View Poll Results: Who would you select on the 2019 Baseball HOF ballot? (Select no more than 10.)
Rick Ankiel 1 2.04%
Jason Bay 0 0%
Lance Berkman 1 2.04%
Barry Bonds 27 55.10%
Roger Clemens 30 61.22%
Freddy Garcia 0 0%
Jon Garland 0 0%
Travis Hafner 0 0%
Roy Halladay 34 69.39%
Todd Helton 6 12.24%
Andruw Jones 7 14.29%
Jeff Kent 3 6.12%
Ted Lilly 0 0%
Derek Lowe 0 0%
Edgar Martinez 31 63.27%
Fred McGriff 4 8.16%
Mike Mussina 26 53.06%
Darren Oliver 0 0%
Roy Oswalt 1 2.04%
Andy Pettitte 5 10.20%
Juan Pierre 0 0%
Placido Polanco 0 0%
Manny Ramirez 33 67.35%
Mariano Rivera 45 91.84%
Scott Rolen 8 16.33%
Curt Schilling 21 42.86%
Gary Sheffield 3 6.12%
Sammy Sosa 4 8.16%
Miguel Tejada 2 4.08%
Omar Vizquel 4 8.16%
Billy Wagner 1 2.04%
Larry Walker 16 32.65%
Vernon Wells 0 0%
Kevin Youkilis 2 4.08%
Michael Young 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:12 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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The case for Edgar is that he was a better hitter than Sammy. The most important thing a hitter can do is get on base, and Edgar was way, way better at getting on base than Sammy was.

What is more puzzling, of course, is why Edgar is ahead of Walker in our polling (of the BBWAA) because there just isn't any logic behind that. I've whined about this before, but I just can't defend that. Their careers are about the same length; Edgar is a slightly better hitter, but he has basically no defensive value, while Walker was a wonderful defensive player. I just cannot see how Edgar was a greater player.
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  #52  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:32 AM
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I think many of us knock 70 points off of Walker for his ballpark.

His splits are stark for Home vs Away.

Code:
Split	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB
Home	986	3429	789	1193	268	39	215	747	0.348	0.431	0.637	1.068	2184
Away	1002	3478	566	967	203	23	168	564	0.278	0.37	0.495	0.865	1720
  #53  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:09 AM
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What I will never understand is why someone who won awards for community involvement and raise funds to fight disease and house storm refugees would decide to go down this very dark path instead.
The lesson is to take all these "man of the year" and "community service" awards with a huge grain of salt. Very easy to game those awards and they are a combination of PR exercises and popularity contests. That's not to say that most, or even many, of these guys are douchebags, but the standards here are lax to say the least. Any player, regardless of his actual character, could probably win one of these awards if he and his agent set their minds to it.
  #54  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:30 AM
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The lesson is to take all these "man of the year" and "community service" awards with a huge grain of salt. Very easy to game those awards and they are a combination of PR exercises and popularity contests. That's not to say that most, or even many, of these guys are douchebags, but the standards here are lax to say the least. Any player, regardless of his actual character, could probably win one of these awards if he and his agent set their minds to it.
While I think some of the awards are well-deserved, I'm reminded of former Packers defensive back Eugene Robinson. The day before he played in Super Bowl XXXIII, he received the Bart Starr Award for outstanding character and leadership, then, later that evening, he was arrested for soliciting a prostitute (who turned out to be an undercover cop).
  #55  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:32 PM
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Such a shame, then, that he decided not to be remembered for his deeds of character and integrity, but rather for a series of increasingly noxious opinions that culminated in the recommendation that people be murdered, through extrajudicial means, for exercising their First Amendment rights.

What I will never understand is why someone who won awards for community involvement and raise funds to fight disease and house storm refugees would decide to go down this very dark path instead.

