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  #1  
Old 03-22-2019, 04:20 PM
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Mueller report is done


I think this is going to be repeat of the OJ verdict. Some people really happy , others not happy.


https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-ne...ort/index.html
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:27 PM
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Given that it was released on a Friday afternoon, I think people looking for major revelations or reasons to cashier Trump are going to be disappointed. But time will tell.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:30 PM
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Given that it was released on a Friday afternoon, I think people looking for major revelations or reasons to cashier Trump are going to be disappointed. But time will tell.
What is the logic here?
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:38 PM
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Not really the "final report", according to Seth Abramson: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...03639581712386
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:39 PM
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What about the case that the supreme Court still has to decide on about the mystery company? And I guess Trump Jr gets off for now?
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:42 PM
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What is the logic here?
Friday afternoons are the traditional time for organizations to release documents that they don't want a lot of attention called to. The thinking is that no one is paying attention to the news on Friday afternoons, and by the time the weekend is over hopefully other news will supplant it.

How much that works is open to debate, but it's been a known tactic for decades. It's often referred to as "The Friday Night Document Dump."

However, in this case it could just be because when you wrap things up you often time it so that you're done at the end of a week. Or there could be other reasons. But still, if you wanted a document to have maximum media impact, a Monday morning is a lot better time, so that you can grab at least some of the news cycle before other news takes over.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 03-22-2019 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:45 PM
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Friday afternoons are the traditional time for organizations to release documents that they don't want a lot of attention called to. The thinking is that no one is paying attention to the news on Friday afternoons, and by the time the weekend is over hopefully other news will supplant it.

How much that works is open to debate, but it's been a known tactic for decades. It's often referred to as "The Friday Night Document Dump."
Interesting. Thanks. Though I don't see THE Mueller Report ever NOT getting a lot of attention. The broke into a basketball game to give us the Special News Report.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:46 PM
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True. And since it's still sealed until AG Barr releases his review, there isn't much news anyway. The real news will be made when Barr releases the findings and his action plan for dealing with them.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:50 PM
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The real news will be made when Barr releases the findings and his action plan for dealing with them.
And what if that happens on a friday afternoon?
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:52 PM
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Friday afternoons are the traditional time for organizations to release documents that they don't want a lot of attention called to. The thinking is that no one is paying attention to the news on Friday afternoons, and by the time the weekend is over hopefully other news will supplant it.

How much that works is open to debate, but it's been a known tactic for decades. It's often referred to as "The Friday Night Document Dump."
Yeah, but come on, it's the god-damned Mueller Report. Like anybody, pro-Trump, anti-Trump, anti-anti-Trump, or neutral (?), is just going to not notice when he turns in his report, just because it's Friday afternoon. "Say, whatever happened to that guy--Miller, Moller, what was his name? He was doing that investigation into, you know, the President of the United States maybe colluding with Russia to steal the election, or something like that. Anything ever come of that?"

"Oh, yeah, WaPo had a story on page B3 a while back. You know, they pulled the old 'Friday afternoon, bury the report' trick, and it just kind of got buried by all those stories about the whole 'Hollywood-celebrities-bribing-colleges-to-take-their-kids' scandal. Plus, there was, like, a double homicide down in Anacostia."
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:55 PM
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Since Trump is saying he doesn't care if the report goes public, I'm guessing he has intel there is nothing there.

Either that or he knows Barr is going to keep it under wraps.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:57 PM
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Since Trump is saying he doesn't care if the report goes public, I'm guessing he has intel there is nothing there.

Either that or he knows Barr is going to keep it under wraps.
I'm guessing he said that because he knew there was no good way to stop it from happening.
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Old 03-22-2019, 04:59 PM
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That’s when the person delivering the news cares about the reaction. By all accounts, Mueller is a honest and honorable person, he has no vested interest in the findings of the report, only that the report is competently completed. I imagine that they released it on Friday so that the team could have one quiet weekend while people read the report. Monday is going to be crazy for them.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:10 PM
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Since Trump is saying he doesn't care if the report goes public, I'm guessing he has intel there is nothing there.
Either that or he knows Barr is going to keep it under wraps.
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I'm guessing he said that because he knew there was no good way to stop it from happening.
It's Trump's pattern: he claims he's perfectly willing to cooperate with whatever (for example, sitting down with Mueller), and then his people chime in with 'oh, no, that's not going to happen, that would be a violation of Presidential Whatever.'

(As Grrr! alluded in that last sentence.)

