Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:33 PM
DCnDC's Avatar
DCnDC DCnDC is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Dueling Grounds
Posts: 11,536
Frank Robinson, 83

Frank Robinson, NL Rookie of the Year 1956, NL and AL MVP ('61 and '66, respectively), Triple Crown winner (1966), 14-time All-Star, 2 time World Series champion, AL Manager of the year (1989), Gold Glove winner (1958), among other achievements and honors, has died. He was 83.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/b...er-dies-at-83/
  #2  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:42 PM
nightshadea nightshadea is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 4,305
is he in the hall yet? wow one of the last legends from the golden age of baseball ...
  #3  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:47 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,253
R.I.P. Frank Robinson

Frank Robinson, the Hall of Fame outfielder and manager for the Reds, Orioles, Indians, Angels, Dodgers, Giants, and Expos/Nationals, has died of bone cancer at the age of 83. You can read about it here.

Robinson was NL Rookie of the Year in 1956. He is the only player to win the MVP award in both the National and American Leagues. He first won it with the Reds in 1961. That team traded him to the Orioles prior to the 1966 season for Milt Pappas, Jack Baldschun and Dick Simpson, one of the worst trades ever. That year, Robinson won the triple crown, his second MVP award, and was MVP of the World Series.

Robinson became the first black manager in MLB history in 1975 for the Cleveland Indians. He was still a player at the time. Later, after he retired as a player, he managed the Giants, Orioles, and Expos/Nationals.

For some reason, Robinson's name doesn't come up very often in discussions of the all-time greats. Maybe it's because he played at the same time as guys like Mays and Aaron. I think Robinson is an upper-echelon Hall-of-Famer, and is at least as important for breaking the color barrier for managers as he is for his on-field accomplishments.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #4  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:47 PM
DCnDC's Avatar
DCnDC DCnDC is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Dueling Grounds
Posts: 11,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
is he in the hall yet? wow one of the last legends from the golden age of baseball ...
I would seriously be doubting the legitimacy of the MLB HOF if he wasn't.

1982, first ballot, with 89.2% of the vote.


.

Last edited by DCnDC; 02-07-2019 at 03:49 PM.
  #5  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:48 PM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 13,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
is he in the hall yet?
Hell, yes. He and Hank Aaron were both elected in 1982, both of them in their first year of eligibility.

https://baseballhall.org/discover-mo...n-elected-1982
  #6  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:53 PM
nightshadea nightshadea is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 4,305
thought so but wasn't sure …
  #7  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:37 PM
betterlifethroughchemistry betterlifethroughchemistry is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post
I would seriously be doubting the legitimacy of the MLB HOF if he wasn't.

1982, first ballot, with 89.2% of the vote.


.
Gotta wonder what the other 10.8% were thinking...

Grew up in Charm City, one of my earliest memories was the 1966 World Series, I was 4, my father was out running around the neighborhood cheering, I distinctly remember some guys in a convertible with big plastic orange horns driving slowly down the street blowing the horns...

I actually met him twice, once in the owner's box at OPACY...

RIP, Frank...Great story here...
  #8  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:06 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 17,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post
I would seriously be doubting the legitimacy of the MLB HOF if he wasn't.

1982, first ballot, with 89.2% of the vote.


.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Hell, yes. He and Hank Aaron were both elected in 1982, both of them in their first year of eligibility.

https://baseballhall.org/discover-mo...n-elected-1982
I don't understand how both of those guys didn't get unanimous votes. It took until this year for that to happen? After well over a century of baseball?
  #9  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:17 PM
DCnDC's Avatar
DCnDC DCnDC is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Dueling Grounds
Posts: 11,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by betterlifethroughchemistry View Post
Gotta wonder what the other 10.8% were thinking...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
I don't understand how both of those guys didn't get unanimous votes.
I'm thinking either Frank rubbed some of the writers the wrong way (he was certainly capable of that), or, racism. By just the numbers he's as much a no-brainer HOFer as anyone.
  #10  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:45 PM
kunilou's Avatar
kunilou kunilou is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 24,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil View Post
I don't understand how both of those guys didn't get unanimous votes. It took until this year for that to happen? After well over a century of baseball?
There were a handful of old-timey sportswriters who didn't think anyone deserved to get into the HOF on the first ballot. Racism might have played a part, but Joe DiMaggio, Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, and Sandy Koufax all got into the HOF with a lower percentage of the vote than Robinson.
  #11  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:48 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,253
There used to be sportswriters who wouldn't vote for a player in his first year of HOF eligibility no matter how good he was. I always thought of it as a stupid display of power. This year Mariano Rivera was selected by 100% of the voters in his first year of eligibility. With this precedent, I hope we will no longer see guys like Mays, Aaron, and Robinson get less than 100% just because some small group of people think they should have to wait an extra year.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #12  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:23 PM
FoieGrasIsEvil's Avatar
FoieGrasIsEvil FoieGrasIsEvil is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Land of Cheese Coneys
Posts: 17,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lichtman View Post
There used to be sportswriters who wouldn't vote for a player in his first year of HOF eligibility no matter how good he was. I always thought of it as a stupid display of power. This year Mariano Rivera was selected by 100% of the voters in his first year of eligibility. With this precedent, I hope we will no longer see guys like Mays, Aaron, and Robinson get less than 100% just because some small group of people think they should have to wait an extra year.
Hear, hear! That's a stupid AS FUCK unwritten baseball rule...as so many of them are.
  #13  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:26 PM
The Stainless Steel Rat's Avatar
The Stainless Steel Rat The Stainless Steel Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Close to the Saturn V
Posts: 10,220
I was at the old Cleveland Stadium when Frank Robinson debuted as Player-Manager of the Indians. I was with a bunch of guys from College and we were a bit late and our seats were in the upper deck. We were running up the ramp to our seats when we heard the crack of a bat and the cheering of the crowd. I made it just in time to see the ball disappear over the fence, Frank Robinson had homered at his first at-bat as player-manager. You could look it up.

