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  #201  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
simster:
This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony's snap did not kill the people who were "dusted", but rather, that "dusting" was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes.
That doesn't make any sense. Tony Stark has absolutely killed humans, as well as non-human mooks, ever since the very first time he put on the suit. He killed thousands or millions of Chitauri when he redirected the nuke through the portal in Avengers. He's never killed at quite the scale of Thanos, but I think he'd be perfectly happy dusting Thanos's entire army.

And why reuse the exact same disintegration visual effect if it's supposed to be something different actually occurring to the victim?
  #202  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:15 AM
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If Peter Parker had said "How's she going to get it to the portal before they wreck it" and the female heroes all say "she'll have help", does that negate all of the objections?
I don't have any personal objections to the scene. I'm just saying that thinking it was ham-handed or otherwise didn't work for you doesn't mean that you "Didn't get it".

It's a movie. More specifically, it's a superhero action movie. Everything is set up for a reaction or Rule of Cool. It's not as though Marvel's race with the gauntlet was derived from some academic assessment of her powers, it was "what's going to look cool and get a desired reaction?" If it failed to get that reaction from you, it's not a failing or misunderstanding on your part, it just didn't work for you.

I stand corrected on the mooks; I thought she got knocked off course or something there but I could very well be in error with my remembering.

Last edited by Jophiel; 04-29-2019 at 11:19 AM.
  #203  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:34 AM
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This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony's snap did not kill the people who were "dusted", but rather, that "dusting" was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes.

I don't understand why so many people think Gamora is back. I thought that the last scene with the Guardians, which has Quill looking at a screen that is searching for Gamora and not finding her, was a clear indication that she was dusted with everyone else Thanos brought from 2014 (whatever the dusting meant - if my explanation is correct, than that works out well).
I like that - this 'dusting' is as much resetting history (go back to where you belong) - but I think that we're supposed to view it as something more - and it doesn't matter either way - as the loop is closed and we win - but its not a reset.

re: Gamora - we're not sure if Quill is mourning (knowing she's gone) or hunting/searching. If nothing else - it shows that even with this reset, there are still people directly impacted by the 'dusting' and the events themselves will have lingering affects. The entire business with returning the soulstone 'at the exact moment' is really even harder to grok with what happens to Nat and/or Gamora.

Last edited by simster; 04-29-2019 at 11:35 AM.
  #204  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:51 AM
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I don't have any personal objections to the scene. I'm just saying that thinking it was ham-handed or otherwise didn't work for you doesn't mean that you "Didn't get it".

It's a movie. More specifically, it's a superhero action movie. Everything is set up for a reaction or Rule of Cool. It's not as though Marvel's race with the gauntlet was derived from some academic assessment of her powers, it was "what's going to look cool and get a desired reaction?" If it failed to get that reaction from you, it's not a failing or misunderstanding on your part, it just didn't work for you.

I stand corrected on the mooks; I thought she got knocked off course or something there but I could very well be in error with my remembering.
I was referring to bucketybuck's objection that the female heroes were irrelevant because Marvel didn't need help blowing through 10,000 stooges on her way to the portal, and wondering if that was really the crux of bucketybuck's criticism. Clearly, a scene will either work for you or won't; I found Thor's scenes on Asgard to be pretty cringey up until his joy/relief at getting Mjolnir back. I think that my dislike was a tonal one; Thor's anxiety and depression are played for laughs rather than taken seriously. Change that tone, and I would not have pulled up short. So I'm idly wondering whether changing Parker's line would have solved bucketybucks precipitation of disbelief, or whether it was the women all physically converging at one time that was the problem.
  #205  
Old 04-29-2019, 12:05 PM
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(missed edit window)

I think it's fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment, like Thor's panic attack being a joke took me out of the moment, but that wasn't the way the initial criticism was framed.
  #206  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:03 PM
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I think it's fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment
I think that's fair, and it was compounded by the fact that most of the female heroes were secondary or side characters which only added to making it feel super obvious. "Oh boy, Wasp and Pepper Pots and Mantis are here to help..."

It's perfectly fine to acknowledge the scene's intent and be okay with it while still thinking that the scene itself was less than seamlessly inserted:
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It’s meant as a stirring moment of girl power, and it’s worked as such for some viewers. But others, including myself, found it rather jarring. Many of these women have previously been sidelined and they’ve certainly never all met before. Why are they suddenly marching into battle side-by-side?
[...]
From the perspective of plot, it makes very little sense: how come all these women are momentarily free amid the chaos, but none of the men are? Surely the odds are that there’d be a ragtag bunch of men and women teaming up, not a neat all-girl line-up like this. That might sound like nitpicking, but such logic flaws are distracting.
[...]
There’s simply no need for this big salute to grrrl power or International Women’s Day or whatever this is meant to represent. The film is already stacked with great moments for many of these characters. There’s Rescue fighting back-to-back with her husband, Iron Man. There’s Nebula overcoming years of psychotic conditioning to care for a sick Tony Stark. There’s Valkyrie running New Asgard when Thor is incapable of doing so. And there’s Captain Marvel taking down a key enemy weapon without a scratch.

