View Poll Results: Your objection to the border wall
Financial - it costs too much 6 4.14%
Moral - it's wrong to have a barrier 10 6.90%
Practical - it's not the effective way to secure the border 119 82.07%
I don't object to the wall 10 6.90%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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  #151  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:48 PM
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Drop the hijack regarding relative weight/obesity of differing nations.

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  #152  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:50 PM
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Want to secure well, essentially anything long term?

A wall is basically requisite. Why because it's an effective tool.

Doesn't need to be 99 percent effective to be effective.

Whatever you back it up with now determines how effective it is.

Without one, you want to secure a line, you basically need a 24 hour formation of people who can hold hands stacked several deep.
Is it 1415?
  #153  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:04 PM
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Are we expecting just a lone wall with zero monitoring, zero enforcement, zero patrols.

Because we all know that would be probably less than 1 percent effective.
  #154  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:08 PM
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Are we expecting just a lone wall with zero monitoring, zero enforcement, zero patrols.

Because we all know that would be probably less than 1 percent effective.
So how many guard towers per mile are you envisioning?
  #155  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:12 PM
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Are we expecting just a lone wall with zero monitoring, zero enforcement, zero patrols.

Because we all know that would be probably less than 1 percent effective.
I don't know any such thing. Got math which leads to that 1% effectiveness conclusion, or is it pulled out of the ether?

A wall which is 1% effective should never be built. Let's shelve this stupid idea. Thanks!

Last edited by JohnT; 01-29-2019 at 03:13 PM.
  #156  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:40 PM
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So how many guard towers per mile are you envisioning?
Idk.

If I wanted to secure the border which is an awfully big if ,Hypothetically;
Really depends on surrounding terrain but assuming good usual visibility and wanting a reasonable success rate and deterrent factor, using apprehension and at most less than lethal force as a goal. I'd say posting up every 3-5 miles would be highly effective with a wall and cameras.

You could probably spread that to at least 10-12 maybe more with random patrols.

Assuming you also used drone monitoring with IR equipment to track approaches you might stretch that to 20 miles and still be highly effective.

Beyond that I'd say your rates of effectiveness would start dropping off pretty quick at 30-40 miles I would guess you're down in the maybe 50 percent range.
  #157  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:43 PM
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You are aware, of course, that when he says “coyotes” he is speaking of human-traffickers.
Oh, I think I'd take that bet.
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  #158  
Old 01-29-2019, 03:43 PM
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I don't know any such thing. Got math which leads to that 1% effectiveness conclusion, or is it pulled out of the ether?

A wall which is 1% effective should never be built. Let's shelve this stupid idea. Thanks!
Just can't imagine many people able to get to it with a ladder or snips or sledgehammer or whatever would suddenly be stymied by an unmonitored wall or fence.
  #159  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:21 PM
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Just can't imagine many people able to get to it with a ladder or snips or sledgehammer or whatever would suddenly be stymied by an unmonitored wall or fence.
If you're doing the monitoring anyway, the wall seems like a waste of money
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  #160  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:22 PM
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Idk.

If I wanted to secure the border which is an awfully big if ,Hypothetically;
Really depends on surrounding terrain but assuming good usual visibility and wanting a reasonable success rate and deterrent factor, using apprehension and at most less than lethal force as a goal. I'd say posting up every 3-5 miles would be highly effective with a wall and cameras.
Okay, so taht is 400 to 700 guard towers along the length of the wall. I assume manned 24/7, with a minimum of 2 guards each. given 8 hours, that is 42 shifts per week, so at least 10 assigned to each post, to give coverage for PTO or illness.

So, an additional 4000 to 7000 guards need to be employed.
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You could probably spread that to at least 10-12 maybe more with random patrols.
Okay, down to about 200 to 240 guard towers, with only 2000 to 2400 positions open, plus enough for random patrols to cover those 2000 miles.
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Assuming you also used drone monitoring with IR equipment to track approaches you might stretch that to 20 miles and still be highly effective.
10 miles (half of 20) means that you are at least 10 minutes away (at 60MPH, a doubtful proposition along the border). How many people do you think can climb a ladder in 10 minutes?
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Beyond that I'd say your rates of effectiveness would start dropping off pretty quick at 30-40 miles I would guess you're down in the maybe 50 percent range.
Well, yeah, at 30-40 minutes till interception, I'd say 50% would be a pretty generous rate.