Goodbye Frank...ya done good.
  #14  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:34 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 8,056
I grew up when Robinson was a manager but gradually learned about what a great player he was over the years. Sad day for the game.
  #15  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:45 AM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 13,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
There were a handful of old-timey sportswriters who didn't think anyone deserved to get into the HOF on the first ballot. Racism might have played a part, but Joe DiMaggio, Al Kaline, Mickey Mantle, and Sandy Koufax all got into the HOF with a lower percentage of the vote than Robinson.
Exactly. It's always been a ridiculous thing, and clearly a cranky-old-man power trip on the part of a subset of the BBWAA voters. I mean, Babe F***ing Ruth only got 95.1% of the vote when he was elected (in the initial group).
  #16  
Old 02-08-2019, 02:31 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,904
The AP has a collection of quotes from people who knew him; every single one calls him a friend. He was one of a handful of players who can lay legitimate claim to the title of Greatest of All-Time, he was a fine manager and executive, but people remember him most for being their friend. That totally fucking rocks.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-08-2019 at 02:31 AM.
  #17  
Old 02-08-2019, 02:59 AM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,253
My favorite Frank Robinson quote:

Quote:
Close don't count in baseball. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
  #18  
Old 02-08-2019, 10:44 AM
madsircool madsircool is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,454
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post
I'm thinking either Frank rubbed some of the writers the wrong way (he was certainly capable of that), or, racism. By just the numbers he's as much a no-brainer HOFer as anyone.
Lets not get carried away. He was great but he isn't at the same level as Ruth, Ted Williams or Gehrig.
  #19  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:20 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 24,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
Lets not get carried away. He was great but he isn't at the same level as Ruth, Ted Williams or Gehrig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Former Baltimore Orioles teammate and Hall of Fame third baseman Brooks Robinson
As a player, I put Frank in a class with Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Mickey Mantle. He was the best player I ever played with.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-08-2019 at 11:21 AM.
  #20  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:47 AM
Wilson Wilson is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Metro NYC
Posts: 1,432
Frank Robinson is probably the most underrated great player of baseball history.
Was he the best ever? No, of course not. But the number of other players that were clearly better is very short - Aaron, Mays, Williams for sure; Musial as well; probably Ruth and Walter Johnson.

A lot of it depends how much you value peak vs longevity (i.e. Mantle); how big a penalty you give to players whose career was before integration (Cobb, Gehrig,etc); and how much you discount known/suspected steroid users (Bonds/Clemens).

Add in the managing career and the fairly universal respect he had and he's quite the historical figure.
  #21  
Old 02-08-2019, 01:33 PM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 13,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
Frank Robinson is probably the most underrated great player of baseball history.
Was he the best ever? No, of course not. But the number of other players that were clearly better is very short - Aaron, Mays, Williams for sure; Musial as well; probably Ruth and Walter Johnson.
For what it's worth, looking at the career rankings on Baseball Reference, they rank Robinson at #18 on career WAR among position players.

So, *the* greatest of all time? Almost undoubtedly not. On the short list of the very best of all time? Unless your personal "short list" is less than a dozen players, I think he's up there.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-08-2019 at 01:34 PM.
  #22  
Old 02-08-2019, 03:00 PM
Wilson Wilson is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Metro NYC
Posts: 1,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
For what it's worth, looking at the career rankings on Baseball Reference, they rank Robinson at #18 on career WAR among position players.

So, *the* greatest of all time? Almost undoubtedly not. On the short list of the very best of all time? Unless your personal "short list" is less than a dozen players, I think he's up there.
Yeah, I was looking at the career WAR among all players, I think he's 24th there. Between players that were really close to him, and others that you could discount for steriods or era adjustment, the players who were clearly better than Robinson are very few.

