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  #51  
Old 01-22-2019, 01:03 PM
Airk Airk is offline
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Originally Posted by storyteller0910 View Post
Just a belated reply to this - can't speak to Legend of Heroes, but for Divinity, at lower difficulty levels you can ignore all of this stuff completely. At the lowest difficulty level ("Story"), you literally can't die, so obviously it doesn't matter what you do in terms of setup. At the second-lowest level ("Explorer"), you just need to do the obvious, standard RPG stuff - level up strength for your fighters and intelligence for your mages. The third level ("Classic") gets difficult and requires a little bit of optimization but you can really win with any build. The last level ("Tactician") is a MASSIVE leap and becomes exponentially harder - Tactician really requires pretty tight optimization but Classic can be won with a suboptimal build and Explorer can be won with basically any moderately intuitive approach.

And the story is really good for a game of this kind. A lot of characters are set up in a particular way that makes them feel very trope-y, but go in directions you don't expect.
Yeah; Likewise for Legend of Heroes, you really don't need to "optimize" anything on the default ("Normal") difficulty level. If you can handle "I see this shop has weapon upgrades for my party, so I will buy as many as I can" then you've probably got the required level of mastery. If you can handle "This character misses more than I'd like, so I'm going to equip a thing with an accuracy bonus" or perhaps "I just lost to a boss that petrified my party, so this time, I will equip things that protect me from petrification!" then you are totally there. There aren't even really weapon choices. It's "This character uses one handed swords, so I'm going to get them the best one handed sword I can." There are more choices in other equipment types, but you can totally muddle through. The game isn't there for the challenge unless you push the difficulty setting WAY up.

You'll also probably discover that you don't need to keep much information "in your head" at all -- anytime you are considering using a thing or taking an action, there will be an explanation of what it does.
  #52  
Old 01-26-2019, 09:09 PM
DKW DKW is offline
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Just a belated reply to this - can't speak to Legend of Heroes, but for Divinity, at lower difficulty levels you can ignore all of this stuff completely. At the lowest difficulty level ("Story"), you literally can't die, so obviously it doesn't matter what you do in terms of setup.
"You should've led with that!" - Barbara Kean

Well, that settles it. THIS is what I've been talking about all this time, THIS is what I need, THIS is what I need right now, something completely free of the stress of four decades or electronic aggravation. Just get in there and have a blast firing off sheets of flame and energy bolts and ice storms (or whatever), and I can optimize my setup or master advanced tactics on my own time.

I'm going to get back into a genre I'd completely left for dead ages ago. This...this means a lot to me. Thank you.

Oh, just tossing off another question offhand: to anyone who's played Rock Band 4, how is the campaign mode? I find the song list underwhelming (per usual), but I might give this a try if has a really good story.
  #53  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:08 PM
storyteller0910 storyteller0910 is offline
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"You should've led with that!" - Barbara Kean

Well, that settles it. THIS is what I've been talking about all this time, THIS is what I need, THIS is what I need right now, something completely free of the stress of four decades or electronic aggravation. Just get in there and have a blast firing off sheets of flame and energy bolts and ice storms (or whatever), and I can optimize my setup or master advanced tactics on my own time.

I'm going to get back into a genre I'd completely left for dead ages ago. This...this means a lot to me. Thank you.

Oh, just tossing off another question offhand: to anyone who's played Rock Band 4, how is the campaign mode? I find the song list underwhelming (per usual), but I might give this a try if has a really good story.
Awesome! Make sure you go with Divinity 2, not the original, which I think is leaden and boring with an order of magnitude worse writing. And, one minor story-related piece of advice. You get to choose between generating your own character or using one of six pre-generated characters as your "primary;" you can then recruit up to three of those pre-generated characters to make up your party. All six have interesting side stories. I strongly recommend that you do not play as the character named "Fane," but that you do recruit him as a party member. Fane knows a lot about what's going on in the plot, which he will share with you if he is a companion but won't ever say out loud if he's your main character.
  #54  
Old 01-30-2019, 12:15 AM
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Mafia 3 might be of interest. It's fun but parts of it can be a bit frustrating (e.g.: storming the submarine in the Stones Unturned DLC*) until the player figures out the best way to handle those situations. Staying alive gets easier when Lincoln gets access to throwing knives.


