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  #101  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:11 PM
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As we're still getting a sense for what's really in the report, it's too early to tell how all of this will play out, but politically, this could actually turn out to be Red Bull for democrats if there's a sense that justice has been miscarried.
  #102  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:14 PM
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One good thing about Barr's summary -- it should make it much, much easier for the Democrats to make a case that Mueller's report must be made public.
  #103  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:16 PM
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Breaking news from France 24

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Mueller report says Trump campaign did not 'conspire or coordinate' with Russia to affect 2016 vote (Justice Department)
  #104  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:23 PM
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Breaking news from France 24
Except we know Roger Stone and Manafort did.
  #105  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:26 PM
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The Telegraph is reporting that Trump has been exhonorated.

Quote:
In the summary, Mr Mueller is quoted saying: “[T]he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities."

Elsewhere Mr Mueller is quoted saying: "The evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference".
But we need to be careful:

Quote:
However Democrats are demanding that Mr Mueller’s full confidential report be published and that all the underlying documents be handed to Congress so they can be reviewed. The topline findings from Mr Mueller’s report were contained in a four-page summary written by William Barr, the US attorney general.
  #106  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:30 PM
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Was it a total exoneration? If so, let's see the whole report. If so, then the Trump administration should have nothing to fear from releasing the whole report.

If they strongly resist releasing the whole report (as I suspect they will), then it's probably not a total exoneration, or anything close.
  #107  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:41 PM
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Doesn't the report go to Congress? So Trump can't conceal it.
  #108  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:42 PM
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No, it most certainly is not total exoneration (White House lies aside.) Barr's summary quotes the Mueller report on the issue of obstruction...from the BBC:

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The letter then quotes directly from Mr Mueller's report: "While this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."
  #109  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:43 PM
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Doesn't the report go to Congress? So Trump can't conceal it.
It should, but we'll see. The only people that have access to Mueller's report are in Trump's DOJ, right now, unless someone has leaked it. If they can find any way to refuse Congress access, they probably will. And if they try to do this, then it seems likely to believe that there's something in the report that they don't want the public (and Congressional Democrats) to see.
  #110  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:45 PM
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As far as I can tell fro my non-lawyer reading of Barr's letter, Barr states directly that there is in fact evidence that Trump or those close to him committed obstruction of justice, but not enough to warrant a criminal indictment. It seems reasonable to suppose that Trump and his team don't want this evidence to be made public.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-24-2019 at 04:46 PM.
  #111  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:47 PM
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I'm looking forward to reading this part of the report some day...

"...despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."
  #112  
Old 03-24-2019, 05:00 PM
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The report doesn't 'exonerate' him because you can't prove a negative. That may be all Mueller is saying.

But don't worry - since the Democrats in the House will get to see it (at least the ones on the relevant committees), if there's anything in there that's damaging to Trump it will be leaked.

And since Barr knows this, I have confidence that the basics of his statement are true - even if he may be leaving out some details that make Trump look bad but not in a criminal way. We'll find out soon enough.
  #113  
Old 03-24-2019, 05:23 PM
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The report doesn't 'exonerate' him because you can't prove a negative. That may be all Mueller is saying.
We still haven't heard Mueller say anything at all.
  #114  
Old 03-24-2019, 05:23 PM
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..
But don't worry - since the Democrats in the House will get to see it (at least the ones on the relevant committees), if there's anything in there that's damaging to Trump it will be leaked.
...
Trump has called for the entire thing to be made available to the public. Why not just do what the smart man says?
  #115  
Old 03-24-2019, 05:40 PM
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Trump has called for the entire thing to be made available to the public. Why not just do what the smart man says?
Well, for one thing, as the AG laid out in his letter:

Quote:
...Based on my discussions with the Special Counsel and my initial review, it is apparent that the report contains material that is or could be subject to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6( e ), which imposes restrictions on the use and disclosure of information relating to "matter[ s] occurring before [a] grand jury." Fed. R. Crim. P. 6(e)(2)(B). Rule 6(e) generally limits disclosure of certain grand jury information in a criminal investigation and prosecution. Id. Disclosure of 6( e) material beyond the strict limits set forth in the rule is a crime in certain circumstances. See, e.g., 18 U.S.C. § 401(3). ...
  #116  
Old 03-24-2019, 05:55 PM
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The report doesn't 'exonerate' him because you can't prove a negative.
That word was the Telegraph's.
  #117  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:04 PM
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Well, for one thing, as the AG laid out in his letter:

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..Based on my discussions with the Special Counsel and my initial review, it is apparent that the report contains material that is or could be subject to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6( e ), which imposes restrictions on the use and disclosure of information relating to "matter[ s] occurring before [a] grand jury." Fed. R. Crim. P. 6(e)(2)(B). Rule 6(e) generally limits disclosure of certain grand jury information in a criminal investigation and prosecution. Id. Disclosure of 6( e) material beyond the strict limits set forth in the rule is a crime in certain circumstances. See, e.g., 18 U.S.C. § 401(3). ...
Those circumstances don't obtain here, because there is no criminal prosecution occurring. No indictments, remember?

