View Poll Results: Your objection to the border wall
Financial - it costs too much 6 4.14%
Moral - it's wrong to have a barrier 10 6.90%
Practical - it's not the effective way to secure the border 119 82.07%
I don't object to the wall 10 6.90%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 01-27-2019, 03:34 PM
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Just out of curiosity, what is your definition of open borders?

I'm all for massively increasing immigration, and allowing pretty much anyone who wants to come here to come here, but I do still want them to come through a proper point of entry so that we know who (and what) is in our country.

I think that there is probably a limit to how many we can take per year, but it is far, far higher than we are taking now, and it is likely higher than the actual demand to come here.
More or less open for workers, but they dont get Green cards, they are not on any sort of Citizenship track. They can come, pay taxes , work, and go back. Fine with me.
  #102  
Old 01-27-2019, 04:38 PM
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As open as crossing from Nevada to California (I'm totally down with having to throw out an apple to help protect Cali agriculture). Or from Belgium to Luxembourg. Worldwide Schengen Agreement.
Those are two different situations, though.

Passing from Nevada to California does not require any sort of check of anything. You can wander across the border at any point you desire.

My understanding is that when you travel from Belgium to Luxembourg, you still have to pass through a port of entry, even though you don't need a visa.

While I prefer the latter, I don't think that the former would be the armageddon that the right tries to paint it as either.

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More or less open for workers, but they dont get Green cards, they are not on any sort of Citizenship track. They can come, pay taxes , work, and go back. Fine with me.
Why no citizen track? I wouldn't say that they have to be, nor that everyone would qualify, but, while it would be great to have people come here just to help us out in the labor force, I also like that at least some would come with the intention of staying and building a life for themselves and their family as well.

Would they just be working along the border, or could I get a few up here in Ohio to help me out in my business? Any limit to how long they can stay? I try to keep a low turnover, as I invest quite a bit into training my employees. I would really like to see most of my employees stay for life, as they only get better over time. I'd hate to spend 5 years getting someone to master their position, only to have them have to leave.
  #103  
Old 01-27-2019, 05:09 PM
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Passing from Nevada to California does not require any sort of check of anything. You can wander across the border at any point you desire.
In some places, you do have to stop at a checkpoint and declare things like apples or cherries, which might have undesirable insects or eggs on them. But, if you sneak in on one of the little used back roads like I-5 or I-80, you can slip past the checkpoints.
  #104  
Old 01-27-2019, 05:16 PM
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Why no citizen track? I wouldn't say that they have to be, nor that everyone would qualify, but, while it would be great to have people come here just to help us out in the labor force, I also like that at least some would come with the intention of staying and building a life for themselves and their family as well.

Would they just be working along the border, or could I get a few up here in Ohio to help me out in my business? Any limit to how long they can stay? I try to keep a low turnover, as I invest quite a bit into training my employees. I would really like to see most of my employees stay for life, as they only get better over time. I'd hate to spend 5 years getting someone to master their position, only to have them have to leave.
Oh sure, just like today some number can get green cards. That # is limited. A unlimited # can get temp work visas. That's my idea.

Last edited by DrDeth; 01-27-2019 at 05:16 PM.
  #105  
Old 01-27-2019, 08:24 PM
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. . . despite what some of our resident right-wing trolls might wish to claim.
While not an attack on a poster, (thereby attempting to get past rules regarding personal insults), this is clearly a violation of the spirit of the rules. This is a Note to avoid doing this in the future.

[ /Moderating ]
  #106  
Old 01-27-2019, 08:57 PM
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When I was a kid the USA was proud of its undefended borders.
  #107  
Old 01-27-2019, 08:57 PM
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Thanks, tom~. My apologies to all.
  #108  
Old 01-28-2019, 05:24 AM
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There is a precedent, Donald


Anyone know of a long wall that was supposed to keep undesirables out? Which was built at great expense and effort? And the undesirables still got through?

Hint:

Not a million miles from China.
  #109  
Old 01-28-2019, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Brayne Ded View Post
Anyone know of a long wall that was supposed to keep undesirables out? Which was built at great expense and effort? And the undesirables still got through?