*Most of the time, the trick is to go slow so you don't aggro too many mooks and get swarmed. Here you need to go fast to avoid the boss with the RPG and duck into a little room to pick off the mook coming up the stairs.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 01-30-2019 at 12:19 AM.
  #55  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:40 PM
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Noone's suggested Final Fantasy XV? I know it's like two years old but they're still updating it. There's another DLC due in March. I just love the game honestly and was surprised how good it was since my experience with the FF games has generally been disappointing past VII. The guy who voiced the main protagonist, wow. I was just blown away by his acting, especially at end game.

Games I enjoy on the PS4:

Witcher 3 - amazing story, great voice acting, great graphics
Subnautica - More of an open world, very little direction game (but there IS an end goal) so maybe not your cup of tea
Dragon Quest XI - Another JRPG, though completely different side of the spectrum from FFXV, I still enjoyed it
Rime - An enjoyable, low stress little adventure/puzzle game
Stardew Valley - Time management, farming game in the same kinda realm as those old Harvest Moon games

Fwiw, my 11 year old daughter is OBSESSED with Hatsune Miku Project Diva. Dear god, I am so SICK of listening to those songs in the background but she is GOOD. She's unlocked everything, has mastered 90% of the songs. I love rhythm games but I couldn't handle this one. So I'm impressed with her lol
  #56  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:14 AM
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Okay, update. First, a note about achievements. While I'm not obsessed about them and I'll gladly skip one or two that I find excessive or just not worth the effort, I do find them a useful indicator for how suitable a game is. If I can complete tasks in a nice, orderly progression, with a few others that I have to work on specifically, and maybe 10-30% that are out of reach, that's fantastic. If I find that I can get hardly anything and even the basic achievements look way out of reach, that's a pretty reliable sign that I made a bad purchase (Guitar Hero Live was a great example, and pretty much every fighting game ever would qualify). I always have an eye on achievements, and a very long dry spell is always a red flag.

Now then. Flower. I've had enough of this piece of junk as I can stand. (I wish I could say that I'm surprised at how quickly my opinion turned.) Granted, it had its share of annoyances, such as never being able to go backwards (hate that!) and the frequent jump cuts that continually disoriented me and made it really hard to stay on track. And the nonsensical-sounding achievements, one of which I couldn't even figure out at all.

All of which would've been at least mostly tolerable were it not for the fourth level, which had a very long stretch where I didn't have the faintest idea where I was supposed to go. I could see the new area in the distance, and I kept getting blown back because there was still the one thing I had to do in the previous area, which I didn't even have a clue for because this game had to have the immersion. Argh! Frustrating!

But I figured that could have been an anomaly, so I soldiered on, to the fifth level, where I damn near got tendonitis from the horrible vibrations every time I touched something I shouldn't. (Why doesn't the game have any option to shut off vibration?? I had to go into system options to shut off this torment.)

But okay, should've gone for the permanent solution in the first place, live and learn. And the next thing I learned was that this game was hopeless. Sixth level. Restore the city. Forced-movement lanes, blowbacks, and the same problem as level 4 where I don't now where to go, but with a much bigger area now.

Arcite, I'm not resentful...it was only about seven bucks, after all. But this is exactly why I have so much trouble getting testimonials that are actually helpful for me. Time and again I hear about things that are "really easy" and "relaxing", and I run into frustrations and irritations and annoyances and dead ends that no one's ever mentioned. Did I mentioned that WWE game I played for about 10 minutes before dumping it in the trash?

Little Big Planet 3 still looks good, though; will probably give it a chance sometime this year.

