View Poll Results: Pick your Poison
George W. Bush 33 27.73%
Donald Trump 86 72.27%
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  #51  
Old 05-27-2019, 09:47 PM
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He's fortunate he didn't have Cheney as Veep; he'd probably have gotten himself chained up in the White House basement, or an 'accidental' shotgun discharge to the face (with something more substantial than bird shot) by now.
We're fortunate too. Trump with a coolly efficient political operator pushing his malformed ideas to completion would be even more terrifying than our current reality.

Speaking of which, what the hell does Mike Pence do? He pops up here and there to deliver a speech or something, but compared to our last three VPs, Pence seems to me to be a relative hermit.
  #52  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:13 PM
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Yeah, several years ago I visited Austria. And it was interesting seeing a place that had been the center of the world, and is now a backwater. There were lots of reminders of how important the capital of the holy Roman empire, really, the center of Europe, used to be. And now? It's got a lot of nice art and pretty buildings. Lots of history, some more depressing than other.
Just because it's not the capital of the Holy Roman Empire which has not existed for hundreds of years, doesn't mean it's a "backwater." Austria is better off right now than it has ever been at any point in history.
  #53  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:52 PM
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there's no question that trump is the more odious human being.
I can't believe that I am actually defending "Dubya" (which I am, in a way) but I'm afraid I have to agree with you on this.

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Which is the worse president is a hard call.
Both absolutely terrible. Those who are opining that "Dubya" did more to actually harm people than Donny Dimwit has? Just give D.D. more time (which he will have since morals- and ethics-free Republicans in the Senate will NEVER convict him IF the House Dems decide to impeach 'im).

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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Yeah, several years ago I visited Austria. And it was interesting seeing a place that had been the center of the world, and is now a backwater. There were lots of reminders of how important the capital of the holy Roman empire, really, the center of Europe, used to be. And now? It's got a lot of nice art and pretty buildings. Lots of history, some more depressing than other.

That's where I see the US headed, and trump is why.

It's not just our moral standing or political leadership. Trump's immigration policy is killing higher education. The best and brightest Chinese are going to graduate school in China, not the US, and colleges are already failing due to the reduced revenue. And that's going to feed into our industry going forward (or not feed into it, really.) China is poised to replace is as a technology leader. It's already taken the lead in manufacturing. That's obviously not all trump, but he's accelerated the process, possibly by decades.

But Bush did kill a lot of people. Which is worse, destroying your own country, or killing thousands of Innocents? Oh, and there was the torture, and the Patriot act. Bush certainly created the path for trump to follow.

I'm leaning towards Bush, but it's not an easy call.
I long ago gave up in trusting Republicans to provide us all with a reasonable, competent presidential candidate. I don't see that changing any time soon.
  #54  
Old 05-28-2019, 02:05 AM
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Trump has been in office for about 17 agonizing months.
Trump must be doing a VERY bad job, as apparently under his leadership edumacational standards have dropped so far that people are unable to count to 28.

Last edited by MarvinKitFox; 05-28-2019 at 02:05 AM.
  #55  
Old 05-28-2019, 08:03 AM
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Just because it's not the capital of the Holy Roman Empire which has not existed for hundreds of years, doesn't mean it's a "backwater." Austria is better off right now than it has ever been at any point in history.
I'm sure it's a nice enough place to live. But what's it important to? You don't hear about the Austrian elections, or how they will change EU strategy. You don't hear about scientific or medical breakthroughs out of Austria. You rarely hear about Austria at all. Well, I don't, anyway.
  #56  
Old 05-28-2019, 09:04 AM
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Just because it's not the capital of the Holy Roman Empire which has not existed for hundreds of years, doesn't mean it's a "backwater." Austria is better off right now than it has ever been at any point in history.
Compared to what it was, yes, it's a backwater. It was overtaken by Berlin when the Austro-Hungarian empire folded, and Vienna is just the capital of Austria, not an entire central European empire. When I was in Vienna in 1973 for a language course I was struck by the fact that it had far more of a post-imperial ambience than London did, and had a feel of being a museum city.

