View Poll Results: Who would you select on the 2019 Baseball HOF ballot? (Select no more than 10.)
Rick Ankiel 1 2.04%
Jason Bay 0 0%
Lance Berkman 1 2.04%
Barry Bonds 27 55.10%
Roger Clemens 30 61.22%
Freddy Garcia 0 0%
Jon Garland 0 0%
Travis Hafner 0 0%
Roy Halladay 34 69.39%
Todd Helton 6 12.24%
Andruw Jones 7 14.29%
Jeff Kent 3 6.12%
Ted Lilly 0 0%
Derek Lowe 0 0%
Edgar Martinez 31 63.27%
Fred McGriff 4 8.16%
Mike Mussina 26 53.06%
Darren Oliver 0 0%
Roy Oswalt 1 2.04%
Andy Pettitte 5 10.20%
Juan Pierre 0 0%
Placido Polanco 0 0%
Manny Ramirez 33 67.35%
Mariano Rivera 45 91.84%
Scott Rolen 8 16.33%
Curt Schilling 21 42.86%
Gary Sheffield 3 6.12%
Sammy Sosa 4 8.16%
Miguel Tejada 2 4.08%
Omar Vizquel 4 8.16%
Billy Wagner 1 2.04%
Larry Walker 16 32.65%
Vernon Wells 0 0%
Kevin Youkilis 2 4.08%
Michael Young 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-20-2018, 02:18 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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2019 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

It's out. Who should get in?


Rick Ankiel

A much ballyhooed young pitcher, brought up very young by the Cardinals, and he swiftly caught Steve Blass Disease, finding himself unable to throw a strike.
When it became apparent he wasn’t going to be able to pitch again, he decided to try to make it back to the majors as an outfielder, and to my admitted amazement, he did it, and had a pretty decent year in 2008, hitting 25 homers.

As inspirational as that is, I don’t understand why he’s on the ballot. He wasn’t a regular player long enough to really merit it. Ryan Dempster, who had a full career and was twice the player, isn’t on the ballot.

Jason Bay

Bay is Canadian, from British Columbia. He is, I am pretty sure, one of the ten best Canadians of all time; fairly clearly behind Fergie Jenkins, Larry Walker, Joey Votto, Jeff Heath, and Russell Martin and in and amongst a bunch of guys like Justin Morneau, John Hiller, Terry Puhl, and Matt Stairs. I suppose that ranking tells you he’s not a Hall of Famer, but he had a few good years.

Most of the best Canadian players of all time have played in the last thirty years; Fergie Jenkins, the only Canadian Hall of Famer so far, is an exception, but other than that probably three quarters of them are recent.

I’m not sure why that is, but my guess would be that it’s relatively recently that Little League and the semi-professionalism of youth baseball coaching came to Canada. When I started playing youth baseball in Kingston, Ontario is about 1980, we weren’t even affiliated with Little League. The appointed coach was basically whatever parent felt like doing it that year; there were no qualifications required, no programs to help the coach figure out what he was doing. In retrospect – and I mean no disrespect, it’s just fact – the coaching was enthusiastically bad, consisting largely on telling us to play catch and saying “keep your eye on the ball.” Some coaches told us to catch fly balls with two hands, which has not been the preferred method of doing that since before I was born. Team equipment consisted of four old bats and catcher’s gear. The fields were vacant lots.

That started to change around 1985 or so; it was then, as memory serves, that Little League finally spread to our part of Canada. Today, I have two ball diamonds more or less across the street from my house, used by kids. Their equipment alone looks like a Division 1A college squad. Coaches are licensed and trained. There’s no way that doesn’t result in better ballplayers.

Lance Berkman

Berkman was, really, one hell of a hitter, but he’s just not quite there. He played 1879 games, and if he’d lasted for more like 2400 games he’d be a Hall of Famer. But he didn’t, and he didn’t have the kind of peak to mitigate a shorter career. He sort of of falls into a pile of guys like Shawn Green or Fred Lynn, guys who were stars and had 66% of a Hall of Fame career, but it’s the last third that’s the hardest to get.

Barry Bonds

Seventh year on the ballot; he only gets three more, and if he doesn’t make it he’s temporarily ineligible until the Hall of Fame creates a new “committee” to revisit players of this era and puts him in. Obviously, it’s an ongoing joke that he isn’t. I can understand is steroid use is your coin flip on guys like Rafael Palmiero, but there’s no coin flip here.

Roger Clemens

The Barry Bonds of pitchers, obviously.

Roger Clemens won seven Cy Young Awards. In those seven years, Clemens amassed (Baseball Reference figures) 57.3 WAR. In all his other seasons combined, he had about 81 WAR. Either of those by itself would be a deserving Hall of Famer. There are a dozen pitchers, at least, in the Hall of Fame who don’t have 57 WAR.

Octavio Dotel

The only player in major league history named either “Octavio” or “Dotel.” He didn’t make the ballot but I wanted to mention that.

Freddy Garcia

Freddy won 17 games in his rookie season and finished second in Rookie of the Year voting; two years later, just 24 years old, he won the ERA title and 18 games. He then pitched until he was 36 and never again had a season as good as either of those.

Jon Garland

Garland was (well, presumably still is) a huge man, 6’6”, but he was one of the softest tossers in the major leagues who wasn’t a knuckleballer; I’m pretty sure he could never throw 90. He only struck out 4.8 men per nine innings, an extremely low number, and it’s kind of amazing he lasted as long as he did. He’s not a Hall of Famer, but my hat’s off to anyone who can win 136 games pretty much entirely through guile and trickery.

Travis Hafner

Hafner was a pretty scary hitter for about four years, but he was made of glass.

There are four kinds of injury-prone players:
1. Fat guys, like Prince Fielder
2. Guys with a particular physical ailment they can’t beat (most pitchers are like this)
3. Guys who are just clumsy
4. Guys who just seem snakebit, like Paul Molitor in the first half of his career

Hafner was type 3. He could hit, but had the grace and smooth elegance of a building collapse, and found a way to hurt more or less every part of himself.

Roy Halladay

A no brainer. Halladay’s turnaround in 2001 is without any other modern equivalent, that I can tell. In 2000 he was the worst pitcher in the major leagues, and for the number of innings he pitched maybe the worst ever. Toronto sent him to single A ball, he changed his delivery, and when he returned on June 2 he got the crap kicked out of him… and then starting with his next start he was one of the best pitchers in the world for ten years.

Todd Helton

Todd Helton put up some truly astounding numbers; for six or seven years he was just killing it. There are two problems with his candidacy;

- His career is relatively short for a Hall of Famer, and
- His numbers are way inflated by context.

Context means not only that he played in a time of big hitting numbers but, of course, he played in Coors Field, which bloats a guy’s statistics.

That said, Helton would not be a terrible choice – he isn’t the right choice, because there are better players ahead of him who aren’t yet in, but even if you adjust for context he really was an outstanding hitter, and he was a fine defensive player. His teammate, Larry Walker, is a very similar case.