This line-up of female heroes therefore feels a bit patronising instead of celebratory.
  #207  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:11 PM
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Does anyone know if that was new footage of Natalie Portman, or re-purposed archive footage?
  #208  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:15 PM
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I've just seen it. What can I add to what has been said before? I thought they did well to avoid the problem of Justice League where they basically waited for Superman to solve the problem. Here Captain Marvell just gave people a breather and knocked out Thanos' ship before Thanos fended her off.

I did miss the moment they pulled the switch on the gauntlet.
  #209  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:16 PM
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I think it's fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment,
Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment?
  #210  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:17 PM
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Does anyone know if that was new footage of Natalie Portman, or re-purposed archive footage?
According to the directors, the on screen footage was from Dark World, but they did have her do some new voice work. Which you probably couldn't hear anyway.
  #211  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:18 PM
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This bothered me a bit as well, at first. But I thought of an explanation/fanwank for it: Tony's snap did not kill the people who were "dusted", but rather, that "dusting" was them being returned to their own time with no memories of what happens in the future. Even though the effect looked the same, it was in actuality different. After all, Tony Stark is not a killer like Thanos, and he is smart enough to understand not to cause time paradoxes.
No, they're definitely dead. There's no way the film makers would use the exact same disintegration effect if we're meant to understand that Tony's just putting them back in the past. That would just be spectacularly inept film making.

Also, again, time paradoxes are specifically described as impossible in this film's time travel model. You go back in time and try to change things, you don't alter the time you came from, you just create an alternative timeline. That's the entire reason the Avenger's plan was, "Go back in time and get the stones, use them to undo the Snap," and not, "Go back in time and strangle Thanos as a baby so the Snap never happens." The latter wouldn't change anything in their universe.

Also, as noted, Tony Stark is absolutely willing to kill. Practically the first thing he does when he builds his first Iron Man suit is hose down a bunch of terrorists with napalm.

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I don't understand why so many people think Gamora is back. I thought that the last scene with the Guardians, which has Quill looking at a screen that is searching for Gamora and not finding her, was a clear indication that she was dusted with everyone else Thanos brought from 2014 (whatever the dusting meant - if my explanation is correct, than that works out well).
Gamora isn't dusted, she just ran off after the battle was over, because she was picked up out of the time line before she met Quill or any of the other Guardians, and so has no emotional connection to any of them (except Nebula, and the relationship between the two of them is even more weird than usual right now). They just went to a lot of trouble to bring back one of the core cast members from one of their biggest sub-franchises. If they were just going to kill her again, they'd at least have put some emotional weight behind it, not just have it be something that flashes on Quill's monitor for two seconds.

Pretty sure a major part of GotG 3 is finding Gamora and convincing her to rejoin the crew.
  #212  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:19 PM
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Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment?
If they had no thematic reason to be there, then sure.
  #213  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:21 PM
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Saw it on Saturday,

Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet:
Do you think Nebula made sure to have Clint and Nat go together to get the Soul Stone? The Soul Stone requires not just a sacrifice, but a sacrifice of someone you love the most. Any other pairing goes there, they don't get the stone. I think Nebula put together the pieces of what happened to Gamora and pushed those two to go. Which is also a little redemption for Quill ruining the plan on Titan. If he hadn't done that, Nebula wouldn't have figured it out.
  #214  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:25 PM
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My daughter just reminded me of my favorite line of the movie:

"I swear to god, until this second I thought you were a Build-A-Bear."

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Gamora isn't dusted, she just ran off after the battle was over, because she was picked up out of the time line before she met Quill or any of the other Guardians, and so has no emotional connection to any of them (except Nebula, and the relationship between the two of them is even more weird than usual right now). They just went to a lot of trouble to bring back one of the core cast members from one of their biggest sub-franchises. If they were just going to kill her again, they'd at least have put some emotional weight behind it, not just have it be something that flashes on Quill's monitor for two seconds.

Pretty sure a major part of GotG 3 is finding Gamora and convincing her to rejoin the crew.
Yeah, that struck me as pretty obvious foreshadowing as to what's going to happen in GotG 3. After they figure out who is really captain of the Benatar.

Last edited by muldoonthief; 04-29-2019 at 01:26 PM.
  #215  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:36 PM
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Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment?
Depends on the heroes. If it was Bucky, Luis, Hawkeye, Corpsman Dey, Korg, Wong, Heimdall and Ned all coming together* then yeah it would be pretty weird to see them all being "Yeah, Avengers power!" and wondering when they suddenly started coordinating efforts despite mainly having no clue who each other are. Which is what the all-women lineup felt like.