Austria better off today? Surely it would have been relatively richeu with an empire at its disposal? Otherwise you could say that just every European co8ntry is better off, since AFAIK none of them are currently occupied by somebody else, and that was definitely not the case in the past.
  #57  
Old 05-28-2019, 09:11 AM
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Let's hear it for, uh, Austria


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I'm sure it's a nice enough place to live. But what's it important to? You don't hear about the Austrian elections, or how they will change EU strategy. You don't hear about scientific or medical breakthroughs out of Austria. You rarely hear about Austria at all. Well, I don't, anyway.
What you hear about any country depends greatly on what you look out for. Austria generally does not hit the news often, like all small countries. Politically, you can be titilalled by the Strache affair and the forthcoming elections. No men est omen. The current chancellor is called Kurz, meaning short. As in his term in office, probably.
  #58  
Old 05-28-2019, 09:15 AM
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Trump wins 3 to 1 against Dubya? I'll give another vote for Dubya to help even things up. Not because I love the First Cockatoo, but mainly because he hasn't started any wars. Yet? If ho does, I'll back-pedal furiously and change my vote.

It's a tough call, but Dubya actually started some wars and got the Patriot Act through. Trump owes so much to Dubya, and so does the world. The question in my mind is whether Trump will be the worse in the long run and that he has set things in motion that will not be obvious for a while but then cause a blow-up. His "diplomacy", for one.
  #59  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:29 AM
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As someone pointed out above, the damage that Trump has done gets more attention but it's more superficial and cosmetic. The economy is still good, Trump hasn't started any major foreign wars, etc. Trump vs. Bush is the difference between a visible skin rash and a hidden deep cancerous tumor.
  #60  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:15 PM
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Bush may have started a war, but Trump ended one. I guess we should be grateful that it took so little bloodshed to put a Russian puppet government in place?
  #61  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:37 PM
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This is tough. Torture and the Iraq War--the biggest unforced international policy disaster in U.S. history, the blowback from which we will suffer for decades--are huge.

But Trump is possibly the worst human being to be president. Comparable to Andrew Jackson, who was an actual murderer.
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  #62  
Old 05-28-2019, 02:53 PM
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It's like asking which is worse: AIDS or cryptococcal meningitis?
  #63  
Old 05-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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If I had the choice of living in Austria in the glory days of the Holy Roman Empire where I could die from an abcessed tooth, had no running water or refrigeration, would have to rely on a horse for transportation if I was even lucky enough to be able to afford one, and oh on the plus side, might have the chance to see really amazing art or hear really beautiful music if I had the miniscule chance of being invited to a nobleman's house....or living in Austria today...let's just say this would not be a difficult choice.

The word "backwater" implies things like "primitive", "poor", "adverse living conditions", and "geographically isolated from places of greater significance." None of these things apply to modern day Austria.
  #64  
Old 05-28-2019, 04:27 PM
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Trump. I would take a third Dubya term in a heartbeat compared to the orange buffoon now cozying up to tyrants, doing his best to gut ACDA, attacking the free press, provoking a needless trade war with China and demonizing anyone who speaks out against him. Dubya, for all his many faults, didn't do that.
  #65  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
Trump has been in office for about 17 agonizing months.
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Originally Posted by MarvinKitFox View Post
Trump must be doing a VERY bad job, as apparently under his leadership edumacational standards have dropped so far that people are unable to count to 28.
Nah, he's right. Seventeen months were agonizing, the rest have been excruciating.
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  #66  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:04 AM
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If I had the choice of living in Austria in the glory days of the Holy Roman Empire where I could die from an abcessed tooth, had no running water or refrigeration, would have to rely on a horse for transportation if I was even lucky enough to be able to afford one, and oh on the plus side, might have the chance to see really amazing art or hear really beautiful music if I had the miniscule chance of being invited to a nobleman's house....or living in Austria today...let's just say this would not be a difficult choice.

The word "backwater" implies things like "primitive", "poor", "adverse living conditions", and "geographically isolated from places of greater significance." None of these things apply to modern day Austria.
here's my first on-line dictionary hit for "backwater":
a part of a river not reached by the current, where the water is stagnant.
"the eels inhabit backwaters"
an isolated or peaceful place.
"a sleepy Midwest backwater"
a place or condition in which no development or progress is taking place.
"the country remained an economic backwater"

no, it doesn't mean primitive, or poor. It does mean "geographically isolated from places of greater significance." And "a place that isn't generating scientific or industrial advances".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brayne Ded View Post
... Austria generally does not hit the news often, like all small countries. ...
And this agrees with my judgement. Austria has become a small country that rarely his the news. It's become a backwater. And yet, it's a rather pleasant place, despite all the history and mouldering power lying around. It gives me hope for where the US might be headed.
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