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  #51  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
... Right: America was fucking perfect until these uppity minorities, females, and environmental extremists starting pissing all over the sacred Constitution as written by our forever infallible founding fathers. Either you display unquestioning patriotism as we demand and that you do so whenever and however we demand it or you are an enemy of the people and you should be eliminated.
I'd be rather surprised if you could find a quote from some high-ranking elected Republican, like say a Governor or something, that expressed this sentiment.
  #52  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:32 AM
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...Let me ask OP what he thinks about "Truth isn't truth".
It sounds like a topic for another thread.
  #53  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:52 AM
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I'm going to ask some questions, but I think my posts are invisible, so I don't really expect answers.
No, your posts are not invisible.

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I think we agree that the phrasing was quite poor and that's why he backtracked the very next day. Right?
I would guess that one of his aides said something to him along the lines of "you just wrecked your shot at the 2020 presidential election" shortly after he left the stage, and at that point he probably realized just how bad what he'd done was and started worked on a plan to backtrack ASAP. I think saying "the phrasing was quite poor" (or that his comment was "inartful") doesn't really capture the extreme idiocy of what he did, but for purposes of our discussion I'll agree with this.


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Do we also agree that the actual context is a response to Trump's Make America Great Again, implying a return to, uh, when? What era are we trying to return to? Cuomo's response seems to me to be, well, pick your era, but America wasn't living up to its ideals. There was Jim Crow, rampant sexism, anti-gay laws, serious drug crises, spikes in crime. So, "America wasn't that great" in that context may mean, hey, so many people were left out of the American experience, it's hard to call it great. What do you think?
I agree that it was at least in part a rebuttal to President Trump's MAGA campaign slogan. I'll note that you appear to be soft-pedaling what the Governor actually said by leaving out the word "never", but I think you've more-or-less captured the point that he was stupidly / badly trying to make.
  #54  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:57 AM
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HD, do you believe America was great during the period of Jim Crow laws?
My understanding is that "the period of Jim Crow laws" encompasses our involvement in World War 2. While I certainly wouldn't point to Jim Crow laws as an example of something "great" America did, I would put our role in defeating the Nazis and Imperial Japan in that "great" category, and thus would have no qualms answering your question in the affirmative.
  #55  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:05 AM
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Cuomo was in a difficult position. Much of the progressive Left is based on grievance politics - blacks, gays, feminists, people who want the government to pay them for doing whatever they want - and if Cuomo says anything about America's greatness, it will offend against their grievances.

It is hard to appeal to the far Left, and mainstream America, at the same time. So Cuomo has to oscillate between "America was never great" and "no one questions that America is great" and hope nobody notices.

Regards,
Shodan
  #56  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:16 AM
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...Let me ask OP what he thinks about "Truth isn't truth".
It sounds like a topic for another thread.
Oh, I think the present thread is already more than often for queries of this ilk. Anyway, I hope it flatters you to know that it was specifically your opinion that mattered to me.

Won't you tell us? Please? Pretty please?
  #57  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:22 AM
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Context.

Let's throw in that we were one of the last nations to eliminate slavery and Jim Crow laws existed until relatively recently.
That's just scratching the surface of what keeps the nation from true greatness.
Trump's idea of greatness is a huge step backwards.

I think anyone born here should consider themselves lucky. The USA is the best country in the world and our bill of rights is still a gold standard.

Rather than focus on stuff that happened 50-300 years ago, I think the nation is better off looking at how we have changed for the better.

America is viewed as one of the greatest nations in the world today. I do understand that some who live here hate it. That is their right, and they are also free to leave. Yet we seldom see that. Gee, I wonder why.
  #58  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:25 AM
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Oh, I think the present thread is already more than often for queries of this ilk. Anyway, I hope it flatters you to know that it was specifically your opinion that mattered to me.

Won't you tell us? Please? Pretty please?
It would flatter me even more if you'd start another thread to solicit my opinion about other quotes by other people. They are not the topic of this one.
  #59  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:47 AM
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I'll admit that many supporters of the nearly all-white grievance party might be too challenged to understand the point Cuomo was making. Phony patriots rejoice over jingoistic nonsense like the "greatness" of country. People who actually give a shit about their fellow human beings strive to make it better.

