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  #51  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Well, I am heavily impressed.

Or would be if I wasn't familiar with the tactic of 1) citing an article and then claiming that the journal/academic institution/agency under whose auspices it appears endorses its conclusions, and 2) pointing to a cherry-picked list of articles/statistics as proof of one's assertions while misinterpreting what those sources say, and/or ignoring a vastly greater body of research/statistics that contradict those assertions.
A good example of #2 is "Miller's Critical Vaccine Studies", a book fawned over by the antivax crowd as impeccable Scientific Proof of their beliefs (the book's author also claims he has communicated with extraterrestrials, but one should not doubt his bona fides on that account ).

Some links to relevant articles from Velocity's list would be nice, as I also do not wish to click on the original link.

Did you actually read any of the articles? If you don't want to click on the link, here I just went and looked and you can find a backed up version on Archive.org:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190722...ific_Blackpill

Seems to look pretty much the same as the current version from what I can tell.
  #52  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
It sounds like people have a lot of preconceived biases that are preventing them from even evaluating the evidence provided...
You nailed that on the head, and kudos to you for returning to the thread. And yes, assuming that enormous amount of text is all true or near true, agree, a very interesting read.

But to answer your question, where to go from here, the only alternatives I see are for straight men to find other outlets for sex than women, or forcing women to have sex with men they don't want to- definitely opposed to the latter, not sure about the former?

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-26-2019 at 04:13 PM.
  #53  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood View Post
Bias because of the killings, you mean? The crazy people and the shootings? Nah.
Well I'm not an expert on this field, so correct me if I'm wrong, but there would be two obvious counterpoints to raise:

1) There have only been 1-4 "incel killers" and their death count is far lower than that of non-virgin male mass murderers. So mass murdering seems to be an equal opportunity activity. I think the few that did go on killings were severely mentally ill with autism or schizophrenia too. Murdering is reprehensible no matter who does it IMO.

2) Some muslims blow themselves up in crowds but it doesn't mean everyone who is muslim is a suicide bomber or has radical beliefs.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 04:13 PM.
  #54  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
The word incel solely means "involuntarily celibate".
This is, of course, false. "Incel" is a label that a specific internet subculture self-applied to itself. Like a few other self-applied labels (pro-life, men's rights), it's an attempt to put lipstick on a much uglier pig. Inceldom is not just a comment on your current sexual status, it is an entire worldview that includes a massive quantity of overt misogyny, sociopathy, hatred, and self-hatred, as well as endorsement of villainous acts like rape. And as a flimsy attempt to pretend their hatred has some semblance of justification, they have constructed a distorted view of reality that purports to justify their depredations.

Of course you had to have suspected this already - if inceldom was just "at the moment I'm not dating anybody or succeeding at the pickup scene", then why would it need a slew of articles cherry-picked to support its conclusions?
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Old 07-26-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmut Doork View Post
You nailed that on the head, and kudos to you for returning to the thread. And yes, assuming that enormous amount of text is all true or near true, agree, a very interesting read.

But to answer your question, where to go from here, the only alternatives I see are for straight men to find other outlets for sex than women, or forcing women to have sex with men they don't want to- definitely opposed to the latter, not sure about the former?
IMHO, incels generally have four options:

1. Continue the unhappy status quo forever;
2. Go abroad (not that incel-dom isn't a thing abroad, but most of the discussions about it are about American incels; and even an ugly American is usually granted a certain 'status' in some foreign countries);
3. Improve themselves (depending on situation, much easier said than done - for instance, if you have 3rd-degree burn scars over half your body, that's not cheaply or easily fixed)
4. Try to change society's attitudes
  #56  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:15 PM
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They've been rattling around in my brain ever since someone linked me to that page off Reddit.
You really should stay the fuck out of those Incel forums.
  #57  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
Well I'm not an expert on this field, so correct me if I'm wrong, but there would be two obvious counterpoints to raise:

1) There have only been 1-4 "incel killers" and their death count is far lower than that of non-virgin male mass murderers. So mass murdering seems to be an equal opportunity activity. I think the few that did go on killings were severely mentally ill with autism or schizophrenia too. Murdering is reprehensible no matter who does it IMO.
I may not be an expert either, but ONE IS TOO FUCKING MANY.

Quote:
2) Some muslims blow themselves up in crowds but it doesn't mean everyone who is muslim is a suicide bomber or has radical beliefs.
This is a thread about incels. A group defined by their radical misogyny already. We're not talking about all virgins or all men.
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  #58  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:19 PM
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Picking one bullet point at random:
Quote:
More men are raped in the USA every year than women
Most popular culture likes to pretend women are the only victims of rape. However, based on Department of Justice figures, more men are raped in the US every year once prison rapes are counted.

According to these statistics, the number of male rapes is more than double the number of female rapes. However, advocates claim that these figures actually underestimate the number of prison rapes, particularly of juvenile inmates, which constituted 21% percent of prison rape victims in the United States according to a 2007 Bureau of Justice Statistics report.

The public is relatively silent on the subject and little empathy, support, or advocacy is offered to these male victims of rape.