While we are at it, what are ROE? Are they shooting on sight? Are they warning first? Can they shoot runners? If they are running away into Mexico? if they are running away into the US? How close to the wall can people get before they are in the "kill zone"?

Will we end up with a double wall, so that there is a kill zone in between the walls? Maybe put in some mines?



You can accomplish comprehensive border security of this without having to build a wall that will cuase massive ecological damage, will ruin commerce for Texas and most of the southern US, and require the largest government confiscation of property in the history of the US.

If there are places where a physical barrier does not exist that could use one, or a physical barrier that could use an upgrade, then this is a reasonable discussion to have.

The idea of just building a wall along the border is a non-starter.
  #161  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:24 PM
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If I wanted to secure the border which is an awfully big if ,Hypothetically;
Really depends on surrounding terrain but assuming good usual visibility and wanting a reasonable success rate and deterrent factor, using apprehension and at most less than lethal force as a goal. I'd say posting up every 3-5 miles would be highly effective with a wall and cameras.

You could probably spread that to at least 10-12 maybe more with random patrols.

Assuming you also used drone monitoring with IR equipment to track approaches you might stretch that to 20 miles and still be highly effective.

Beyond that I'd say your rates of effectiveness would start dropping off pretty quick at 30-40 miles I would guess you're down in the maybe 50 percent range.
I suspect that your "effectiveness rate" would be far, far lower with towers / personnel located several miles or more apart. Even with cameras, if your towers were 10 miles apart, that means that, probably at best, your guards would need at least five minutes to respond to a group attempting to cross the wall. I suspect that, by the time the guards arrived, many groups would be able to be long gone.

Looking at the details of the "Inner German border" on Wikipedia, it mentions that there were 700 watchtowers along the length of that fortified border (which was 866 miles long), as well as roughly 1000 fortified bunkers, which also contained guards. My understanding is that there were few, if any, locations along that border that were *not* in line of sight to at least one watchtower.

So, again, yes, a fortified, heavily manned border wall would be effective. East Germany proved that. I don't think, however, that even Trump's vague descriptions of what he wants as his wall really include that, and building a wall like that would be exorbitantly expensive.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 01-29-2019 at 04:27 PM.
  #162  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:25 PM
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Just can't imagine many people able to get to it with a ladder or snips or sledgehammer or whatever would suddenly be stymied by an unmonitored wall or fence.
So now we're not just talking a hundred billion dollar wall, we're talking regular guard towers and guards and patrols and patrol vehicles and billions more annually to watch empty desert to protect us against a population that commits fewer crimes and works harder than citizens?

Do you actually wonder why everyone keeps pointing out how ridiculous this entire concept appears?
  #163  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:41 PM
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So now we're not just talking a hundred billion dollar wall, we're talking regular guard towers and guards and patrols and patrol vehicles and billions more annually to watch empty desert to protect us against a population that commits fewer crimes and works harder than citizens?

Do you actually wonder why everyone keeps pointing out how ridiculous this entire concept appears?
I wonder why everyone wants to tell me it's wrong because of the issues when I'm talking about pure mechanics.
  #164  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:45 PM
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I wonder why everyone wants to tell me it's wrong because of the issues when I'm talking about pure mechanics.
You do realize that sentence makes little sense, don't you?
Define your terms.
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  #165  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:51 PM
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I suspect that your "effectiveness rate" would be far, far lower with towers / personnel located several miles or more apart. Even with cameras, if your towers were 10 miles apart, that means that, probably at best, your guards would need at least five minutes to respond to a group attempting to cross the wall. I suspect that, by the time the guards arrived, many groups would be able to be long gone.