Trump looks to the gullible like a Guy with Nothing to Hide, but he's completely secure in the knowledge that what he wants hidden will stay hidden.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:21 PM
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Friday afternoons are the traditional time for organizations to release documents that they don't want a lot of attention called to. The thinking is that no one is paying attention to the news on Friday afternoons, and by the time the weekend is over hopefully other news will supplant it.

How much that works is open to debate, but it's been a known tactic for decades. It's often referred to as "The Friday Night Document Dump."

However, in this case it could just be because when you wrap things up you often time it so that you're done at the end of a week. Or there could be other reasons. But still, if you wanted a document to have maximum media impact, a Monday morning is a lot better time, so that you can grab at least some of the news cycle before other news takes over.
Your logic makes no sense. Why would the Trump-appointed Attorney General want to make a big splash with a report that is damaging to the President?

Conversely, why would the AG seek to bury (so much as it is feasible) a report that clears the President?

I speculate that Barr doesn’t actually know what’s in the report yet, and nothing should be read into the timing.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:30 PM
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Boy! We sure got him now!

There is no way that this Trump thing will last much more than another six years
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:34 PM
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But still, if you wanted a document to have maximum media impact, a Monday morning is a lot better time, so that you can grab at least some of the news cycle before other news takes over.
First of all, Mueller himself has never shown any sign of being concerned about media impact. Second, this investigation has dominated the news cycle for two years. It will dominate the news cycle even it had been released at 3 AM on a Sunday.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:45 PM
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First of all, Mueller himself has never shown any sign of being concerned about media impact.
He didn’t release anything to the press. He provided the confidential report to Barr at some point - maybe not even today - and Barr publicized that he received the report.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:06 PM
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From the Guardian:

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Mueller report: no new indictments recommended, says DoJ official – live
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:10 PM
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According to lawyer Seth Abramson, this doesn't actually mean much -- he may have referred indictments to other offices, or many other possibilities: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...03639581712386
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:12 PM
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I'm sure Trump Jr. and Kushner are ecstatic!
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:18 PM
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According to lawyer Seth Abramson, this doesn't actually mean much -- he may have referred indictments to other offices, or many other possibilities: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...03639581712386
There's also the fact that considering the DOJ opinion on not being able to indict a sitting president, there could be a mountain load of juicy stuff about Trump that wouldn't cause Mueller to recommend an indictment.

This is definitely a story worth waiting for actual info release, rather than jump all over anonymous hints.

Last edited by CarnalK; 03-22-2019 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:30 PM
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Boy! We sure got him now!

There is no way that this Trump thing will last much more than another six years
I posted this 2 years ago:

The whole thing reminds me a lot about the last episode were Michael J Fox was officially a cast member in the show Spin City.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0707023/
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When Sheridan goes public about the Winston administration's links to organized crime, Mike decides to take the fall and save everyone else. He submits his resignation, leading everyone to drown their sorrows and say their goodbyes.
I think that, besides the message to be loyal and to be willing to be a fall guy for what you know it was caused by the naiveté of your boss (and Mike knew how important it was anyhow to help his boss to keep his position after he and the staff got rid of the bad influences), one message should not be lost: the politician did learn the lesson to avoid the mafioso that was influencing policy. It was, even though in fiction, an example of how shining light on conflicts of interest and suspicious connections is supposed to work in helping democracies to fight corruption in the near past.

Of course, in real life nowadays I do not see anyone that is willing to take the blame, because Trump also has a knack for selecting people that are as conning (yes, not "cunning" but "conning") as he is. They only are loyal to themselves. And unlike Winston (the naive boss of Mike) Trump is not naive, he is too close to corruption. He is still looking to get close to undemocratic thugs, undemocratic leaders and other unsavory people that are not really thinking much about the well being of the USA.

In essence, I do think that the effort of forcing Trump to RTFM of what a president of the USA is supposed to be or to learn how to at least avoid bad connections or the appearance of bad conflicts of interest is a very worthy effort indeed.

That, and this helps us to find who are the rascals that continue to look the other way when they see the reprehensible behavior of Trump. It helps us to toss them out in the next elections.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:32 PM
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... This is definitely a story worth waiting for actual info release, rather than jump all over anonymous hints.
Sure, I'm just expecting the end result to be something like this.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:49 PM
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I'm quite sure you're mistaking fantasizing for expecting.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:07 PM
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I guarantee Trump will look bad after this report.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:15 PM
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I guarantee Trump will look bad after this report.
He looks bad already, but I want to know if he broke any laws - ultimately, that's what really matters.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:56 PM
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There's also the fact that considering the DOJ opinion on not being able to indict a sitting president, there could be a mountain load of juicy stuff about Trump that wouldn't cause Mueller to recommend an indictment.