But hey, only he can answer that. All I can do is remember the words of Jesus, whose commitment (unlike Schilling's) to community service, opposition to disease, and assistance to the neediest among us never wavered. "By their fruits ye shall know them," Jesus reminds us, and Schilling has chosen to show us fruits that are very nasty ones indeed.
I would think most people would say fruits in context means someone's actions more than their jokes. Raising 10 million dollars to help sick people is much more of a fruit than sharing an offensive meme on Facebook.
  #56  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:38 PM
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I think many of us knock 70 points off of Walker for his ballpark.
If you DIDN'T knock a few points off for his ballpark (well, his ballpark for 60% of his career) you'd have to conclude he was a better hitter than Willie Mays or Hank Aaron. Park effect is what brings him down from "inner circle Hall of Famer" to "just a Hall of Famer."

I think it's important to note that adjusting for park effects isn't about adjusting that player's personal splits. It's about ALL players' splits. If Smith is particularly adept at taking advantage of his home park, that is not an illusion - that is real value that causes Smith's team to win games. (Mel Ott was like this.) If Jones is particularly prone to being hurt by his home park, more than other players, that is not an illusion, it's a real disadvantage that causes his team to win fewer games.
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  #57  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:40 PM
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The case for Edgar is that he was a better hitter than Sammy. The most important thing a hitter can do is get on base, and Edgar was way, way better at getting on base than Sammy was.

What is more puzzling, of course, is why Edgar is ahead of Walker in our polling (of the BBWAA) because there just isn't any logic behind that. I've whined about this before, but I just can't defend that. Their careers are about the same length; Edgar is a slightly better hitter, but he has basically no defensive value, while Walker was a wonderful defensive player. I just cannot see how Edgar was a greater player.
I think it is that Edgar is noted for being the best DH of all time whereas Walker is not nearly the best right fielder of all time. For some reason players who are great at one thing seem to get more traction than those who are very good at everything.
  #58  
Old 11-28-2018, 12:52 PM
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I think many of us knock 70 points off of Walker for his ballpark.

His splits are stark for Home vs Away.

Code:
Split	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB
Home	986	3429	789	1193	268	39	215	747	0.348	0.431	0.637	1.068	2184
Away	1002	3478	566	967	203	23	168	564	0.278	0.37	0.495	0.865	1720
On the other hand, his away OPS of .865 is higher than the career OPS of Roberto Clemente, Reggie Jackson, Tony Gwynn, Al Kaline, Dave Winfield and other Hall of Fame rightfielders.
  #59  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:00 PM
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While I think some of the awards are well-deserved, I'm reminded of former Packers defensive back Eugene Robinson. The day before he played in Super Bowl XXXIII, he received the Bart Starr Award for outstanding character and leadership, then, later that evening, he was arrested for soliciting a prostitute (who turned out to be an undercover cop).
It's an excellent example. Though, for me, those two things don't necessarily need to be contradictory.
  #60  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:10 PM
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On the other hand, his away OPS of .865 is higher than the career OPS of Roberto Clemente, Reggie Jackson, Tony Gwynn, Al Kaline, Dave Winfield and other Hall of Fame rightfielders.
But Ops is only one stat.
Clemente got in for being Clemente and his 3000 hits. He is basically a baseball saint though like Lou Gehrig, Jackie Robinson & Christy Mathewson.

Reggie got in for 500 home runs when it still meant a lot and being Mr. October.

Tony Gwynn is a 3000 hits guy and 8 hitting titles.

Al Kaline & Dave Winfield punched the 3000 hit ticket. It is a ticket in as you know.
  #61  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:12 PM
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Great players, no doubt about it. Walker doesn't have the counting stats, but take a look at JAWS for right fielders. He's 10th all-time. And he only had 8030 Plate Appearances. That's remarkable. Sure, he's no Clemente or Kaline, but his peak puts him on the same plane as Reggie, Guerrero and Winfield.