Looking at the details of the "Inner German border" on Wikipedia, it mentions that there were 700 watchtowers along the length of that fortified border (which was 866 miles long), as well as roughly 1000 fortified bunkers, which also contained guards. My understanding is that there were few, if any, locations along that border that were *not* in line of sight to at least one watchtower.

So, again, yes, a fortified, heavily manned border wall would be effective. East Germany proved that. I don't think, however, that even Trump's vague descriptions of what he wants as his wall really include that, and building a wall like that would be exorbitantly expensive.
Random patrols in vehicles plus monitoring approaches means they'd more likely than not already be closer than that.
But let's say from detection to the time they crossed is 3 minutes because the group is all Olympian special forces and worst case scenario all personnel are at least 5 miles away. They are halfway there before a crossing is made and maybe the first two have made it half a mile past there at a dead sprint before they arrive with quads already having made a decision to detain the closest few.
Maybe 4 of these people are able to evade them. The rest are caught crossing or very close by.

This is just a scenario of being reasonably sure you could catch or deter most people.
  #166  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:55 PM
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You do realize that sentence makes little sense, don't you?
Define your terms.
Issues: anything having to do with a reason for building or not building a wall. Which I have little opinion of and favor the not building side.

Pure mechanics: walls work, been proven through thousands of years , across cultures , in thousands of scenarios and continues to be proven every single day.
  #167  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:02 PM
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Issues: anything having to do with a reason for building or not building a wall. Which I have little opinion of and favor the not building side.

Pure mechanics: walls work, been proven through thousands of years , across cultures , in thousands of scenarios and continues to be proven every single day.
It seems like you're saying the wall will slow down crossers by 3 minutes. I'm not sure I'm willing to pay 150 billion of my taxes (plus probably 20-30 billion a year in maintenance) to slow down a handful of people from crossing a border by 3 minutes.
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  #168  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:03 PM
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It seems like you're saying the wall will slow down crossers by 3 minutes. I'm not sure I'm willing to pay 150 billion of my taxes (plus probably 20-30 billion a year in maintenance) to slow down a handful of people from crossing a border by 3 minutes.
Plus, 3 minutes seems like a really really really long time to climb a ladder. I usually don't expect to take more than a couple of seconds to climb my ladder. How high do you think they're climbing?
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  #169  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:04 PM
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Issues: anything having to do with a reason for building or not building a wall. Which I have little opinion of and favor the not building side.

Pure mechanics: walls work, been proven through thousands of years , across cultures , in thousands of scenarios and continues to be proven every single day.
The point that I think we (or, at least me) have been trying to make is not that "walls don't work," it's that "walls *can* work, but in this case, in this situation, the vague proposal that Trump has made almost undoubtedly would *not* work as he and his supporters believe it would."

A fortified, militarized border, with heavy patrols and numerous features beyond "a wall" probably would work. First, that's not what Trump has seemed to propose. Second, the issues of exerting eminent domain over many thousands of acres of privately owned land, as well as the fact that the entire Texas / Mexico border is a river, are huge issues. And, third, building something that would actually work (i.e., a militarized border zone) would be ridiculously expensive, orders of magnitude beyond the $5.7 billion, or whatever number Trump has pulled out of thin air.
  #170  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:05 PM
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It seems like you're saying the wall will slow down crossers by 3 minutes. I'm not sure I'm willing to pay 150 billion of my taxes (plus probably 20-30 billion a year in maintenance) to slow down a handful of people from crossing a border by 3 minutes.
CBP spends tons on personnel already. Any physical barrier just makes them more effective.
Again, a wall simply lowers the required personnel to secure an area by an order of magnitude.

Do we need it.....doubtful

If I had to decide where to put several billion dollars this would be like number 9,999 on my maybe.list.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-29-2019 at 05:08 PM.
  #171  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:11 PM
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Again, a wall simply lowers the required personnel to secure an area by an order of magnitude.
Why?

You're suggesting random patrols, plus guard towers, plus electronic monitoring. What does the wall add to that? How does it reduce the need for personnel? Seems like with the random patrols and guard towers you'll need more personnel?