Quotes:

More men are raped in the U.S. than woman, according to figures that include sexual abuse in prisons.
In 2008, it was estimated 216,000 inmates were sexually assaulted while serving time, according to the Department of Justice figures.
That is compared to 90,479 rape cases outside of prison.
Four per cent of prisoners said they had been sexually abused in 2011.
References:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ual-abuse.html
http://jjie.org/advocates-dispute-ag...enile-inmates/
Peer-reviewed journals, my ass.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 07-26-2019 at 04:20 PM.
  #59  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
It sounds like people have a lot of preconceived biases that are preventing them from even evaluating the evidence provided. I am not an incel myself, but yet I can look at the science and review the articles and from what I've evaluated it has been perfectly sound. If you have any interest in how human sexuality works, you will find the information interesting at the minimum.

Almost every entry comes from a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Almost all are freely available journal articles on the web if you search on Google "journal article title pdf". You check easily if there is any distortion. At least of all the ones I've clicked through I have found no significant distortions. Each section includes quotes directly from the articles, for example.

I am not sure what being an incel has to do with sex slaves or any other nonsense. The word incel solely means "involuntarily celibate". There are crazy people among every group or demographic.

I find this information interesting because everyone is always saying "incels are wrong about everything", yet clearly there's an overwhelming amount of science that actually backs them on most of what they say. My impression is now that people just don't like incels so they don't care if they're right or wrong, which is being validated by many of the responses here so far.
What do those studies say that isn't already known about human sexual behavior and partner selection? They say that women prefer specific traits in men that have to do with physical, personality and economic attributes. Stop the fucking presses; The science is right!!

So along comes a guy who is on the shallow end of the pool on all of the above attributes and thinks he should be getting banged by lingerie models every night. Because what? Because it's not fair that he drew the short straw on the positive attributes lottery? Even so... and it's undeniably so for some people... work on things you can improve and quit acting like a whining jackass. Or, don't and join the incel circle jerk club and wank yourselves to death about how unfair the world is. Boo fucking hoo. Nobody owes him shit.
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  #60  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:23 PM
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By and large, yes. For instance, one part claims that white/Caucasian skin is generally considered more attractive. The cited source says as much. https://www.livescience.com/5860-att...kin-color.html
I like that this source was explicitly picked out as being representative, because it highlight just how unlikely it is that any of the science says what the incels think it does.


Incel: Look! All women like white people, so as a non-caucasion I'm doomed! Therefore I'm justified in raping people, and also in whatever other part of my twisted worldview I wish to justify by cobbling together this list of cites!

Science: No, you stupid ass. The study just says there are trends. Even with the trends there are still millions of women who are just fine with your skin color - it's your shitty, bigoted personality they can't stand.
  #61  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:25 PM
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This is, of course, false. "Incel" is a label that a specific internet subculture self-applied to itself. Like a few other self-applied labels (pro-life, men's rights), it's an attempt to put lipstick on a much uglier pig. Inceldom is not just a comment on your current sexual status, it is an entire worldview that includes a massive quantity of overt misogyny, sociopathy, hatred, and self-hatred, as well as endorsement of villainous acts like rape. And as a flimsy attempt to pretend their hatred has some semblance of justification, they have constructed a distorted view of reality that purports to justify their depredations.

Of course you had to have suspected this already - if inceldom was just "at the moment I'm not dating anybody or succeeding at the pickup scene", then why would it need a slew of articles cherry-picked to support its conclusions?
But inceldom is just not succeeding at dating and being celibate despite trying. That's the exact definition of the words "involuntarily celibate".

Your definition can most easily be proven wrong by the fact that there are people who claim to be "female incels":
https://www.reddit.com/r/Trufemcels/

So how can say for example misogyny be true of all incels? Do you presume "femcels" hate women too?

Either way, at this point you're just arguing semantics which is not really interesting to me. I don't really care what particular definition people apply to the word "incel". I think it means involuntarily celibate. I watched a recent BBC documentary on incels and 2/3 of the guys featured were nothing like you described. I am not big on making assumptions about massive groups of people or lumping everyone together that shares a condition into one category and assuming I know everything about every person within that group. To me that just sounds like you want a bogeyman to rail against rather than that you're actually trying to understand what's happening in the world.

I am also not interested in the petty business of culture wars.

I'm interested in the understanding the nature of the world and humanity. So I am interested in the points that were raised and summarized in that page.

Even if everything you say about incels is true and every single man who has ever been incel is a rapist/monster/murderer/child-eater/goblin/demon, it wouldn't change whether or not the science says those things, would it?

So while you're free to talk about whatever you want of course, the actual science and implications were more what I was interested in discussing.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 04:27 PM.
  #62  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:29 PM
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Yes, but trust me, not getting lucky in 2019, with video of any type of girl doing any type of porn you can think of accessible in seconds, is light years better than the 1970's analog with only lingerie catalogs, fully clothed game show models and the occasional Playboy at your disposal.
  #63  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:30 PM
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I didn't even see it from an incel forum. I wouldn't want to spend time on one of those forums because I'm sure they'd be depressing as hell. I saw it from another subreddit post which has now been deleted.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 04:32 PM.
  #64  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:30 PM
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Well I'm not an expert on this field, so correct me if I'm wrong, but there would be two obvious counterpoints to raise:

1) There have only been 1-4 "incel killers" and their death count is far lower than that of non-virgin male mass murderers. So mass murdering seems to be an equal opportunity activity. I think the few that did go on killings were severely mentally ill with autism or schizophrenia too. Murdering is reprehensible no matter who does it IMO.
In your amateur, uninvested, workaday research into the question when you weren't pursuing other interests that you were totally like, take-it-or-leave-it about, did you happen to come up with any information about who those killers were, and who they killed, and why?