Moreover, the rules of the Justice Department are rules, not laws. Barr is AG. He can change the rules....if he wishes to.

In short, the claim that 'we can't release the Mueller Report because it has some grand jury-related content' is a transparently weak excuse for an attempt to shield Trump from the probable effects of public knowledge of his wrongdoing (as laid out in the Report).

[my emphasis]

Last edited by Sherrerd; 03-24-2019 at 06:05 PM.
  #118  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:10 PM
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As far as I can tell fro my non-lawyer reading of Barr's letter, Barr states directly that there is in fact evidence that Trump or those close to him committed obstruction of justice, but not enough to warrant a criminal indictment. It seems reasonable to suppose that Trump and his team don't want this evidence to be made public.
That's right, but I'm already hearing the less-intellectually-gifted weekend anchors and analysts---not the openly right-wing ones, but the regular crew---report this as 'according to the report there is no evidence that Trump or those close to him committed any crimes' and the like.

The too-frequent misinterpretations of what Barr's summary says is a dream-come-true for our authoritarian-adjacent friends.

[my emphasis]
  #119  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:23 PM
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Anyone want to bet that Trump uses this to start issuing pardons?
  #120  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:28 PM
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Anyone want to bet that Trump uses this to start issuing pardons?
I think you're absolutely right that he'll want to.

Just as wiser heads prevailed this weekend and kept him from tweeting, those same wiser heads might remind him that even Barr's summary conceded that Trump isn't fully exonerated....and a slew of pardons might tip the balance on public opinion against him.

So if the bet were 'will there be discussions in which Trump argues for doing some pardons' I'd bet 'yes.' But I'm not sure I'd want to bet 'yes' that pardons actually happen this week.
  #121  
Old 03-24-2019, 06:44 PM
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Also... this report should totally put, "Russia hoax," to bed (it won't).

Barr's summary of the report says that Russian efforts to influence the election were 100% real and criminal.

Last edited by Lance Turbo; 03-24-2019 at 06:47 PM.
  #122  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:32 PM
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From the Simpsons...

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[SUPERINTENDENT CHALMERS]
A---Aurora Borealis? At this time of year! At this time of day! In this part of the country! Localized entirely within your kitchen?!?

[PRINCIPAL SKINNER]
Yes.

[SUPERINTENDENT CHALMERS]
May I see it?

[PRINCIPAL SKINNER]
No.
  #123  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:39 PM
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Also... this report should totally put, "Russia hoax," to bed (it won't).

Barr's summary of the report says that Russian efforts to influence the election were 100% real and criminal.
And that goes nicely with the observation that we have a president that, if not involved with the Russians in that issue, it was demonstrated once again that Trump is an incompetent about the "best" people he got into positions of power.

Going forward, the problem here is that Trump has not learned a thing.

https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/20...reserve/223222
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I don’t have a degree in economics, but I do know that Stephen Moore -- announced today as President Donald Trump’s pick to fill a seat on the Federal Reserve Board -- is an odious hack.

Moore, of late a CNN senior economic analyst and Heritage Foundation apparatchik, has spent his career using lofty platforms at media outlets and right-wing think tanks to promote whatever the Republican Party’s line of the day might be on economic policy issues. He is the latest in a long line of TV news pundits to catch the president’s eye and garner a nomination to a powerful federal post.

Trump’s claim that Moore is “very respected” is, as is typical for this president, a lie. Moore is widely known for being sloppy and dishonest, the kind of shill who spurs a newspaper to promise not to publish his work anymore after needing to append a lengthy correction to one of his op-eds.

Moore is also a pure partisan, with his economic opinions following from what benefits his party. When Barack Obama was in the White House, that meant calling for tight monetary policy even though that would hurt economic growth; with Trump in the White House, it has meant fervent demands for loose monetary policy, which he says would improve economic growth.