*We'll drop the soft fleshy normal-types into some power suits, Pepper Potts style.
  #216  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:36 PM
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"I swear to god, until this second I thought you were a Build-A-Bear."
"Maybe I am."
  #217  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:40 PM
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Saw it on Saturday,

Something I haven't seen mentioned here yet:
Do you think Nebula made sure to have Clint and Nat go together to get the Soul Stone? The Soul Stone requires not just a sacrifice, but a sacrifice of someone you love the most. Any other pairing goes there, they don't get the stone. I think Nebula put together the pieces of what happened to Gamora and pushed those two to go. Which is also a little redemption for Quill ruining the plan on Titan. If he hadn't done that, Nebula wouldn't have figured it out.
I thought that too. I think it makes sense, and I think it's perfectly in character for Nebula - just because she's on the side of the angels, that doesn't mean she is one. Nebula is just unsentimental enough to knowingly sacrifice a member of her team, if it's the only way to do the job.
  #218  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:41 PM
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That doesn't make any sense. Tony Stark has absolutely killed humans, as well as non-human mooks, ever since the very first time he put on the suit. He killed thousands or millions of Chitauri when he redirected the nuke through the portal in Avengers. He's never killed at quite the scale of Thanos, but I think he'd be perfectly happy dusting Thanos's entire army.
He's not a killer at heart. As soon as he saw, first-hand, the effects of the munitions manufactured by his company, he stopped manufacturing them. Everything he experienced during the Battle of New York - including having to kill a ton of Chitauri - gave him PTSD. Everything he did since then - Ultron, the Sokovia Accords - was for the sake of taking the killing out of his hands, or at least the decision that killing is necessary out of his hands. He does not have the heart to end lives.
  #219  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:45 PM
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Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment?
I enjoyed the scene as it was, and I wouldn't advocate for changing it, but I did 'notice' it. It put almost all the female heroes on screen at the same time - I suppose you could add Maria Hill and Sharon Carter and Janet van Dyne to the total count, so that would make it like 75%, what with Black Widow being dead. If 75% of the male heroes were dropped into the same frame without any of the female heroes, then yes, I think I would have thought it notable, in a 'what a sausage party' kind of way.
  #220  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:53 PM
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muldoonthief:



He's not a killer at heart. As soon as he saw, first-hand, the effects of the munitions manufactured by his company, he stopped manufacturing them. Everything he experienced during the Battle of New York - including having to kill a ton of Chitauri - gave him PTSD. Everything he did since then - Ultron, the Sokovia Accords - was for the sake of taking the killing out of his hands, or at least the decision that killing is necessary out of his hands. He does not have the heart to end lives.
I don't agree with that at all. He did kill more Ten Rings members even after he stopped making munitions. He killed Obadiah Stane. The PTSD from New York was about nearly losing his own life, not killing Chitauri. He signed the Accords because he wants the decisions taken out of his own hands - because of him, tens of thousands of innocents were killed in Sokovia. He killed multiple Extremis subjects in IM3, including Brandt, Savin & Killian. He killed Ebony Maw right at the beginning of Infinity War, and the only reason he didn't kill anyone else is that the only one who showed up on Titan was Thanos. He really, really, really does have the heart to end lives.
  #221  
Old 04-29-2019, 01:54 PM
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Oh.
My.
GOD.

That was the most incredible spectacle ever put to film. I can't imagine how they'll ever top this.
It basically gave me everything I wanted out of the movie. I have nothing at all to complain about.
That was me. I geeked out. I cried. I laughed.

Watching Cap wield Mjolnir made it for me.
  #222  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:04 PM
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No, they're definitely dead. There's no way the film makers would use the exact same disintegration effect if we're meant to understand that Tony's just putting them back in the past. That would just be spectacularly inept film making.
Well, it's a better dramatic effect if it looks like the good guys got back tit-for-tat what Thanos did in the first movie. But since these guys travelled forward from 2014, and have been engaged in activity after that point that led to the current battle, there's a serious causality problem. Not to mention Nebula "killing" her past self.

Quote:
Also, again, time paradoxes are specifically described as impossible in this film's time travel model. You go back in time and try to change things, you don't alter the time you came from, you just create an alternative timeline.
That's what the Ancient One said would happen IF the stones weren't returned to whence they were stolen from. But Hulk promised to do it, and Cap did it, so there should be only the one timeline.

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That's the entire reason the Avenger's plan was, "Go back in time and get the stones, use them to undo the Snap," and not, "Go back in time and strangle Thanos as a baby so the Snap never happens." The latter wouldn't change anything in their universe.
No, the latter couldn't happen because it would create a paradox. They understood the danger or impossibility of undoing events that led to their present situation.

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Also, as noted, Tony Stark is absolutely willing to kill. Practically the first thing he does when he builds his first Iron Man suit is hose down a bunch of terrorists with napalm.
As noted in my prior post, he doesn't like doing it, it troubles him greatly. With the ability to snap any conclusion he wants (even aside from my second point - he knows that paradox would be a bad thing), he would not knowingly choose the one that kills a zillion folks.
  #223  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:05 PM
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"Maybe I am."
Apparently they did release a Rocket BAB when GotG 2 came out, along with several other Guardians. They've been discontinued, but you can get a Thanos, Iron Man, or Hulk bear right now, along with many others.
  #224  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:13 PM
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Thanos says that he eliminated half the life of all sorts. I don't see why it's necessary to eliminate any life except for the humans if I understand his goal correctly. All of the species on Earth exist in balance and this system worked fine for millions of years, at least until the humans started to mess things up.
  #225  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:36 PM
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I can see that I have an overly developed 'suspension of disbelief' gland. Oh, not due to Endgame. Saw it and Loved it and didn't hardly have to exercise it at all. It's just that watching this thread, I realize nobody could possibly make a movie where someone wasn't all Comic book guy disappointed over it.