Hint:

Not a million miles from China.
Yeah, but over a thousand years later, we still talk about it, and we still call it "Great." That's catnip for the Orange Moron.
  #110  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:58 AM
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Environmental objection


I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I've seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected.
  #111  
Old 01-28-2019, 10:23 AM
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I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I've seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected.
Excellent point — one I’m embarrassed that I hadn’t thought of.
  #112  
Old 01-28-2019, 11:24 AM
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I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I've seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected.
Trump wants to protect us from coyotes.

“Without borders, we have the reign of chaos, crime, cartels and believe it or not, coyotes.”

Not the least bit surprised. The man is a moron.
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  #113  
Old 01-28-2019, 11:25 AM
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You should have made "political" one of your poll choices. There are a number of Democrats that "actually did vote for [physical barriers on the southern border] before [they] voted against it", and ISTM that their opposition is primarily motivated by a desire to deny President Trump another victory.
Speaking of irony, there's a stronger argument that support for the Wall is political than there is that opposition to it is. In 2013 Republicans shot down a bill that would have allocated $46 billion to border security measures including additional fencing, extensive use of drones and a huge increase in personnel. And they shot it down because Obama. But now there's apparently an emergency, even though illegal immigration has continued to fall. Right.

Walls and fences are useful along some parts of the border. In other areas, other approaches (or combinations of approaches) are more effective. But the Wall as mooted has nothing to do with border security; there's no plan for it, from what little detail we know of it it wouldn't be effective, the money spent would be exorbitant and could be better used in other ways, and that's not even getting into the eminent domain and environmental damage issues. In short, it's a fucking stupid idea the Republicans want entirely for political reasons.

Walls and fences are also not intrinsically immoral. Cutting off all avenues by which to seek asylum, however, is. And it's also a fucking stupid idea being pursued by the current administration.
  #114  
Old 01-28-2019, 11:55 AM
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Trump wants to protect us from coyotes.

“Without borders, we have the reign of chaos, crime, cartels and believe it or not, coyotes.”

Not the least bit surprised. The man is a moron.
And you edited his quote to leave out the part about how he wants to raise tariffs on the Acme Corporation.

He is indeed a moron.
  #115  
Old 01-28-2019, 11:57 AM
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You should have made "political" one of your poll choices. There are a number of Democrats that "actually did vote for [physical barriers on the southern border] before [they] voted against it", and ISTM that their opposition is primarily motivated by a desire to deny President Trump another victory.
Good news: you're wrong.

Bad news: you're wrong because you're still being gaslit by the party you support into believing Trump's "wall" is the same thing as increased funding for border security, when it very clearly is not.

I really hope you stop letting them do this, because really, what they're doing to you is abusive and dangerous.
  #116  
Old 01-28-2019, 01:20 PM
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You should have made "political" one of your poll choices. There are a number of Democrats that "actually did vote for [physical barriers on the southern border] before [they] voted against it", and ISTM that their opposition is primarily motivated by a desire to deny President Trump another victory.
Yes, they voted for fencing, which has as it primary purpose drug interdiction, altho yes it does slow down illegals. They didnt vote for a wall.

Border patrol, fences in places, sophisticated electronic surveillance- all are good ideas. The Wall is not.

It's like the difference between some barbed wire and tank traps vs the maginot line. One is a good idea, and will help- the other is a useless waste of resources.
  #117  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:21 PM
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I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I've seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected.
There are also issues related to water. Even a steel bollard fence can have a serious impact on flooding patterns in areas where flooding is the primary way the desert landscape gets water

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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Trump wants to protect us from coyotes.

“Without borders, we have the reign of chaos, crime, cartels and believe it or not, coyotes.”