I feel like I'm trying to sell is candidacy, lol.
  #62  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:38 PM
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This is an important year for Walker on the real BBWAA ballot. He went from 21.9% in 2017 to 34.1% in 2018. 2019 will be his 9th year on the ballot, so only one more after that. But he's still got a long way to go. I'm comfortable saying he will not get voted in by the BBWAA, but the veterans will probably get him in like they did with Alan Trammel.

Looking back at other guys who the BBWAA elected in their final years on the ballot, they usually were getting 60+% with 2 or 3 years remaining. Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, even Bruce Sutter was getting 60% with a year to go. Can't find an instance of someone going from 40% or less with only a couple years of eligibility remaining and then getting voted in.
  #63  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:44 PM
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It's out. Who should get in?


Rick Ankiel

A much ballyhooed young pitcher, brought up very young by the Cardinals, and he swiftly caught Steve Blass Disease, finding himself unable to throw a strike.
When it became apparent he wasn’t going to be able to pitch again, he decided to try to make it back to the majors as an outfielder, and to my admitted amazement, he did it, and had a pretty decent year in 2008, hitting 25 homers.

As inspirational as that is, I don’t understand why he’s on the ballot. He wasn’t a regular player long enough to really merit it. Ryan Dempster, who had a full career and was twice the player, isn’t on the ballot.
Players are automatically put on the ballot if they had played for ten years. That's why Ankiel is there.

Dempster seems to have been left off on a technicality. Though he didn't play in 2014, he did not officially retire until after the season was over. So he should be eligible next year.
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Last edited by RealityChuck; 11-28-2018 at 04:48 PM.
  #64  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:24 AM
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Ted Lilly

Had some good years but isnít even half a Hall of Famer. He was on the All Star team in 2004 for the Blue Jays not because he deserved it but because no one else on the team was any good, and the rules says every team gets at least one All Star.
Just throwing out that I can't read this guy's name without remembering how irritated I was that the Yankees traded him away early in his career for Jeff Weaver. Hall of Famer? Absolutely not, but I would have preferred him to the hilariously overpaid disappointments that followed his departure.
  #65  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:39 AM
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Just throwing out that I can't read this guy's name without remembering how irritated I was that the Yankees traded him away early in his career for Jeff Weaver. Hall of Famer? Absolutely not, but I would have preferred him to the hilariously overpaid disappointments that followed his departure.
No where near as bad as when we traded Al Leiter for Jesse Barfield, but the Lilly trade was stupid.

As I recall, "The Boss" was frustrated with Ted Lilly struggling in the 5th, decreed trade this guy and get me a starter. Cashman got Jeff Weaver who disappointed and disappointed and then got moved landing us the grossly overpaid moron Kevin Brown. Who surprisingly was OK year one until he punch a wall in the playoffs and broke his hand.

Meanwhile the 2003-2006* Ted Lilly ate innings, got decisions and overall was about a 4.50 ERA pitcher. So as frustrating as it was, it wasn't the worse decision by any means.

* The 4 seasons the Yanks would have controlled Lilly.
  #66  
Old 11-29-2018, 04:47 PM
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No where near as bad as when we traded Al Leiter for Jesse Barfield, but the Lilly trade was stupid.
Heh. My dad is a longtime Yankees fan. Ever since I was a kid, he'd make up silly, sometimes clever nicknames for Yankees and Mets players. But oh boy did he hate that trade. He was so frustrated that the best he could manage was "Jesse Suckfield," which he continues to call him to this day.
  #67  
Old 11-29-2018, 04:50 PM
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He was so frustrated that the best he could manage was "Jesse Suckfield," which he continues to call him to this day.
All he really had to do was take the "ield" off the end of Jesse's name.
  #68  
Old 11-29-2018, 04:57 PM
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Heh. My dad is a longtime Yankees fan. Ever since I was a kid, he'd make up silly, sometimes clever nicknames for Yankees and Mets players. But oh boy did he hate that trade. He was so frustrated that the best he could manage was "Jesse Suckfield," which he continues to call him to this day.
I graduated 1 year after Al, I grew up in the same HS baseball circuit. I remember when he struck out 26 batters in a game. I was really excited when the Yanks drafted him. That and the Yogi firing were probably the two worse Boss moves to me. I was incredibly angry about both.
  #69  
Old 11-29-2018, 05:08 PM
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I'm generally a tight-hall guy and there are guys I'd kick out if I could. But there are some good players - and a lot of very good players - on this ballot.