I mean, it doesn't have NEAR the plot holes of Star Trek Discovery and I'm pretty entertained by that, too.

The women teamed up. The 'gang pose' is a well known trope in MCU movies and this was just another one. the Unfazed Marvel Head-Butt was AWESOME...as was Thanos improvising with the power stone to gain the upper hand. and of COURSE a morphing nano-tech Stark Hand would interface and be Stark Controllable. That was also AWESOME. And Cap got his girl in the end. (Awesome) And I thought we were doomed, like, three different times during the end battle. (Awesome)...And Fat Thor (The irony of having a hafthor in GOT is not lost on me).

And the only spoiler I had going into it was Professor Hulk (in an ad, in the background of IMDB of all places.) which made the whole thing really enjoyable.

And Rabbit talking Thor down...and Thor getting closure with Mom...and...and...and.
  #226  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:39 PM
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The Wall of Women totally did it for me and my 16 year old daughter - considering we are the exact demographic that the MCU was reaching out to with that scene, then well done Russo Brothers!

We loved the fact that both Wanda and Carol were not able to be beaten "on their own". For the Scarlet Witch, Thanos had to "rain fire" and kill a bunch of his own troops, and for Captain Marvel he had to punch her with the power stone. They are totally kickass and I loved every second they were on screen. We were anxiously waiting for Carol to show up, and as soon as the ship started firing at an (unknown target) we knew, and there was a celebration in our row (weirdly, the entire row was women, save one Dad near the end).

I also loved the amount of trust The Ancient One has in Dr. Strange, even though she has not even met him yet. She knows, as soon as Bruce (Grey Hulk?) says "Dr. Strange handed it to Thanos" that there was a plan, and it was a good one.

The death of Iron Man was sad, but not unexpected and I was delighted that Cap finally got his life with Peggy. If he hadn't, I would have been PISSED.

The scene that got me crying though was Thor with his Mom. She said exactly what he needed to hear, and I thought about what I would give for five more minutes with my mom.

Excellent movie! Perfect wrap-up, and I can't wait for another Captain Marvel (she is my current fave), or Dr. Strange.
  #227  
Old 04-29-2019, 02:59 PM
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Well, it's a better dramatic effect if it looks like the good guys got back tit-for-tat what Thanos did in the first movie. But since these guys travelled forward from 2014, and have been engaged in activity after that point that led to the current battle, there's a serious causality problem. Not to mention Nebula "killing" her past self.
Just from a craft point of view, they established a particular visual effect in Infinity Wars that meant, "this person just disintegrated." If they later use the exact same visual effect, in apparently the exact same situation, only now it means, "This person was just teleported," that's really bad film making.

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That's what the Ancient One said would happen IF the stones weren't returned to whence they were stolen from. But Hulk promised to do it, and Cap did it, so there should be only the one timeline.
That's what happens if you make any significant changes to the timeline. Banner had already established this before they went back in time, when he was explaining why they didn't just go back and kill Thanos as a baby. The Ancient One refused to give up the Time Stone, because without the Time Stone, that particular alternate timeline ends with everybody dying, because Doctor Strange doesn't have the Time Stone to beat Dormammu a few years later. Banner offers to return the Time Stone, so that particular timeline (one where Dormammu destroys the Earth) doesn't happen.

That doesn't mean that other alternate timelines weren't created in the movie. There's absolutely a new timeline where Thanos never gets any of the stones, because he traveled to the future and died there. There's a new timeline where Steve Rogers shows up a little after his plane went into the ice, and spends a life time with Peggy. There's a timeline where Loki escaped immediately after the Battle of New York, instead of being imprisoned on Asgard.

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No, the latter couldn't happen because it would create a paradox. They understood the danger or impossibility of undoing events that led to their present situation.
There's literally multiple conversations in the movie where they dismiss the problem of paradoxes caused by time travel. They're really super explicit about this.

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As noted in my prior post, he doesn't like doing it, it troubles him greatly. With the ability to snap any conclusion he wants (even aside from my second point - he knows that paradox would be a bad thing), he would not knowingly choose the one that kills a zillion folks.
I don't really think that read is supported by how he's been portrayed in any of the movies. He's never showed any qualms about killing people who are actively threatening lives. He got fucked up with PTSD because he almost died himself, and he was having trouble with the responsibility of being the guy responsible for saving the world, but there's never a hint that he's got any fundamental problems with taking lives.
  #228  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:12 PM
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I'm kinda wondering - a sacrifice is required to acquire the Soul stone...but what happens when someone does the reverse? Gives up the Soul stone? Does that, maybe, require a straight swap back? The Soul stone does seem kinda Lawful...
It's certainly an explanation I could bite off, if Natasha returns in present day.

That said, I'd like to see the prequel treatment - maybe we'd find out what happened in Budapest!
YES! I want to know the Black Widow/Hawkeye story in Budapest.
  #229  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:16 PM
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Yay. I'll jump back into an argument that I think I had hand in starting.

The All Women All-Stars: The framing of the scene, and the logistics of how they all came together, is too deep a dive. The framing and the logistics came straight out of comic books. Go figure. In comic books you generally wouldn't see pages and pages of sweeping scenes to let you know that all the women are fighting at once. You'd get a splash page - just like what we saw in the movie.