Of course, in the age of zero attention spans, out of context quotes like the one in the pathetic OP will resonate with dingbats who think putting a magnetic "support the troops" sticker on the good ol' SUV is an actual act of patriotism.
  #60  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:14 AM
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It would flatter me even more if you'd start another thread to solicit my opinion about other quotes by other people. They are not the topic of this one.
OK. Since you asked politely, here's your thread.
  #61  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:24 AM
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How would you define it?
Personally, I probably wouldn't. I think "greatness" is a nebulous term that's usually used to evoke emotional responses. There are terms out there that are more subject to empirical measurement.
  #62  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:50 AM
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OK. Since you asked politely, here's your thread.
Sorry, I strive to not post in the Pit (I genuinely thought you were already aware of this). Perhaps you could try again in one of the other forums, or this one.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-21-2018 at 10:52 AM.
  #63  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:13 AM
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I think anyone born here should consider themselves lucky. The USA is the best country in the world and our bill of rights is still a gold standard.

Rather than focus on stuff that happened 50-300 years ago, I think the nation is better off looking at how we have changed for the better.

America is viewed as one of the greatest nations in the world today. I do understand that some who live here hate it. That is their right, and they are also free to leave. Yet we seldom see that. Gee, I wonder why.
I'm probably going to regret this, but here we go...

"The USA is the best country in the world..." By what measure? I'm seriously asking the question; what's your yardstick? Right here is a fundamental problem with assessing America's "greatness." Do you measure military strength? Literacy and education rates? GDP? Infant mortality rates? Unemployment rate? Poverty rate? What combinations of all of these? By some of these measures America is quite great, and by others not so much. What is important to you will likely not have equal importance to the person sitting next to you, or across from you, or corresponding with you on the internet.

"Rather than focus on the stuff that happened 50-300 years ago..." First, that's quite a broad range. Second, 50 years ago was only 1968. We were embroiled in Viet Nam, we were in the middle of a heated election cycle, we were only four years into implementation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Fair Housing act had just passed. You think none of those events have an impact on today? Shouldn't the history of these events (and so many more) inform the decisions we make? How about going farther back in time. Don't you think we should look at the era of the Robber Barons, and our military adventures in Central America, and the financial collapse of 1929, and consider how they still impact us, and how to avoid things like that happening again? I know Santayana's quote has become a bit of a chestnut, but it is still meaningful and I, for one, will do my best to not repeat some of our worst mistakes.

"America is viewed as one of the greatest nations in the world today..." I could ask a lot of the same questions again. By whom and by what measure?

For the record, I do consider myself fortunate to have been born in America. But you know what? I probably would consider myself fortunate had I been born in Canada, or the UK, or France, or Sweden, or any number of other places. I don't hate America, but I'm not entirely happy with her, either. I don't leave because I enjoy my home, and my family, and I honestly, truly believe that we can work toward improving every American's lot in life, being a force for good on the global stage, and becoming the model of a democratic republic that we've always held ourselves out to be. I intend to continue to do my part to achieve these goals.

I am a patriot. I pay my taxes (all of them; not just the ones on income I haven't hidden from the government). I willingly serve on juries when called. I vote religiously. I am as kind to my fellow Americans as I know how to be. I obey the law. I support everyone's right to speak their mind, to worship as they see fit, and to generally live their life as best they can, however they choose. If that doesn't sound patriotic enough to you, then I don't know what else I can do or say to change your mind.
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Last edited by carlb; 08-21-2018 at 11:14 AM.
  #64  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:20 AM
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I think anyone born here should consider themselves lucky. The USA is the best country in the world and our bill of rights is still a gold standard.
I don't know about that. As I said in some other recent thread, it's an historic touchstone but it is not really the model. It's archaic and imprecise.