I can see how walls would help in heavily-trafficked areas (where we already have fencing). But in the middle of nowhere? I don't see how it would help at all.
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  #172  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:13 PM
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Random patrols in vehicles plus monitoring approaches means they'd more likely than not already be closer than that.
But let's say from detection to the time they crossed is 3 minutes because the group is all Olympian special forces and worst case scenario all personnel are at least 5 miles away. They are halfway there before a crossing is made and maybe the first two have made it half a mile past there at a dead sprint before they arrive with quads already having made a decision to detain the closest few.
How fast are these ATVs that they are covering 5 miles in 3 minutes?

Also, how long do you think it takes for a motivated person to climb a wall?

When they show up on their quads, and a dozen people run in a dozen different directions, how do they catch them all? Do they just start shooting?
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Maybe 4 of these people are able to evade them. The rest are caught crossing or very close by.

This is just a scenario of being reasonably sure you could catch or deter most people.
With this scenario, you've caught one or two of a group of a dozen. The effectiveness of your wall is about 10%.
[quote]

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Issues: anything having to do with a reason for building or not building a wall. Which I have little opinion of and favor the not building side.

Pure mechanics: walls work, been proven through thousands of years , across cultures , in thousands of scenarios and continues to be proven every single day.
Walls work for what? You can't just say "walls work" without defining what function they are supposed to be for.

The walls in my house work to keep out the weather and various critters. They are very porous to any human being that wants to get in.

The border wall would do well at damming up creeks, interfering with migration, disrupting trade, and stealing people's land, but would not do much to prevent a human being that wanted to get in.
  #173  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:39 PM
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The thing that would really lower the need for border patrol by an order of magnitude would be, drum roll please, giving a lot less of a shit about undocumented border crossings.

They're not nearly as dangerous as people driving 10 miles above the speed limit, or driving while buzzed. They don't do nearly the damage to our economy that teenage shoplifters do. They don't put nearly as many workers out of business as do white-collar criminals.

They're small potatoes.
  #174  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:39 PM
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[QUOTE=k9bfriender;21459419]How fast are these ATVs that they are covering 5 miles in 3 minutes?

Also, how long do you think it takes for a motivated person to climb a wall?

When they show up on their quads, and a dozen people run in a dozen different directions, how do they catch them all? Do they just start shooting?

With this scenario, you've caught one or two of a group of a dozen. The effectiveness of your wall is about 10%.
Quote:



Walls work for what? You can't just say "walls work" without defining what function they are supposed to be for.

The walls in my house work to keep out the weather and various critters. They are very porous to any human being that wants to get in.

The border wall would do well at damming up creeks, interfering with migration, disrupting trade, and stealing people's land, but would not do much to prevent a human being that wanted to get in.
You detect a group on approach, not after breech.
If they are really good at hiding maybe , maybe they can get with a couple hundred yards assuming a lack of IR detection.

So, they need to run a couple hundred yards with a ladder, erect it , scale it .... Probably twice.

In 3 minutes .... Just so the first one over who happens to run a five minute mile in rough terrain can make it half a mile before CBP arrives. 2:30 later.

So if they all happen to be special forces, then best case scenario maybe 2-4 out if a group of a dozen highly fit individuals escape.
  #175  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:44 PM
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Why?

You're suggesting random patrols, plus guard towers, plus electronic monitoring. What does the wall add to that? How does it reduce the need for personnel? Seems like with the random patrols and guard towers you'll need more personnel?

I can see how walls would help in heavily-trafficked areas (where we already have fencing). But in the middle of nowhere? I don't see how it would help at all.
Why does it do that ... really?


How does a current wall acheive that function in heavy traffic areas?
  #176  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:45 PM
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Also, how long do you think it takes for a motivated person to climb a wall?
Incidentally, here's a dude climbing a 35' ladder. He's clearly not in a hurry. It takes him 20 seconds to mosey up there.
This guy takes nine seconds to go 30' up a wall. To be fair, he's got training. On the other hand, he doesn't have a ladder, he only has a pole; and he's trying to be stealthy.