Banquet Bear - I agree with your points. I guess the reason I didn't get your analogy is that it's a little off-kilter. "Avengers Assemble" is a tag line - I think it's been said in every Avengers movie (I could be wrong). The all female fighting force is a special event. So I didn't really get why you were comparing the two - truthfully I thought you were going down the same road of complaining about logistical issues in a comic book movie - but again, I generally agree with your points regarding that scene.
  #230  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by brossa View Post
I think it's fair to say that nine female heroes converging at once takes you out of the moment
Yup, that was my issue. I know why they did it, I'm sure lots of little girls cheered, but it totally jerked me out of the moment. I noticed it. In the OG Avengers the iconic scene with them fighting back-to-back fit into the sequence a lot better and while it was clearly contrived, it didn't feel inorganic.
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Old 04-29-2019, 03:26 PM
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Banquet Bear - I agree with your points. I guess the reason I didn't get your analogy is that it's a little off-kilter. "Avengers Assemble" is a tag line - I think it's been said in every Avengers movie (I could be wrong). The all female fighting force is a special event. So I didn't really get why you were comparing the two - truthfully I thought you were going down the same road of complaining about logistical issues in a comic book movie - but again, I generally agree with your points regarding that scene.
Actually, they've made it a point never to say "Avengers Assemble" in any previous MCU movie. They were saving it for the maximum moment of awesomeness. At the end of "Ultron", when Cap is addressing the new Avengers, he starts to say it, but they cut to black before he says "Assemble".
  #232  
Old 04-29-2019, 03:35 PM
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As noted in my prior post, he doesn't like doing it, it troubles him greatly. With the ability to snap any conclusion he wants (even aside from my second point - he knows that paradox would be a bad thing), he would not knowingly choose the one that kills a zillion folks.
You can say that all you want, but it's just not supported by the evidence.

Here's Tony killing Savin and making a quip about it.

Here's Tony attempting to kill Killian, though Pepper had to finish him off afterwards.

Here's Tony killing Ebony Maw. with another quip.

So claiming that Tony won't kill Thanos, Ebony Maw & the rest of the Black Order, and thousands of mindless vicious outriders, who are all intent on killing ALL OF HUMANITY, because "it troubles him greatly" is preposterous.
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:34 PM
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Actually, they've made it a point never to say "Avengers Assemble" in any previous MCU movie. They were saving it for the maximum moment of awesomeness. At the end of "Ultron", when Cap is addressing the new Avengers, he starts to say it, but they cut to black before he says "Assemble".
Okay. Maybe it was a special event.


Still a tagline though.
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:36 PM
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You can say that all you want, but it's just not supported by the evidence.

Here's Tony killing Savin and making a quip about it.

Here's Tony attempting to kill Killian, though Pepper had to finish him off afterwards.

Here's Tony killing Ebony Maw. with another quip.

So claiming that Tony won't kill Thanos, Ebony Maw & the rest of the Black Order, and thousands of mindless vicious outriders, who are all intent on killing ALL OF HUMANITY, because "it troubles him greatly" is preposterous.
I think the biggest difference between the MCU and the various DC movies is that the MCU doesn't spend too much time hand wringing about killing. I can only think of three times it comes up:
1) Banner gets upset when Thor tells him the Hulk killed a bunch of soldiers (and then backtracks by saying they were just severely injured)
2) Dr. Strange gets upset about killing, because of the Hippocratic Oath.
3) Spider-man doesn't want to kill and saves Vulture, which fits him because he's just a kid.

The Big 3 don't have any qualms.
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Old 04-29-2019, 04:41 PM
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The Big 3 don't have any qualms.
Doubly so after living 5 years with the results of them failing to stop Thanos. I could see RDJ/Tony Stark having enough of Thanos' shit and ending any part of it that could come back later.

Which begs the question...Is Thanos gone, or in the Soul Stone?
  #236  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:44 PM
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Y'know, I wonder if Tony took the opportunity to snap all Hydra members out of existence while he was either putting Thanos and crew back where they belonged, sans memories, or deleting them completely.

And I still want to know why it's necessary to snap your fingers to get the gauntlet to do its thing.
  #237  
Old 04-29-2019, 04:48 PM
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No, it shows that (as mentioned many times previously) Captain Marvel has fluctuating Plot Power where she can face-smash her way through an entire starship one second and get stopped by a couple mooks the next. It wasn't a question of "Could she have done it?", it was "Let's frame this so we can show these women doing stuff as a team".
...but this isn't what bucketybuck was talking about. Captain Marvel wasn't stopped by a couple of mooks. She was taken out by Thanos. Seconds before that happened A-Force hit Thanos and knocked him over. bucketybuck argues that Captain Marvel didn't need any help. But she obviously did.

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He understood that perfectly well.
No he didn't.
  #238  
Old 04-29-2019, 05:19 PM
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Y'know, I wonder if Tony took the opportunity to snap all Hydra members out of existence while he was either putting Thanos and crew back where they belonged, sans memories, or deleting them completely.

And I still want to know why it's necessary to snap your fingers to get the gauntlet to do its thing.
It's a macro; the actual list of mental commands is lengthy, sensitive to ambiguous natural language, and hangs up over trivial shit like em-dash vs en-dash.

