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  #551  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
And now, in order:







An englishman, and...







...A Scot.
English and a woman, me. Sorry, just very, very fed up, tired, disheartened. Didn't mean to sound grumpy towards Steophan. It's just been years and years of these stupid lies coming to their obvious, destructive conclusion and then that, too, is the fault of the EU? But sorry, Steophan, I shouldn't be so grumpy about it.

Wouldn't mind being Scottish, though. Ha!

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  #552  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:35 AM
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It should always have been on the EU to explain and justify what it does, at the very least from when the referendum was announced, but really for a lot longer than that. Just as it was on the UK to fight to maintain the Union when the Scottish independence referendum happened.

But you do realize that "the EU" is not a monolithic, inscrutable, alien entity. It's a parliament. With members from each country. All you need to do to know why the EU does X is ask your delegates. Oh but wait, those delegates are all carbon copies of Nigel Farage, who keep being incredibly rude in Brussels and feed you lies when they come back. We didn't do that to you, either. You fucked that up yourselves too !


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Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see what the EU has to gain from the UK leaving, or from being so uncommunicative. Of course they could drive a stupid bus through the UK, or otherwise advertise here. It's ridiculous that they didn't.

Think it through. The core of Leave is the stupid phrase "We're sick and tired of the EU telling us what to do !". How do you think it plays if the EU funds a mass media campaign in the UK, on UK's soil, to tell people what to think or to call (some of) your politicians and (some of) your jounalists a bunch of destructive liars ?
And again, that's just not what the EU does, FFS. Respecting its members sovereignty and never interfering in their domestic politics (at least, not directly) has always been one of the core principles of the EU.
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  #553  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:40 AM
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To sift out a tiny nugget of schadenfreude from the Augean-stables' worth of horseshit that Brexit has become, I'll note that May has been given a very short deadline to get agreement from the same Parliament she just went on television and essentially accused of betraying the country. Perhaps for a retirement gift someone should give her a copy of "How to Make Friends and Influence People".
  #554  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:46 AM
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Sorry for the double post, but wanted to add this:
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As I asked before, are any Leave voters actually saying this or is this all the same sore loser talk from Remain voters?
You know that TV trope where one character is doing or about to do something really stupid and his friends and family keep pointing this out and his reaction is to lash out and shout "You're just jealous!"? This is what you're doing here. You've been given a very long and very substantive list of all the reasons why Brexit as currently planned would be a horrific disaster for the country, why it doesn't represent what people voted for and why we should avoid it, and you keep coming back with the "It's just sour grapes!" argument, which is ill-considered and deliberately ignores all the reasons you've already been given several times to demonstrate that it's not "just sour grapes".

But hey, you do you.
  #555  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:54 AM
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Wouldn't mind being Scottish, though. Ha!

Eh, I've been reliably informed that it's shite being Scottish.
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  #556  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gracer View Post
English and a woman, me. Sorry, just very, very fed up, tired, disheartened. Didn't mean to sound grumpy towards Steophan. It's just been years and years of these stupid lies coming to their obvious, destructive conclusion and then that, too, is the fault of the EU? But sorry, Steophan, I shouldn't be so grumpy about it.

Wouldn't mind being Scottish, though. Ha!

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Just a bit of UK humor. Your post was excellent. People who aren't mad as hell about this aren't paying attention.
  #557  
Old 03-22-2019, 05:56 AM
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But you do realize that "the EU" is not a monolithic, inscrutable, alien entity. It's a parliament. With members from each country. All you need to do to know why the EU does X is ask your delegates. Oh but wait, those delegates are all carbon copies of Nigel Farage, who keep being incredibly rude in Brussels and feed you lies when they come back. We didn't do that to you, either. You fucked that up yourselves too !
Part of the EU is a parliament, there are also several other secretive parts to it, 3 presidents, and god alone knows what else. I've never met anyone, British or otherwise, who actually understands how the EU works, but it's abundantly clear that the Parliament is only a small part of it - and for that matter, voted for by a minority of Europeans - 43% at the last two elections, and that includes countries with mandatory voting.

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Think it through. The core of Leave is the stupid phrase "We're sick and tired of the EU telling us what to do !". How do you think it plays if the EU funds a mass media campaign in the UK, on UK's soil, to tell people what to think or to call (some of) your politicians and (some of) your jounalists a bunch of destructive liars ?
And again, that's just not what the EU does, FFS. Respecting its members sovereignty and never interfering in their domestic politics (at least, not directly) has always been one of the core principles of the EU.
As I said previously, it could not possibly play worse than the current shitshow. I'm not saying the EU should tell people how to vote, it should tell them what it does, and how it improves people's lives. Then people can make an informed decision.