Did you see anything about how the incel community at large reacted to those killings, and what they have to say about the killers now?
  #65  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:36 PM
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But inceldom is just not succeeding at dating and being celibate despite trying. That's the exact definition of the words "involuntarily celibate".

Your definition can most easily be proven wrong by the fact that there are people who claim to be "female incels":
https://www.reddit.com/r/Trufemcels/

So how can say for example misogyny be true of all incels? Do you presume "femcels" hate women too?

Either way, at this point you're just arguing semantics which is not really interesting to me. I don't really care what particular definition people apply to the word "incel". I think it means involuntarily celibate. I watched a recent BBC documentary on incels and 2/3 of the guys featured were nothing like you described. I am not big on making assumptions about massive groups of people or lumping everyone together that shares a condition into one category and assuming I know everything about every person within that group. To me that just sounds like you want a bogeyman to rail against rather than that you're actually trying to understand what's happening in the world.

I am also not interested in the petty business of culture wars.

I'm interested in the understanding the nature of the world and humanity. So I am interested in the points that were raised and summarized in that page.

Even if everything you say about incels is true and every single man who has ever been incel is a rapist/monster/murderer/child-eater/goblin/demon, it wouldn't change whether or not the science says those things, would it?

So while you're free to talk about whatever you want of course, the actual science and implications were more what I was interested in discussing.
Hey guess what? Names the groups give themselves usually sound far more innocuous than their beliefs would seem. I'm all for men having rights, but fuck no, I would never join MRA. I'm also for life, but no way am I a pro-lifer. Yes, incell, the word, means involuntary celibate. But the group itself is deeper and far more toxic than that.

So now, ok, you want to talk about the science. What about it?


Edit, I thought of another one. I'm a person who absolutely is for the ethical treatment of animals. But fuck PETA.
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Last edited by snfaulkner; 07-26-2019 at 04:39 PM.
  #66  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:37 PM
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But inceldom is just not succeeding at dating and being celibate despite trying. That's the exact definition of the words "involuntarily celibate".
And the exact defintion of "pro-life" is "opposes the death penalty for adults too." The label is a lie - or at least tells nowhere near all of the story.

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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
I think it means involuntarily celibate.
And nobody can stop you from hewing to wrongness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
Even if everything you say about incels is true and every single man who has ever been incel is a rapist/monster/murderer/child-eater/goblin/demon, it wouldn't change whether or not the science says those things, would it?

So while you're free to talk about whatever you want of course, the actual science and implications were more what I was interested in discussing.
Incels have this thing called "looksmaxing", which is where the misguided fuckers think that if they alter their appearance in the specific correct way it will turn their faces into hypnosis devices which will force women to fuck them. That women aren't yet forced to fuck them is not proof that looksmaxing is the stupidest thing since the square wheel; it is instead proof that they haven't looksmaxed hard enough.

As noted, they're not reading their cites correctly; they're instead reading their cites through the lens of "can I use this cite to support my retarded notion that women are as shallow as puddles and care about nothing, nothing but looks, status, and money?" This means that the implications of the cites are, nay, must be either, "god, incels don't understand their own cites" or "god, this so-called science is shit!"

Because proper science properly understood doesn't lead to obviously false conclusions, such as their belief that only super-attractive men can get the attention of women.
  #67  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:37 PM
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In your amateur, uninvested, workaday research into the question when you weren't pursuing other interests that you were totally like, take-it-or-leave-it about, did you happen to come up with any information about who those killers were, and who they killed, and why?

Did you see anything about how the incel community at large reacted to those killings, and what they have to say about the killers now?

The only ones I know about are Elliot Rodger who killed his roommates and I think two women and Alek Minassian who drove the bus into a crowd. I think Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even the word "incel" - I remember seeing he posted on bodybuilding.com. Alek Minassian supposedly made a post about 4chan and some incel memes. I read he was very mentally ill and used to make animal sounds while walking down the hallway at school.

Honestly murderers are not something I spend time reading/thinking/talking about because it's depressing and disturbing. I don't read about what John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy did either. I don't like true crime subjects in general.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 04:37 PM.
  #68  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:40 PM
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But inceldom is just not succeeding at dating and being celibate despite trying.
From the article linked in Post #56:
Quote:
Violently misogynist rhetoric is widespread in incel groups, where members routinely talk about a movement to “strike back” at women for depriving them of sex ― something to which many feel entitled. Thousands of lonely men like Eric are drawn in by the allure of camaraderie. But the distorting, echo chamber quality of the internet can fuel radicalization within these networks.