Not the least bit surprised. The man is a moron.
You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers.
  #118  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:25 PM
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You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers.
We are aware.
We are not convinced that he does.
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  #119  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:48 PM
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There are also issues related to water. Even a steel bollard fence can have a serious impact on flooding patterns in areas where flooding is the primary way the desert landscape gets water



You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers.
Trump:"And believe it or not 'coyotes'" That quote leads me to believe he means the 4-legged howling type of coyote. His intellect supports this.
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  #120  
Old 01-28-2019, 03:57 PM
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Well, if the wall is built by Wile E using the Acme Wall Kit, that should be enough to confound all the coyotes.
  #121  
Old 01-28-2019, 05:12 PM
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Trump:"And believe it or not 'coyotes'" That quote leads me to believe he means the 4-legged howling type of coyote. His intellect supports this.
He was likely told that human smuggling coyotes come up from Mexico, and just thought they were the animal.
  #122  
Old 01-28-2019, 05:13 PM
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Where's the "All of the Above" option in the poll?
  #123  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:12 PM
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I've brought this up in another thread and I can much more easily see the argument of it's just not needed the anything else.

I really don't have a strong opinion either way, as immigration is just not an issue I've had enough experience with to have it close at heart.

For those talking about fat lazy Americans, there is one nation on Earth with a much higher rate of obesity and guess what, it's Mexico lol.

Again though, for the 83 percent here that voted innefective. You are wrong. I can only say you must have zero tactical experience to see how walls work in the field and are only applying limited common sense.

If you think a wall or physical barrier can't help secure something I present to you forts, castles, prisons, military bases, your own home, Forward operating bases, and gated communities.

If you think a wall can't be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we're only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards.

The great Wall of China was also largely effective against all but large scale invasion.

Of course there are easy means of defeating a wall alone but the purpose is to slow someone down and crossing attempts also create a choke point which both allow a far lower amount of personnel to control a far higher amount of people.

Two to four people could easily detain 100 or 200 people if they are all trying to get over a ladder or out of a tunnel one at a time at a single point.
Yet a group of ten would probably have 6-8 people evade a group of two to four.

They are also extremely effective against vehicles, basically forcing anyone with a large or heavy load to cross at a controlled entry point, by sea, or by air... Sea and air are fairly effective natural barriers, even now.

Does a wall address an actual existing issue.... Probably not....maybe in small parts, probably disproportionately low compared to the measure. Is a wall an effective tool.... absolutely.

If you had such a tool, combined with easy access to immigrate properly you could be reasonably assured that anyone trying to cross it should not be crossing it and reasonably assured that most would be caught.

I honestly couldn't care less about people who overstayed a visa and probably anyone eligible for one ought to just be given the option of becoming a citizen by getting a free medical exam (helping prevent a spread of any epidemic as well as doing them a service), taking a few classes to teach them where to get tax forms, what their rights are, and some of the basics and then just become citizens just that easy.
  #124  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:25 PM
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Those are two different situations, though.

Passing from Nevada to California does not require any sort of check of anything. You can wander across the border at any point you desire.

My understanding is that when you travel from Belgium to Luxembourg, you still have to pass through a port of entry, even though you don't need a visa.

While I prefer the latter, I don't think that the former would be the armageddon that the right tries to paint it as either.



Why no citizen track? I wouldn't say that they have to be, nor that everyone would qualify, but, while it would be great to have people come here just to help us out in the labor force, I also like that at least some would come with the intention of staying and building a life for themselves and their family as well.

Would they just be working along the border, or could I get a few up here in Ohio to help me out in my business? Any limit to how long they can stay? I try to keep a low turnover, as I invest quite a bit into training my employees. I would really like to see most of my employees stay for life, as they only get better over time. I'd hate to spend 5 years getting someone to master their position, only to have them have to leave.
You've obviously never seen the construction or housecleaning businesses In Columbus , look around a little, you could get all the legal or illegal immigrants your heart desires.

If you prefer you can look around the west side, near Phillipi road and get them from Somalia or Ghana instead , both legal and illegal again, both tend to stick around at minimum 7 years, illegals usually longer since it's actually more difficult for them to go back whenever they'd like.
  #125  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:31 PM
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Anyone know of a long wall that was supposed to keep undesirables out? Which was built at great expense and effort? And the undesirables still got through?