You are literally arguing against the EU giving factual information to people who live inside it. That's absurd. You want to harm the entire Union because "that's not what the EU does". Well, it should change what it does, and act to fix this fuck-up before irreperable harm is done. Of course, the UK government should be doing exactly the same thing, but it looks like that'snot happening either.
  #558  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:00 AM
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Sorry, just very, very fed up, tired, disheartened. Didn't mean to sound grumpy towards Steophan. It's just been years and years of these stupid lies coming to their obvious, destructive conclusion and then that, too, is the fault of the EU? But sorry, Steophan, I shouldn't be so grumpy about it.
I feel absolutely the same, and grumpiness is understandable. At worst, we disagree on exactly how this should be solved, but I honestly don't see an option other than leaving with no deal unless the EU does something to prevent that. Because May is surely not going to, and Parliament are not going to back her absurd plans.
  #559  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:02 AM
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People who aren't mad as hell about this aren't paying attention.
We disagree about a lot, but I fully agree with you here.
  #560  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:08 AM
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It's going to end up costing the EU far more if we leave than it would have to do such a campaign. Obviously not as much as it will cost the UK, but that's not the point. I believe that the EU is acting against its own interest by letting the UK leave without a fight to keep it.
It's a club, not an empire. You get to leave the club. You voted to leave the club. Get out of the club. You talk about it like it's a parent abandoning a child or a spouse easily agreeing to a divorce.

Would "fight to keep it" entail concessions to the UK as a member of the EU? Is it like that idea before the referendum that it wouldn't pass but it would give the UK more negotiating power as a member of the EU? The thing about threatening to walk out as a negotiating tactic is that the other party can say: "Ok" and you then have no one else to blame but yourself.

You played Russian roulette (with 3 chambers loaded out of 6) as a manipulation/negotiation tactic, you shot yourself and now you're trying to play the victim. You're not worth having as a member to the EU.

Maybe at some point, Scotland and the London metropolitan area can split off to join the EU, leaving Wales, Northern Ireland and the Rest Of England to create their own real life Fallout with Monty Python accents.

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  #561  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:11 AM
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You're not worth having as a member to the EU.
Despite everything else you've said, the threat of significant economic and political harm to the EU says otherwise. What does the EU stand to gain from us leaving that would make up for that?
  #562  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:14 AM
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As I said previously, it could not possibly play worse than the current shitshow. I'm not saying the EU should tell people how to vote, it should tell them what it does, and how it improves people's lives. Then people can make an informed decision.
But it does. There's websites, there's advertisement campaigns for multiple EU-related services, there's those big panels in construction sites saying "funded with 12m137,198.163€ from the EU's Fund For Public Construction Sites With Big Panels", there's Civics classes…

People who say "I don't know what [whichever government] does!" generally have made no effort to find out. Reminds me of so many of my clients who expect The Big Blue Database to receive them with a To-Do list, warn them every time they need to do something and have a cup of their favorite beverage ready. The EU does inform people - but people need to do such horribly difficult things as read the big panels or *gasp* connect the EU with the fact that the line they were expected to join in the airport when they went on vacation had a EU banner overhead.
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  #563  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:28 AM
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Part of the EU is a parliament, there are also several other secretive parts to it, 3 presidents, and god alone knows what else. I've never met anyone, British or otherwise, who actually understands how the EU works, but it's abundantly clear that the Parliament is only a small part of it - and for that matter, voted for by a minority of Europeans - 43% at the last two elections, and that includes countries with mandatory voting.

But *nothing* the EU does is secretive or hidden ! It's all published and in free access. And sure, often it's published in 50 kg reams of legalese, but that's where lawyers and journalists and politicians come in to dumb that down for us.
Literally no other country has a problem with that.


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As I said previously, it could not possibly play worse than the current shitshow. I'm not saying the EU should tell people how to vote, it should tell them what it does, and how it improves people's lives. Then people can make an informed decision.

It does that, you've been shown the website. It can't force people to read it. And we've pleaded with you not to go. We've all told you you were being bloody idjits. The Dutch even made a boy band for you guys, and that was embarrassing to watch. As the Franco-Italian proverb goes, it's no use whistling to get the donkey to piss. At this point the only people in the UK who are ignorant about what the EU does or why it's better to be in than out or how catastrophic Brexit will be for the UK are being wilfully ignorant. The EU can do a lot, but even it can't fix stupid.