“You feel like brothers to me,” one man wrote to the forum Incels.me in April. “Never before have I felt so loved, or surrounded by people like me.” As is common in the group, his posts became angrier over time ― shifting from queries such as “How do I make friends online?” to lurid descriptions of violent and sexually depraved fantasies, and a threat to commit mass murder. According to his posts, he’s 18 years old. He could not be reached for an interview.
Quote:
Your definition can most easily be proven wrong by the fact that there are people who claim to be "female incels":
https://www.reddit.com/r/Trufemcels/
Emphasis on "claim". For all you know, those are GIRLs.
  #69  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:40 PM
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To me that just sounds like you want a bogeyman to rail against rather than that you're actually trying to understand what's happening in the world.
I'm interested in the understanding the nature of the world and humanity. So I am interested in the points that were raised and summarized in that page.
Fine. Let's take the scientific approach. What's more likely?:
a) all the women in the world had a meeting and decided that there will be a certain group of men that they will not fuck under any circumstances.
-or-
b) there is a certain group of men with serious character flaws that simply are not desirable to the overwhelming majority of women.
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  #70  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:42 PM
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It's really weird how women do not like to date men who are angry, bitter, self absorbed and generally dislike women except as a place to put their penis.

I guess we'll never know exactly why women feel this way. Total mystery.
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Old 07-26-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
It's really weird how women do not like to date men who are angry, bitter, self absorbed and generally dislike women except as a place to put their penis.

I guess we'll never know exactly why women feel this way. Total mystery.
Yes, but science!
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  #72  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:46 PM
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But, like the other thread, these incels/MRAs aren't scientifically wrong. It's just a matter of whether they can win society over, and so far they have a tough uphill slog.
The moon landing hoaxers scientifically know more about 99% of space flight than I do. It's just a matter of whether they can win society over. So far they have a tough uphill slog.

Unfortunately, I have no grounds to comment because I do not have Ph. D in astrophysics. I guess we'll never know if men landed on the moon.
  #73  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:46 PM
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It's really weird how women do not like to date men who are angry, bitter, self absorbed and generally dislike women except as a place to put their penis.

I guess we'll never know exactly why women feel this way. Total mystery.
Broads, man.
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  #74  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:49 PM
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As a point of reference for the OP, who is new around here.

We tend to get a lot of this shit where people have found something they like/find interesting and then they come here and do a basic dump;

a> Read these 42 articles with cites and then you can discuss this with me.
b> Watch these 87 youtube videos and then let's discuss.

We've seen it too many times and no, we're not interested in doing people's homework for them or watching a bunch of videos to see what the OP is on about. If that's a problem for you (and it seems to be for most of these types), tough shit. You're asking a bunch of total strangers from all walks of life to spend hours looking at something they may not be interested in before they can talk to you and you're not giving us an actual discussion, you're telling us to do homework first before you're willing to discuss it.

If someone asked us to watch a bunch of videos on any random subject, from earthworms to nuclear physics, with zero initial arguments or information, they are, every damned time, going to get the same "oh go fuck yourself" response from people here. Ain't no one got time for that shit.


A better approach is to talk specifics and bring cites. To lay out your argument, your points FIRST and then invite discussion.

Eventually, you'll notice that a lot of "Hey, watch this video <link> and discuss!" posts get closed or even cornfielded IMMEDIATELY.

If you want a better response, then do better with your initial post.
  #75  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
The only ones I know about are Elliot Rodger who killed his roommates and I think two women and Alek Minassian who drove the bus into a crowd. I think Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even the word "incel" - I remember seeing he posted on bodybuilding.com. Alek Minassian supposedly made a post about 4chan and some incel memes. I read he was very mentally ill and used to make animal sounds while walking down the hallway at school.

Honestly murderers are not something I spend time reading/thinking/talking about because it's depressing and disturbing. I don't read about what John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy did either. I don't like true crime subjects in general.
Cool, cool. So, since neither of us are like super into it or anything. Probably neither of us knew that Rodger

Quote:
explained that he wanted to punish women for rejecting him, and punish sexually active men because he envied them. After uploading the video, Rodger e-mailed a lengthy autobiographical manuscript to some of his acquaintances, his therapist and several family members. The document, titled "My Twisted World: The Story of Elliot Rodger", was made available on the Internet and became widely known as his manifesto. In it, he described his childhood, family conflicts, frustration over not being able to find a girlfriend, his hatred of women, his contempt for couples (especially interracial couples), and his plans for what he described as "retribution".


and that video was recorded while he was on his way to a sorority house to shoot the women there. But I just stumbled on that right now! And then weirdly enough, it turns out that

Crazy. Who knows -- if I looked, maybe there would be a fuckton of other stuff out there that I didn't even know about before right now, just like you didn't. Maybe like a lot, enough that later I'll be like hey it's wild that I didn't know anything about this if I knew who incels were.

I've just changed my opinion on incels. They seem like jerks! You too, right? Just two not-at-all-incel guys who don't defend them on the internet now that we know how fucked up they are, that's you and me!
  #76  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:53 PM
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You nailed that on the head, and kudos to you for returning to the thread. And yes, assuming that enormous amount of text is all true or near true, agree, a very interesting read.

But to answer your question, where to go from here, the only alternatives I see are for straight men to find other outlets for sex than women, or forcing women to have sex with men they don't want to- definitely opposed to the latter, not sure about the former?
Those were my thoughts too. Based particularly on the trendlines:

https://incels.wiki/w/images/thumb/1...750px-Aaqa.jpg

There are three outcomes actually:

1) Men find alternative sex outlets than women.
2) Women are forced to have sex with men they don't want.
3) Men go completely without sex or companionship.

#2 is not possible. It does seem correct that enforced monogamy via religion with "no sex before marriage" and enforcing marriage as an institution would have helped level the playing field for men at women's disadvantage in the past, but I see no way to force the world back into that mold and I can't say it would be good even if you could.