Got Divinity Original Sin Enhanced Edition this weekend. (I know 2's supposed to be the good one, but again, this is my first RPG in over two decades; gotta walk before I can run.) Wow. How do I put this...it's breathtaking simple and astoundingly complex at the same time, and seemingly designed to appeal to both little kids and raging militant ultra-hardcores (with a third level for the apparent centerline of this dichotomy). The story and gameplay...what little I've seen so far, anyway...are largely linear, and its not possible to get lost since 1. everything is mapped out to the last pixel (woot! ) and 2. there aren't a whole lot of places to go in the first place. There's a gigantic smorgasbord of skills, items, and attributes, all of which are fully accessible by all characters (this appears to be the big selling point). I have no illusions that I'll ever fully grasp all the things in this game, much less develop anything in the same friggin' galaxy as strategic mastery, and I'm going to hack 'n slash 'n flail 'n fumble 'n generally look like a bungling rank novice in my first, oh, 75 fights or so, but that's what Explorer level is for, right? Buddy, give me infinite health and I'll swim through a lake of acid. In fact, I completely fail to understand why I've never seen games that have this ever trumpet it. I have to imagine that this would make an enormous difference for a lot of players, especially those that aren't familiar with the genre. For crying out loud, Minecraft can't say "We have a mode where nothing that can kill you ever shows up!" Anyway, looks beautiful, having fun just going around and doing stuff, I'm sure I'm going to have a blast, thank you storyteller for telling me about this.

A few more quickie notes:

Shantae Half Genie Hero: Finally figured out how to beat the first boss, and I also got the second, although it was way too frustrating. Taking a break from this for a while and trying to figure out what I did wrong. Maybe I got the wrong powerups, or maybe I'm just extremely shellshocked from all the freakishly difficult/horribly designed platformers I've played over the past couple of years (I got took a lot more hits from those mermaids than I expected). It looks good and I look forward to making it further.

Atari Flashback Classics Vol. 1: Someone here said it best - the idea of being able to play classic Atari games on the PS4 is better than actually playing classic Atari games on the PS4. Still, it's good for what it is, a few minutes of blasting stuff. Will probably get the rest at some point. I would appreciate a proper paddle controller (anyone know where to get one?).

Brothers: Got a little bit into this. Yeah, it's a walking simulator, mainly existing to show quirky animations and pretty graphics. Works for what it is, and I'm haven't gotten the frustrations I did from Flower. Will get back to it again sometime.

Rime sounds like it's right up my alley; the exploration and discovery aspects of Assassin's Creed without the stress of combat or missions. Will definitely get it.
  #57  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:07 AM
DKW DKW is offline
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I got them. Initial impressions:

Rime - This looks really, really good. Heck, I'll go a step further: This is exactly what I need right now. While it has the look of the Myst games, it's not truly open-world, as tasks need to be done in a more or less specific order. Fortunately, there are subtle hints to help me along when I get stuck. "Dying" or getting stuck are non-issues; the game simply resets to the last safe area in the former case and the latter simply isn't possible. Much like Myst, the main appeal is getting things done and watching amazing things happen, and it's yet to disappoint so far. And for just $20 used? Best buy! (Or whatever the equivalent is here.)

Subnautica - Well, thank goodness for Creative, because otherwise I would've lasted for all of, oh, two minutes before running away screaming. This one's going to be a long haul, no question about it. The biggest problem is that, much like Minecraft, the wildlife is everywhere and you have no control over what they do, but whereas the worst a stray cow or pig could do was get in the way of your cart path, the fauna in Subnautica do not like you and will mess you up every chance they get. I called up a submersible craft and got out of it for a few seconds, and it was unceremoniously yoinked. This is the single most hostile environment I've ever seen in any game, and needless to say I'm going to be taking a lot of guidance from whatever wiki I can find. There is potential here, I can see it, but so far it's been a real baptism of fire and I'm going to have to take it slow. Am looking forward to contributing something to the thread here!

Divinity - Okay, here's what I found out. While there are a tremendous number of options, it's less a matter of having to hit the perfect combination or get walloped as different approaches to the same problem. Do you intend to fight every stubborn sentry you meet, negotiate with them, or hide in the shadows and sneak past? Do you want to learn lockpicking to get past those doors or smash your way through with brute force? I think that in time it could be managable. As for combat, Explorer Mode makes it a breeze, and thus far I've taken almost no damage from nearly every fight. Emphasis on "almost" and "nearly". You need SOME level of knowledge of the combat system, SOME skill, SOME experience. And as I'm going in completely raw, that worries me a bit. Again, what's "easy" for a 15-year combat veteran is anything but for, well, me. Will I be okay if I have some sort of healing? As for Story Mode, I haven't delved far into that yet, but it is possible to get killed. You have to really work at it, of course, and anyone with a little sense should have no trouble surviving. "A little sense" for a programmer, that is, and if it's possible to get killed by friendly fire and environmental hazards, there could be others...check that, there almost certainly are others. I really like the look of this and would hate to have to give it up because I ran up against an absolute terror or an instant-death trap that anyone could have very easily avoided. Anyone know the best place to learn about these? Main site isn't much help in this regard.