Hint:

Not a million miles from China.
By and large considered highly effective at keeping out nomads. Which is why it continued to be used and built upon for hundreds of years. If it never worked I think they would have gotten the point in first few hundred years. Just innefective at periods it was vastly undermanned or against full scale invasions.

Entire armies vs a few guards of course overcome a wall.

The proposition of course is not trying to defend against the Mexican army.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-28-2019 at 08:35 PM.
  #126  
Old 01-28-2019, 08:50 PM
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I should have brought this argument here, instead of the "air traffic controller" thread by AE, but the biggest flaw in the wall strategy is political: Attempting to build this thing could cost the GOP Texas, at least for an election cycle or two.

In another post, same thread, I ask the following:

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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Architects! Tell me your wall design plans for this section of the Rio Grande!

1. Do you build an impenetrable barrier across the lake between Falcon Mesa and Siesta Shores, thereby blocking access to the RG from the cove?
2. Do you build an impenetrable barrier along the shoreline, allowing access to the cove from the Rio Grande, but blocking land access to the cove?
3. This section, north of Falcon State Park. Do you build your wall on the Rio Grande, or wind it around the various coves and such?
4. Do we lose our State Park?
5. What are your design plans to keep FM 2098 Spur access road open, and on American territory, if you decide to build along the shoreline?
6. Explain where the wall is going to be placed as to not affect operations of the Falcon State Dam. If placed on the shoreline, does the wall go on top of the dam?
7. How does the wall impact the 1944 Treaty for the Utilization of Waters of the Colorado and Tijuana Rivers and of the Rio Grande, which governs the use of the Falcon Lake facilities for both countries?


(I mean, I can go on and on about how this idiotic idea is a fucking nightmare for the GOP, based upon the delusions of people who can't even be bothered to look at the border via Google Maps, but I think these 7 questions are interesting enough design challenges.)

Oh! And you have to block all this water access in a way which is politically acceptable to the largest state the GOP carries.

(And we haven't even begun to explore what the fuck happens in El Paso, Laredo, the farms of McAllen and Pharr, Brownsville, and more. How is it even possible to build an impenetrable physical barrier which allows water flow throughs of the 10s of thousands of gallons an hour needed for irrigation purposes?)
  #127  
Old 01-28-2019, 10:13 PM
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If you think a wall can't be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we're only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards.
Bearing in mind that the Berlin Wall (and the "Inner German Border" which extended along the rest of the border beyond Berlin) wasn't just a single wall: there was the main wall, a fence about 100 yards further into East German territory (at least in the Berlin section), and a "death strip" of clear land between the two.

Plus, the manned guard towers, with soldiers who had standing orders to shoot anyone trying to cross, not to mention minefields, ditches, barbed wire, tripwires, etc.

In short: calling it "a wall" doesn't come close to telling the whole story -- it was effectively a fully militarized zone. I strongly suspect that it wasn't the wall itself which prevented mass crossings of the border, but all of the additional deadly force which East Germany was willing to place there.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin...adjacent_areas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border

Last edited by kenobi 65; 01-28-2019 at 10:15 PM.
  #128  
Old 01-28-2019, 11:11 PM
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For those talking about fat lazy Americans, there is one nation on Earth with a much higher rate of obesity and guess what, it's Mexico lol.
Cite?

Everything I've read says that they have a higher percentage of people considered overweight, but are significantly behind the US in regards to the obesity rate.

Quote:
Again though, for the 83 percent here that voted innefective. You are wrong. I can only say you must have zero tactical experience to see how walls work in the field and are only applying limited common sense.

If you think a wall or physical barrier can't help secure something I present to you forts, castles, prisons, military bases, your own home, Forward operating bases, and gated communities.
Wow, that's such a stupid statement that I'm hard pressed to assign any level of experience to it, tactical or otherwise. I can easily get into any fort, castle, prison military base or even my house, if there is no other technology involved aside from the barriers. I can scale the fort walls and prison fences (the barbed/razor wire would add a minute or two to the process, as I would either cut through it or drape a carpet over it), simply walk through the entry point of just about any military base, or break a window and crawl through into my house.