"I wish to have my parents over for dinner"
Oh no!
  #239  
Old 04-29-2019, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank View Post

Which begs the question...Is Thanos gone, or in the Soul Stone?
There was no implication that the dusted ended up in the Soul Stone like some people hypothesized. Peter said it felt like he passed out and then woke up on Titan five years later.
  #240  
Old 04-29-2019, 07:34 PM
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That music at Tony Stark's funeral/memorial was amazing. I hope they actually got everyone on set to film that cool camera movement where it went through the full cast. Maybe they composited it, but I want to believe they really shot it.

Here is the music from that moment, which really elevated it.
  #241  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:15 PM
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My problem with the scene is not that we got a fist pumping moment of specifically female awesomeness (which could super-easily have been achieved in various other ways) or even a fist pumping moment of specifically female working-together awesomeness (probably somewhat tougher to organically write into the middle of a huge battle, particularly if you want them all to be working together as one unit); it's that it's logistically so ridiculous that it did (and continues to do so) take me somewhat out of the movie.
...and as I said earlier it was logistically ridiculous when Stark and Parker happened to run into each other and have an emotional moment. And it was logistically ridiculous that Peter Quill got rescued then hilariously kneed by Gamora. The Avengers movies are full of logistically ridiculous moments. As has been pointed out what happens to the planet when 50% of the population returns after five years of absence? How exactly does the mechanism of time-travel work in this universe?

Quote:
So... there's this huge battle, with lots of fog of war and confusion. At one moment on one place on the huge battlefield there is (ignoring the question of whether Captain Marvel should need help or not) a need for help. And, instantaneously, every single female hero from all over the battlefield, wherever they had been, whatever they had been doing, whoever they had been fighting; and NONE of the male heroes, no matter how near-by; all arrive in exactly the same place at exactly the same time to provide that help?
Or perhaps the heroes weren't as spread out as we imagined. I mean Peter and Tony found each other. As did Gamora and Starlord. Thanos blasted Captain Marvel out of the sky and she happened to land right next to Stark and co. Perhaps the heroes were all fighting right next to each other.

Perhaps the women on the battlefield (just like in real life) were looking out for each other, had each others backs, and when the call went out they responded.

It really isn't that hard to imagine how this happened. If you can wave away all the other ridiculous moments in the movie it is pretty easy to wave away this one as well.

Quote:
It's just silly. And yes, other silly things happen. For instance, the "characters always have time to have a heartfelt conversation and/or quips, even in the middle of an intense battle" cliche. I suppose that I've grown desensitized to them, because they're so much part of the language of blockbuster action moviemaking. Whereas the "all the women from all across the battlefield, despite working happily with their male counterparts before and after this one moment, suddenly work together for one single gender-segregated mission" trope is not yet particularly common.
Well I'm afraid then you are just going to have to get used to it. We've been desensitized to the language of blockbuster action moviemaking where men (more often than not, white men) from all across the battlefield suddenly work together for one single "gender-segregated mission". That trope is so particularly common nobody complains about it. If you hadn't noticed its the default, its because it almost never happens in any other way.

But the language of blockbuster action moviemaking is changing. The language of blockbuster action moviemaking was written by white men. Do you know how many movies with budgets over 100 million have been given to woman directors? Nine. The first one was Kathryn Bigalow in 2002. The next wasn't until 2011 with Jennifer Yuh Nelson and Kung Fu Panda. Lana and Lilly Wachowski in 2012. Patty Jenkins in 2017. Ava DuVernay was the first black woman to get a budget over 100 million and that didn't happen until 2018.

And out of all of those movies only Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel (which was co-directed by a man) would fit what one would call a "blockbuster action movie." Two movies in the entire history of film.

So when you talk about the "language of blockbuster filmmaking" you are talking about movies that have been made by white-men that pandered to white men. Which is why Black Panther was so successful. Which is why Captain Marvel broke a billion dollars. Because there are millions of people out there who hadn't been pandered too that finally are starting to get movies that are pandering to them, we are getting a chance to see people who looked and acted like them onscreen. When I finally watched the movie Moana the other day I was literally in tears for the first twenty minutes of the movie. It was overwhelming. When Hollywood has never pandered to you but then they put people on screen that look like you and sound like you it makes all the difference in the world.

Which is why Captain Marvel sparked such a backlash from the goobers and why so many reviewers missed the subtleties and the nuances in the plotting: the movie didn't pander to them.

And its why this moment: that only last a few seconds onscreen, didn't work for everyone. It didn't fit the cinematic language you are used too, it didn't pander to your expectations.

Quote:
Would I have objected just as much if it had been men? Hard to say, it's literally never happened...
LOL

Quote:
at least with a cast of this scale, with as many individual bad-ass male AND female characters, such that a sudden assembling of all the bad-ass male characters and specifically none of the bad-ass female characters would be so noticeable.
There has never been a movie with a cast of this scale in the history of filmmaking. There has never been as many individual bad-ass male AND female characters put to film together EVER. DIVERSITY ONSCREEN IS NOT THE DEFAULT. The first Avengers movie had a token woman who had no super powers. What happened in this Endgame wasn't just an evolution, it was a revolution. It was a declarative statement. Phase 3 is ending. Welcome to Phase 4.