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You are literally arguing against the EU giving factual information to people who live inside it. That's absurd. You want to harm the entire Union because "that's not what the EU does". Well, it should change what it does, and act to fix this fuck-up before irreperable harm is done. Of course, the UK government should be doing exactly the same thing, but it looks like that'snot happening either.

Hell if it were up to me we'd dissolve national governments altogether, become a real federation. But we've agreed that the EU shouldn't infringe on the sovereignty of its member states - and the UK was the most hardline about this historically. You can't have it both ways.
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  #564  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:34 AM
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The election process itself takes a minimum of six weeks, plus time to install the new government. Add on to that the time taken to call the election, which requires two votes two weeks apart, and that adds up to more than 8 weeks. It's no longer possible, whereas with the 3 month extension it would have been. And there is as yet no formal offer of a longer extension.
Not exactly as I understand it. The deadlines are exclusive of each other:

1. Before March 29, the UK has a vote and the WA is rejected again. Now the UK has until April 22 to come up with and present a plan. I don't see that they actually have to fully implement the plan, just *have* one. So, the UK says that the plan is (election, referendum, sequence of defining votes, whatever, etc.). A new timetable is agreed upon that will have to deal with the EU elections, but that's not un-overcome-able if both sides are willing to act in good faith.

2. Before March 29, the UK has a vote and the WA is somehow accepted this time. The new Brexit date becomes May 22 with the intervening period being used to prep for it.

At least that's the way I read it, but I could be wrong from this side of the Pond.
  #565  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:47 AM
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I'm not saying the EU should tell people how to vote, it should tell them what it does, and how it improves people's lives. Then people can make an informed decision.
It was actually the responsibility of the Remain campaign - nobody else - to give a positive and upbeat vision of the EU. They are the ones who failed.

If you only give the voters a choice between 'rainbows and unicorns' and 'more of the same old story'... half of them will vote for the rainbows and unicorns.

(A similar thing happened with Donald Trump.)

The real problem is that people have mistakenly been blaming the EU for the failings of neoliberalism, as implemented by both Tories and Labour (under Blair).
  #566  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:50 AM
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And there is as yet no formal offer of a longer extension.

Had the EU insisted on a longer extension, at least until the end of the year, it would be possible to have an election and a referendum, and even 3 months would have allowed one of those.
As I understand it, it would be on offer if the government, or Parliament, comes up with a concrete plan of alternative action with a timetable attached, by 12 April. The point is, it has to be a positive plan sufficient to justify a longer extension. But if the insistence is "Not this deal, but we can't agree on any other proposal", then there's no point prolonging the existing agony or deferring the inevitable agony of crashing out without a deal. There's no reason why anyone should expect 27 other countries to go out of their way to divine what might be acceptable to all parties in this country.
  #567  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:52 AM
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Unless the people involved are children or others of limited agency, I refuse to accept "It's your fault for not stopping me from doing something stupid, dangerous and/or destructive" as a valid argument.
  #568  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:53 AM
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Part of the EU is a parliament, there are also several other secretive parts to it, 3 presidents, and god alone knows what else.
...No. Nothing about the EU is secretive. If you're having trouble understanding it, that's because you haven't taken the time to learn about it. No shame in that, neither have I (I slept through that class in high school). I also don't know what a "shadow minister" is, but I'm not about to pretend that they're shadowy illuminati agents because of that.

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I'm not saying the EU should tell people how to vote, it should tell them what it does, and how it improves people's lives. Then people can make an informed decision.
I mean, they very literally do? gracer just detailed some of the ways, and others have pointed out that the EU leads a blog going into detail on the misinformation spreading in Britain. What would you propose they do beyond that? Run an ad campaign in the Daily Mail or something? I'm sure that'd go over real well.

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You are literally arguing against the EU giving factual information to people who live inside it.
No, he really isn't.
  #569  
Old 03-22-2019, 06:59 AM
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Despite everything else you've said, the threat of significant economic and political harm to the EU says otherwise. What does the EU stand to gain from us leaving that would make up for that?
The same thing some country clubs gain by not allowing children.

You fucked up and now you're trying to blame others. Others won't be able to rescue you from yourselves because, as long as you have that attitude, you'll always find a way to fuck it up.
  #570  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:10 AM
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I also don't know what a "shadow minister" is

They're a subtype of undead, I'm pretty sure. Like 90% sure.
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  #571  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:20 AM
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The same thing some country clubs gain by not allowing children.