Cuomo obviously should have thought out his comments better before speaking. This didn't need hindsight to know that his backpedal should have been in his original statement. Pretty bad flub for such a pure politician.

"America's greatness had always hidden character flaws. Our most heroic achievement, the defeat of Nazi Germany, was done with segregated troops with African Americans being blocked fom participating in our democracy. We don't need to be great like that again. We can be better."
  #65  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:44 AM
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No, your posts are not invisible.


I would guess that one of his aides said something to him along the lines of "you just wrecked your shot at the 2020 presidential election" shortly after he left the stage, and at that point he probably realized just how bad what he'd done was and started worked on a plan to backtrack ASAP. I think saying "the phrasing was quite poor" (or that his comment was "inartful") doesn't really capture the extreme idiocy of what he did, but for purposes of our discussion I'll agree with this.



I agree that it was at least in part a rebuttal to President Trump's MAGA campaign slogan. I'll note that you appear to be soft-pedaling what the Governor actually said by leaving out the word "never", but I think you've more-or-less captured the point that he was stupidly / badly trying to make.
Thank you for responding. I didn't mean to soft-peddle what Cuomo said -- I dashed this off before going to catch a train so I didn't get the quote right. Thank you for the correction.

Since he has already back-peddled, I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Even Cuomo says he didn't really mean it that way -- why would you ask if other liberals think that? It just strikes me as a swipe at liberals based on something stupid that Cuomo said.
  #66  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:49 AM
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I'd be rather surprised if you could find a quote from some high-ranking elected Republican, like say a Governor or something, that expressed this sentiment.
Of course not, that's why they speak in dog whistles and speak of "us" and "them".
  #67  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:27 PM
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"Great" is a moving target that we'll never hit. But America has never been greater than it is today.
  #68  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:27 PM
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I think anyone born here should consider themselves lucky. The USA is the best country in the world and our bill of rights is still a gold standard.

Rather than focus on stuff that happened 50-300 years ago, I think the nation is better off looking at how we have changed for the better.

America is viewed as one of the greatest nations in the world today. I do understand that some who live here hate it. That is their right, and they are also free to leave. Yet we seldom see that. Gee, I wonder why.
If the US is so great, why doesn’t our President think so?
  #69  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:57 PM
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Look, I don't know if I can cope with all this. Andrew Cuomo? Paragon of lefty liberals everywhere, tireless champion of progressive progress, the Bed-hair Bernie of Brooklyn....crushed, bereft, despondent...me golden idol is tarnished.....

(Failure of sarcasm reserves, snark overload....I mean, c'mon! Andy C. is "the left" like Obama is Angela Davis, in that they are both somewhat brownish...)
  #70  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:04 PM
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... Since he has already back-peddled, I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Even Cuomo says he didn't really mean it that way -- why would you ask if other liberals think that? It just strikes me as a swipe at liberals based on something stupid that Cuomo said.
The purpose was mostly to see how widespread attitudes like Wesley Clark's and Moriarty's are among the Left. Here at the SDMB I've got access to an overwhelmingly-left-leaning audience that is more generally inclined to rational discussion than the average Leftist.

As perhaps a secondary purpose, I thought it was interesting that such an embarrassing faux pas didn't already have a thread of its own in our Elections Forum, so I decided to do the community a service and start one.
  #71  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:20 PM
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I think The Newsroom put it best.
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  #72  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:26 PM
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....so I decided to do the community a service and start one.
Damn white of you!
  #73  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:09 PM
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You think Cuomo is the Left. How cute.
  #74  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:23 PM
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You think Cuomo is the Left. How cute.
He's definitely not on the right.
  #75  
Old 08-21-2018, 04:24 PM
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In answer to HurricaneDitka's original question: no, I don't think that it's a common sentiment among liberals.

Upthread, I think that RitterSport, Exapno Mapcase, and Ann Hedonia all did a good job of laying out how most liberals feel about it: we love our country, we love the ideals that our country was founded on, our country has done many great (even amazing) things, but our country has also done (and too frequently continues to do) less-than-great things to people, particularly people who aren't wealthy white Christian males.