Quote:
(Obviously there have been plenty of movies in the past with tons of bad-ass male characters and NO bad-ass female characters, but that's not really a meaningful comparison.)
Oh come on. Of course it is a meaningful comparison.

Quote:
To repeat myself from earlier:
As for the women-team-up scene, after a few hours of pondering, I've realized how I would do it, which would also solve another minor problem, which is that Thanos's chief minions, who were quite serious mini-bosses in their own right last movie, barely registered.
Yeah, but I don't want to see your movie. I preferred what I saw.

Quote:
So one of the (male) minions is fighting one of the female good guys. They trade blows, then he gets the upper hand, and makes a derisive sexist comment, calling her a little girl, or something. Then we do a series of camera cuts all around the battlefield as triumphant music plays, showing all the female heroes kicking ass, ending back at the initial fight, and she responds with a one liner like "I'm not a girl, I'm a woman" (but more funny) and dodges his death blow and chops his ass in half.
This would have been far worse in my opinion. It frames the moment once again by something a man has done, while the moment in the movie is framed around agency and solidarity. It would have taken longer to show this onscreen. There are valid production reasons why they did the scene as they did. It would have framed it around a single battle with a mook instead of the final hit on Thanos before the endgame.

Quote:
Same general celebratory effect, makes way more sense.
Makes more sense to you, but its effectively adding another subplot to an already overstuffed movie. None of the mooks spoke in the battle. But to set this up you've got to have a talking mook. The only mook that wouldn't need a set-up is Ebony Maw, but having Ebony say a derisive sexist comment would be out of character. Its perfectly possible to do have filmed the scene as you suggest, but it involves adding a completely new plot beat, where as filmed its all about stopping Thanos getting the gauntlet.

But regardless: the men raging across the internet over the scene as shot they would be raging over your scene as well. It wouldn't make any difference to them.
  #242  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:51 PM
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You can say that all you want, but it's just not supported by the evidence.

Here's Tony killing Savin and making a quip about it.

Here's Tony attempting to kill Killian, though Pepper had to finish him off afterwards.

Here's Tony killing Ebony Maw. with another quip.

So claiming that Tony won't kill Thanos, Ebony Maw & the rest of the Black Order, and thousands of mindless vicious outriders, who are all intent on killing ALL OF HUMANITY, because "it troubles him greatly" is preposterous.
I don’t think Tony has a problem with killing bad guys, but he is very much bothered by innocent people dying.

1) Once he finds out his weapons are being sold to terrorists, he gets out of weapons manufacture immediately. This despite the harm it causes to his company.
2) In age of Ultron, he sends the Iron Legion to protect civilians.
3) Surely part of his motivation to create Ultron at all is to reconcile his powerful desire to protect people with his equally powerful desire to avoid responsibility. And when Ultron proves to be a threat, Tony takes responsibility and acts.
4) In Civil War, he agrees to the Sokovia accords basically because one innocent life was lost. Steve Rogers is more comfortable with the idea of collateral damage than Tony is.

But Thanos’ army? Dusted, no problem. And I can easily see him including a “No Hurting Innocents” proviso in the snap.

As for the movie, loved it. I recognized the A Force scene for what is was, but wasn’t bothered by it. I think the movie could have been improved by cutting out five minutes or so, and the older I get the more I wish they would bring back intermissions. I also would have liked them have done more with Thanos’ resurrected minions (like Tony killing Ebony Maw again), but that’s just minor quibbling. I”m definitely going to see it again.
  #243  
Old 04-29-2019, 08:59 PM
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Nothing which suggests that it was a secret. He presumably used an assumed name.
Plus, he is 12 years older than Steve Rogers was back I. ‘45 when he “died”.
People won’t necessarily make the connection beyond “resembles jacked Steve Rogers”.
His Sharon Carter interactions will be awkward though.

In films and in the Agent Carter series, the identity and picture of her husband is never revealed. It was one of the lingering questions in the series. And it was not definitively answered, before it ended.
The show was cancelled in early 2016, right after the storylines for what became Infiniti War & Endgame were written.
I presume it’s not a coincidence.
Bear in mind, Peggy was in the SSR/SHIELD - setting up a false identity would have been a doddle for her. (Credit to my wife for thinking that up).
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:29 PM
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Don't worry about Thanos: he gets killed all the time, no bigs.
  #245  
Old 04-29-2019, 10:32 PM
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There were some definite flaws in this. Some seem to be things most agree on; others are divisive (I thought Black Widow's death was lame); and at least one seems to be something most people like: Thor's fat and drunken buffoonery, which my son and I both dissented from said general enjoyment.