These guys unload a ladder from a truck, sprint about 50', and climb up a ladder, all in 12 seconds.

Three minutes may highball the estimate .

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 01-29-2019 at 05:46 PM.
  #177  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:46 PM
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The point that I think we (or, at least me) have been trying to make is not that "walls don't work," it's that "walls *can* work, but in this case, in this situation, the vague proposal that Trump has made almost undoubtedly would *not* work as he and his supporters believe it would."

A fortified, militarized border, with heavy patrols and numerous features beyond "a wall" probably would work. First, that's not what Trump has seemed to propose. Second, the issues of exerting eminent domain over many thousands of acres of privately owned land, as well as the fact that the entire Texas / Mexico border is a river, are huge issues. And, third, building something that would actually work (i.e., a militarized border zone) would be ridiculously expensive, orders of magnitude beyond the $5.7 billion, or whatever number Trump has pulled out of thin air.
Oh I see exactly what you mean there but
apparently there really are people who have no idea how a wall could possibly function to help secure an area.
There's a million valid reasons it's a bad idea.
Walls have no effectiveness is just not one of them.
  #178  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:49 PM
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The why did they bother with a wall at all?

Why not just guards. Oh because it would have taken 100 times more guards to still make it 99 percent effective.
This is a nonsensical argument. You are comparing the effectiveness of the Berlin Wall system (wall + fence + guards every few hundred feet + dogs + land mines + everything else they had) with what is proposed as basically a standalone wall, with zero land mines and zero guard towers and zero shoot-to-kill orders and most if not all of the guards and dogs dozens of miles away. Those are not equivalent, and trying to pretend that they are makes no sense at all.

If you want to propose a Berlin-like system along the border, then feel free, but that's not what Trump has proposed at any point, so the objections about effectiveness are made in response to what he really has proposed. Would you care to make arguments about the effectiveness of an essentially unmanned wall that doesn't have land mines?
  #179  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:50 PM
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Incidentally, here's a dude climbing a 35' ladder. He's clearly not in a hurry. It takes him 20 seconds to mosey up there.
This guy takes nine seconds to go 30' up a wall. To be fair, he's got training. On the other hand, he doesn't have a ladder, he only has a pole; and he's trying to be stealthy.

These guys unload a ladder from a truck, sprint about 50', and climb up a ladder, all in 12 seconds.

Three minutes may highball the estimate .
How about a group of a dozen running 300 yards with a ladder and some carpet ,climbing it one at a time, then recovering it, running 20 yards then doing it again.

Then running far enough not to be able to be caught after the fact.
  #180  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:51 PM
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How does a current wall acheive that function in heavy traffic areas?
In heavy traffic areas, you are presumably putting your border agents in the vicinity too, so when somebody goes over the wall, there's somebody close at hand to catch them. Mr. Trump and his administration have made no comparable proposal for the vast empty stretches that comprise most of the border.
  #181  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:53 PM
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This is a nonsensical argument. You are comparing the effectiveness of the Berlin Wall system (wall + fence + guards every few hundred feet + dogs + land mines + everything else they had) with what is proposed as basically a standalone wall, with zero land mines and zero guard towers and zero shoot-to-kill orders and most if not all of the guards and dogs dozens of miles away. Those are not equivalent, and trying to pretend that they are makes no sense at all.

If you want to propose a Berlin-like system along the border, then feel free, but that's not what Trump has proposed at any point, so the objections about effectiveness are made in response to what he really has proposed. Would you care to make arguments about the effectiveness of an essentially unmanned wall that doesn't have land mines?
Unmanned wall does nothing.

And no, it's a perfect counterpoint..... according to what you're saying the wall itself had zero affect on the effectiveness, yet they improved it three separate times.
If all the other factors were enough, there wouldn't have been a wall at all, it would just have been the Berlin military zone.
  #182  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:54 PM
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You detect a group on approach, not after breech.
If they are really good at hiding maybe , maybe they can get with a couple hundred yards assuming a lack of IR detection.

