top notch player.
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  #78  
Old 11-15-2018, 01:24 PM
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Machado is the same age as Bryce Harper, at least as good a hitter (arguably better), better defender at a more important position, but will probably get less money.

By the way, I'm starting to get really curious how bbref calculates dWAR. Harper's was -3.2 in 2018. Really? He's so bad in RF that he cost Washington 3 wins?
  #79  
Old 11-15-2018, 02:34 PM
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Machado is the same age as Bryce Harper, at least as good a hitter (arguably better), better defender at a more important position, but will probably get less money.

By the way, I'm starting to get really curious how bbref calculates dWAR. Harper's was -3.2 in 2018. Really? He's so bad in RF that he cost Washington 3 wins?
I wondered about that too. It really drags down his overall WAR numbers. He played 62 games in centerfield this season, so maybe he was spectacularly bad there?
  #80  
Old 11-15-2018, 03:13 PM
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The hell of it is that Machado would, if signed to a huge contract, be one of the few good bets for a long term contract. Most of them don't work out, but he's only 26 next year and a genuinely top notch player.
Wouldn't the 2 knee surgeries worry you? Each knee at that.
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:32 PM
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He seemed healthy enough this year. I'm not saying it's a good idea, it's just a better idea than most big deals.

Big money contracts are so often terrible that, honestly, it would be best to literally never sign one, ever, with anyone.
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  #82  
Old 11-16-2018, 10:01 AM
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Mookie Betts and Christian Yelich are MVPs. Betts is the 2nd player ever to win MVP, gold glove, silver slugger and World Series in a season. The only other was Mike Schmidt in 1980.

And let's not forget that Derek Jeter traded Yelich for zero MLB ready players. But hey, he's got a cool new logo for the Marlins. That's gotta be worth a few wins.
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Old 11-16-2018, 10:31 AM
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I was fascinated to hear Schmidt and Betts were the only players to do that. I'd have just assumed some other MVP had done that too. Schmidt also won World Series MVP, so Betts has a bone to pick with Steve Pearce, I guess.

Christian Yelich is only the third player to win an MVP award after being traded in the previous offseason, the other two being Willie Hernandez and Josh Donaldson. So the Marlins had an MVP in 2017 and traded him, and also traded a guy who was MVP in 2018. What a joke they are. Yelich doesn't even make that much money and he's only 25; he is the kind of player they should have been keeping. but hey, the Marlins got:

Lewis Brinson. Brinson is only a year younger than Yelich. He made the Marlins last year and batted a sizzling .199. His main skill is striking out, but don't worry, he also doesn't run the bases very well.

Isan Diaz. Diaz might actually turn out okay, but he's not a grade A prospect. He has some power and plate discipline but is years away.

Monte Harrison. Harrison has power but last year struck out 215 times in Double A, which might be a record.

Jordan Yamamoto. Yamamoto actually pitched really well last year but only appeared in 13 games, so I assume he was hurt, which is what happens to young pitchers.

Quite a return.
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  #84  
Old 11-16-2018, 10:57 AM
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If I were a Marlins fan I'd be sending nasty emails to Jeter. This new logo comes on the heals of removing the gaudy outfield sculpture thing, which one could argue was a good movie, but none of this addresses actually improving the baseball team. Jeter seems more interested in aesthetics than baseball players.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:00 PM
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As a Yankees fan, I REALLY hope the Yankees do NOT go after Machado.
It makes too much sense for them not to. He's a top talent, Gregorius has health and free agency issues, the Machado behavioral stuff will be forgiven if he continues to perform well and I can't see Yankees fans being content if they don't get either of the Top Two and have to settle for solid but unexciting upgrades.
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Old 11-16-2018, 02:06 PM
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It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to keep Didi, though. While he's a bit older than Machado and not the hitter Machado is, he is a way, way better shortstop, and will be cheaper.

Also, "Didi Gregorius" is just one of the best baseball names of modern times. He is the Van Lingle Mungo of the 21st century.
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  #87  
Old 11-16-2018, 02:09 PM
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It makes too much sense for them not to. He's a top talent, Gregorius has health and free agency issues, the Machado behavioral stuff will be forgiven if he continues to perform well and I can't see Yankees fans being content if they don't get either of the Top Two and have to settle for solid but unexciting upgrades.
It really doesn't, he is young and talented but a terrible shortstop with a pair of knee surgeries who will cost a fortune and a long term deal. Let some other team make this mistake. I would prefer to extend Didi. ETA: He also doesn't hit particularly well at Yankee Stadium, he is fine here, but nothing special. That is with 180 AB. Even less at Boston.
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It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to keep Didi, though. While he's a bit older than Machado and not the hitter Machado is, he is a way, way better shortstop, and will be cheaper.

Also, "Didi Gregorius" is just one of the best baseball names of modern times. He is the Van Lingle Mungo of the 21st century.
Sir Didi is pretty good, young enough and they are talking about extending him. For a change I agree with all your reasoning.

Last edited by What Exit?; 11-16-2018 at 02:13 PM.
  #88  
Old 11-18-2018, 12:06 PM
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Also, "Didi Gregorius" is just one of the best baseball names of modern times. He is the Van Lingle Mungo of the 21st century.
It's no "Cy Sneed," but Sneed might not make the majors, so.

Hey, how good is Aledmys Diaz? Looks like he just wasn't in Toronto's plans or something, because they didn't really get much in return for him. I guess you don't need a 28-year-old utility guy if you're rebuilding, but I dunno if you need a 25-year-old AAA pitcher that much, either. Clearing room for Vlad Jr.?