I voted for:

Bonds
Clemens
Halladay
Martinez
Mussina
Ramirez
Rivera
Sheffield

I see that many agreed with me and that's good. On the steroids issue, I've always thought of it as a red herring. Yes, Bonds used them. But if you check on Mantle and some of the other greats they'll admit to using amphetamines and other performance enhancers to play ball. I would be astonished if players all through time didn't attempt to enhance themselves on way or the other in ways legal and not. The money - and therefore the incentive - is just too strong.

Ditto Clemens. I am 51 years old and was blessed in my 20s to see two pitchers who were worthy of inclusion in the all-time best. Up there with Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson and Warren Spahn are both Greg Maddux and Roger Clemens.

On the subject of Jeff Kent, from Rick's OP. Remember, Ryne Sandberg was also a 20th round pick. There may be a research study in there on whether low drafted infielders are more likely to surprise than other positions.
  #70  
Old 11-30-2018, 10:27 AM
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These poll results are weird. Rivera is now probably the only guy who will get elected.

Falling just short are Roy Halladay and Manny Ramirez(!?) each with 71.05%. Meanwhile, Bonds and Clemens are between 50% - 60%. I'm sorry, but how does one vote for Manny over those guys?
  #71  
Old 11-30-2018, 12:12 PM
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These poll results are weird. Rivera is now probably the only guy who will get elected.

Falling just short are Roy Halladay and Manny Ramirez(!?) each with 71.05%. Meanwhile, Bonds and Clemens are between 50% - 60%. I'm sorry, but how does one vote for Manny over those guys?
Bonds & Clemens aren't getting the votes as they were the faces of steroid use and also assholes to the press that carried over to pissing off the fans. It isn't all that confusing. Manny, who also cheated, was basically one of baseball's oddballs. Likable, scary hitter and entertaining. Not that I voted for him, but I get it.
  #72  
Old 11-30-2018, 12:16 PM
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Bonds & Clemens aren't getting the votes as they were the faces of steroid use and also assholes to the press that carried over to pissing off the fans. It isn't all that confusing. Manny, who also cheated, was basically one of baseball's oddballs. Likable, scary hitter and entertaining. Not that I voted for him, but I get it.
Pretty much, this. Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling, I suspect, are all losing votes here (and probably with the actual voters, too), due to the "quite the asshole" factor. Some voters believe that what was done on the field should be all that matters. Others feel differently.
  #73  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:52 PM
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So take steroids completely out of the equation you still think Manny gets more votes than Bonds or Clemens? That's unjustifiable.
  #74  
Old 11-30-2018, 02:09 PM
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So take steroids completely out of the equation you still think Manny gets more votes than Bonds or Clemens? That's unjustifiable.
I don't, but I also didn't vote for Manny.
  #75  
Old 11-30-2018, 02:09 PM
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So take steroids completely out of the equation you still think Manny gets more votes than Bonds or Clemens? That's unjustifiable.
I doubt it; I think that, for enough voters, it's the combo platter of steroids and asshattery for those two. And, it probably doesn't help that, while there were a lot of players who were using PEDs at a greater or lesser level, Bonds and Clemens were, by far, the poster children (at least in media coverage) for being heavy users while making categorical (and, IMO, really unbelievable) denials about it.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 11-30-2018 at 02:10 PM.
  #76  
Old 11-30-2018, 02:20 PM
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I doubt it; I think that, for enough voters, it's the combo platter of steroids and asshattery for those two. And, it probably doesn't help that, while there were a lot of players who were using PEDs at a greater or lesser level, Bonds and Clemens were, by far, the poster children (at least in media coverage) for being heavy users while making categorical (and, IMO, really unbelievable) denials about it.
I would add Big Mac & Sammy Sosa to the face of steroids list though. Maybe A-Rod too. He was the face of it in the NY area at least. Not as sure nationally.