This is definitely a story worth waiting for actual info release, rather than jump all over anonymous hints.
My limited reading on the subject seemed to say if you don't indict someone you can't make claims about their behavior, or something like that. Clearly I'm not committed but don't have time to look it up.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:01 PM
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I'm quite sure you're mistaking fantasizing for expecting.
I think the operative principle here is that no matter what the report says, it will be deemed by stalwart Republicans to be a mere "nothing". These will be the same Republicans who just knew that Brett Kavanaugh was totally innocent -- no doubt about it -- because ... well, just look at him. And that Cohen was totally lying in his sworn testimony because ... well, just look at him. The same Republicans who believe it's just "nothing" that Trump lies every time he opens his mouth, that he's congenitally incapable of telling the truth -- ever; that his entire history of criminal malfeasance from the Trump University scam to paying off prostitutes and then lying about it was just "nothing". There is nothing to see here. Now Hillary and those emails and that pizza parlor -- now that's something. Or Bill Clinton getting a blow job -- or Barack Obama getting elected president while black -- those are the things that threaten the very bedrock of the nation!
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:02 PM
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So would a statement like this be in or out of bounds: “I have reason to believe, through preponderance of evidence, that X did Y and Z. However, I do not believe it is sufficient to recommend pursuing charges at this time.”

ETA: wolfpup’s post above reminded me how I wondered what some expected out of this report. If it was to uncover evidence sufficient for Republicans to help impeach the president, or significantly harm his political standing, I don’t think it was ever going to happen, no matter what. If anything less than this is him “skating,” then he was always gonna skate. I think the best we could hope for is further ammo for future elections and state based investigations.

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Old 03-22-2019, 10:11 PM
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I guarantee Trump will look bad after this report.
He already looks bad now. What changes?
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:20 PM
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He already looks bad now. What changes?
Out of a deep, heartfelt sense of patriotism and honor, Trump apologizes to the nation and resigns.

Bwahahahahahahah. Patriotism. Honor....Trump. Bwahahahahahahaha.
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:38 PM
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Not really the "final report", according to Seth Abramson: https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...03639581712386
Thank you very much for that, iiandyiiii-san! After a day of obsessing over the story, IMHO this is the very best perspective I have yet seen. Ever doper worthy of the name should read the whole thing. *bows*
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:08 PM
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Trump is entirely innocent! Principle being, when you peel away the outer layers of the Mongolian Cluster Fuck, you always find a virgin in the center.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:39 PM
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Thank you very much for that, iiandyiiii-san! After a day of obsessing over the story, IMHO this is the very best perspective I have yet seen. Ever doper worthy of the name should read the whole thing. *bows*
LOL @ "So there are three key "c"-words here" none of which are COLLUSION. I stopped reading there.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:14 AM
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LOL @ "So there are three key "c"-words here" none of which are COLLUSION. I stopped reading there.
And... that shows that you did not pay attention, except to what Trump wanted you and others to only see.

https://www.alternet.org/2018/06/hbo...minds-mueller/
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Trump is also working to "redefine the investigation on his terms," Oliver said. Fox News uses inaccurate framing to put words in the mouth of the special counsel.

The HBO host showed several clips in which Fox personalities keep asking for evidence of collusion, saying that if Mueller can't find it, no one is guilty. The reality is 20 people have been indicted thus far under the Russia investigation, and splinter investigations have been discovered in the process.

The investigation also isn't actually about collusion, rather it's about whether a person or the campaign conspired with the Russian government to infiltrate the 2016 election. The Trump allies maintain there is "zero evidence" to confirm anything. The reality, however, is that no one has any idea what has been found under the secret grand jury. In many cases, Mueller's office has managed to keep things secret for months, until public court documents are filed and reported.

"So, saying the investigation has to shut down if there's no collusion is like saying a game of Scrabble has to end because you fit all of the letters in your mouth," Oliver said.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:22 AM
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... The investigation also isn't actually about collusion, rather it's about whether a person or the campaign conspired with the Russian government to infiltrate the 2016 election. ...
That is pure unadulterated bullshit.