#3 does not seem like a good option. I think men are very sexually driven and if you have a whole 28%+ of young men who are sexless it's going to likely lead to more problems and crime in the long run as some of the crazier ones might explode.

#1 seems like the only viable solution and I think sex dolls will eventually need to fill that void. The technology though might take another 20-30 years to become useful so until then I think it's going to get uglier out there.
  #77  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:55 PM
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Cool, cool. So, since neither of us are like super into it or anything. Probably neither of us knew that Rodger



and that video was recorded while he was on his way to a sorority house to shoot the women there. But I just stumbled on that right now! And then weirdly enough, it turns out that



Crazy. Who knows -- if I looked, maybe there would be a fuckton of other stuff out there that I didn't even know about before right now, just like you didn't. Maybe like a lot, enough that later I'll be like hey it's wild that I didn't know anything about this if I knew who incels were.

I've just changed my opinion on incels. They seem like jerks! You too, right? Just two not-at-all-incel guys who don't defend them on the internet now that we know how fucked up they are, that's you and me!
So what about the "femcels" then? Do they do the same things? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that every incel guy (or girl) worships Elliot Rodger.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 04:56 PM.
  #78  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:59 PM
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3) Men go completely without sex or companionship.


#3 does not seem like a good option. I think men are very sexually driven and if you have a whole 28%+ of young men who are sexless it's going to likely lead to more problems and crime in the long run as some of the crazier ones might explode.

You have a hand. Use it.

Lots of humans go without companionship and regular sex with partners without going bonkers or harming others. It's when you become convinced that it is your right to have sex with other people that YOU become a danger to the people around you. You (generic you) have no fucking rights to harm or impose upon anyone else. Period.
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Old 07-26-2019, 04:59 PM
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So what about the "femcels" then? Do they do the same things? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that every incel guy (or girl) worships Elliot Rodger.
I'm super dumb and for the life of me I can't figure out what the fuck your point is!

So many crazy things are happening today.

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 07-26-2019 at 05:00 PM.
  #80  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:02 PM
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I'm super dumb and for the life of me I can't figure out what the fuck your point is!

So many crazy things are happening today.

Well I just went to the femcels site and here's a post from one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trufemcels/...ny_easier_for/

I just realized life doesn't get any easier for single females the older we get (self.Trufemcels)

I am almost 26 and while I understand I'm not over 30, life isn't what I expected to be.

I still remember my childhood. When I was a kid I'd always assume I'd be a cool teenager. That I would have curves and boobs since my mom had both and that I'd also be tall (from my dad's side. Haven't seen him since 1999). Well by the time I got to be about 15 I realized neither was going to happen. I seemed to have drawn the short end of the genetic stick. I got stuck with my dad's naturally thin figure and mom's short height without the boobs or curves. Insult to injury I also have big feet for my height. My mom is the same way but her body masks that fact. I was and still am a hairy girl. I didn't reach 100 lbs until I was 16 and even then I didn't fill out until I was darn near 20.

I'm also a bit awkward. My mom always assured me I was beautiful and that one day I'd be a model and everyone would envy me. Well of course I have the size down but there's no market in the modeling world for a thin girl barely pushing 100 lbs. So of course it didn't happen. I also assumed that when I was a teen I'd have a boyfriend. Then I'd later assume I eventually would have someone in my mid 20s. After all, people havd been telling me ad nauseam that I'd meet the right person and have a family one day.

Well, I'm 26 in a few months and have no social life. Same as high school. I was also stupid enough to fool myself that a guy who crushed on me in high school and talked to me in spite of the fact of being found repulsive by eveyone else in school would be waiting for me. And I based this thought on some dumb dream I'd had of him getting me pregnant and him looking up at my bulging stomach. I'd had this dream in 2010. And it's one of three dreams in my entire life that I remember so vividly. So I assumed this as some sort of sign.

I messaged him on FB and we talked a bit and tried to subltly flirt. But it's been 3 days now. No response.

I guess hollywood needs to tell more stories of ugly and awkward girls who never grow out of that and lead sad lives. My family was also dysfunctional so I have no close knit family to turn to for support. I mainly have my uncle who I'm close with but we are long distance and he suffers from depression a bit.

At this point I really feel there's not much hope for a love life for me. I am making good money and I get to pursue my passion but what's the point when you're getting old alone? I always thought that I'd never want to grow old. Especially if it means a few more decades of working and going home for the most part.


It doesn't say anything about misogyny, mass murder, Elliot Rodger, or anything like that.

I also note that the trendline from the Washington Post shows female celibacy is rising too though much slower than men. If we are heading for a Japan trajectory both men and women will have much higher celibacy rates in a few years.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:03 PM
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I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that every incel guy (or girl) worships Elliot Rodger.
Also from the article linked in Post #56:
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After a man went on a rampage in Toronto on Sunday, killing a young woman and a 10-year-old girl, incel groups erupted in excitement over the possibility that he was a fellow incel.

“Another hERo?” one man asked the forum Incels.me, emphasizing “ER” in reference to Elliot Rodger, a self-proclaimed incel who killed himself and six others in 2014. “ERs need to get lessons from ISIS on how to kill a ton of people at once,” said another, apparently critiquing the Toronto shooter’s “low” death toll. ISIS claimed responsibility for the attack, but police said there’s no evidence to support that claim.