If Clemens or Bonds were clean, I would vote for them despite being an asshole. Hell, I voted for Curt Schilling despite mostly hating him.

Actually if Manny was clean he would probably get a vote from me. He is not as good a Clemens or Bonds, but he was an RBI machine and helped his teams win.
  #77  
Old 11-30-2018, 03:29 PM
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Steroids or no steroids, Bond and Clemens or no Bonds and Clemens, I don't see how you can omit Manny, with a career BA of .312 with 555 HRs.
  #78  
Old 11-30-2018, 05:38 PM
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On the steroids issue, I've always thought of it as a red herring. Yes, Bonds used them. But if you check on Mantle and some of the other greats they'll admit to using amphetamines and other performance enhancers to play ball.
This is a popular argument that just doesn't work for me. Steroids are just different than greenies. It's the bazooka of PEDs versus a pop gun. I'm more swayed by the argument that "everyone" was using PEDs and thus these players were still that much better than their peers, but that argument requires the dubious assumption that the majority of players were juicing. I think it's a big number, but if it's anywhere south of 80% then the argument falls apart.

If you ask me if Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod or Manny were one of the top 50 players of all time, it's an unequivocal yes. Hell, I think Sosa and McGuire may have still been fringe HOFers without PEDs. But the PED use is disqualifying, not because it turned non-HOFers in HOFers, but because it's a character/rule breaking thing similar to gambling.

The HOF isn't for the best players, the HOF is for the best examples of players.
  #79  
Old 12-02-2018, 04:00 PM
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If you ask me if Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod or Manny were one of the top 50 players of all time, it's an unequivocal yes. Hell, I think Sosa and McGuire may have still been fringe HOFers without PEDs. But the PED use is disqualifying, not because it turned non-HOFers in HOFers, but because it's a character/rule breaking thing similar to gambling.

The HOF isn't for the best players, the HOF is for the best examples of players.
1. "McGwire," and honestly I don't think he'd have been in baseball anymore without steroids; they helped him come back from injuries that were derailing his career in 1993-1994.

2. I don't think steroids are anything like gambling. There is only one example of that stopping someone's HOF case; Pete Rose. (Shoeless Joe Jackson didn't bet on his own games; he was banned for participating in a conspiracy to lose the World Series in return for payment, which he accepted part of. As it happens the payments came from people making money from gambling, but it wasn't Jackson doing the gambling.)

The problem with gambling is that a player or manager who gambles on his own games bring into question whether he is trying to win or trying to lose. It is the ultimate conflict of interest; a player would be also banned for life for, say, secretly accepting payments from a rival team.

A player who took steroids isn't in a conflict of interest. It's cheating, or at least it was now - it wasn't until 1991 there was any rule against it, and HGH wasn't banned until 2005 - but spitballs are also cheating, greenies are cheating, so on and so forth. I don't like cheating, and it should be punished, but it's not a conflict of interest. Say what you will about Bonds, Clemens and Manny, but they were trying to win. Pete Rose... I'm not sure. And by placing himself in an "I'm not sure" position, he deserves what he gets.
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Old 12-03-2018, 12:30 PM
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Fun column for the all the non-Placido Polanco supporters (and other interesting observations).
  #81  
Old 12-03-2018, 12:59 PM
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Fun column for the all the non-Placido Polanco supporters (and other interesting observations).
I guess that writer doesn't vote for steroids guys (although he does vote for Jeff Kent, who never got caught, but come on). And it seems his vote for Polanco is more about trying to get him to 5% just to stay on the ballot. But why? What difference does it make if you never get in?
  #82  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:12 PM
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I think it is that Edgar is noted for being the best DH of all time whereas Walker is not nearly the best right fielder of all time. For some reason players who are great at one thing seem to get more traction than those who are very good at everything.
In addition to that, Edgar was also the best Mariner before Ken Griffey Jr., and he was a lifelong Mariner. I think there's a little ephemeral boost you get for team loyalty, or at least for easy identification with a single uniform. Larry Walker was definitely a two team guy, and those were two much worse teams than Gar's M's.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:29 PM
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I'm admittedly petty about Sheffield. He essentially pouted his way off of the Brewers, and, from then on, I never cared for his attitude. Maybe he goes in the Asshole Wing, too.