From CNN - 2016 Presidential Election Investigation Fast Facts:

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... Special counsel Robert Mueller and multiple congressional committees are looking into allegations that there was collusion between Russian operatives and Trump associates during the presidential campaign and transition. ...
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:45 AM
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It's been explained, many times (not just on the Dope, but in various media outlets), that there really no crime of "collusion." What the crime is is the conspiracy. "Collusion" is kind of a catch-all term used to include all the various aspects of the investigation.

"Collusion" itself may not be illegal, but there are aspects of it that may be.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:46 AM
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That is pure unadulterated bullshit.

From CNN - 2016 Presidential Election Investigation Fast Facts:
Feel free to check the original appointment to investigate the issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A...tters.pdf#file
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Department of Justice

Office of Public Affairs

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Wednesday, May 17, 2017

Appointment of Special Counsel

Deputy Attorney General Rod J. Rosenstein today announced the appointment of former Department of Justice official and FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III to serve as Special Counsel to oversee the previously-confirmed FBI investigation of Russian government efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election and related matters.

“In my capacity as acting Attorney General, I determined that it is in the public interest for me to exercise my authority and appoint a Special Counsel to assume responsibility for this matter,” said Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein. “My decision is not a finding that crimes have been committed or that any prosecution is warranted. I have made no such determination. What I have determined is that based upon the unique circumstances, the public interest requires me to place this investigation under the authority of a person who exercises a degree of independence from the normal chain of command.”
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:48 AM
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It's been explained, many times (not just on the Dope, but in various media outlets), that there really no crime of "collusion." What the crime is is the conspiracy. "Collusion" is kind of a catch-all term used to include all the various aspects of the investigation.

"Collusion" itself may not be illegal, but there are aspects of it that may be.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion
And that is why Trump has been pounding on the collusion drum. Easy to claim exoneration for something that was not the reason for the investigation and also an iffy crime.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:38 AM
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“No new indictments,” to me, is certainly open to the interpretation that the SC feels that any extant sealed indictments are sufficient. Man, we still have a long way to go.
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Old 03-23-2019, 07:40 AM
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He already looks bad now. What changes?
You got the point, nothing changes or it gets worse.
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Old 03-23-2019, 09:30 AM
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You got the point, nothing changes or it gets worse.
I think if nots bad then Trump gets a 5 point boost in polls.
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Old 03-23-2019, 10:00 AM
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LOL @ "So there are three key "c"-words here" none of which are COLLUSION. I stopped reading there.
Ignorance is strength!
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:07 AM
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I can't help but try to read into the fact that Trump hasn't tweeted.
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Old 03-23-2019, 11:30 AM
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Collusion may not be a crime in and of itself, but it is 100% a thing that happened between individuals in the Trump campaign and individuals who were part of the Russian effort to interfere with the US election for Trump's benefit.

The easiest example (but not the only example) is probably Paul Manafort, while he was running the Trump campaign, travelled to Madrid to give internal campaign polling data to Konstantin Kilimnik. That is collusion by any reasonable definition.

Now that that has been established we can move on from the collusion/no collusion argument. There is publicly available proof of collusion.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:38 PM
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Anyone want to lay odds* on the report being leaked? Mueller ran a tight ship, but the report is now in the hands of the notoriously undisciplined Trump administration. I think there's a better than 50/50 chance that at least parts of the report turn up in major news outlets this coming week.

*Note for the literalists out there: no, I don't literally want to bet money on it. I'm too cheap and too uninformed to actually put money on any of my predictions. See also, my posting history from 2015. I've been wrong about everything.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:50 PM
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Some reporters I follow on Twitter are saying that Trump and Giuliani are both in very good moods today. This has me panicking.
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Old 03-23-2019, 12:57 PM
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LOL @ "So there are three key "c"-words here" none of which are COLLUSION. I stopped reading there.
So the fact that the very first c-word in question is "criminal" is not a matter of concern for you?
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Old 03-23-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
Anyone want to lay odds* on the report being leaked? Mueller ran a tight ship, but the report is now in the hands of the notoriously undisciplined Trump administration. I think there's a better than 50/50 chance that at least parts of the report turn up in major news outlets this coming week.

*Note for the literalists out there: no, I don't literally want to bet money on it. I'm too cheap and too uninformed to actually put money on any of my predictions. See also, my posting history from 2015. I've been wrong about everything.
I think it’s lile 97% certain that the report will be released officially, with maybe some redactions for classified information. I don’t think a leak is needed or likely.
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