Andruw Jones

Jones came up at the age of 19, in 1996, and hit two home runs in a World Series game. From that point to age 29 he was on track to be not a Hall of Famer, but an inner circle Hall of Famer. He was a spectacular defensive center fielder, one of the best of my lifetime, and hit a lot of home runs.

Then at age 30 he was done. He was bad, Atlanta got rid of him, and he bounced around for a few years being bad before finally giving up. I don’t know why, to be honest.

Jones was so good in his run that he is still an outer ring candidate for the Hall of Fame; I’d rank him as equal to Todd Helton, I guess. Jones won’t ever get in, and I’m fine with that. He is the best player ever born in Curacao, so that’s something.

Jeff Kent

Kent was a Blue Jay rookie in 1992 and played really well backing up Kelly Gruber. Late in the year the Jays traded him to the Mets for a couple of months of David Cone. Kent ended up having a hell of a career but as Cone helped them win the World Series that year it wasn’t a bad trade.

Prior to his arriving in Toronto I’d never heard of him; he was not a highly regarded prospect. Although he was a second baseman, he was weirdly stiff and not very agile looking as an infielder – statistically he did a decent job out there, he just didn’t look like it. Kent was drafted in the twentieth round, the point in the draft when teams are just grabbing whomever they can to ensure their low minor league teams have enough players.. I don’t even think twentieth round picks get signing bonuses. Kent became an MVP, though, and played drafted lower than that have become Hall of Famers.

The baseball draft is a crapshoot. In hockey and basketball, there are guys drafted in the first round who become All Star literally right away. Basketball doesn’t even have a third round of the draft; if you aren’t picked by then everyone knows you’re not an NBA player. In baseball, any number of first round picks never make the majors, and guys picked as an afterthought become stars.

Kent is in that bunch of players with Todd Helton who wouldn’t be the worst pick ever but I wouldn’t vote for them.

Ted Lilly

Had some good years but isn’t even half a Hall of Famer. He was on the All Star team in 2004 for the Blue Jays not because he deserved it but because no one else on the team was any good, and the rules says every team gets at least one All Star.

Derek Lowe

Lowe was a relief pitcher for Boston for a number of years, and he was a pretty good relief ace. In 2002, for reasons I don’t recall, they decided to make him a starting pitcher. He wasn’t a kid – he was 29, halfway though most players’ careers, and had been a relief pitcher for years. He was amazing, winning 21 games, and was a good starting pitcher for years more. He’s not a Hall of Famer, but that was pretty cool.

Edgar Martinez

Edgar was just barely short of election last year, so the odds are he’ll make it this year, which will make him the first player ever who was largely a designated hitter to be elected to the Hall of Fame. I guess he deserves it.

Fred McGriff

A tall, elegant first baseman who came up with the Blue Jays at a time they were awash in first basemen, and they traded him to the Padres in the famous trade that got them Roberto Alomar.

The Blue Jays in eight years produced an astounding number of first basemen. Around 1985-1986 they came up with Fred McGriff and Cecil Fielder, and they had to trade Cecil, and then later they replaced McGriff with John Olerud, who was terrific, and then in 1993 they came up with with Carlos Delgado, who leads the Blue Jays in fifty career statistics.

McGriff had a 30-homer season for five different teams; the Jays, Padres, Braves, Rays and Cubs. I am pretty sure that’s a record. He ended up just seven homers short of 500, a statistical marker that used to mean certain Hall of Fame election but no longer does. He’s a marginal candidate.

Mike Mussina

Mussina was just a sensational pitcher; he is long overdue to be in the Hall of Fame, but he’ll get in this year or next. He finally won 20 games in his last season and then he retired. Gotta love a guy going out on top.

Darren Oliver

Oliver pitched for nine teams over the course of twenty years. He was a starting pitcher and when he was no longer good enough to do that he became a left handed specialist relief pitcher and did that for like 500 games. At the end, at the age of 42, he was still pitching pretty well, but was apparently tired of being away from his family.

Roy Oswalt

Oswalt for his first ten years was just awesome. In his first six seasons he finished in the top five in Cy Young voting five times. He did everything well, but then his arm died and his shot at the Hall of Fame went with it; he needed another three solid years. Pitching is brutal on the arm.

Bill James once wrote that there are more pitchers who’d be in the Hall of Fame if they hadn’t gotten hurt than there actually are pitchers in the Hall of Fame. It’s true.

Andy Pettite

Andy Pettite is my personal odd choice for the Hall of Fame. His career ERA is 3.85, which is superficially not very impressive – good, but it’d be the second highest of any Hall of Fame pitcher, exceeded only by Jack Morris, and since he mostly pitched for the Yankees, people assume he won a lot of games just because he got a lot of offensive support.

I think he gets a bit of a bum rap. Pettite’s ERA was accumulated during an age of very high scoring. If you adjust it to league norms it’s as good as dozens of Hall of Famers. He had a reasonably long career by modern standards and won more playoff games than any other pitcher. Honestly I think he’s a clearly qualified choice but he probably won’t get in. He also admitted to using PEDs, which doesn’t help.

Juan Pierra

Juan wasn’t very strong but he could run like the wind, and that was basically his game; he only hit 18 career home runs in almost 2000 games, but he stole 614 bases and hit a lot of triples. He was a big part of Florida winning the World Series in 2003.

Placido Polanco

A contact hitter, and a pretty good one, with little power.

Polanco has the highest fielding percentage of any third baseman in baseball history, and that kind of undersells it. He is just completely off the charts better than anyone else, 9.1 points above second place (Mike Lowell.) There is more of a difference between Polanco and Lowell than there is between Lowell and thirtieth place.

Of course, Polanco played less than half his career at third. He played most of his career at second. Would you like to know who the all time leader at second base is for fielding percentage? Why, that’s right. Placido Polanco.

I wouldn’t suggest Placido should be in the Hall of Fame but he was probably the most sure handed fielder who ever lived. He won Gold Gloves at both second and third. If you count outfield as one position (which for years the Gold Glove Award did) the only other player I can think of to win a Gold Glove at two different positions is Darin Erstad.

Manny Ramirez

Manny was of course known as being a kind of daffy-headed flake, but he took his hitting very seriously indeed, and my God he was good at it. If you want to show a kid how to swing a bat, get videos of Manny Ramirez hitting. His swing was as technically excellent as anyone who ever lived.

He played outfield like he’d just learned it the day before; he was as terrible an outfielder as he was great a hitter, but the overall package was great and he should be in the Hall. Manny hit 29 home runs in the playoffs, the all time record.

Mariano Rivera

The greatest relief pitcher of all time and the best player of all time in the playoffs, at any position. If Mariano Rivera isn’t in the Hall of Fame, there’s no point in having one.

Scott Rolen

According to the Wins Above Replacement measure, Rolen is probably a Hall of Famer, and I can see that argument statistically; he was a very good hitter and a very good fielder at a hard position.