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  #84  
Old 12-03-2018, 02:38 PM
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In addition to that, Edgar was also the best Mariner before Ken Griffey Jr...
I mean, literally speaking, he certainly was not. Prior to 1989, when Griffey debuted, Edgar had only played 27 games in the majors, and in 1989 he only played 65. At every point in their careers after Edgar's cups of coffee in 1987 and 1988, Griffey had helped the Mariners more. You could make a pretty strong argument Griffey was the greater Mariner even if you only count his Seattle years against Edgar's entire career.

I am obviously not the first person to ever say this, but you''d have trouble finding any franchise in baseball history that did less with more talent than the Seattle Mariners of the 1990s. They had three no brainers Hall of Famers, a pretty good candidate in Edgar, and a hell of a supporting cast. You'd think they would have owned the league.
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  #85  
Old 12-09-2018, 09:00 PM
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Lee Smith and Harold Baines in the HOF.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...make-hall-fame
  #86  
Old 12-09-2018, 09:29 PM
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Is this a joke story? How is Baines a HOF'er? Lee Smith really isn't either, but what the hell did Baines do to earn this honor?
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:23 PM
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I hate the stupid Veteran’s Committee or whatever they call themselves these days. That’s what caused the bloat in the Hall of Fame to begin with.
  #88  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:10 AM
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Wow. I brought up the possibility earlier just as a hypothetical, I didn't think they'd really do it.

There really needs to be some greater bar to "extra chance elections" for anyone recent who was voted down by the BBWAA.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:51 AM
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Halliday will get a few bonus votes because he died.
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  #90  
Old 12-10-2018, 05:41 AM
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These committees suck and they're making a mockery of the honor. Just for perspective:

Harold Baines (38.7 bWAR)
Brett Gardner (37.5 bWAR)

Blech. What a joke.
  #91  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:06 AM
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Baines is easily the worst position player post-WWII to be elected to the Hall of Fame (there were some very bad choices from the 1920s and 1930s, and even they have arguments they're greater than Baines.) I mean, if Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer, Edgar Martinez should get in with what, 140% of the vote? I assume Big Papi will be built his own wing? Baines was a good player but...

.. well, let me put it this way; if I started a thread called "Players Who Were Greater Than Harold Baines But Aren't In The Hall of Fame" and every day, just once a day, posted the credentials of a player who's not in the Hall but at least probably deserves it more than Harold Baines, I still would not be done when the 2019 World Series ends. Harold Baines wasn't any better than Rusty Staub, the player I can think of most like Baines. Anyone think Rusty is a Hall of Famer?

I thin Lee Smith was a terrible choice, too, but at least he does not appear quite as out of place as compared to other enshrined relief pitchers, so if you're grading on that curve he's ahead of Harold Baines.