There's undoubtedly a subgroup within liberals who feel more strongly that the U.S.'s treatment of various groups (minorities, women, non-Christians, other countries, etc.) outweighs any good that the country has done, and, thus, could agree with Cuomo's statement at face value. And, yes, with a few minutes of digging on the internet, I have no doubt that you could find statements to that effect, and even to the effect that they hate America. But, IME, it's a fringe view.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 08-21-2018 at 04:25 PM.
  #76  
Old 08-21-2018, 04:45 PM
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@kenobi 65, thanks for your thoughtful response.
  #77  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:12 PM
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@kenobi 65, thanks for your thoughtful response.
You are most welcome.
  #78  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:25 PM
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Much of the progressive Left is based on grievance politics
Or in striving for an America where "equal protection of the law" has meaning.
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  #79  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:28 PM
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I am going to re-quote the context that running coach put in post #2:

Quote:
"We're not going to make America great again. It was never that great," Cuomo, a Democrat, remarked at a bill signing event in New York City. The comment was met by an audible reaction from the crowd.
His comments were a response to President Donald Trump's campaign catchphrase -- "Make America Great Again."

"We have not reached greatness. We will reach greatness when every American is fully engaged," Cuomo added. "We will reach greatness when discrimination and stereotyping of women, 51% of our population, is gone, and every woman's full potential is realized and unleashed and every woman is making her full contribution."
This was not a walk-back the next day. This was the rest of the fucking paragraph of which you only quote the first sentence. It was a rhetorical device to hook the audience with a shocking statement, then get the point across.

Taken as a whole, the entire quote (not just the sound bite) does sum up what many of us on the left think: there is no time in the past that was so great that it would be worth going back to. Keep moving forward.
  #80  
Old 08-21-2018, 05:55 PM
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... This was not a walk-back the next day. ....
This is an idiotic claim.

CBS News: New York Governor Andrew Cuomo walks back comments he made in attempt to mock President Trump's campaign slogan Make America Great Again

NBC News: Gov. Andrew Cuomo backtracks on controversial comment that ‘was never that great’

North County Public Radio: Cuomo walks back "America was never great" comment

The Hill: Cuomo's office walks back comment that America 'was never that great'
  #81  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:18 PM
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Does Cuomo himself use the term "walk back", or are these just people saying that what Cuomo did was a walk back?
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  #82  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:27 PM
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I do understand that some who live here hate it. That is their right, and they are also free to leave. Yet we seldom see that. Gee, I wonder why.
It's because the things that you imagine aren't real.
  #83  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:34 PM
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My understanding is that "the period of Jim Crow laws" encompasses our involvement in World War 2. While I certainly wouldn't point to Jim Crow laws as an example of something "great" America did, I would put our role in defeating the Nazis and Imperial Japan in that "great" category, and thus would have no qualms answering your question in the affirmative.
So you feel it's possible for America to have widespread segregation and still be a great country?
  #84  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:41 PM
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So you feel it's possible for America to have widespread segregation and still be a great country?
Yes, and I don't think it's an uncommon sentiment. Hell, even Governor Cuomo agrees with me ("Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that" - except perhaps you?).

To further expound my feelings on the matter: America of the 1940's could have been even better if it had not had Jim Crow laws, but stopping the Nazis and Imperial Japan was pretty fucking great. We don't call them the "Greatest Generation" for nothing.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-21-2018 at 06:42 PM.
  #85  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:44 PM
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Yes, and I don't think it's an uncommon sentiment. Hell, even Governor Cuomo agrees with me ("Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that" - except perhaps you?).

To further expound my feelings on the matter: America of the 1940's could have been even better if it had not had Jim Crow laws, but stopping the Nazis and Imperial Japan was pretty fucking great. We don't call them the "Greatest Generation" for nothing.
So you think that America was great for those living under the boot of the Jim Crow laws?