Nonetheless he only got 10% of the vote last year and he’ll probably never get in. Weirdly, I’m okay with that, and I can’t exactly tell you why. He just never seemed like a great player at any one time. He won the Rookie of the Year Award and a bunch of Gold Gloves but never led the league in any offensive category and only once made the top ten in MVP voting. There are better candidates.

Curt Schilling

Schilling was a hell of a pitcher in the regular season, and was one of the five greatest postseason players who ever lived. Statistically he is a no brainer.

Since retiring, Schilling has earned a reputation as one of the biggest dickheads in the history of ex-pro-athletes. He started a video game company that failed after taking a lot of government money from the State of Rhode Island, and has gone from being a loudmouthed conservative, which is okay, to being a raving, bigoted Trumpist, which is generally not a way to earn respectable friends. His Hall of Fame support last year was 51%, which makes him a dubious shot – he is only on the ballot three more years – but if he wasn’t a colossal dick he’d be in already.

Should the voters disregard his being an asshole and elect him? Logically, they should. Schilling was not enough of an asshole as a player to make his teams unsuccessful; he played for two World Champions. His being a shitstick since then is not especially relevant. I’m not shedding any tears for him though. It’s a privilege, not a right.

Gary Sheffield

Sheffield was a Hall of Fame hitter all the way, just a pure hitter. Unlike most power hitters today. Sheff, as he was unoriginally known, didn’t strike out much. He never struck out 100 times in a season, and in fact never came close. That is something you can say about literally no power hitters anymore, none I can think of. He just had a talent for putting the bat on the ball.

He moved around a lot. He started with Milwaukee but they sent him early on to San Diego and he hit great there. Then he went to Florida and he hit great there for years, and then he went to Los Angeles and hit great there. He then spent a couple of years in Atlanta and hit like crazy, then signed with the Yankees and he kept on hitting. He was with the Tigers for a few years and hit, then finished his career with two thirds of a season with the Mets, still hitting.

Sheffield is a long shot because
1. He is reputed to have used steroids,
2. His career doesn’t really have a clear peak or narrative because he moved around a lot – he played over 2500 games but didn’t even play a quarter of them with any one team, which is, I am sure, a unique accomplishment in baseball history, and
3. He had a reputation as a terrible fielder, a reputation supported by the numbers.
I don’t care about 1 or 2 and think 3 is a bit exaggerated, so I’d vote for him.

Sammy Sosa

Slammin’ Sammy was a humongous star there for a few years but now gets little Hall support because, again, steroids.

It’s also partially just that the home run totals were inflated in general. He was a great player at his peak but there are a lot of better players available to vote for.
When I was a kid, I knew the career home run leaders off by heart. The top five were Hank Aaron (755) Babe Ruth (714) Willie Mays (660) Frank Robinson (586) and Harmon Killebrew (573) and in my teens Reggie Jackson and Mike Schmidt moved into sixth and seventh. Seven more guys had 500. It was assumed 500 homers meant automatic Hall of Fame inclusion, and 600, well, only three guys had done that.

Since then, six more players – Bonds, A-Rod, Griffey, Pujols, Thome and Sosa – have passed 600, and now 27 players are above 500. If you’d told me back then a guy would hit 609 homers and not be a clear Hall of Famer I’d have thought that nuts, but here we are.

Miguel Tejada

Tejada was a hell of a player but has maybe a twenty percent shot at the Hall.

In 2002 Tejada won the MVP Award, though he should not have. Two years later he actually had his best season, but finished fifth in the MVP voting even though, honestly, he should have finished ahead of all four guys ahead of him in the vote. The MVP award is stupid.

Omar Vizquel

I wrote about Omar’s candidacy at length last year and don’t feel like doing it again. To make it short; he is usually compared to Ozzie Smith, and so he’ll get in eventually, but he was not nearly as good as Ozzie. That said, most players like him – excellent defensive shortstops with very long careers – are in the Hall of Fame, so what the hell.

Billy Wagner

Wagner was an absolutely terrifying relief ace who threw about a million miles an hour. In fifteen years he was dominant every year except one bad season he was hurt. He was an objectively incredible pitcher.

The problem with his Hall of Fame candidacy is that he only pitched 903 innings, a number which roughly approximates four seasons of a good starting pitcher. It’s just impossible for me to think a guy like that is worthy of the Hall of Fame. If he pitched literally twice as much, he’d be a marginal candidate. Joahan Santana actually DID pitch twice as much and got dropped off the ballot because it wasn’t considered a long enough career.

Wagner might, relative to his regular season performance, be the worst playoff performer of all time. He gave up 13 runs in just 11 innings, an incredible run of ineptitude.

Larry Walker

See Todd Helton. The second best Canadian player of all time. Walker will not get to 75% before he drops off the ballot in 2020. It’s a shame, as he really does deserve it.

Larry became a major league regular in 1990 and retired after the 2005 season. In those sixteen years, he missed a significant amount of time to injury (or the 1994 lockout) in every single one of them except one, that being 1997, when he won the MVP Award. In every other season he missed at least 19 games, and on three occasions he missed half the season. If he’d been just a little less injury prone he’d have another 250 games or so, at least, and might well have gotten in.

Vernon Wells

Wells became a star in Toronto and still holds some team records. After a huge year in 2003 he spent the rest of his time in Toronto alternating mediocre years with good ones and he never quite became the MVP candidate everyone was hoping.

After the 2008 season the Blue Jays gave him a gigantic contract, I believe still the biggest a Blue Jay has ever gotten. After a couple of years that deal wasn’t looking great so they wanted to trade him, and to the absolute amazement of everyone, the Angels agreed to take him and take on his entire contract. It saved the Blue Jays ninety million dollars. Immediately upon arriving in California, Wells just fell apart; he was a total disaster there for a few years, was traded to the Yankees, was terrible there for a year, and retired.

Kevin Youkilis

Youkilis is the subject of a chapter in “Moneyball” in which Billy Beane goes to enormous but ultimately unsuccessful attempts to fool the Red Sox into giving him to the A’s; they keep calling him “The Greek God of Walks.” He was right to try, as it turned out; Youkilis turned into exactly the kind of player they expected him to, a pretty solid righthanded hitter who did everything well except run.

Youkilis had a truly bizarre batting stance where he would hold his bat way above his head and slide the top hand up the barrel of the bat and, rather than holding it with the top hand, just kind of lay the bat on his thumb, and then he'd point the bat horizonally out towards the second baseman, like he was trying to hit the guy with a T-shirt cannon. He held his feet really close together and kind of turned his ass away from the pitcher. He looked like a man about to fight a cobra while walking a tightrope. It was really weird.

At the height of his powers, Youkilis was, or was close to being, a Hall of Fame level player. The height of his powers didn’t last very long, though.

Michael Young

Michael Young, superficially, has Hall of Fame numbers. There aren’t a lot of shortstops with six 200-hit seasons, career .300 averages.