You fucked up and now you're trying to blame others. Others won't be able to rescue you from yourselves because, as long as you have that attitude, you'll always find a way to fuck it up.
So, you want to harm yourself to teach us a lesson? OK. Stupid, but you have the right to. It doesn't demonstrate the claimed maturity, though.


Look, we all know the current UK Government, and many of the leaders in the main opposition party, want to harm the UK for spurious ideological reasons. That doesn't justify the EU harming itself for similar reasons. Yes, I want them to do what they can to halt Brexit for ultimately selfish reasons, but it's in everyone's interest that Brexit is halted. Silly arguments about whether it's someone's proper place to do that, or whether the EU did technically have all the relevant information on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard" are utterly irrelevant. The governments of the UK and EU are failing in their duties at the moment, and one of them needs to step up and fix things.

Chucking out 15% of your economy because you think we're children is beyond petty.
  #572  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:27 AM
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Unless the people involved are children or others of limited agency, I refuse to accept "It's your fault for not stopping me from doing something stupid, dangerous and/or destructive" as a valid argument.
The EU is refusing to take action to prevent harm to itself. That is absolutely its responsibility. I'm frankly astonished by how many people here seem to think that's acceptable, as long as Britain suffers more. That's the same "logic" that lead people to vote for Trump.
  #573  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:28 AM
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As I understand it, it would be on offer if the government, or Parliament, comes up with a concrete plan of alternative action with a timetable attached, by 12 April. The point is, it has to be a positive plan sufficient to justify a longer extension. But if the insistence is "Not this deal, but we can't agree on any other proposal", then there's no point prolonging the existing agony or deferring the inevitable agony of crashing out without a deal.
Except that it's not "inevitable". The deadline we set for "crashing out without a deal" is entirely of our own making and can be revoked unilaterally. We just don't want to, for political reasons.
  #574  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:57 AM
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The EU is refusing to take action to prevent harm to itself. That is absolutely its responsibility.
What action do you want them to take? Any actions to force a deal would strengthen the Leave side. They've done all they can to accommodate our indecisiveness, while unofficially suggesting what we could do to improve the situation (e.g. a 21-month extension that was mentioned). Short of annexing the UK they have no other options.

This entire situation is of our own making, and frankly I think it's rather childish of you to blame the EU for not stopping us.
  #575  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:04 AM
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Chucking out 15% of your economy because you think we're children is beyond petty
You seem to think of the EU as an empire. It's not. It's a club. If I'm a member of a club and another member who has 15% of our aggregate wealth leaves, it doesn't take 15% of my wealth away.


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Yes, I want them to do what they can to halt Brexit for ultimately selfish reasons, but it's in everyone's interest that Brexit is halted.
The other members of the EU know that if they give in to manipulative threats to leave by giving the UK everything it asks for, the UK will keep pulling that trick again and again. Don't you English types have a saying that goes: "Pay the Danegeld and you'll never be rid of the Dane."

Even if the EU agreed to give the UK whatever it wants, the UK, even the Tory party, wouldn't be able to agree on what it wants. It's like negotiating with someone who's senile.

It's not in the interest of the EU to have a member like the UK, not matter how big its economy. There are things which are more important than money. Perhaps this is the part you're struggling with. You think that if the UK has a lot of money, others will put up with it and that it only has to throw a tantrum and threaten to leave and takes its marbles for others to get scared and treat it as special, a first among equals. The EU is fine with not having that kind as a member.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 03-22-2019 at 08:05 AM.
  #576  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:09 AM
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They're a subtype of undead, I'm pretty sure. Like 90% sure.
Clerics, I think. Some sort of undead clerics.
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  #577  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:39 AM
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You seem to think of the EU as an empire. It's not. It's a club. If I'm a member of a club and another member who has 15% of our aggregate wealth leaves, it doesn't take 15% of my wealth away.
The UK leaving will make the EU economically and politically weaker, no one apart from you seems to doubt that. The EU began as an economic union, and that's still it's main point.

Quote:
The other members of the EU know that if they give in to manipulative threats to leave by giving the UK everything it asks for, the UK will keep pulling that trick again and again. Don't you English types have a saying that goes: "Pay the Danegeld and you'll never be rid of the Dane."
I think I know one other person who would understand that saying, most people here are not living in the dark ages. And no one is expecting to be given whatever we want, except insofar as what most of us want is to remain in the EU.

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Even if the EU agreed to give the UK whatever it wants, the UK, even the Tory party, wouldn't be able to agree on what it wants. It's like negotiating with someone who's senile.
Senile AND childish, that's quite a combination.