For the Astros it's a pretty clear sign they're not bringing Marwin Gonzalez back, which is a bit sad from a fan's perspective, but Gonzalez is precisely the kind of guy who you try to replace rather than hold onto for dear life if you're a winning organization.
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:45 PM
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Diaz is a pretty good player. Presumably Vlad Jr. plays third base, if he plays the field much at all; the future at short is Bo Bichette, but I don't think he's ready in 2019. Right now Lourdes Gurriel is the shortstop, I suppose, but he isn't very good at it and I am a little skeptical of his bat.

The Jays got a decent young pitcher back in the deal, but, honestly, I think they may struggle at shortstop for a year or two.
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  #90  
Old 11-18-2018, 09:20 PM
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"Along with the removal of the home run sculpture and the addition of new standing room only sections, the (Miami Marlins) plan to change the colors of the walls and add more diversity in the concession stands..."

Okay, what am I missing here? (bold italics mine.)

Last edited by jaycat; 11-18-2018 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:32 PM
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"Along with the removal of the home run sculpture and the addition of new standing room only sections, the (Miami Marlins) plan to change the colors of the walls and add more diversity in the concession stands..."

Okay, what am I missing here? (bold italics mine.)


Those massive Marlins crowds dictate that some areas be sold as standing room only! Lol, as if the Marlins drew over 5000 fans for a game last year
  #92  
Old 11-18-2018, 09:51 PM
Superdude Superdude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
"Along with the removal of the home run sculpture and the addition of new standing room only sections, the (Miami Marlins) plan to change the colors of the walls and add more diversity in the concession stands..."

Okay, what am I missing here? (bold italics mine.)
They're adding more exits?
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  #93  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:45 AM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycat View Post
"Along with the removal of the home run sculpture and the addition of new standing room only sections, the (Miami Marlins) plan to change the colors of the walls and add more diversity in the concession stands..."

Okay, what am I missing here? (bold italics mine.)
Jeter and company don't want the statue, but also don't want to pay for anything to go in its place, like seats (which they don't need anyway). Probably they'll try to sell advertising in that space.
  #94  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:49 PM
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Asimovian Asimovian is offline
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I assume it'll be like the SRO section added in Cleveland a few years ago. So, not just random overflow for sold out games (as I experienced in Boston recently—what a crock), but some allegedly hip space for people who otherwise might not buy a ticket to get in for cheap and stand around drinking with other folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland.com article
The New York Yankees made news in 2009 when their stadium opened and front-row seats topped $2,000. Ironically, it's been one of the cheapest tickets in the park in Cleveland that has been a huge draw: The District Ticket. The $13 standing-room only ducat includes a drink and is being offered for the third consecutive year, giving fans a vantage from the Corner Bar in right field.

"Standing-room only" used to signify last-resort ticket options for a big game or concert. Not so in Progressive Field.

"The Corner Bar (allows fans) to get together with groups and enjoy friends and not be restricted to certain seats," Salcer said. "It's what millennials want, it's been a huge hit."
And yes, I do realize the irony of using the Indians as an example of how to help the Marlins draw more fans.

Last edited by Asimovian; 11-19-2018 at 12:50 PM.
  #95  
Old 11-19-2018, 03:12 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
They're adding more exits?
With another exit, Steve AND Jim can beat the traffic.
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  #96  
Old 11-19-2018, 08:35 PM
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So Yanks gave up Justus Sheffield & 2 other prospects for 2 years of James Paxton. His max innings are 160, but he does pitch well vs. Boston. Not really enough games though to get much of a feel for how he will do in the East. In 2 games at Yankee Stadium, not to good, a 7.20 ERA.


The other two prospects going to Seattle are outfielder Dom Thompson-Williams and right-handed pitcher Erik Swanson.
  #97  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:45 PM
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Indians release their new uniforms without Wahoo. I assume they buried it during Thanksgiving week to avoid the Wahoo die hard loyalists. But, of course, they can still sell some for Christmas.

https://www.10tv.com/article/clevela...ief-wahoo-logo

Last edited by dalej42; 11-19-2018 at 09:46 PM.
  #98  
Old 11-20-2018, 01:57 AM
OldGuy OldGuy is offline
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They've already said they're going to keep some Wahoo material around. Probably things you can't order on line. The reason hey need to keep it alive is if they abandon the image entirely, they'll lose the trademark and won't be able to stop others from using it.

They're going to use the guitar All-Star game logo as a patch on their sleeves this year. What they'll do in the future is not yet known.
  #99  
Old 11-20-2018, 07:35 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
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The reason hey need to keep it alive is if they abandon the image entirely, they'll lose the trademark and won't be able to stop others from using it.
That only matters if they still intend to keep making worthwhile money from it themselves. Well, fuck that, amirite?
  #100  
Old 11-20-2018, 08:58 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGuy
The reason hey need to keep it alive is if they abandon the image entirely, they'll lose the trademark and won't be able to stop others from using it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
That only matters if they still intend to keep making worthwhile money from it themselves. Well, fuck that, amirite?
Since they felt the controversy should be ended by torpedoing Wahoo, letting others use the image would be counterproductive, adding to the armada of Wahoo-imprinted gear that will be around for decades anyway.

I still think the Indians should have pissed everyone off by replacing Wahoo with a dignified native American logo, such as by commissioning a native artist to come up with the design. Or base it on Louis Sockalexis, their original native American pro baseball player.
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