That said, Young’s numbers are heavily inflated by context. He played in the highest offensive era since the Second World War, in a ballpark that was relatively friendly to hitters. He was a really good player but not a Hall of Famer.
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2018, 02:45 PM
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Barry Bonds? I'd vote for Rose (whom I despise) before I'd vote for "Chemical man".

Oh, and HENRY AARON is the all time homerun king as far as I'm concerned.

Last edited by Jasmine; 11-20-2018 at 02:46 PM.
  #3  
Old 11-20-2018, 02:56 PM
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Mo Rivera & Roy Halladay are absolutes.

I'm going to think about the other 3.
  #4  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:10 PM
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Thudlow Boink Thudlow Boink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
I wouldn’t suggest Placido should be in the Hall of Fame but he was probably the most sure handed fielder who ever lived.
Could you expand on this? Why doesn't "the most sure handed fielder who ever lived" deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

(How does his case compare to, say, Ozzie Smith, a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer whose renown is largely due to his defensive value?)
  #5  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:16 PM
Boozahol Squid, P.I. Boozahol Squid, P.I. is offline
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Martinez, Moose and Mo.

I don't want to, nor feel the need to honor Clemens or Bonds, despite the fact that they were two of the best players at their positions. Being a cheater is one thing, but do you have to be an asshole while you do it? I could be talked into Clemens, on the other hand, because his shiftiness didn't start until after his playing days, and his contributions to those two ridiculous World Series runs along with his numbers work.

Guys like Halladay, Sheffield, Pettite and Jones(roughly in that order,) I'd all be fine with being in the hall. I don't really see a case for the rest of these guys. Well, except for Omar. But I think we've worn the rubber pretty thin on that discussion.
  #6  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:56 PM
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Mariano Rivera: Yes, Yes, Yes, just no question yes. The greatest at his position and greatest postseason pitcher ever.

Roy Halladay is actually kind of borderline but I think his run if greatness and postseason work puts him in and his tragic death get my vote now. I think Halladay and I think Hall of Famer.

Mike Mussina should get in and would get my vote this year.

Edgar Martinez got my vote this year and gets it again this year.

I kind of hate giving him the vote but I guess I’ll give #5 to Curt Schilling is an asshole but has the numbers to support the HOF vote. His postseason work really adds to it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lance Berkman, Jeff Kent, Todd Helton & Fred McGriff are below the borderline. Hall of the Very Good, not Hall of Fame.

Larry Walker is very borderline and benefited greatly from 10 years in Colorado. I would leave him out.

Andy Pettite sorry Andy, I want to vote for you, but even with your postseason work, you fall short.

Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens No, probably never get my vote. Too much the assholes, too much the poster children for steroids.

Sammy Sosa and his Steroids is a no vote for me this year at least. And I liked Sammy.

Manny Ramirez has the number but also the steroid bust and lots of other odd issues.

Gary Sheffield is below the borderline and was always kind of a jerk.

Omar Vizquel eventually should make it.

Miguel Tejada is not a hall of famer, not really that close either.
  #7  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:28 PM
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Ankiel - Thought he was trying to make a comeback? I've said it before, never seen an athlete's career turn on a dime right in the middle of the field like his did. Amazing story. Not a HOFer.

Bay - Will always be remembered by me as the guy the Red Sox got for Manny Ramirez. Had a handful of solid years. Not a HOFer.

Berkman - I'd agree he's at best 2/3 of the way there. Not a HOFer.

Bonds - Yeah, 'roids. Ten years ago I never thought I'd say it but it's time to get over it. He's a no doubt HOFer.

Clemens - See above. HOFer.

Dotel - Didn't make the ballot? He was a nice bullpen arm for a lot of teams. Not a HOFer.

Garcia - Nice pitcher for a lot of years, only very good for a few. Not a HOFer.

Garland - Had one really good year and it happened to be the year the White Sox won the World Series. Not a HOFer.

Hafner - Garnered MVP votes in three consecutive seasons then fell off the face of the earth thanks to injuries. Forgot he spent his final season with the Yankees. Not a HOFer.

Halladay - Two Cy Young awards and eight All Star appearances. Doc was great for a long time. Shame he didn't live to see his induction. HOFer.

Helton - Finally, someone we have to think about. Never won an MVP and I never considered him the best in MLB at first base. Not a huge power guy, but hit a metric shit-ton of doubles. Like, WOW, look how many doubles he hit! 592. Averaged 35 doubles a year over his entire career. But I think Larry Walker and/or Fred McGriff are both as deserving if not more so and for that reason I'm out. Not a HOFer.

Jones - When I hear the name Andruw Jones I think "that dude was good for a brief period; not long enough to be a HOFer." But when I look at the numbers and add defense into consideration, one could argue that Jones has a stronger case than Helton. Helton was very good defensively too, by the way, but CF is more important than 1B. So it's pretty close, but that cliff he fell off post-Atlanta is just too harsh. Not a HOFer. Not yet. Ask me again next year.

Kent - Known to be one of the biggest assholes in the game. Played his best baseball from age 30 onward while teammates with Barry Bonds...hmmmm. But, he put up big numbers. He's very borderline, right there with Helton and Jones. For my vote, not a HOFer.

Lilly - Was a slightly above average pitcher. Not a HOFer.

Lowe - Cost Pedro the 2002 Cy Young award by cannibalizing votes. In 1999 I went to a Sox game in Detroit and sat right behind the visitor's bullpen. And I mean those bullpen guys were right in front of you at old Tiger Stadium. Lowe was talking to people in the stands throughout the whole game. Cool guy. He's in the Red Sox HOF, and that's as far as he'll get. Not a HOFer.

Edgar - Best DH ever until David Ortiz. I think he has a stronger case than Helton and company. For quite a string of years you could count on him to hit .320+ with around 30 homers. HOFer.

McGriff - The Crime Dog. I don't know how much it matters, but I'm not aware of any steroid allegations against McGriff. As I said above, I don't think Helton can get in before McGriff. I really want to vote for him, but he's not gonna make it. In nine years he has never garnered a quarter of the votes. It pains me to say it (more from nostalgia than anything else) but not a HOFer.


Mussina - Hated him because he dominated the Red Sox. Always thought he was a little overrated, though. He pretty much never led the league in anything. But he strung together soooo many good seasons, his career WAR is actually pretty good at 82.9. Compare that to Tom Glavine's 72, for example, who got a lot of love because he always won 20 games. Now we know wins don't mean that much for a pitcher. So yeah, I guess Moose is a HOFer.

Darren Oliver - Wow, made a living playing baseball for 20 years. Not a HOFer.

Oswalt - Dude was really good for almost a decade and believe it or not, it wasn't quite enough. Had a really brutal end to his career. That last year in Colorado, yikes. Not a HOFer.

Pettite - I'm going to counter RickJay's arguents for Pettite. His 2nd season sums up his career for me. It was his highest finish in Cy Young voting (2nd) because it was the '96 Yankees, he led the league with 21 wins and his ERA as 3.87. 3.87! He won a lot of playoff games because the Yankees were always in the playoffs. His playoff record is 19-11 and his postseason ERA is a very Andy Pettite-esque 3.81. So it's not like he dominated October. Not a HOFer.