So, they need to run a couple hundred yards with a ladder, erect it , scale it .... Probably twice.
So, we have continuous IR detection out to a "couple hundred yards" all along the wall's 2,000 mile stretch. That sounds expensive.

A 30 foot aluminum ladder does't weigh all that much, and a couple people carrying it will not take that long to cross your couple hundred yards of distance that is being constantly monitored.

Climbing 30 feet doesn't take long either.
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In 3 minutes .... Just so the first one over who happens to run a five minute mile in rough terrain can make it half a mile before CBP arrives. 2:30 later.
You do realize that you are calling for the border patrol agents to be traveling about 100 mph on their atv's to do that, right?
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So if they all happen to be special forces, then best case scenario maybe 2-4 out if a group of a dozen highly fit individuals escape.
You seem to be comparing people who are rather desperate to escape from violence and poverty with the lazy americans that you know.

Once again, how exactly are they being apprehended? Are we just shooting at anyone who runs?
  #183  
Old 01-29-2019, 05:54 PM
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In heavy traffic areas, you are presumably putting your border agents in the vicinity too, so when somebody goes over the wall, there's somebody close at hand to catch them. Mr. Trump and his administration have made no comparable proposal for the vast empty stretches that comprise most of the border.
So why use a wall? Why not just the agents? After all the wall has no function
  #184  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:02 PM
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How about a group of a dozen running 300 yards with a ladder and some carpet ,climbing it one at a time, then recovering it, running 20 yards then doing it again.

Then running far enough not to be able to be caught after the fact.
How long do they need, given that the agents trying to catch them may well be dozens of miles away?

Also note this new report (released in December 2018) from Homeland Security's Inspector General about the contract DHS signed with Accenture to recruit 7,500 new border patrol agents. In the first ten months of the contract, they hired ....

...wait for it....


two.

Accenture collected $13 million in expenses, plus a $40K/head bonus, and they found TWO people willing to work for the Border Patrol who could pass the tests and background checks.
  #185  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:05 PM
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So, we have continuous IR detection out to a "couple hundred yards" all along the wall's 2,000 mile stretch. That sounds expensive.

A 30 foot aluminum ladder does't weigh all that much, and a couple people carrying it will not take that long to cross your couple hundred yards of distance that is being constantly monitored.

Climbing 30 feet doesn't take long either.

You do realize that you are calling for the border patrol agents to be traveling about 100 mph on their atv's to do that, right?


You seem to be comparing people who are rather desperate to escape from violence and poverty with the lazy americans that you know.

Once again, how exactly are they being apprehended? Are we just shooting at anyone who runs?
2:30 to go 2.5 miles.... That's 60mph

Individual performance is staggeringly faster than a group. Just in case you've never done a team obstacle course.

Hell if just climbing s ladder is 10 seconds it's takes 1:20 for a dozen people.... Ideally
2:40 to do it twice.
Plus 45 for a 300 yard dash

We're at 3:25 already

iR detection is extremely cheap.
  #186  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:06 PM
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How about a group of a dozen running 300 yards with a ladder and some carpet ,climbing it one at a time, then recovering it, running 20 yards then doing it again.

Then running far enough not to be able to be caught after the fact.
How about:

1) Cite that the wall would be equipped along its length with sensors that would detect potential crossers out to 300 yards, and would be able to reliably distinguish at that distance between humans, coyotes, cattle, and dust devils.

2) Explain why you think that an entire group of 1 dozen crossers would be relying on a single ladder, instead of having 1 ladder per 2-4 crossers.

3) Explain why they'd have to do it 20 yards later--is there a specific proposal with two walls that you're talking about? (I may have missed your proposal above with two walls).

4) Cite that border guards are available on a hair-trigger basis, already in vehicles, ready to travel up to 5 miles (so, these hair-trigger guards are posted no more than 10 miles apart) at breakneck speeds to capture border crossers.

I mean, if money and realism are no object, I'ma just hire Tony Stark to put autonomous Iron-Man suits all along the border. But the fantasy you're fantasizing bears zero resemblance to any specific proposal I've seen put forward.
  #187  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:07 PM
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Unmanned wall does nothing.
And yet an unmanned wall is precisely the proposal to which we are reacting.