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It's not in the interest of the EU to have a member like the UK, not matter how big its economy. There are things which are more important than money. Perhaps this is the part you're struggling with. You think that if the UK has a lot of money, others will put up with it and that it only has to throw a tantrum and threaten to leave and takes its marbles for others to get scared and treat it as special, a first among equals. The EU is fine with not having that kind as a member.
A first among equals? What a ridiculous idea. The EU, specifically France and Germany, has always treated the UK as a second class member of the club, and frankly that's suited us. Literally all that's been asked for is a 3 month extension to get things in order, and that was refused for no good reason. The EU will continue to function just fine if the UK doesn't hold elections at exactly the appointed time.

Everyone knows the EU will not provide a deal that makes it better for us to be out than in, and no one with any clue expected otherwise. Unfortunately, they were unwilling to make that official before Article 50 was triggered, again for no fucking reason, and now are unwilling to provide the time necessary to sort the mess out.

The EU will not be "fine" without the UK, it will be significantly weaker, poorer and less influential. Not by as much as the Uk will be, in terms of influence we will be going back to the dark ages... But that doesn't justify the EU's actions. They have chosen not to grant the 3 month extension, and by doing so harmed themselves. I'm sure Ireland and Spain will be delighted with the hard borders. Hopefully they can look over the new fences and be comforted that we have it worse.
  #578  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:44 AM
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The plan the EU decided on last night is excellent. It reduces the chance of no deal, and gives the best opportunity for a reasonable outcome.

* If Parliament accepts May's WA by March 29, then Britain leaves on May 22. Highly unlikely, but a reasonable outcome.
* If Parliament rejects the WA, then they have a new deadline of April 12 to come up with something else.
- If they do, then there will be a further long extension and the UK will take part in EU elections. And presumably May will be replaced.
- If they still can't come up with anything else, then there is nothing anyone can do, and there will be a no deal exit on April 12. There's no point in delaying it.
But the chance of no deal is reduced, while still keeping the pressure on Parliament to come up with something else. It also puts a spoke in the wheel of May's plan of forcing a choice between her WA and no deal, and avoids accusations of undue interference by the EU.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 03-22-2019 at 08:47 AM.
  #579  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:44 AM
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What action do you want them to take? Any actions to force a deal would strengthen the Leave side. They've done all they can to accommodate our indecisiveness, while unofficially suggesting what we could do to improve the situation (e.g. a 21-month extension that was mentioned). Short of annexing the UK they have no other options.
They could have granted the 3 month extension. It was petty of them not to. They could have officially said that only a 21 month extension was on offer, rather than the clandestine, unofficial stuff that'salways been a problem with them.

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This entire situation is of our own making, and frankly I think it's rather childish of you to blame the EU for not stopping us.
It's childish of our government to do, well, everything they've done for the last few years, and it's childish of the EU to grant an extension that is not fit for the purpose. I'm clutching at straws hoping for an end to this ridiculous situation that will make things worse for all concerned. The EU has a duty to all the people who live in it to do whatever they can to stop Brexit, and it is failing. Just as the UK government has failed.
  #580  
Old 03-22-2019, 08:48 AM
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The plan the EU decided on last night is excellent. It reduces the chance of no deal, and gives the best opportunity for a reasonable outcome.
No, it's all but guaranteed no deal. There is no acceptable deal on the table, no opportinity to negotiate an acceptable one (not that one is likely possible that's acceptable to both sides), and no time for an election or referendum.

I suppose it's possible Parliament will blink and accept the deal, but there's now no chance of reversing Brexit. Which fucks over everyone.
  #581  
Old 03-22-2019, 09:10 AM
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There is no acceptable deal on the table, no opportinity to negotiate an acceptable one (not that one is likely possible that's acceptable to both sides), and no time for an election or referendum.
I think you're misunderstanding the situation. If Parliament says 'we want another referendum' or 'we want a general election', or we want some other deal like Norway+, or whatever - then there will automatically be a long extension at least until the end of the year, or even much longer, in order to do that.

They just have to decide what they want by April 12, then ample time will be given to actually do it.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 03-22-2019 at 09:12 AM.
  #582  
Old 03-22-2019, 09:25 AM
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They could have granted the 3 month extension. It was petty of them not to.
To what end? If Parliament doesn't approve the deal on another vote, where's the government's alternative? She couldn't provide any answer to that, so what could she do in three months that she hasn't done since November without success?