Pierre - Led the league in caught stealing attempts more than twice as many times as he led the league in steals. Did lead the league in hits twice, though. Not a HOFer.

Polanco - Looking at the numbers, he is better than I remembered. And his defense kind of flew under the radar for me. Still, not a HOFer.

Manny Ramirez - Could mash like nobody. Red Sox fans didn't care if he didn't hustle. And I think his defensive ineptitude is a little overplayed. Don't get me wrong, he was not great or even very good. Although his effort lacked, he knew how to play the green monster. I think he led the league in outfield assists one year. HOFer.

Mariano Rivera - Blew the 2004 ALCS. Not a HOFer. Just kidding. He's a no doubter, of course. HOFer.

Rolen - One of the best defensive third basement of his time and a very good hitter, too. A better hitter than Brooks Robinson, but not quite the same glove. He's a tough call, but I think his case is better than Helton's, who has somehow become my measuring stick. HOFer.

Schilling - Look, I love what Schilling did for the Red Sox. His post career antics aside, I'm not sure the stats are definitely there. I mean, he has a stronger case than Pettitte for sure. Now that I look, yes the stats are there. Better than I remembered. HOFer.

Sheffield - I guess he'd wear a Marlins hat if he were inducted? Nobody whipped the bat around like Sheff. Nobody. Who didn't try to emulate that swing playing whiffle ball in the backyard? If exit velocity was a thing when Sheff played, he'd be off the charts. As much as I like him, I think his case is only slightly stronger than McGriff's. I'm gonna say not a HOFer.

Sosa - What this guy and McGwire (who was off the ballot last year, by the way) did for baseball in 1998 was important. He's not gonna get in. But looking at the numbers, he deserves it. HOFer.

Miguel Tejada - His MVP gift in 2002 was a joke. The thing is, he beat out ARod in a landslide. That would not happen today given how much weight people put on WAR. That said, he was an awesome player for a little while. But not a HOFer.

Omar Vizquel - Eleven total gold gloves is nothing to sneeze at. His offensive numbers were OK. I think I have one vote left if I stay within ten, and I'm gonna use it later. Not a HOFer.

Wagner - Don't even talk to me about Billy Wagner while Lee Smith is on the outside looking in. Not a HOFer.

Walker - I think he has a better case than Helton. Larry was really good in Montreal, too. I say put him in. HOFer.

Wells - I remember when the Jays overpaid him like a maniac. And I remember when the Angels traded for him and thought, what the hell are they doing? Then the Angles turned around and gave Pujols an insane contract. Anyway, Vernon had 3 or 4 years that were really good. Not a HOFer.

Youkilis - Unlike Sheffield, Youk's stance was not fun to emulate because it was damn uncomfortable. How can a guy hit like that? Youk had a couple awesome seasons in Boston. He famously did not get along well with Manny Ramirez because Youk was the anti-Manny, always hustling, always taking everything very seriously. Like Lowe, the Red Sox HOF is as far as he'll get. Not a HOFer.

Michael Young - Had a string of like eight really solid years. Better numbers than I remembered. Not a HOFer.

Whew, I'm glad I had some time to kill on bbref today. That was fun.
  #8  
Old 11-20-2018, 05:27 PM
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Barkis - if I counted right, you named eleven people as Hall of Famers. Just curious - since the ballot is ten, who would you leave off this year?

Personally for me, my ballot would be (in rough order):
Bonds, Clemens, Rivera, Manny, Mussina, Halladay, Walker, Edgar, Rolen, Kent.

Pettite is clearly behind the 10 I named in my eyes. Same with Andruw. Not sure if I'd include either if I had room.
Sheffield is probably behind those two.
Helton, Sosa and Berkman all fall clearly short for me.
And once again because of a full ballot I can not include Schilling, probably my least favorite player of all time. He's somewhere between 11th and 999th on my list.
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Old 11-20-2018, 07:48 PM
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Helton, Halladay, Rivera, Rolen, and Walker. I’m fine with adding five this year
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:08 PM
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It's out. Who should get in?

Lance Berkman

Berkman was, really, one hell of a hitter, but he’s just not quite there. He played 1879 games, and if he’d lasted for more like 2400 games he’d be a Hall of Famer. But he didn’t, and he didn’t have the kind of peak to mitigate a shorter career. He sort of of falls into a pile of guys like Shawn Green or Fred Lynn, guys who were stars and had 66% of a Hall of Fame career, but it’s the last third that’s the hardest to get.
Berkman was the best player ever to play for Rice University (by a wide margin; the second best is maybe Norm Charlton?); he batted in the .400s and hit about a home run a game in his best year. I was incredibly excited when he was drafted by the Astros, and he didn't disappoint. They tried him at centerfield for a couple years but that didn't go so great.
Quote:
Freddy Garcia

Freddy won 17 games in his rookie season and finished second in Rookie of the Year voting; two years later, just 24 years old, he won the ERA title and 18 games. He then pitched until he was 36 and never again had a season as good as either of those.
Garcia was part of the Randy Johnson deadline trade in 1998; Johnson pitched about as well as a human being can pitch for that third of a season, but the Astros didn't give him any run support in the playoffs, and then he was off to AZ as a free agent. Garcia looked like an absolute stud in the minors that year and was basically the key to the deal. The Astros bargained down to Garcia from their then-top pitching prospect, Scott Elarton, who I see actually lasted 10 years in the majors and had a career WAR of -0.4.
Quote:
Travis Hafner

Hafner was a pretty scary hitter for about four years, but he was made of glass.

There are four kinds of injury-prone players:
1. Fat guys, like Prince Fielder
2. Guys with a particular physical ailment they can’t beat (most pitchers are like this)
3. Guys who are just clumsy
4. Guys who just seem snakebit, like Paul Molitor in the first half of his career

Hafner was type 3.
I'd add 5. Jim Edmonds types who just overextend themselves.

Jeff Kent

Craig Biggio played a couple years in the outfield so the Astros could sign Jeff Kent.

Quote:
Mike Mussina

Mussina was just a sensational pitcher; he is long overdue to be in the Hall of Fame, but he’ll get in this year or next. He finally won 20 games in his last season and then he retired. Gotta love a guy going out on top.
Mussina will get in and he will deserve it.

Quote:
Andy Pettite

Andy Pettite is my personal odd choice for the Hall of Fame. His career ERA is 3.85, which is superficially not very impressive – good, but it’d be the second highest of any Hall of Fame pitcher, exceeded only by Jack Morris, and since he mostly pitched for the Yankees, people assume he won a lot of games just because he got a lot of offensive support.