Rodger, who was 22 years old at the time of his murder-suicide in Isla Vista, California, spent his short adult life dreaming of ways to punish women for inflicting his “sexual starvation.” He belonged to multiple misogynist forums that, he said, “confirmed many of the theories I had about how wicked and degenerate women really are.”

Rodger is a virtual martyr among radical incels, who cheer each other on as they fantasize about raping and killing women, and emulating his massacre. So far, at least three men who reportedly described him in glorifying terms online have gone on killing sprees. Extremism experts warn that as incel groups proliferate, the threat of another mass murder grows.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:04 PM
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If we are heading for a Japan trajectory both men and women will have much higher celibacy rates in a few years.
If true (and you've done a piss poor job so far arguing your points), so what? Why is this inherently other people's problem?
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:05 PM
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By and large, yes. For instance, one part claims that white/Caucasian skin is generally considered more attractive. The cited source says as much. https://www.livescience.com/5860-att...kin-color.html
This doesn't tell us about inborn/genetic/evolutionary preferences. Culture and media in most of the world has had a Euro-centric standard of beauty for many decades, if not longer.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:07 PM
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It doesn't say anything about misogyny, mass murder, Elliot Rodger, or anything like that.

I also note that the trendline from the Washington Post shows female celibacy is rising too though much slower than men. If we are heading for a Japan trajectory both men and women will have much higher celibacy rates in a few years.
And?

I mean, you linked to a femcel community. I clicked on your link. Know what it says there?

Quote:
Why don't femcels allow date requests from incels?

The incel community at large welcomes rhetoric housing misogyny, hatred, and violence.

In addition to their very negative narrative about women, they also lack nuance and love to troll.
That's what it says there. So what the fuck are you talking about? Is this a thread about how incels aren't dangerous selfish scumbags and are actually making a lot of sense, or is it a thread about something else? You said people are "biased" against incels. I have demonstrated why. What does the fact that there's some other subcommunity that also knows that incels are dangerous selfish scumbags do to promote your position that incels aren't dangerous selfish scumbags?
  #85  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:07 PM
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It sounds like people have a lot of preconceived biases that are preventing them from even evaluating the evidence provided. I am not an incel myself, but yet I can look at the science and review the articles and from what I've evaluated it has been perfectly sound. If you have any interest in how human sexuality works, you will find the information interesting at the minimum.

Almost every entry comes from a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Almost all are freely available journal articles on the web if you search on Google "journal article title pdf". You check easily if there is any distortion. At least of all the ones I've clicked through I have found no significant distortions. Each section includes quotes directly from the articles, for example.

I am not sure what being an incel has to do with sex slaves or any other nonsense. The word incel solely means "involuntarily celibate". There are crazy people among every group or demographic.

I find this information interesting because everyone is always saying "incels are wrong about everything", yet clearly there's an overwhelming amount of science that actually backs them on most of what they say. My impression is now that people just don't like incels so they don't care if they're right or wrong, which is being validated by many of the responses here so far.
From the analysis so far, the link jumps between mundane statements of fact and ridiculous, counterfactual supposition, with no differentiation between the two, as in post #38. Sounds like crap science -- people taking mundane scientific facts and extrapolating these into utter bullshit.
  #86  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:08 PM
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So what about the "femcels" then? Do they do the same things? I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing that every incel guy (or girl) worships Elliot Rodger.
I'll just start out by saying that this is pure speculation, because I sure as fuck am not going to go digging around in incel forum to find a so-called "femcel" and then try and read enough of their posts to do an accurate psychological profile on them.

But, just speculating, a few possibilities come to mind.

1) They're fake. GIRLs or just made up as a way for Incels to have something to point to and say "So what about the "femcels" then?"

2) They've flipped the belief system. As best I can tell from what I've heard, the core Incel belief system is "[Other gender] is divided between shallow brainless robots who only sex with the cream of the crop, and hideous scum that's not worth my time. [My gender] has a bunch of better-looking people than me and I'm jealous of them. My only chance of success would be to physically transform myself into something perfect (and I might try to do so) - or alternatively since I can't succeed, it would also be awesome if all these other people who I've decided are excluding me would just die."

As a basic belief system, there's nothing specific about the genders that makes it so the genders couldn't be flipped. Which would make "femcels" just a bunch of bitter sexless women who are sliding in next to the bitter sexless men and joining in the lament. Each of them refuses to date The Ugly, and each of them considers themselves The Ugly, so the two populations could plausibly exist alongside each other, each turning up their nose at the other. Both sides could plausibly admire Elliot Rodger, becuase he wanted to kill both genders - Incels believe the pretty people of both genders are against them.


Presuming, again, that "Femcels" exist at all.

ETA: hmm, looks like you actually posted a link to a femcel forum in the time since I started responding. Looks like your link doesn't help your position much, either.

Last edited by begbert2; 07-26-2019 at 05:12 PM.
  #87  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:08 PM
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By and large, yes. For instance, one part claims that white/Caucasian skin is generally considered more attractive. The cited source says as much. https://www.livescience.com/5860-att...kin-color.html
You misrepresented this study. You have to read more than the headline. They asked 50 white people what hue of skin they found most healthy, which was white skin with a slight yellowish tinge. That in no way equates to your assertion that "white/Caucasian skin is generally considered more attractive."