QUOTE=Steophan;21551258]They could have officially said that only a 21 month extension was on offer, rather than the clandestine, unofficial stuff that'salways been a problem with them.
[/QUOTE]

Again,to what end if there is no plan for what to do in that time? They have all said repeatedly that it's down to our government and Parliament to come up with answers to the problem they have created for themselves. The answer they proposed to the EU is now negotiated into an agreement neither leavers nor remainders particularly like: so once again, it's down to the government and Parliament to come up with an alternative: extra time would be available, but only for a positive plan with a clear timetable towards a resolution. Why should the 27 have to come up with it? It's a problem we made for ourselves.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:36 AM
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In effect the EU have said, "You have a week to deal with May's plan yet again. If you vote it down, then you have a further two weeks to vote for something else. If there's nothing you can agree on, if you simply can't make up your mind what it is you want, then nobody can help you and you must exit with no deal on April 12. But if you vote in favour of something, we will give you the time to do it."

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 03-22-2019 at 09:37 AM.
  #584  
Old 03-22-2019, 09:39 AM
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It wasn't remotely petty of the EU not to give the UK three more months to faff around ineffectually while the markets and economics suffer from yet more uncertainty-driven turmoil. They've indulged the UK long enough and are now forcing it to make up its fucking mind about what it wants, because the current situation is actively causing harm.
  #585  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:02 AM
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And no one is expecting to be given whatever we want, except insofar as what most of us want is to remain in the EU.

Then how about you fucking do that ?


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A first among equals? What a ridiculous idea. The EU, specifically France and Germany, has always treated the UK as a second class member of the club, and frankly that's suited us.
Are you joking ?


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Literally all that's been asked for is a 3 month extension to get things in order, and that was refused for no good reason.
Plenty of reasons have been given. We're tired of your wasting our time. You could end this at any time but don't. We don't want you to influence our elections if you're not going to stay (and you've amply demonstrated that you deliberately want to make a pig's breakfast of the whole institution anyway). This continued incertitude is causing economic chaos. All of which are rational, understandable reasons. Your continued insistence that "they're petty because they won't save us from ourselves !" is ridiculous. You're not children, despite all appearances to the contrary.


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Everyone knows the EU will not provide a deal that makes it better for us to be out than in, and no one with any clue expected otherwise. Unfortunately, they were unwilling to make that official before Article 50 was triggered, again for no fucking reason, and now are unwilling to provide the time necessary to sort the mess out.
You. Had. Two. Years. But please, we beg you, DO tell us how much time you need to sort this mess out. "I don't know, just not yet !" is simply unacceptable. Set objectives, milestones, deadlines, come up with anything even vaguely actionable. Right now, and two years in, you're still at the "set objectives" part. And you're whinging that we won't hold you by the hand every step of the way ?! The hell is wrong with you ?


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The EU will not be "fine" without the UK, it will be significantly weaker, poorer and less influential. Not by as much as the Uk will be, in terms of influence we will be going back to the dark ages... But that doesn't justify the EU's actions. They have chosen not to grant the 3 month extension, and by doing so harmed themselves. I'm sure Ireland and Spain will be delighted with the hard borders. Hopefully they can look over the new fences and be comforted that we have it worse.
I'm still not understanding how, exactly, it's our fault you're reckless idiots.
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  #586  
Old 03-22-2019, 10:32 AM
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They could have granted the 3 month extension. It was petty of them not to. They could have officially said that only a 21 month extension was on offer, rather than the clandestine, unofficial stuff that'salways been a problem with them.
What do you think we could do in 3 months that we haven't done in 3 years? If we sort something out in the next couple of weeks the EU will give us a further extension, but there's no reason for us to be given more time if we don't make a decision. Otherwise we'll be "leaving" for the next decade or more, and as recent news has shown uncertainty is worse than any deal we could make.

The 21-month option was suggested by the EU, and turned down by our Government before any official offer could be made. The EU have tried to help at every stage of the process, much more than they needed to, but due to our Tory government they've been ignored or blocked the whole way.

I get that you're angry, but direct your anger at those that caused the problem, not those that our doing all they can to help.

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No, it's all but guaranteed no deal. There is no acceptable deal on the table, no opportinity to negotiate an acceptable one (not that one is likely possible that's acceptable to both sides), and no time for an election or referendum.

I suppose it's possible Parliament will blink and accept the deal, but there's now no chance of reversing Brexit. Which fucks over everyone.
We're in the same position we were yesterday. All options are possible *including Remain), but *we* have to make a decision. It's not for the EU to do this for us.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:36 PM
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An englishman, and...

Okay, enough Mister Nice Guy. See here: http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwGZinTeodc. For the avoidance of doubt, you BPC are the clueless American played by James Gandolfini.