Quote:
If you think a wall can't be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we're only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards.
The wall itself (which was under 100 miles in length) was a piece of cake to get over. It was all of the other aspects, such as two guard towers per mile, land mines, dogs, manned bunkers, walking guards, etc.

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The great Wall of China was also largely effective against all but large scale invasion.
Without armed manpower, I can scale an average section of the great wall in a couple of minutes with a grappling hook and knotted rope, and I'm old and not in the best shape of my life.

Quote:
Of course there are easy means of defeating a wall alone but the purpose is to slow someone down and crossing attempts also create a choke point which both allow a far lower amount of personnel to control a far higher amount of people.
If it only slows you down for a matter of minutes, there is no reason to avoid it and head to one of your choke points.

The wall is stupid and won't work. A 1500 mile long double wall, with extremely deep foundations (to stop tunneling), sniper equipped guard towers every half mile or so, land mines, and dog runs between the walls would probably work. It would cost a hell of a lot more than 5 (or 50 billion dollars) to do it and would just cause people to come via the water instead. Hell, it would probably work if the walls were only 3 foot high in that scenario.
  #129  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:05 AM
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If you think a wall or physical barrier can't help secure something I present to you forts, castles, prisons, military bases, your own home, Forward operating bases, and gated communities.
So, first of all, note that for castles, homes, prisons, and military bases, you can't just bring a ladder with a saddle attachment, because they also have a roof. Note that prison and forward operating base walls aren't just walls, but are tightly guarded by people who will shoot you if you try to get over those walls. (This is not a viable option for a 2000-mile wall.) As for the last one, gated communities, if getting over the wall to a gated community was something anyone actually cared about, it would probably happen all the time. As is, it's just "access to where the snooty rich people live", and serves as a deterrent to casual theft more than anything else.

Quote:
If you think a wall can't be effective on a border well the Berlin Wall stopped 99 percent of immigration to West Germany. Granted being caught was a death sentence so fewer attempts as well. Still the successful crossers we're only about 5000 over thirty years and 20 percent of those were guards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

Note the photo on the right. That whole stretch of a few hundred yards? There are guards watching it, and they will shoot you on sight. That's why it worked - crossing the Berlin wall wasn't just a matter of "get over the wall". You had to get over the wall, then sneak through about a hundred yards of tightly-watched flatlands, knowing that guards will shoot you on sight if they see you there. None of this is an option for the US-Mexico border.

Quote:
The great Wall of China was also largely effective against all but large scale invasion.
The great wall was designed against large-scale invasion. It was never built to stop individual people entering, and as far as I know, wouldn't.

Quote:
Two to four people could easily detain 100 or 200 people if they are all trying to get over a ladder or out of a tunnel one at a time at a single point.
Right, but given how huge the border is, we don't have 2-4 people watching every stretch of wall at any given time. If we did, the cost would be absolutely enormous - posting people 24/7 every few hundred yards for 2000 miles is an obscene cost.
  #130  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:47 AM
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Cite?

Everything I've read says that they have a higher percentage of people considered overweight, but are significantly behind the US in regards to the obesity rate.


Wow, that's such a stupid statement that I'm hard pressed to assign any level of experience to it, tactical or otherwise. I can easily get into any fort, castle, prison military base or even my house, if there is no other technology involved aside from the barriers. I can scale the fort walls and prison fences (the barbed/razor wire would add a minute or two to the process, as I would either cut through it or drape a carpet over it), simply walk through the entry point of just about any military base, or break a window and crawl through into my house.


The wall itself (which was under 100 miles in length) was a piece of cake to get over. It was all of the other aspects, such as two guard towers per mile, land mines, dogs, manned bunkers, walking guards, etc.

Without armed manpower, I can scale an average section of the great wall in a couple of minutes with a grappling hook and knotted rope, and I'm old and not in the best shape of my life.


If it only slows you down for a matter of minutes, there is no reason to avoid it and head to one of your choke points.