Mind that I'm not necessarily saying that an adjustment to Cobb's career value (for example) for playing in pre-integration baseball would bring his WAR/value down to Robinson's level - just that it is an argument that could be made. If you penalize Cobb 25%, his career WAR is now in Robinson's ballpark. I suspect 25% is too much, but I feel you have to make some kind of an adjustment.
  #23  
Old 02-08-2019, 03:41 PM
Blank Slate's Avatar
Blank Slate Blank Slate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
Lets not get carried away. He was great but he isn't at the same level as Ruth, Ted Williams or Gehrig.
Robinson played in an era of open competition and not the All White Baseball League. No doubt, inner circle Hall of Famer.
  #24  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:10 PM
kunilou's Avatar
kunilou kunilou is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 24,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post
I'm thinking either Frank rubbed some of the writers the wrong way (he was certainly capable of that), or, racism. By just the numbers he's as much a no-brainer HOFer as anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madsircool View Post
Lets not get carried away. He was great but he isn't at the same level as Ruth, Ted Williams or Gehrig.
madsircool I'm confused. Are you saying Robinson doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, he doesn't deserve to get in on the first time, or he doesn't deserve 100% of the vote because Ruth and Williams didn't get 100% of the vote (we'll leave Gehrig as a special case)?

BTW, after Rivera, who do you think the highest vote getters were? AFAICT they were Ken Griffey, Jr., Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Cal Ripken, George Brett, and Ty Cobb. Poor Babe Ruth had to settle for 95.1% of the vote.

Last edited by kunilou; 02-08-2019 at 09:12 PM.
  #25  
Old Today, 02:58 AM
denquixote denquixote is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,597
Robinson was obviously the first African American to have a contract to manage a big league team, but the first to actually manage the team during a game was probably Gene Baker of the Pirates. Baker was the first African American to manage a minor league team when he managed Batavia in the early 60's. The Pirates hired him as a coach in 1963 and in a game against the Dodgers that year Manager Danny Murtaugh and coach Frank Oceak were both thrown out of the game while arguing a call at first base late in the game. Murtaugh then told Baker he was the manager. This was reported in at least one California paper at the time and confirmed by Pirate players. Sadly, the Pirates lost when a relief pitcher Baker brought in gave up a walk off home run.
  #26  
Old Today, 09:41 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 40,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
BTW, after Rivera, who do you think the highest vote getters were? AFAICT they were Ken Griffey, Jr., Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Cal Ripken, George Brett, and Ty Cobb. Poor Babe Ruth had to settle for 95.1% of the vote.
Inthe earlier days of the Hall of Fame there were literally too many players to vote for. Remember, the HOF didn't start until the 1930s, at which point big league baseball was 50 years old or so. They had a hell of a backlog, and a lot of writers favored earlier players - like, 19th centiry and turn of the century guys - figuring they should start from there. The glut was such that the voting system really didn't work correctly. Joe Dimaggio didn't even get in on the first ballot. His first year on the ballot, in 1953, he only got 44% of the vote. It's not that there was any serious thought he wasn't a Hall of Famer, it's just that they were trying and failing. If you look at teh 1953 balloting it's clear they were trying to get guys in who played before DiMaggio:

Dizzy Dean 79.2 (elected)
Al Simmons 75.4 (elected)
Bill Terry 72.3
Bill Dickey 67.8
Rabbit Maranville 62.1
Dazzy Vance 56.8
Ted Lyons 52.7
Joe DiMaggio 44.3
Gabby Harnett 39.4
Chief Bender 39.4
Hank Greenberg 30.3
Joe Cronin 26.1

There are two dozen more eventual Hall of Famers BELOW Joe Cronin, guys like Red Ruffing, Tony Lazzeri, Luke Appling. They just had too many guys to vote for.

Of course there's no excuse later on. How Frank Robinson only got 89 percent is a mystery; he was one of the ten greatest outfielders in the history of the major leagues. His class (1982) was a tough one; he was up agaisnt Hank Aaron, a greater player, and some other huge stars like Marichal, Killebrew, Drysdale. Twelve eventual Hall of Famers were on the ballot in 1982 along with Aaron and Robinson. Still, he looks obviously way above all of them except for Aaron.

It's true Robinson has some betters, like Ruth, Mays, Aaron. Sure. But the line for "definitely, no doubt about it a Hall of Famer" is WAY BELOW Frank Robinson. He is clearly far ahead of any standard you can name; he is a greater player than most Hall of Famers. Passes the Keltner Test with flying colors.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #27  
Old Today, 02:11 PM
denquixote denquixote is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,597
Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Tris Speaker, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Ken Griffey Jr., Joe Di Maggio and then Frank Robinson.
  #28  
Old Today, 03:10 PM
Jeff Lichtman's Avatar
Jeff Lichtman Jeff Lichtman is offline
Head Cheese
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: El Cerrito, CA
Posts: 4,253
Where you rank Griffey and DiMaggio versus Robinson depends on how much emphasis you place on peak value versus career value. Griffey and DiMaggio were both better at their peaks. However, Griffey was injured a lot, and DiMaggio had a short career. Griffey's and DiMaggio's three best seasons were better than any of Robinson's, but starting with each player's fourth-best season Robinson outperformed the other two. Of course, DiMaggio lost three seasons in the heart of his career to military service, and without this he could have had more seasons better than Robinson.
__________________
'Tis a pity that I have no gravy to put upon Uncle Hymie.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017