I think he gets a bit of a bum rap. Pettite’s ERA was accumulated during an age of very high scoring. If you adjust it to league norms it’s as good as dozens of Hall of Famers. He had a reasonably long career by modern standards and won more playoff games than any other pitcher. Honestly I think he’s a clearly qualified choice but he probably won’t get in. He also admitted to using PEDs, which doesn’t help.
Pettite will get in eventually, I think, because there's going to be a long stretch after Halladay and before 5 years after Sabathia (maybe) or Verlander retires during which the best guy is probably Tim Hudson or Mark Buehrle? And the voters will get sick of not voting in any pitchers.

(That depends on how the PED issue plays out, and I have just no sense whatsoever of that kind of thing).

Curt Schilling

I figure Schilling gets in eventually as well, for similar reasons and because he eventually shuts up for a year or two. Steve Carlton is in, right?

Quote:
Billy Wagner

Wagner was an absolutely terrifying relief ace who threw about a million miles an hour. In fifteen years he was dominant every year except one bad season he was hurt. He was an objectively incredible pitcher.
Online Astros fans hated Billy Wagner. One board I frequented called him "the Gas Can". I decided after seeing that that fans tend to badly overrate their team's bench hitters but badly underrate their team's relief pitchers, but I'm not sure why. The successes/failures tend to stand out in memory?
  #11  
Old 11-20-2018, 08:21 PM
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Baseball did not bother to test for steroids after the World Series was cancelled in 94 because they wanted more home runs to bring fans back.
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Old 11-20-2018, 09:44 PM
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Baseball did not bother to test for steroids after the World Series was cancelled in 94 because they wanted more home runs to bring fans back.
They didn't test as the union blocked testing. Maybe the Commish didn't press hard enough for it, but it was the union that blocked it and not the league choosing not to test.
  #13  
Old 11-20-2018, 10:32 PM
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Edgar was just barely short of election last year, so the odds are he’ll make it this year, which will make him the first player ever who was largely a designated hitter to be elected to the Hall of Fame.
I guess that might depend on whether the Veterans' Committee elects Harold Baines at the Winter Meetings first. (They shouldn't, but they've elected quite a few who I don't think they should have.)
  #14  
Old 11-21-2018, 01:21 AM
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The other

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Octavio Dotel

The only player in major league history named either “Octavio” or “Dotel.” He didn’t make the ballot but I wanted to mention that.
See for example https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/0c6cd3b5.
  #15  
Old 11-21-2018, 08:22 AM
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I'd just like to say that virtually all of the little I know about the game has come from the SDMB - I've never even watched a game from start to finish - but I really enjoy reading these threads, especially the insightful, well-written analysis by the likes of RickJay - thanks.
  #16  
Old 11-21-2018, 09:31 AM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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Barkis - if I counted right, you named eleven people as Hall of Famers. Just curious - since the ballot is ten, who would you leave off this year?
Dammit, I do have 11.

Bonds
Clemens
Halladay
Edgar
Mussina
Manny
Mariano
Rolen
Schilling
Sosa
Walker

I think I'm going to leave off Rolen in favor of Walker because the former has more years left on the ballot and honestly, they are about as equal as it gets in HOF worthiness perspective.

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I guess that might depend on whether the Veterans' Committee elects Harold Baines at the Winter Meetings first. (They shouldn't, but they've elected quite a few who I don't think they should have.)
Is there any scuttlebutt around Baines possibly getting elected? He would be up there for weakest HOF player if he did. I say that as a big fan of Harold Baines.

Last edited by Barkis is Willin'; 11-21-2018 at 09:31 AM.
  #17  
Old 11-21-2018, 11:33 AM
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The voting by the Today's Game Era committee takes place Dec. 9th at the MLB winter meetings. The ballot:

Players

Lee Smith
Orel Hershiser
Joe Carter
Harold Baines
Albert Belle
Will Clark

Managers

Davey Johnson
Lou Pinella
Charlie Manuel

Owner

George Steinbrenner
  #18  
Old 11-21-2018, 11:49 AM
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Without getting into how "deserving" he is, I'd like to see Lee Smith in the HOF.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:06 PM
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Could you expand on this? Why doesn't "the most sure handed fielder who ever lived" deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?
Because he wasn't that great a player. His specific skill set of not making errors did not make that much of a difference in his teams winning games. It's a cool thing, but it's not a huge part of a ballplayer's skill set.

Polanco was a good fielder, but was nowhere near the fielder Ozzie Smith was. Fielding is about more than avoiding errors - in fact, you can be really good at avoiding errors and actually be a terrible fielder. My favourite example here is Adam Lind, who in his career played 249 games in the outfield and only made one error; he would have the highest fielding percentage of any left fielder in history if 249 games was enough to qualify. But he was a bad fielder, because he could only catch the ball if it was hit within twenty feet of where he was standing. Fielding is about making outs, not avoiding errors; a second baseman who makes ten more errors than Placido Polanco, but in doing so made forty outs Placido would not have made, has a lower fielding percentage, but is a better fielder. I'm not saying Placido was a bad fielder; he was way above average, but not like Ozzie or Brooks Robinson. He was similar in value to, say, Devon White.

Aside from being a better fielder - actually, in my opinion, the best fielder at any position, ever - Ozzie had a much longer career, a peak where he was a legitimate MVP candidate, and in his heyday was a more valuable offensive player than Placido was. Placido was a really good player but Ozzie is an unfair comparison.
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Old 11-21-2018, 01:16 PM
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Thanks, RickJay. No argument against anything you've said; I just wasn't familiar enough with Polanco to know what he did and did not bring to the table.
  #21  
Old 11-21-2018, 01:54 PM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is offline
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They didn't test as the union blocked testing. Maybe the Commish didn't press hard enough for it, but it was the union that blocked it and not the league choosing not to test.
as I said the league did not care about testing because they wanted more fans to come back after the 94 strike. Like somebody once said , singles hitters don't sell tickets. HR hitters do.
  #22  
Old 11-21-2018, 08:10 PM
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Thanks, RickJay. No argument against anything you've said; I just wasn't familiar enough with Polanco to know what he did and did not bring to the table.
I realize now I didn't really provide a lot of baseline info or links in my OP.
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  #23  
Old 11-23-2018, 03:28 PM
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Bonds
Clemens
Halladay
Kent
Martinez
Mussina
Rivera
Ramirez
Rolen
Schilling

and...
Lee Smith
Orel Hershiser
  #24  
Old 11-23-2018, 06:32 PM
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I know this would be duplicative but, if anybody wants it, I can submit another thread on this topic with a poll listing all the eligible players for the HOF. Then this thread can be combined with the other.
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Old 11-24-2018, 12:55 PM
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I know this would be duplicative but, if anybody wants it, I can submit another thread on this topic with a poll listing all the eligible players for the HOF. Then this thread can be combined with the other.
Sure, go ahead and I'll combine them.
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Old 11-24-2018, 07:18 PM
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The Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2019 Thread and Poll