The wall is stupid and won't work. A 1500 mile long double wall, with extremely deep foundations (to stop tunneling), sniper equipped guard towers every half mile or so, land mines, and dog runs between the walls would probably work. It would cost a hell of a lot more than 5 (or 50 billion dollars) to do it and would just cause people to come via the water instead. Hell, it would probably work if the walls were only 3 foot high in that scenario.
A ladder is a choke point.

Current border "wall" sections are very similar to the first three generations of the Berlin Wall.

High fence, constantina wire , no man's land , another fence.

And big no kidding.
Let me say it one more time.
Any physical barrier can be easily surmounted if there is nothing to back it up....duh. I said that


Cite for fattest nation. Too easy to search that. Whether you're considering obesity or just over weight it's gone back and forth between the US and Mexico since 2010.

But here's a few hundred cites

Though I guess it has gone back and forth between

https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...obile&ie=UTF-8

Last edited by Littleman; 01-29-2019 at 06:52 AM.
  #131  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:59 AM
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So, first of all, note that for castles, homes, prisons, and military bases, you can't just bring a ladder with a saddle attachment, because they also have a roof. Note that prison and forward operating base walls aren't just walls, but are tightly guarded by people who will shoot you if you try to get over those walls. (This is not a viable option for a 2000-mile wall.) As for the last one, gated communities, if getting over the wall to a gated community was something anyone actually cared about, it would probably happen all the time. As is, it's just "access to where the snooty rich people live", and serves as a deterrent to casual theft more than anything else.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

Note the photo on the right. That whole stretch of a few hundred yards? There are guards watching it, and they will shoot you on sight. That's why it worked - crossing the Berlin wall wasn't just a matter of "get over the wall". You had to get over the wall, then sneak through about a hundred yards of tightly-watched flatlands, knowing that guards will shoot you on sight if they see you there. None of this is an option for the US-Mexico border.



The great wall was designed against large-scale invasion. It was never built to stop individual people entering, and as far as I know, wouldn't.



Right, but given how huge the border is, we don't have 2-4 people watching every stretch of wall at any given time. If we did, the cost would be absolutely enormous - posting people 24/7 every few hundred yards for 2000 miles is an obscene cost.
I don't think you can break down the actual intent of the great Wall since it was built by several dynasties but it was effective against small groups.


Regardless of scale, a wall simply reduces the amount of personnel required to secure an area by an order of magnitude.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-29-2019 at 06:59 AM.
  #132  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:00 AM
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A ladder is a choke point.

Current border "wall" sections are very similar to the first three generations of the Berlin Wall.
I love that the modern Republican party is looking to Soviet Bloc states for guidance on how to treat borders. And by "love," I mean "loathe."
  #133  
Old 01-29-2019, 08:03 AM
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"A ladder is a choke point", lol. A portable one which can appear anywhere, at any time, but yeah, technically it's a choke point.

I mean... did you write this thinking that Mexicans are going to put ladders against the wall and just leave them there for future migrants? So that then, all we have to do is find the ladders, and then wait for the Mexicans?

This is part of the fantasy world conservatives live in today.

Of the state's $1.65 trillion in GDP, fully 1/10th is trade with Mexico.

You can talk design all you want, but it's fantasy. Texas doesn't want your wall, we have better things to do than let a bunch of ignorant border-less racists in small-assed States tell us what to do with our $170 billion relationship with Mexico, and we sure as hell aren't going to let South Carolina, for example, wall us off from our biggest neighbor.

But go ahead! Go ahead and demand that the GOP puts Texas's 38+ electoral votes up for grabs so they can be assured of 2 EV's from WY, SD, ND, etc. Go ahead and force the GOP be the driving force behind the single most unpopular eminent domain case in the States history. We Texas Dems are just begging for such a gift.

Last edited by JohnT; 01-29-2019 at 08:05 AM.
  #134  
Old 01-29-2019, 10:17 AM
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"Constantina wire?"
  #135  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:00 AM
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"Constantina wire?"
Most coiled wire you'll see is not actually razor wire. It's constantina. Basically really effective Barb's that snag everything rather than just cut people up.
  #136  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:03 AM
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"A ladder is a choke point", lol. A portable one which can appear anywhere, at any time, but yeah, technically it's a choke point.