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And no, it's a perfect counterpoint..... according to what you're saying the wall itself had zero affect on the effectiveness, yet they improved it three separate times. If all the other factors were enough, there wouldn't have been a wall at all, it would just have been the Berlin military zone.
I never said the wall itself had zero effect, so please don't put words in my mouth. The East Germans NEVER had an unmanned wall; they used a wall in conjunction with guards and dogs and land mines and so forth and so on. We here are discussing Mr. Trump's proposal, which is exactly like the East German solution except for the guards and the dogs and the land mines and so forth and so on.
  #188  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:10 PM
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2:30 to go 2.5 miles.... That's 60mph.
Realistically, though, the guards are more likely to be 25 miles away than 2.5; do you have any conception at all how remote and empty the borderlands really are? Or are you planning to set up hundreds more outposts so you can station agents every five miles?
  #189  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:13 PM
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2:30 to go 2.5 miles.... That's 60mph
I thought you had said 5 miles in 3 minutes in a previous post.

Of course, if you change the distance, you can change the time.

Also, 60mph if pretty damn fast for an ATV
Quote:
Individual performance is staggeringly faster than a group. Just in case you've never done a team obstacle course.
Only if you have langoliers in your group.
Quote:
Hell if just climbing s ladder is 10 seconds it's takes 1:20 for a dozen people.... Ideally
2:40 to do it twice.
Why do they have to climb it one at a time?
Quote:
Plus 45 for a 300 yard dash

We're at 3:25 already
And the border patrol shows up to see a cheap ladder agsint the wall, and the back ends of a couple of new immigrants.

Do they shoot?
Quote:
iR detection is extremely cheap.
define extremely, and define what cheap mens when you are detecting out to a couple hundred yards along a 2,000 mile long wall. Keep in mind that we are no just putting in sensors, but the wiring for power and communication, and then we need to have someone who actually monitors these things.

Put a cost on it.
  #190  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:25 PM
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I thought you had said 5 miles in 3 minutes in a previous post.

Of course, if you change the distance, you can change the time.

Also, 60mph if pretty damn fast for an ATV

Only if you have langoliers in your group.

Why do they have to climb it one at a time?

And the border patrol shows up to see a cheap ladder agsint the wall, and the back ends of a couple of new immigrants.

Do they shoot?


define extremely, and define what cheap mens when you are detecting out to a couple hundred yards along a 2,000 mile long wall. Keep in mind that we are no just putting in sensors, but the wiring for power and communication, and then we need to have someone who actually monitors these things.

Put a cost on it.
You'd only be 5 miles out if you waited until after a breech to react.
If you had any warning whatsoever you are much closer already

Thermal imaging cameras that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards cost $200

Last edited by Littleman; 01-29-2019 at 06:29 PM.
  #191  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:26 PM
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And yet an unmanned wall is precisely the proposal to which we are reacting.



I never said the wall itself had zero effect, so please don't put words in my mouth. The East Germans NEVER had an unmanned wall; they used a wall in conjunction with guards and dogs and land mines and so forth and so on. We here are discussing Mr. Trump's proposal, which is exactly like the East German solution except for the guards and the dogs and the land mines and so forth and so on.
You said it was everything else that made it work, not the wall itself.
  #192  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:34 PM
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And yet an unmanned wall is precisely the proposal to which we are reacting.



I never said the wall itself had zero effect, so please don't put words in my mouth. The East Germans NEVER had an unmanned wall; they used a wall in conjunction with guards and dogs and land mines and so forth and so on. We here are discussing Mr. Trump's proposal, which is exactly like the East German solution except for the guards and the dogs and the land mines and so forth and so on.
Are we? Because this was all a hypothetical response to what sort of wall i would set up if I were so inclined.
  #193  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:37 PM
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Unmanned wall does nothing.
Then you are agreeing with everyone else that "the Wall" would be ineffective.