Sorry about the misfire but here's the poll for this year's crop of HOF candidates. Pick up to ten and explain why if you want.
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Old 11-24-2018, 09:25 PM
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I cast just one vote, for Mariano Rivera. Some of the other guys on that list would get in based on just the numbers but have other significant issues. On the steroids list are Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens. There’s also a few guys who should probably be in based on their numbers but have non-baseball related issues. At the top of that list is Curt Schilling. Most of the other guys on that list are either borderline or clearly shouldn’t be in (Ted Lilly?).
  #28  
Old 11-25-2018, 07:11 PM
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BTW, I know there's already a thread on this topic but the poll mechanism wasn't set up. I started this new HOF with a poll so it can be merged with the previous one.
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Old 11-25-2018, 07:34 PM
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The broken poll thread was deleted, and the other HOF thread merged with this one, at NDP's request.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:29 PM
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I cast just one vote, for Mariano Rivera. Some of the other guys on that list would get in based on just the numbers but have other significant issues. On the steroids list are Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens. There’s also a few guys who should probably be in based on their numbers but have non-baseball related issues. At the top of that list is Curt Schilling. Most of the other guys on that list are either borderline or clearly shouldn’t be in (Ted Lilly?).
What about Roy Halladay & Moose at least?



Also, who the heck didn't vote for Mariano and could you please explain why?
  #31  
Old 11-26-2018, 10:21 AM
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The SDMB has typically been pretty stingy with HOF voting, but Mariano and Halladay are in real good shape. And Mussina is right at 75% at the moment, too.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:05 PM
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Larry Walker

See Todd Helton. The second best Canadian player of all time. Walker will not get to 75% before he drops off the ballot in 2020. It’s a shame, as he really does deserve it.

Larry became a major league regular in 1990 and retired after the 2005 season. In those sixteen years, he missed a significant amount of time to injury (or the 1994 lockout) in every single one of them except one, that being 1997, when he won the MVP Award. In every other season he missed at least 19 games, and on three occasions he missed half the season. If he’d been just a little less injury prone he’d have another 250 games or so, at least, and might well have gotten in.
Crap, I meant to vote for Walker this time around.

Here's an interesting Larry Walker factoid: in his MVP year, he had a gaudy 1.172 OPS. So you think Coors, right? His road OPS was 1.176! 29 of his 49 home runs were hit on the road.
In most of his peak years, his OPS away from Coors was over .900. If you factor in his plus defense and career OBP of .400 (numbers un-aided by Coors Field), I think his prime makes up for a lack of counting stats. It's pretty much the same thing with Roy Halladay. It's a shame...if they hadn't shortened the ballot stay from 15 years to 10 years, Walker might have gathered enough momentum. His case is far stronger than anyone on the Today's Game Committee.


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Kevin Youkilis

Youkilis is the subject of a chapter in “Moneyball” in which Billy Beane goes to enormous but ultimately unsuccessful attempts to fool the Red Sox into giving him to the A’s; they keep calling him “The Greek God of Walks.” He was right to try, as it turned out; Youkilis turned into exactly the kind of player they expected him to, a pretty solid righthanded hitter who did everything well except run.
I love the Terry Francona quote:

Quote:
I've seen him in the shower. He isn't the Greek god of anything.
  #33  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:28 AM
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The SDMB has typically been pretty stingy with HOF voting, but Mariano and Halladay are in real good shape. And Mussina is right at 75% at the moment, too.
The HOF method of voting, which we're adhering to, is an inherently flawed system. I really dislike it for a lot of reasons, but this is one; when you have a very full ballot the voters can't easily agree on anyone.
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  #34  
Old 11-27-2018, 09:54 AM
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How would you change it? Allow up to 15 on the ballot? Or get rid of the max?
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Old 11-27-2018, 10:51 AM
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I think I'd rather see a system quite totally different from the current one, and to have the BBWAA not be the only people involved. I don't really like any element of the current system.
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Old 11-27-2018, 11:11 AM
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Well, I voted, and I'm pleased to see that my vote for Roy Halladay has, at least as of this writing, pushed him to the 75% threshold.

But - and I hope it's not bad form to say this here - I'm depressed to say that the entire Hall of Fame process, including threads like this, has become an essentially joyless enterprise for me. I used to love these threads, and the attendant discussion. But while I understand and appreciate the folks who feel otherwise, for me a Hall of Fame that doesn't include the second-best baseball player of all time and the best pitcher of my lifetime is kind of just a joke. It's become the Hall-of-Players-Who-Were-Good-at-Baseball-but-Also-Meet-Some-Basically-Arbitrary-Conduct-Standards, and I can't generate enthusiasm to care about such a thing. It makes me sad, but so it goes, I guess.

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Old 11-27-2018, 11:33 AM
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I would have to agree with that. The steroid thing has, sadly, created this bizarre limbo of standards. Not having Bonds and Clemens in the Hall is just stupid.

At least with Sammy Sosa there is a case he's not deserving just based on his value as a ballplayer.
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Old 11-27-2018, 11:37 AM
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It's hard to disagree with that sentiment. Or where Mark McGwire falls off the ballot having never received even a quarter of the votes. Sammy Sosa won't crack 10% this year. On the one hand I agree these guys can't be just ignored.

On the other hand, the I do think the steroid era damaged baseball. Growing up, you knew that Roger Maris set the single season HR record with 61 in 1961. And you knew the 2nd highest total was 60. Now, you probably know Barry Bonds holds the record but do you know how many? Do you know what year he did it? Do you know the 2nd highest total? (Answers: 73, 2001, McGwire's 70 in '98.) Same with the career records, most fans probably don't know exactly what they are anymore. I really think stuff like that damages the game and I can understand why some voters hold that little five year run of baseball against those guys.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:21 PM
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Well, the only career homer record that's different is Bonds's 762. No one else surpassed Aaron, or, for that matter, Ruth.

Whatever the steroid thing did or did not do, a lot of the wounds are unnecessarily self-inflicted. Baseball is like Sideshow Bob stepping on one rake after another; just don't step on the next goddamn rake. Putting Bonds and Clemens into the Hall would get that out of the way, at least.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:22 PM
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The Curt Schilling criticism bothers me. Schilling according to WAR is the 26th best pitcher of all time. The 25th best pitcher ever by WAR was Bob Gibson who was a first ballot hall of famer. He is two spots ahead of Tom Glavine another first ballot hall of famer. Compared to Glavine, Schilling has a better ERA, more strikeouts, fewer walks, fewer hits per inning, better FIP, better WHIP. The only thing Glavine has is more wins. According to WPA he had the single greatest postseason by a pitcher in 2001.
He has one fewer career strikeout than Bob Gibson, and 625 fewer walks. He has a better strikeout to walk ratio then every hall of famer.

Some seem to be reluctant because of character issues. While he was playing he won the Branch Rickey award for community service, the Hutch Award for fighting adversity, the Lou Gehrig award for character and integrity, the Roberto Clemente award for sportsmanship and community involvement, he was Sporting News Sportsman of the year, twice Sport Illustrated Sportsman of the Year. He has raised $10 million for ALS research. He hosted a family in his house that had lost their home in hurricane Katrina.