I didn't go to that incel site, but I imagine they did much the same thing by either misunderstanding a study or by figuring no one would check.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:11 PM
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If true (and you've done a piss poor job so far arguing your points), so what? Why is this inherently other people's problem?
Thanks. I didn't really come with any point to argue except that it does appear there is a large volume of evidence backing most of the points incels make eg. on race, height, hypergamy, autism, personality, and where society is going.

Why should anyone care about anything that happens in our society? Maybe because we're all living in it? Let's say hypothetically that inceldom is a state associated with mass murder. Then shouldn't we be concerned if the stats show more and more men are becoming involuntarily celibate? Or worry about how we're going to address that as a society?

I notice Japan has managed to attain massive celibacy levels without much social discord. I am not sure the West will be able to do this. I would guess Japan managed to do this because they are more stoic or withdrawn people culturally by nature. Whereas in the West we have a culture of worshiping sex. I once read that sex has replaced God in the West and I think that's probably true for a lot of people.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 05:12 PM.
  #89  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:15 PM
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And?

I mean, you linked to a femcel community. I clicked on your link. Know what it says there?



That's what it says there. So what the fuck are you talking about? Is this a thread about how incels aren't dangerous selfish scumbags and are actually making a lot of sense, or is it a thread about something else? You said people are "biased" against incels. I have demonstrated why. What does the fact that there's some other subcommunity that also knows that incels are dangerous selfish scumbags do to promote your position that incels aren't dangerous selfish scumbags?

So female incels aren't incels? This is getting ridiculous. This is what I mean by not liking culture wars. It's always just a never ending rabbit hole of names and labels that mean virtually nothing because people dissect them into oblivion. It's like music genres when someone says "I like posthardcore shoegaze." Sorry at that point you lost me.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:18 PM
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Just to recap: you linked to a bunch of people who say incels are dangerous people, which is a true statement. I don't give a fuck about femcels one way or the other. The definitional omphaloskepsis, as a result, would seem to very much be a personal problem for you to resolve, as the person who literally created an account to support your thematic presentation here about how 'we' need a plan for the future now that incels have cracked the code.

Again: what's your point? Culture wars? Names and labels? What? I'm talking about the people you brought up. What are you talking about?
  #91  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:19 PM
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It's not a big mystery -- high sex drive + no sexual partner + loneliness = extreme bitterness and anger. I remember this bitterness and anger -- my sophomore year in college, I had very little romantic success and dipped my toes into this sort of these feelings, though this was long before incels were a group that talked on the internet (this was in the 90s). I remember feeling hopeless, angry, and bitter, and often those feelings were directed at women.

But it was bullshit. I wasn't owed anything, and I wasn't being a nice, decent, and respectful person. I might have thought I was, but I wasn't, really. I wasn't treating women and girls like people with their own thoughts and desires. Once I started to do this -- truly, not in a fake way that's meant to hide objectifying intentions -- I got into a relationship. And it didn't take long to realize that there actually are plenty of women and girls who would love to date someone who was truly decent and respectful.

I was an overweight, pimple-faced teenager who looked 16 when I was 20... but once I started to pair actual respect and decency with interesting conversation, I started having romantic success. Today's incels are those that never figured that out, and still don't actually have respect for women, and still feel that anger and bitterness. Why would a woman want to go out with such a person?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 07-26-2019 at 05:20 PM.
  #92  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:20 PM
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Or worry about how we're going to address that as a society?
Bullshit concern trolling.

You are already starting from the position that a lack of sex must lead people to do terrible things in society.

Well, there's already a lot of evidence, historical and current, that this isn't the case.

If there is a conclusion to be drawn from available evidence, it's that there's a group of people out there using a misleading name for themselves and casting blame everywhere else but the one place that matters.

It does no good to use flawed assumptions to solve real problems.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Instead, start with the bunch of bitter, sociopathic complainers. As already explained, many already have access to sex. But it doesn't match their own imagined automatic entitlement to women they consider conventionally beautiful. Sex dolls aren't going to fix that. Instead, they'll make up some excuse about how it's not the same thing or not an adequate substitute.

Start with your garbage assumptions about the problem and work up from there instead of drawing garbage conclusions.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 07-26-2019 at 05:21 PM.
  #93  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:24 PM
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Bullshit concern trolling.

You are already starting from the position that a lack of sex must lead people to do terrible things in society.

Well, there's already a lot of evidence, historical and current, that this isn't the case.

If there is a conclusion to be drawn from available evidence, it's that there's a group of people out there using a misleading name for themselves and casting blame everywhere else but the one place that matters.

It does no good to use flawed assumptions to solve real problems.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Instead, start with the bunch of bitter, sociopathic complainers. As already explained, many already have access to sex. But it doesn't match their own imagined automatic entitlement to women they consider conventionally beautiful. Sex dolls aren't going to fix that. Instead, they'll make up some excuse about how it's not the same thing or not an adequate substitute.

Start with your garbage assumptions about the problem and work up from there instead of drawing garbage conclusions.
I actually think that Japan has proven you can have massive levels of celibacy without problems. According to the link there "42% of men and 44% of women 18-35 years old and unmarried in Japan are now virgins".