I thought they made a mistake with Jack Morris, but Morris is way, way, way more qualified than Harold Baines and Lee Smith. That's no contest at all.
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Last edited by RickJay; 12-10-2018 at 01:35 PM.
  #92  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:35 AM
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With Bruce Sutter in, Lee Smith is definitely not the worst pitcher or even worst relief pitcher in the HOF. Not saying that "not the worst" should be the bar, but I do like Lee Smith.
And yes, there are so many better players than Harold Baines that are not in the HOF (nor should they be) I barely know where to begin.
  #93  
Old 12-10-2018, 01:34 PM
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I would definitely rank Sutter higher than Smith, but YMMV. I think it fair to say neither is a terrific choice. If we're arguing their relative merits about the HOF we aren't arguing about the right two players.
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:22 PM
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I would like to ditch the Vet's Committee entirely (for modern players), but many feel that some players who have been voted down by the BBWAA deserve extra chances. But even many of those agree that the Vet's Committee is making selections that the BBWAA was correct about rejecting. I'd like to propose the following change to Hall of Fame voting:

Should the Veterans' Committee vote in a player who was already rejected by the BBWAA, the BBWAA must vote on whether or not to allow that induction to proceed, with only 25% acceptance required to ratify. Should more than 75% of the BBWAA vote against the induction, the Vet's induction is cancelled, and said player shall no longer be eligible for Vet's Committee consideration.

It has the effect of giving a path to induction for those who might have been wrongfully passed over, but at least some weight is given to the fact that the BBWAA's initial rejection is not to be so lightly discarded.
  #95  
Old 12-10-2018, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
I would like to ditch the Vet's Committee entirely (for modern players), but many feel that some players who have been voted down by the BBWAA deserve extra chances. But even many of those agree that the Vet's Committee is making selections that the BBWAA was correct about rejecting. I'd like to propose the following change to Hall of Fame voting:

Should the Veterans' Committee vote in a player who was already rejected by the BBWAA, the BBWAA must vote on whether or not to allow that induction to proceed, with only 25% acceptance required to ratify. Should more than 75% of the BBWAA vote against the induction, the Vet's induction is cancelled, and said player shall no longer be eligible for Vet's Committee consideration.

It has the effect of giving a path to induction for those who might have been wrongfully passed over, but at least some weight is given to the fact that the BBWAA's initial rejection is not to be so lightly discarded.
That's a bloody good idea.

Also, how do players like Baines and Joe Carter get another look, but not Lou Whitaker?
  #96  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:10 PM
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I'm all for checks and balances, and I don't have a better solution at this very moment but giving even more power to the BBWAA is not ideal.
  #97  
Old 12-10-2018, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Baines is easily the worst position player post-WWII to be elected to the Hall of Fame (there were some very bad choices from the 1920s and 1930s, and even they have arguments they're greater than Baines.) I mean, if Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer, Edgar Martinez should get in with what, 140% of the vote? I assume Big Papi will be built his own wing? Baines was a good player but...

.. well, let me put it this way; if I started a thread called "Players Who Were Greater Than Harold Baines But Aren't In The Hall of Fame" and every day, just once a day, posted the credentials of a player who's not in the Hall but at least probably deserves it more than Harold Baines, I still would not be done when the 2019 World Series ends. Harold Baines wasn't any better than Rusty Staub, the player I can think of most like Baines. Anyone think Rusty is a Hall of Famer?
Completely agreed. Today, we begin three decades of debate along the lines of "why the hell isn't [X] in the Hall, when Harold Baines is in there?"
  #98  
Old 12-11-2018, 11:12 AM
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Pretty good article by The Ringer as to how Baines got in the Hall, and how he ranks with other "bad" choices for the HoF. They go through the effort of determining how the other "bad" choices made it and, surprise! It's the Veterans Committee (or successors).

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2018/1...-era-committee
  #99  
Old 12-11-2018, 11:57 AM
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That Hall of Baines is pretty good. I almost feel bad for Harold. It's not his fault he got elected, he didn't even expect it. All he did was play pretty decent baseball for a long time and now he's going to be known for being basically the worst HOFer.
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:08 PM
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Well, worst of modern times, anyway. Some of the Frisch selections were probably worse.
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