And you agree that no matter how great great is it can always be greater?
  #86  
Old 08-21-2018, 07:02 PM
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So you think that America was great for those living under the boot of the Jim Crow laws?
"Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that"

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And you agree that no matter how great great is it can always be greater?
Sure. "great" != perfect. There is (and will always be) room for improvement.
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:47 PM
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Some sentimental, opportunistic dickhead who wanted to sell books called them the "greatest generation." Truth is they weren't any different than those who came before or after them. The average folks were just people who had a world not of their creation thrust upon them. Dying overseas for the ambitions of others was an established tradition. People who romanticize this shit didn't watch their mothers get raped repeatedly, or rejoiced in greeting their legless, forever damaged daddy back home from the glorious war.

It's depressing that actual adults need to be pacified with fairy tales. World War II isn't an example of anything great. It's nothing but savagery, rape, starvation, privation, suffering, and killing on an unprecedented scale. The same America that liberated the camps turned away desperate Jews attempting to flee Hitler's Germany. The same country that championed human rights abroad had a dismal, hideous record at home. We aren't superheroes. We aren't a thousand points of fucking light.

America has done some great things. We have lofty ideals. We've never come close to realizing them, but striving for them is so much more important. And we've lost that. This disgusting pining for some mythical past is poisoning our country. The best we could do in the next few years is flush Trump and his ilk back down into the sewers they crawled out of to infect the body politic.
  #88  
Old 08-21-2018, 07:52 PM
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... The best we could do in the next few years is flush Trump and his ilk back down into the sewers they crawled out of to infect the body politic.
By electing someone like Cuomo?
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:53 PM
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"Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that"
I asked YOU for YOUR thoughts.

Quote:


Sure. "great" != perfect. There is (and will always be) room for improvement.
So your one of us lefties now! Great!
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:01 PM
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I asked YOU for YOUR thoughts.
I don't think that every American has always had a "great" life (certainly feeling that way about Mollie Tibbetts right now), but in general I don't have any qualms about describing America generally as a "great country", or even the "best" country.

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So your one of us lefties now! Great!
No, and I believe (in spite of a number of strawmen in this thread) that most right-wingers would have little difficulty acknowledging that America is not perfect.
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:19 PM
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Recently Gov. Cuomo (D-NY) said America "was never that great." Is this a common sentiment among those on the Left?
On the Left? I don't know.

For those with some knowledge of history beyond what was taught in fourth grade? It's not unusual.

Me, I do not like genocide, slavery, oligarchy, and despoilation. As I've become older and wiser, I've come to value fiscal responsibility. Does that make me 'on the Left'?
  #92  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:42 PM
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My understanding is that "the period of Jim Crow laws" encompasses our involvement in World War 2. While I certainly wouldn't point to Jim Crow laws as an example of something "great" America did, I would put our role in defeating the Nazis and Imperial Japan in that "great" category, and thus would have no qualms answering your question in the affirmative.
And is America less great today than at that time?
  #93  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:49 PM
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"Great" is a moving target that we'll never hit. But America has never been greater than it is today.
Well, maybe we were greater at some point in history, like say November 7th 2016.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 08-21-2018 at 08:52 PM.
  #94  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:54 PM
Exapno Mapcase is offline
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HurricaneDitka, do you or do you not acknowledge that "make America great again" is simply a dog whistle to appeal to whites who long for the days when white straight Christians were unquestionably dominant?
  #95  
Old 08-21-2018, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
.... (certainly feeling that way about Mollie Tibbetts right now.....
Why did you do that?
  #96  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:03 PM
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Why did you do that?
Do what? Mention the dead girl?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-21-2018 at 09:03 PM.
  #97  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:04 PM
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HurricaneDitka, do you or do you not acknowledge that "make America great again" is simply a dog whistle to appeal to whites who long for the days when white straight Christians were unquestionably dominant?
Do not.
  #98  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:05 PM
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And is America less great today than at that time?
I don't think so.
  #99  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:08 PM
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... Does that make me 'on the Left'?
I don't know where on the political spectrum you land.
  #100  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:12 PM
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Do what? Mention the dead girl?
Why that specific dead girl and not, you know, the thousands of other dead people that have occurred over the years?
Reply

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