Sandwich
  #588  
Old 03-22-2019, 12:43 PM
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Okay, enough Mister Nice Guy. See here: http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwGZinTeodc. For the avoidance of doubt, you BPC are the clueless American played by James Gandolfini.

Sandwich
Okay, clueless I'll accept, but referring to me by the country of my birth is going too far.


  #589  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:04 PM
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I'm still not understanding how, exactly, it's our fault you're reckless idiots.
It's not. It's your fault that you are petty idiots. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

What you continually fail to grasp is the Brexit is the worst option, worse obviously than remaining in the EU, but also worse than another 2 years of uncertainty. Uncertainty is better than the certainty of something shit.

The EU should seek as long a delay as is necessary to allow for Brexit to be cancelled, so as not to cause harm to themselves. They gain nothing, and lose a lot, by helping the UK to leave with no deal.

But for everyone who thinks there should be no more extensions, looks like Varadkar is on your side and you'll get your wish. There will be a no-deal exit on April 12th unless someone persuades May to revoke Article 50, and I think we all know that won#t happen.
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:13 PM
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It's not. It's your fault that you are petty idiots. Two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.

What you continually fail to grasp is the Brexit is the worst option, worse obviously than remaining in the EU, but also worse than another 2 years of uncertainty. Uncertainty is better than the certainty of something shit.
What you continually fail to grasp is that no, uncertainty isn't better than the certainty of something shit, especially in politics and economics. Certainty can be worked with, planned for (or against or around), mitigated. Uncertainty causes chaos, irrationality, division, an inability to plan for the future beyond the short-term. Uncertainty has been harming the UK for the past two years at an accelerating pace, and the longer it continues the worse the effect on the EU will be.

So no, the EU are neither petty nor wrong in this instance.
  #591  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:19 PM
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Prexactly. Thanks Gyrate, couldn't have said it better myself.


ETA : it's anything but petty. It's "we won't let you drag us down with you in your vortex of unbelievable dysfunction"
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Last edited by Kobal2; 03-22-2019 at 02:21 PM.
  #592  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:26 PM
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What you continually fail to grasp is that no, uncertainty isn't better than the certainty of something shit, especially in politics and economics. Certainty can be worked with, planned for (or against or around), mitigated. Uncertainty causes chaos, irrationality, division, an inability to plan for the future beyond the short-term. Uncertainty has been harming the UK for the past two years at an accelerating pace, and the longer it continues the worse the effect on the EU will be.

So no, the EU are neither petty nor wrong in this instance.
Three weeks is not long enough to plan for no-deal, and neither the UK nor the EU has plans in place to deal with it. There are, what, about a million non-British EU citizens here who may suddenly become illegal immigrants on April 13th, and there's no plans to deal with it - and you think this is a preferrable situation to 2 more years of uncertainty? Even the requested 3 months would have given some time to plan if, as expected, May's deal does not pass. Hell, a decade of this uncertainty would be better for everyone than no-deal.

This is a crisis, and needs to be treated as such. Really, there are strong parallels with the way many Americans are acting as though Trump is just another bad president and treating him as such, rather than realising that he's a potential disaster - although, unlike with Brexit, incompetence on his part will likely lead to something similar to the status quo remaining. Whereas in Europe, incompetence and inaction are what will lead to disaster.

You know what? I hope I'm wrong. I would be delighted to be, I would love it if a practical solution is found, ideally one that involves cancelling Brexit, by the middle of next month. But nothing's convinced me that it will happen, and it doesn't seem that the EU is willing to work towards that. The only reason I'm not calling out the UK government (or opposition) more is that that's already been done to death, and there'sno sign of any change.
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:27 PM
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it's anything but petty. It's "we won't let you drag us down with you in your vortex of unbelievable dysfunction"
But that, by effectively ensuring a no-deal exit, is precisely what's happening.
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:46 PM
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Three weeks is not long enough to plan for no-deal
How about three years? THREE. YEARS. And you think a few more months will fix that?

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and neither the UK nor the EU has plans in place to deal with it. There are, what, about a million non-British EU citizens here who may suddenly become illegal immigrants on April 13th, and there's no plans to deal with it - and you think this is a preferrable situation to 2 more years of uncertainty?
It's a "rip the Band-Aid/plaster off" situation. Two years post-Brexit the EU would be in a much better place than after two more years of uncertainty. In either case the UK will be in a terrible state, but there's nothing the EU can do about that.

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Even the requested 3 months would have given some time to plan if, as expected, May's deal does not pass.
We've had years. There is nothing to suggest that three months will change anything.