Trump has never proposed anything like the Berlin Wall situation. It is irrelevant, because it is something different. It's like pointing to an airplane when someone points out that adding wings to a car won't make it fly. Yes, wings have a purpose in the airplane. But adding wings to a car would be completely ineffective.

You're the one who is trying to change the Wing into the airplane. You think "the Wall" means some extensive system. But that has never been what Trump has proposed.

Becsuse, once you do propose that, you realize that the Wall part is the least necessary part. You just need some sort of barrier. It can be a natural barrier. It can be a much cheaper fence. There is no reason for it to be a wall.

"The Wall" is a dumb, ineffective idea. The fact that you have to add stuff to it to make it effective means it is ineffective. Sure there whole can be more than the sum of its parts, but "The Wall," on its own, would be ineffective.

So it makes perfect sense that we call it ineffective.
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  #194  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:39 PM
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Hey while we're at it we could save a bunch of money by building all prisons without walls.

I mean there's armed guards right there anyhow that can response immediately. The walls don't do anything.
  #195  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:41 PM
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Then you are agreeing with everyone else that "the Wall" would be ineffective.

Trump has never proposed anything like the Berlin Wall situation. It is irrelevant, because it is something different. It's like pointing to an airplane when someone points out that adding wings to a car won't make it fly. Yes, wings have a purpose in the airplane. But adding wings to a car would be completely ineffective.

You're the one who is trying to change the Wing into the airplane. You think "the Wall" means some extensive system. But that has never been what Trump has proposed.

Becsuse, once you do propose that, you realize that the Wall part is the least necessary part. You just need some sort of barrier. It can be a natural barrier. It can be a much cheaper fence. There is no reason for it to be a wall.

"The Wall" is a dumb, ineffective idea. The fact that you have to add stuff to it to make it effective means it is ineffective. Sure there whole can be more than the sum of its parts, but "The Wall," on its own, would be ineffective.

So it makes perfect sense that we call it ineffective.
If a lone unmanned wall with no CBP is the proposal than I'm definitely wrong and Trump's wall would definitely be inneffective
  #196  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:06 PM
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There are currently 20k CBP agents on Mexican border, so there's already 10 per mile.
  #197  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:08 PM
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Thermal imaging cameras that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards cost $200
You don't need a thermal imaging camera that can make out a person at a couple hundred yards.

You need a thermal imaging camera hooked up to a network that can distinguish a person from a dust devil or cow at 300 yards, along with a power network that's not easily disrupted, and that's not affected by weather.

Can you show us how much that costs? Like, with a link?

I won't say your claim is bullshit, because I don't know a lot about IR technology. But I'll be pretty surprised if the technology you're imagining actually exists, much less costs $200 per camera.
  #198  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:36 PM
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You can accomplish comprehensive border security of this without
No, stop saying that. "Comprehensive," i.e., nigh-complete, border security would require militarization. Just stop even putting that objective out there. We need border cooperation with Mexico, not border aggression against her.
  #199  
Old 01-29-2019, 07:58 PM
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There are currently 20k CBP agents on Mexican border, so there's already 10 per mile.
No, there are not.

The most recent statistics I can find show about 20,000 CBP agents NATIONWIDE. The Mexican border gets most of those, but there are a couple of thousand along the Canadian border. The Southwest border sectors have around 16,600.

Now remember that these "sectors" extend far inland; Yuma Sector, for example, extends to the Nevada/Idaho border. Relatively few agents are assigned that far from the border, but some are.

Of the ones who are on the border, perhaps a quarter of those are on duty at any given time, a chunk of those on duty will be on other assignments (training, testifying, preparing paperwork, etc.), and a lot of those on duty and on the job will be assigned to the major crossing points. At any given time, there are dozens of agents working at San Ysidro, for example, actually AT the port of entry or working the surrounding land. That doesn't leave many for the wide open spaces, where the actual ratio is probably more like one agent per ten miles.
  #200  
Old 01-29-2019, 08:05 PM
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If a lone unmanned wall with no CBP is the proposal than I'm definitely wrong and Trump's wall would definitely be inneffective
Yay! You finally got it!
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