I mean... did you write this thinking that Mexicans are going to put ladders against the wall and just leave them there for future migrants? So that then, all we have to do is find the ladders, and then wait for the Mexicans?

This is part of the fantasy world conservatives live in today.

Of the state's $1.65 trillion in GDP, fully 1/10th is trade with Mexico.

You can talk design all you want, but it's fantasy. Texas doesn't want your wall, we have better things to do than let a bunch of ignorant border-less racists in small-assed States tell us what to do with our $170 billion relationship with Mexico, and we sure as hell aren't going to let South Carolina, for example, wall us off from our biggest neighbor.

But go ahead! Go ahead and demand that the GOP puts Texas's 38+ electoral votes up for grabs so they can be assured of 2 EV's from WY, SD, ND, etc. Go ahead and force the GOP be the driving force behind the single most unpopular eminent domain case in the States history. We Texas Dems are just begging for such a gift.
I never said I wanted it. Just that effectiveness is not a good argument.

I'll be sure and let every military leader i know though in on the knowledge that apparently walls don't work, besides we have thousands of soldiers with rifles and machine guns so we don't need that T barrier on FOBs because anyone can climb over with a ladder.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-29-2019 at 11:07 AM.
  #137  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:19 AM
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Most coiled wire you'll see is not actually razor wire. It's constantina. Basically really effective Barb's that snag everything rather than just cut people up.
The term is concertina wire, not constantina. I imagine that andros knows what concertina wire is, and was pointing out the wrong word usage.
  #138  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:22 AM
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Ladder is a choke point because you can't have 100 people cross it at once simultaneously scattering.

Whether the "personnel " are people , dogs, drones. Doesn't matter, they can detect and alert about a single choke point and effectively control or eliminate that breech with far more ease and faaaar less personnel much more easily than an open field.

Doesn't matter if the barrier is a fence , a wall, a double stack of constantina or what.
They are used ubiquitously because they are an effective tool.

Even industrial buildings use them for security, it makes it a lot easier for people to be spotted, and caught. Even though anyone can get through with some wire snips, a ladder, a whatever...you name it.
  #139  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:23 AM
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The term is concertina wire, not constantina. I imagine that andros knows what concertina wire is, and was pointing out the wrong word usage.
Ah ok
  #140  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:36 AM
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I never said I wanted it. Just that effectiveness is not a good argument.

I'll be sure and let every military leader i know though in on the knowledge that apparently walls don't work, besides we have thousands of soldiers with rifles and machine guns so we don't need that T barrier on FOBs because anyone can climb over with a ladder.
Go ahead and do that, see if I care. That's not my main point, anyway, which is, restated:

This wall will not work in Texas.
  #141  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:40 AM
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Yeah, but over a thousand years later, we still talk about it, and we still call it "Great." That's catnip for the Orange Moron.
Yup, "great," as in "great boondoggle." But the Orange Cockatoo can't see the difference.
  #142  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:41 AM
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Again, the reason that East Germany's wall was effective was *not* the wall itself -- it was the fact that East German created a militarized zone, a hundred yards wide or wider, along the entire border with West Germany. They tore out whatever was sitting in that zone originally (including homes and farms). Which, of course, as a totalitarian regime, they could do.

Littleman, you may argue that that's just a semantic difference -- that the East German border system still is, fundamentally, a wall. Fair enough. But...that sort of border security has, as far as I can tell, *never* been what Trump has described when he talks about "his wall." He (and, I would wager, most of his supporters) envision it as a single, impenetrable, unscaleable wall (steel slat fence, whatever).

So, if you want this "wall system" to be as effective as East Germany's was, you'd have to go full-in. The U.S. would have to take possession of land along the border, hundreds of yards into U.S. territory, for hundreds of miles. Much of that land is owned by private individuals right now, or public parkland -- and, as JohnT keeps pointing out, the entire border in Texas is a river.

And, then, once you take control of that land, and build this extensive militarized zone, you'd have to staff it and maintain it, constantly.