But there was lots of good stuff too. I liked their general approach to time travel, and calling out other SF movies that work with a single timeline (which can be entertaining but is incoherent even for time travel logic which is notoriously problematic in general). And it ended strongly, starting with Stark's death and continuing with Steve Rogers (a character I'm normally not that keen on) coming back having relived his life with Peggy. So thanks to recency bias I give this a pretty strong rating overall: B+. I rank it seventh of the 20 MCU films I've seen:

1. Avengers A
Spider-Man: Homecoming A-
Infinity War A-
Iron Man A-
5. Captain Marvel B+
Doctor Strange B+
Endgame B+
Age of Ultron B+
Black Panther B
10. Iron Man 3 B
Civil War B
Ant-Man B-
Ragnarok C+
Guardians C+
15. Ant-Man & The Wasp C+
Incredible Hulk C
Thor C
Winter Soldier C
First Avenger C-
Iron Man 2 D
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:53 PM
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[Moderating]

I'm getting some reports about the discussion of the "woman power" scene being a problem in this thread. Now, on the one hand, I've been trying to avoid this thread as much as possible, because I haven't seen the movie yet. But on the other hand, it's still my job to moderate this forum. So I'm reading posts that are getting reported, but I'm trying not to read any more than I need to. And the post I read was not in any way acrimonious, and was critiquing the movie, which is after all what we're here for.

What I'm saying is, if you think that a line of discussion in this thread is a problem, then make sure to report the specific posts that you think are problematic, not just the start of a discussion that later becomes problematic. Got that?
  #247  
Old 04-29-2019, 11:21 PM
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Really? Why? Would nine male heroes converging at once have taken you out of the moment?
If it was done to deliberately pander to the audience's male-ness, yeah.
  #248  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:44 AM
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But regardless: the men raging across the internet over the scene as shot they would be raging over your scene as well. It wouldn't make any difference to them.
Are you counting me (and other posters in this thread) as part of "men raging across the internet"?

Because I am absolutely 100% certain that my reaction to that scene was not because I object to girl power or messages of uplift, it was because the logistics of the scene jumped out like a sore thumb. I'm quite sure that there are mouth-breathing cretins who are complaining just because women-sjw-feminazis, but that doesn't mean everyone who had an issues with that scene is so motivated.

For instance, here's a quote from Caroline Siede at the AV Club:
Quote:
Part of what makes the moment so clunky is that it sacrifices all sense of internal logic in favor of simplistic iconography. (Look, I’m all for female solidarity, but if the fate of the universe relies on me successfully carrying a gauntlet across a field, I’d frankly much rather have Thor by my side than Mantis.)
(Most of the article, she spends complaining about the fact that the scene is unearned because the rest of the movie isn't woman-forward enough, so they're using that scene to unduly pat themselves on the back.)


"Clunky", "sacrifices all sense of internal logic". I agree with both of those criticisms. So do many people, apparently. If you disagree, if you thought that that scene in no way stood out from the general level of comic-book-illogic of the rest of the movie, well, then I guess we just disagree.
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  #249  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:27 AM
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Are you counting me (and other posters in this thread) as part of "men raging across the internet"?
...nope. How would that make any sense? Why would you "rage" over a scene that you wrote? I suggest you read what I wrote again. The people that are raging over the Captain Marvel scene or "the Girl Power" scene would absolutely rage over a scene where "the bad guy makes a derisive sexist comment about one of the woman heroes, it turns into a montage of all the woman fighting in the battle, and ends with the hero saying ""I'm not a girl, I'm a woman""

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Because I am absolutely 100% certain that my reaction to that scene was not because I object to girl power or messages of uplift, it was because the logistics of the scene jumped out like a sore thumb.
And I think I have fairly responded to your critique of the logistics of the scene. Do you have any comment to make on the arguments that I made?

Quote:
I'm quite sure that there are mouth-breathing cretins who are complaining just because women-sjw-feminazis, but that doesn't mean everyone who had an issues with that scene is so motivated.
I'm glad you both agree that "mouth-breathing cretins" exist, and that the fact that I mentioned them in my post doesn't mean I was calling either you or anyone else in this thread a "mouth-breathing cretin." I do however think that its important to point these people out because we can't pretend that these people do not exist.

I made an offhand comment about "goobers" (referring to gamergoobers and their ilk, I refuse to write the proper name because merely using their name tends to attract them) and you've spun that to mean something I didn't. Nearly everything I wrote in response to you was in direct response to things you said. Your response is entirely unfair.

Quote:
For instance, here's a quote from Caroline Siede at the AV Club:

(Most of the article, she spends complaining about the fact that the scene is unearned because the rest of the movie isn't woman-forward enough, so they're using that scene to unduly pat themselves on the back.)
Caroline Siede is entitled (as are you) to express her opinion. There are plenty of women who agree with my opinion though as well, but I'm not going to cite them as a shield to protect my ideas from critique. Caroline isn't participating in this thread, so Ill continue to respond to your opinions here, not hers.

Quote:
"Clunky", "sacrifices all sense of internal logic". I agree with both of those criticisms. So do many people, apparently. If you disagree, if you thought that that scene in no way stood out from the general level of comic-book-illogic of the rest of the movie, well, then I guess we just disagree.
I'm stunned you came to that conclusion. Yes, if I disagree with your opinion then I guess we just disagree then.
  #250  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:13 AM
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My daughter and I just watched Infinity War to get a little idea what all the foofawraw was about.

When Thanos went to Vormir with Gamera to get the Soul Stone, frikkin’ RED SKULL was there to tell him how to get it!

How the HELL did RED SKULL get to a whole different planet, ALIVE, after I saw him DIE on Earth in WWII in the first Captain America movie?

Do these people have no respect for reality?
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