Will probably get the rest of the Atari Flashback Classics soon.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Seriously, I don't know how I possibly could've gotten such good suggestions otherwise. It feels pretty good to be back in the saddle, to remind myself that there is still fun and beauty in this hobby I've overindulged in for four decades.
  #58  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:16 AM
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I’m glad you found some games you’re having fun with.
  #59  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:32 PM
pmwgreen pmwgreen is online now
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Couple of late suggestions.

Submerged. Currently 2 dollars at the Steam store. Offer ends at the end of 02/12/2019. Descriptioin from Steam: "Submerged is a third-person combat-free game in which you explore a mysterious flooded city and discover the beauty of desolation in vast outdoor environments. You take on the role of Miku, a young girl who has brought her wounded brother to the city in their small fishing boat. Navigate the flooded city streets by boat, scale the drowned buildings, and use your telescope to scour the city for the supplies needed to save your dying sibling." Who doesn't ever die, by the way.

Journey. A classic from 2012. Another ruined world, you walk through a desert, explore the ruins of a fallen civilization, and have a transcendent experience. It had a multiplayer aspect but I suspect too few people are playing it now for it to kick in. If you are alone and in the same place as another player you will see each other. You can't talk or interfere with each other, but you can guide, simply by going ahead and waiting for them to catch up. Or be guided. It was weird.
  #60  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:49 PM
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Have you tried Skyrim Special Edition? It's a massive open world fantasy game. Combat difficulty is adjustable, there's a main story and multiple subquests/sidequests with tons of random exploring available as well.
  #61  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:34 PM
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Have you tried Skyrim Special Edition? It's a massive open world fantasy game. Combat difficulty is adjustable, there's a main story and multiple subquests/sidequests with tons of random exploring available as well.
Iím pretty sure thatís exactly the kind of game heíd hate. Very fiddly, lots of twitch-based combat, many screens, inventory management... Almost everything he said he wanted to avoid.
  #62  
Old 02-11-2019, 04:50 PM
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Iím pretty sure thatís exactly the kind of game heíd hate. Very fiddly, lots of twitch-based combat, many screens, inventory management... Almost everything he said he wanted to avoid.
I don't find it very twitchy at all. The controls are not nearly as complicated as something like WWE 2K19. There is lots of inventory management...if you want to mess with it, but it is largely skippable. Sell everything that you loot, go out hunting again. Crafting is optional...though I hear at end game, enchanting is important.
  #63  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:19 PM
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Couple of late suggestions.

Submerged. Currently 2 dollars at the Steam store. Offer ends at the end of 02/12/2019. Descriptioin from Steam: "Submerged is a third-person combat-free game in which you explore a mysterious flooded city and discover the beauty of desolation in vast outdoor environments. You take on the role of Miku, a young girl who has brought her wounded brother to the city in their small fishing boat. Navigate the flooded city streets by boat, scale the drowned buildings, and use your telescope to scour the city for the supplies needed to save your dying sibling." Who doesn't ever die, by the way.
Just bought this lol I figure for $2 it's worth a try. If you liked this, I'd also recommend The Flame in the Flood. Another great survival, exploration, boat game

On a similar note, if we're talking Steam games that are 'combat free', I've got to recommend The Talos Principle, The Witness and the ever classic Portal (and Portal 2). They're all very similar games that are focused on exploring and puzzle solving. Though Portal is more story driven but very entertaining. If you enjoy Rime, you'll really enjoy these.

And
  #64  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:32 PM
xizor xizor is offline
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I'll throw out a recommendation for Ratchet & Clank. It's got a bit of humor, it's easy to learn and play, and there's no real penalty for dying. If you have a PS2, those games are the best, but the PS4 game is good too.
I will second this recommendation.
Plus, the games have the added bonus of being able to explore the levels in sandbox mode once you have completed the main objectives. I love exploring at my own pace and finding all the hidden items and getting 100% game completion.
  #65  
Old 02-11-2019, 06:07 PM
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I’m pretty sure that’s exactly the kind of game he’d hate. Very fiddly, lots of twitch-based combat, many screens, inventory management... Almost everything he said he wanted to avoid.
This gets into why I brought up the third Mafia: inventory management there is almost non-existent. Weapons are upgradeable but as an entire class (e.g.: pistols, rifles, etc.) rather than individually. Combat almost entirely depends on stealth and tricks rather than reflexes, especially after throwing knives are obtained.