The only possible reason for writers not to vote him in is that they disagree with his politics. If making the hall of fame depends more on having the correct political opinions than on baseball excellence there is no reason to have a hall of fame.
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Old 11-27-2018, 03:10 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Well, while we're at it, I am confused about Edgar Martinez being ahead of Mike Mussina. Mussina is rather clearly higher among a list of all time great pitchers than Martinez is among hitters.

Anyway, Schilling is absolutely on the outs with the voters, here and in the BBWAA, because he's a massively unlikable Trumpist dickhead and no one wants to shake his hand in Cooperstown. Is that unfair? I'm not sure; it does seem irrelevant to his career as a player, which by any reasonable analysis is more impressive than Roy Halladay, and Halladay will be shooed in with ease, and not just because he died.
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  #42  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:08 PM
Barkis is Willin' Barkis is Willin' is offline
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At least with Sammy Sosa there is a case he's not deserving just based on his value as a ballplayer.
Really? I mean, I guess if you just look at his career WAR it doesn't scream HOF. Somehow WAR was unkind to Sammy. Maybe it was all the strikeouts and the fact that league averages were way up during his run. But even considering that, he was one of the best; seven top 10 MVP finishes. WAR be damned, I think Sammy has a better case than Larry Walker, for example.
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Old 11-27-2018, 04:40 PM
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I'm not sure; it does seem irrelevant to his career as a player, which by any reasonable analysis is more impressive than Roy Halladay, and Halladay will be shooed in with ease, and not just because he died.
Hmmmm. I'm not sure I agree with this. Schilling had a longer career than Halladay, of course, and thus his counting statistics are generally better (including WAR, which is ultimately a counting stat). Yeah, Schilling struck out more guys than Halladay by a pretty sizable margin (Halladay walked fewer and gave up fewer home runs, albeit by much smaller margins).

But Schilling pitched the bulk of his career and had his best seasons in the National League; Halladay was an AL pitcher for three quarters of his career, facing designated hitters where Schilling faced opposing pitchers. For their careers, they both had very impressive ERA+, but Halladay's was better: 131 to 127. And while I'm not fond of this argument, Halladay won two Cy Young awards and Schilling never won any, which does carry weight with some voters.

Both were great pitchers, but I don't see where Schilling's HOF resume is "by any reasonable analysis" more impressive than Roy Halladay's.

-----

ETA: But this is exactly what I was trying to say above - I just can't get all that invested emotionally in discussing Schilling versus Halladay, because Roger Clemens was much better than either of them for much longer, and he's not in the Hall, so what does it matter?

Last edited by storyteller0910; 11-27-2018 at 04:43 PM.
  #44  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:49 PM
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kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
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Anyway, Schilling is absolutely on the outs with the voters, here and in the BBWAA, because he's a massively unlikable Trumpist dickhead and no one wants to shake his hand in Cooperstown.
FWIW, I realized that Schilling was an unlikable dickhead some years before he became a Trumpist.

I suppose I'm never sure what to do about players who are tremendously talented, but really are asshats, as well. (It's the same reason why I never liked Terrell Owens or Randy Moss, too.)
  #45  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:24 PM
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I suppose I'm never sure what to do about players who are tremendously talented, but really are asshats, as well. (It's the same reason why I never liked Terrell Owens or Randy Moss, too.)
Build a special Asshat Wing of the Hall of Fame.
  #46  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:11 PM
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Let's not pretend that Schilling supporting Trump is the reason he's not in the Hall. He was receiving the same amount of support as Mussina right up to the moment he endorsed the lynching of journalists. Maybe not the smartest move when you're being judged by a bunch of writers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barkis is Willin' View Post
Really? I mean, I guess if you just look at his career WAR it doesn't scream HOF. Somehow WAR was unkind to Sammy. Maybe it was all the strikeouts and the fact that league averages were way up during his run. But even considering that, he was one of the best; seven top 10 MVP finishes. WAR be damned, I think Sammy has a better case than Larry Walker, for example.
Better than Walker? How? Walker was clearly the better defender, and probably a better base runner too. All Sosa has is the homers.

Sosa: .273/.344/.534 and a 128 OPS+. wRC+ 124

Walker: .313/.400/.565 and a 141 OPS+. wRC+ 140

Walker clobbers Sosa in everything, including slugging percentage. Sosa has some higher counting stats but he also had nearly 2000 more plate appearances.
It's one of the problems with the whole PED issue: Clemens and Bonds are most likely Hall of Famers without steroids, but McGwire and Sosa are most likely not.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:10 PM
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Honestly, I think Walker was a WAY better player than Sammy. At his absolute peak, Sammy was a force to be reckoned with, but his absolute peak was 2001 and parts of 1998. When you consider the time he played in, Sammy is a marginal case. Walker was a way, way better all around player.

I guess the reason Walker doesn't get the love he deserves, aside from the Coors Field thing, is that he spent most of his career in out of the way markets and just was never the central story.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:02 PM
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Can I just say, as a complete ignoramus about historical baseball players etc - Rick Ankiel should be in any Hall of Fame just because of his outfield arm.
  #49  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:18 AM
Ulf the Unwashed Ulf the Unwashed is offline
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Some seem to be reluctant because of character issues. While he was playing he won the Branch Rickey award for community service, the Hutch Award for fighting adversity, the Lou Gehrig award for character and integrity, the Roberto Clemente award for sportsmanship and community involvement, he was Sporting News Sportsman of the year, twice Sport Illustrated Sportsman of the Year. He has raised $10 million for ALS research. He hosted a family in his house that had lost their home in hurricane Katrina.
....
Such a shame, then, that he decided not to be remembered for his deeds of character and integrity, but rather for a series of increasingly noxious opinions that culminated in the recommendation that people be murdered, through extrajudicial means, for exercising their First Amendment rights.

What I will never understand is why someone who won awards for community involvement and raise funds to fight disease and house storm refugees would decide to go down this very dark path instead.

But hey, only he can answer that. All I can do is remember the words of Jesus, whose commitment (unlike Schilling's) to community service, opposition to disease, and assistance to the neediest among us never wavered. "By their fruits ye shall know them," Jesus reminds us, and Schilling has chosen to show us fruits that are very nasty ones indeed.
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:06 AM
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I think Sosa's peak was more than one and a half seasons. He had an amazing five year run from '98 to '02 with another 4 - 5 years outside of that stretch that were pretty good.

I'd say Walker also had about 5 awesome years, but they were sprinkled among other really good seasons. I think the two are pretty darn comparable but yes, Sosa has some higher counting stats with I think matter for something. 600 home runs matters.

Another good comp on this HOF ballot might be Edgar Martinez. Edgar got just over 70% of votes from BBWAA last year and is crushing Sammy in our own poll. But he only had one top 5 MVP finish. He had about 2 more years of peak performance than Sammy and was more consistent, but I don't think his case is that much stronger.
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