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Hell, a decade of this uncertainty would be better for everyone than no-deal.
No it wouldn't, not by a long, long way. I'm sorry you can't see that.

I work with businesses and organisations across the financial and educational sector, and the uncertainty about whether Brexit will happen, when it will happen and what it will be is already devastating them at a cost of billions, for no benefit whatsoever. They desperately want to know what will happen and when and how so they can plan for it. You cannot run a business, a university or a country without a plan for the future (or with umpteen contingency plans). And another ten years of this? That's a Lost Generation right there.

Quote:
This is a crisis, and needs to be treated as such. Really, there are strong parallels with the way many Americans are acting as though Trump is just another bad president and treating him as such, rather than realising that he's a potential disaster - although, unlike with Brexit, incompetence on his part will likely lead to something similar to the status quo remaining. Whereas in Europe, incompetence and inaction are what will lead to disaster.
This is a crisis of our own making. The EU has done everything they reasonably can do to convince the UK of the error of its ways and has been rebuffed and insulted throughout. They are now - rightly - insisting that the UK shit or get off the pot, in the full knowledge that if the UK is given three more months it will be the same as the last three months, and the three months before that, and when the next deadline came the UK would still be in the same shitty unresolved state, except that the uncertainty will be fucking up the EU elections. Frankly they're doing us a favour by forcing the issue, which is not remotely the same as "ensuring a no-deal exit". Making the UK decide is the opposite of letting it crash out through inaction as is the current likelihood.

Quote:
You know what? I hope I'm wrong. I would be delighted to be, I would love it if a practical solution is found, ideally one that involves cancelling Brexit, by the middle of next month. But nothing's convinced me that it will happen, and it doesn't seem that the EU is willing to work towards that. The only reason I'm not calling out the UK government (or opposition) more is that that's already been done to death, and there'sno sign of any change.
The EU has done nothing but work towards that. If it doesn't happen, it will be entirely the fault of the UK government.
  #595  
Old 03-22-2019, 02:55 PM
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Well said, Gyrate.
  #596  
Old 03-22-2019, 03:12 PM
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But that, by effectively ensuring a no-deal exit, is precisely what's happening.

Not really, though.

I mean, for you it'll be a rude awakening for sure, and I know you know that. But for us ? We'll still be united and open border'd and so on, and we'll finally be able to deal with Brexit because now we'll know that's where we're at. And it'll suck maybe, but it is what it is. It's probably difficult to math out the fallout of no-deal versus a couple more years of will-they-won't-they... because a couple years of will-they-won't-they is super hard to predict. And there lies the rub. I trust the people steering the EU to be, if not geniuses, at least able to tap in people who know how to math this shit out ; just as I trust the EU decisions to be based on these rational analyses.

I have to, because this is all way above my, and your, paygrade.

We've reached the "you know what, fine, fuck it" point. It's not petty. It's not spiteful. We really, but really don't mean you guys any harm. We've tried. We've waited. And we still try to accommodate you to a point. But you know what, fine, fuck it. Be that way. Either you do it or you don't, but we have to know.
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Last edited by Kobal2; 03-22-2019 at 03:14 PM.
  #597  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:08 PM
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Senile AND childish, that's quite a combination.
Semantics digression: It's a pretty standard trope to refer to senile people as "childish" due to their loss of typical adult cognitive abilities; in fact, "second childhood" used to be a well-known term for senility.
  #598  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:10 PM
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Three weeks is not long enough to plan for no-deal, and neither the UK nor the EU has plans in place to deal with it.
The EU does have plans in place, it's just the UK that isn't organised. They've been setting things up & advising companies for months. Obviously the can't completely mitegate the effects of No-Deal Brexit, but they've done pretty much everything possible (they even created a mascot).
  #599  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:21 PM
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I don't know what exactly we Yanks can do to help, but like I said earlier, standing by to send Doper-specific C.A.R.E. packages if this shakes out like it might and y'all go through a (hopefully brief) period of shortages.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:21 PM
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The March 29 2019 date was fixed years ago. Everyone knew exactly and precisely how much time they had. To request an extension at all is pretty much an indication of failure to do the job, no matter how you feel about Brexit itself. It only comes down to the wire when you're negotiating by brinksmanship, which is a poor technique for building something new.

I don't want the UK to leave the EU, and I don't want the EU to be punitive, but given the last two years I think they should just let the UK crash out with no deal and begin repairing the damage. And I say that with a significant amount of concern for the people of the UK.
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