Always go after any sentries first so they can't call in reinforcements. And drop mines at entrances just in case...

Last edited by Skywatcher; 02-11-2019 at 06:09 PM.
  #66  
Old 02-18-2019, 11:18 PM
DKW DKW is offline
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All right...this will (probably) be the last one.

Rime is in the trash. No, it didn't take long. It's the part with the big flying terror that snatches you after a few seconds if you're not under cover and kicks you back to the last save point. Now, I could go into a very long tirade about the utter insanity of putting such a high-danger, high-stress hazard where you have SECONDS, SECONDS I TELL YOU to react or die in a game that seemed to be about exploration and wonder up to that point (the time-of-day puzzles were ingenious), but I'm not really up to it. So I'll just point out that you don't even get any indication of where go at that point. You hide beneath the panels, then you're jumping across then, then at some point there's a panel that doesn't go down, and...what? What? WHAAAAAT?? No idea how to proceed, and then at some point I get snagged again, start all over. Geez. Now, it wasn't perfect up to this point; there were definitely things that I think were carelessly designed or counterintuitive (the sun-moon puzzle, for one), but at no point did I find it horribly broken. Until that flying monstrosity showed up, and I'm pretty sure the programmers lost their minds and ramped that part up to a zillion. I said "pretty sure" because for all I could know it could be a bug, or a glitch, or something that didn't render properly, or a big hint that got wrecked for whatever reason.

And that's what made my search for a decent PS4 game so hard. I don't truck in "yeah but". If it has one outrageously difficult, or horribly designed, or ridiculously counterintuitive part, I can't tolerate it. Hell, I tossed Assassin's Creed Revelations due to those execrable first-person jumping levels, and they're not even part of the main game. I'm aware that console players (aside from "filthy casuals" like the Forza 7 buffoons) have reached an insanely high level (just looking at what the best Tekken or Guitar Hero players have accomplished is jaw-dropping), and it's only gotten higher now that there's such a big emphasis on community and multiplayer. They're made of iron. They can take everything and ask for seconds. I can't. There are just too many other entertainment options, too many things demanding my time, too many other pursuits that'd be improving my health, to waste another minute on Demon Bird Food Simulator.

Quick recap of what I still got:

Carnival Games: Meh. If I want to mash buttons and toss stuff wildly all over the place for three minutes, there are worse things. Trophies range from ridiculous to insane. Really umimpressive for an 8th-gen console, and definitely not worth $40 new. I remember things like Pac-Man Fever and the Wii omnibus games that didn't have as crisp graphics but still managed to be WAY more fun.

Atari Classics: Somewhat less meh. Still needs a dial controller. They do still hold up, though I'm glad I get that many. At $20 definitely a better deal than Carnival Games.

Divinity Original Sin: Okay, here's the thing. If it's not possible to take damage (and I can't imagine any company being so bold these days), the huge number of options and limited resources are minor concerns. Go forth and kick butt and don't worry about your toys. But because it is possible to take damage, things like weapons, armor, healing, supplies, protection etc. now make all the difference in the word. So far I've nixed three games on the first game because I found out I was horribly lacking in some department, and I've barely made any headway at all in the second. And I'm playing on the easiest easiest difficulty every single time. (Storyteller, you were completely wrong about not being able to die in 2 in Story Mode, and I'm not happy that I spent $53 to find that out.) Also, I've found that if you lack certain items or skills, you can get really screwed in a hurry (lockpicking and a good solid bow, in particular). Maybe I'll find something good here, but these are not games I'm convinced to spend any great amount of time on.

Brothers - A Tale of Two Sons: Never mentioned this before, mainly because there's not a whole lot to talk about. This is a good one. Not fantastic, and the lead designer made it clear that he's more a movie person than a game person, but it works great for what it is, a simple, mostly linear journey where the best part is being able to find new places and see wonderful sights. The dual mechanic was a great concept and is something I'd like to see in more games. Much like the Peanuts game, not a whole lot of reason to keep going after you've accomplished everything, but I got it for like $7, so it's no biggie. No regrets!