If you were willing to do all of this, sure, it'd be an effective wall. It'd also be *massively* expensive and disruptive.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 01-29-2019 at 11:45 AM.
  #143  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:42 AM
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I picked Moral but not for the reasons others probably did. My main objection is the ecological damage an extended barrier would do, cutting off migration routes, destroying habitat etc. I've seen one estimate that at least 1,500 species would be affected.
Well, the vote only allows one choice. IMHO, three choices apply.
  #144  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:47 AM
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A ladder is a choke point.
Not a ladder that I carry with me.
Quote:
Current border "wall" sections are very similar to the first three generations of the Berlin Wall.

High fence, constantina wire , no man's land , another fence.
So part of the plan is to have guard towers every half mile, land mines between the fences, etc.?

Quote:
And big no kidding.
Let me say it one more time.
Any physical barrier can be easily surmounted if there is nothing to back it up....duh. I said that
Excellent, now how many guard towers should we have along the entire length, how many personnel in each tower? Throw in a few more numbers for the count of dogs and land mines that we might want, to secure these ladder "choke points" that you find so limiting.

Quote:
Cite for fattest nation. Too easy to search that. Whether you're considering obesity or just over weight it's gone back and forth between the US and Mexico since 2010.

But here's a few hundred cites

Though I guess it has gone back and forth between

https://www.google.com/search?q=mexi...obile&ie=UTF-8
You're new here, but a google landing page doesn't qualify as a cite on this board, but many of the links there state the we are in fact more obese. To be fair, this has shit to do with the wall, and was tossed out as an aside to point out that most of those who would climb such walls end up doing jobs Americans don't want to do, whether fat and lazy and slim and active.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Washington Post
That year, 489,000 people were unemployed statewide. The North Carolina Growers Association listed 6,500 available jobs. Just 268 of those 489,000 North Carolinians applied, and 245 were hired. On the first day of work, 163 showed up, and a grand total of seven finished the season. Of the mostly Mexican workers who took the rest of the jobs, 90 percent made it through to the end.
No mention of fat or lazy, but it certainly appears we're not willing.
  #145  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:48 AM
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Littleman, the Berlin wall "worked" because there was a shoot to kill order. Does Trump think he can do that on the Rio Grande?
  #146  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:53 AM
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Littleman, the Berlin wall "worked" because there was a shoot to kill order. Does Trump think he can do that on the Rio Grande?
Not to mention the land mines. Will we be doing those, too?
  #147  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:30 PM
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Wallyball
  #148  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:37 PM
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Littleman, the Berlin wall "worked" because there was a shoot to kill order. Does Trump think he can do that on the Rio Grande?
The why did they bother with a wall at all?

Why not just guards. Oh because it would have taken 100 times more guards to still make it 99 percent effective.
  #149  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:41 PM
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Not a ladder that I carry with me.So part of the plan is to have guard towers every half mile, land mines between the fences, etc.?

Excellent, now how many guard towers should we have along the entire length, how many personnel in each tower? Throw in a few more numbers for the count of dogs and land mines that we might want, to secure these ladder "choke points" that you find so limiting.


You're new here, but a google landing page doesn't qualify as a cite on this board, but many of the links there state the we are in fact more obese. To be fair, this has shit to do with the wall, and was tossed out as an aside to point out that most of those who would climb such walls end up doing jobs Americans don't want to do, whether fat and lazy and slim and active.

No mention of fat or lazy, but it certainly appears we're not willing.
Carry a ladder all you want, it's still a choke point. Carrying it somewhere doesn't make able to have people climb it 20 or 30 or more across.
You still gotta go over it one at a time.

Ok cites on Mexico's fatness.
https://www.actigraphcorp.com/news-a...attest-nation/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...world-43668927

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...ttest-10012960

Better?
  #150  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:46 PM
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Want to secure well, essentially anything long term?

A wall is basically requisite. Why because it's an effective tool.

Doesn't need to be 99 percent effective to be effective.

Whatever you back it up with now determines how effective it is.

Without one, you want to secure a line, you basically need a 24 hour formation of people who can hold hands stacked several deep.
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