So I concede I didn't think about in my post above where I listed three possible outcomes, but the fourth possible outcome is we change our culture so that we can be like Japan.

Japan has managed this rise in celibacy without too many problems. I don't know if there have been any incel related problems over there but I don't think so. I think they just have the hikikimori who are men who have withdrawn completely from society, but they have done it peacefully without any associated hate or outbursts. They are suffering from a dying birth rate but that is a quiet problem.

I presume this is due to cultural differences but I don't know. I don't know why celibacy is such a seemingly different experience for Japanese vs. Western men. Or maybe we're just not hearing about the problems they're having over there?

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 05:28 PM.
  #94  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:27 PM
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Thanks. I didn't really come with any point to argue except that it does appear there is a large volume of evidence backing most of the points incels make eg. on race, height, hypergamy, autism, personality, and where society is going.
There's more a large volume of evidence that Incels are fucking up their science and none of it says what they claim it does, but I will concede that physically attractive people have something of an advantage in the dating game, and an even bigger advantage in the "I want to have casual sex and then immediately discard the woman and move on to the next one" game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
Why should anyone care about anything that happens in our society? Maybe because we're all living in it? Let's say hypothetically that inceldom is a state associated with mass murder. Then shouldn't we be concerned if the stats show more and more men are becoming involuntarily celibate? Or worry about how we're going to address that as a society?

I notice Japan has managed to attain massive celibacy levels without much social discord. I am not sure the West will be able to do this. I would guess Japan managed to do this because they are more stoic or withdrawn people culturally by nature. Whereas in the West we have a culture of worshiping sex. I once read that sex has replaced God in the West and I think that's probably true for a lot of people.
Japan's advantage probably comes from the fact that involuntary celibacy isn't actually the problem, it's Incels that are the problem. For example, I am involuntarily celibate - given my druthers I'd be married to the woman I love(d), but she differed with me on religion and it didn't work out. I'm not an Incel though - that's a specific hate group of which I'm not a member.

All things considered, though I do get a little sad now and then (and though I do choke the chicken now and then), I still consider myself a pretty laid back guy and think the country would still do pretty okay if 50% of the population were me. I don't have the bitter jealous hatred that Incels teach each other is justified and should be acted on.

Last edited by begbert2; 07-26-2019 at 05:28 PM. Reason: typo
  #95  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:33 PM
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As a point of reference for the OP, who is new around here.
Another assertion on which one is advised not to wager anything of significant value.
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Old 07-26-2019, 05:33 PM
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In one of the first articles when Googling femcels, is that many of them are guys pretending to be girls. But even if that weren't the case, good on femcels for not settling for incels.

Only when incels (and femcels from what I've read) look at themselves, at their personalities and personal hygiene, will they ever have a hope of attracting a woman. While they continue to blame women for not being attracted to them, it will only get worse. This incel world isn't only bad for women, it's bad for the men who refuse to face reality, too.
  #97  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:34 PM
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Thanks. I didn't really come with any point to argue except that it does appear there is a large volume of evidence backing most of the points incels make eg. on race, height, hypergamy, autism, personality, and where society is going.
No, there isn't.
  #98  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:37 PM
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1. "There's a large amount of evidence" doesn't mean jack shit if the evidence is crap or is being distorted. People claim there's a large amount of evidence that the Earth is flat, or that we never landed on the moon. They're full of shit.

2. Society doesn't have any duty to get you laid.

3. As I pointed out from the survey, the #1 thing women were looking for was KINDNESS. Incels aren't exactly brimming with that and as Sir Andy of the Eyes points out, a lot of us start out as oversexed, angry kids who don't know how to get laid and eventually grow out of it. How? By NOT being anger and blame driven assholes who drive people away from us.
  #99  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:37 PM
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There's more a large volume of evidence that Incels are fucking up their science and none of it says what they claim it does, but I will concede that physically attractive people have something of an advantage in the dating game, and an even bigger advantage in the "I want to have casual sex and then immediately discard the woman and move on to the next one" game.

Japan's advantage probably comes from the fact that involuntary celibacy isn't actually the problem, it's Incels that are the problem. For example, I am involuntarily celibate - given my druthers I'd be married to the woman I love(d), but she differed with me on religion and it didn't work out. I'm not an Incel though - that's a specific hate group of which I'm not a member.

All things considered, though I do get a little sad now and then (and though I do choke the chicken now and then), I still consider myself a pretty laid back guy and think the country would still do pretty okay if 50% of the population were me. I don't have the bitter jealous hatred that Incels teach each other is justified and should be acted on.
Well I think what you're saying is "violent and hateful incels are the problem", because:

- Elliot Rodger committed his crime before there was even a common label "incel" and mostly posted on bodybuilding.com so he couldn't have been part of an "incel" hate group if one didn't yet exist.
- In the recent BBC documentary I watched 2/3 of the guys were similar to how you describe - just quiet withdrawn sad guys who weren't bitter or hateful at all.

Again, there also does exist communities of female incels. I posted an example of one above who just seemed like a normal sad lonely girl. So saying incel = hateful misogynist as an automatic assignment does not make sense.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 05:38 PM.
  #100  
Old 07-26-2019, 05:38 PM
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No, there isn't.
And I'm still very unclear on what points he think they are trying to make.
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