Little Big Planet 3: Got this one yesterday, and thus far it's been...as expected. The slip-'n-slide is largely gone, but midair control is still syrupy, making it really hard to get some items. Still, I'm not hellbent on getting everything, so whatever. This one has the potential to be pretty good, and if it does go off a cliff at some point, you don't need to hear it from me.

Subnautica: Okay, here's where I'm at with this. This has what I call the Minecraft Problem. It's possible to be safe and get things done provided you stay safely within the cocoon of Creative. You always have whatever you need and even the most powerful enemies are no threat. But if you want to do anything meaningful, if you want to get into the story, get things done, find out why you're in this watery hellhole in the first place, that means stepping outside the cocoon, taking risks, learning tasks to do things that came so easily before. You'll recall what happened when I did that in Minecraft, right? A witch threw a potion at me, and I had to either get rid of the game or spend some quality time in the nearest ICU. I mean, I get that there's not much point to pay $30 for a game that you can literally win inside of a minute, but how far outside the cocoon am I really willing to step? Even the "Casual" (ha!) level requires oxygen, and lest you forget, the entire surface of the planet is covered with water. Also, I really, really do not like that there's no effective weapon for taking down big enemies. I'll stay in Creative for now, but I'm going to be fighting the temptation to say the heck with it, rocket off, and never return for a long time.

Seriously, thanks for all your suggestions, and this has been an interesting discussion. I don't like that I've squandered so much money on this hobby over the years, but I'm not going to be resentful over it...heck, probably would've blown it on comic books or jackets or model airplanes or car accessories. I got a PS4 library that should last for a while, and that's good for what it is.
  #67  
Old Yesterday, 10:58 AM
storyteller0910 storyteller0910 is offline
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Divinity Original Sin: Okay, here's the thing. If it's not possible to take damage (and I can't imagine any company being so bold these days), the huge number of options and limited resources are minor concerns. Go forth and kick butt and don't worry about your toys. But because it is possible to take damage, things like weapons, armor, healing, supplies, protection etc. now make all the difference in the word. So far I've nixed three games on the first game because I found out I was horribly lacking in some department, and I've barely made any headway at all in the second. And I'm playing on the easiest easiest difficulty every single time. (Storyteller, you were completely wrong about not being able to die in 2 in Story Mode, and I'm not happy that I spent $53 to find that out.) Also, I've found that if you lack certain items or skills, you can get really screwed in a hurry (lockpicking and a good solid bow, in particular). Maybe I'll find something good here, but these are not games I'm convinced to spend any great amount of time on.
Well, regarding the Story mode thing, I'm puzzled, because in story mode as I have experienced it you can't die - your characters can be "killed" but you have unlimited resurrection ability so you can just keep rolling no matter what happens.

For the rest, your experience is your experience; I'm sorry you haven't enjoyed it. I'm playing on the hardest difficulty level with no lockpicking at all, and so far I haven't encountered a single significant roadblock; obviously there are a few chests I can't open but I haven't had a problem advancing. Is there a particular place you've found lockpicking to be mandatory? Where were you having trouble advancing difficulty-wise? I'm genuinely curious, but feel free to ignore me if you don't care to spend any more time on this.

Last edited by storyteller0910; Yesterday at 10:59 AM.
  #68  
Old Yesterday, 04:42 PM
Airk Airk is offline
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My rebate offer for Trails of Cold Steel still stands. If you can find a way to not enjoy that game, I will buy it off you.

But yeah, it doesn't release on PS4 for another three weeks.

Last edited by Airk; Yesterday at 04:42 PM.
  #69  
Old Today, 01:32 AM
pmwgreen pmwgreen is online now
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I wish you'd stuck with Rime all the way through. I would have liked to hear what you thought of the ending. Well anyway, if the "death from above" bit in Rime is a problem, then it's a problem and you aren't going to want to try Unfinished Swan either, or Journey. Or a lot of games. Game designers just love that whole terror-dactyl vibe. I'd still recommend Submerged as it is simply tootling around a ruined city. Also, have you seen Gorogoa?
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