But for Trump, Moore’s biggest flaw is a feature, not a bug.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 03-24-2019 at 07:41 PM.
  #124  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:40 PM
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I've never understood the hysteria over the Russia thing anyhow.

The US and Soviets were constantly trying to influence each side. The CIA was notorious for it's dirty dealings and attempts at regime changes. Iran-Contra wasn't all that long ago. We were arming rebels for gripes sake. We sent CIA trained & armed rebels into the Bay of Pigs.

Yet, we clutch our pearls that the dirty Russians used social media platforms to influence an election?

I'm glad to learn our current President didn't collude with the Russians. That would have shaken our country to its core.

Pence will have to wait another five years for his chance to be President.

Last edited by aceplace57; 03-24-2019 at 07:43 PM.
  #125  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:49 PM
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I've never understood the hysteria over the Russia thing anyhow.

...

Yet, we clutch our pearls that the dirty Russians used social media platforms to influence an election?

...
It looks to me like you understood it just fine.
  #126  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:00 PM
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It looks to me like you understood it just fine.
Uh, that was not the only reason, so no, he and you did not understand.

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  #127  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:11 PM
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Also... this report should totally put, "Russia hoax," to bed (it won't).

Barr's summary of the report says that Russian efforts to influence the election were 100% real and criminal.
Nobody disputed that. The Russians have interfered in every American election since at least the 1950's. And Russians had already been indicted for attempting to influence the election.

The 'hoax' was the idea that Trump was involved in it.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 03-24-2019 at 08:13 PM.
  #128  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:12 PM
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That's right, but I'm already hearing the less-intellectually-gifted weekend anchors and analysts---not the openly right-wing ones, but the regular crew---report this as 'according to the report there is no evidence that Trump or those close to him committed any crimes' and the like.

The too-frequent misinterpretations of what Barr's summary says is a dream-come-true for our authoritarian-adjacent friends.

[my emphasis]
And a dream come true for the orange authoritarian himself. I just heard the blowhard in chief claim that he had been "totally exonerated" by the report, the same report that states it does not exonerate him. The one that contains evidence of obstruction of justice and that Barr himself states "did not conclude the President committed a crime, but it also 'does not exonerate him'".

The report could have deemed the Orange Peril guilty as sin and he and his cronies would still have declared that it "totally exonerates" him. Throw in subtleties like "not enough evidence to convict" and truth is hopelessly buried, certainly far beyond the reach of the mouth-breathing troglodytes who vote for him. Not only is there ample evidence of obstruction of justice, some of it was right out in plain view, like the firing of Comey and constant meddling with the Justice Department. But, as with a successful mobster, all of it has plausible deniability. Actually, Trump's constant refrain is much like that of a mobster -- "just an honest businessman, for some reason being constantly harassed by the feds. Very unfair."

Last edited by wolfpup; 03-24-2019 at 08:17 PM.
  #129  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:15 PM
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The apologists think this is the end. It is just the beginning.
  #130  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:17 PM
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Nobody disputed that. The Russians have interfered in every American election since at least the 1950's ...
Trump disputed it.
  #131  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:21 PM
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Nobody disputed that. The Russians have interfered in every American election since at least the 1950's. And Russians had already been indicted for attempting to influence the election.

The 'hoax' was the idea that Trump was involved in it.
Trump actually claimed that it was a hoax that any member of his administration was involved.

https://www.vox.com/2019/3/8/1825599...llusion-russia

Of course, Trump got to claim that about Manafort when the trial there was about tax evasion and other financial crimes, Trump was as clueless as ever.
  #132  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:23 PM
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I am disappointed at the gloating from the White House.

Today would have been an opportunity to at least try and come together, move forward on other issues facing the country.

But, that would require someone in charge with real understanding of leadership.
  #133  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:24 PM
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Nobody disputed that. The Russians have interfered in every American election since at least the 1950's. And Russians had already been indicted for attempting to influence the election.

The 'hoax' was the idea that Trump was involved in it.
Bullshit.
  #134  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:28 PM
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I am disappointed at the gloating from the White House.

Today would have been an opportunity to at least try and come together, move forward on other issues facing the country.

But, that would require someone in charge with real understanding of leadership.
It's far worse than that. The Orange Peril is actually calling for retribution -- "now it's time to 'investigate' the other side", as near as I can recall the words.
  #135  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:32 PM
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I've never understood the hysteria over the Russia thing anyhow...

Yet, we clutch our pearls that the dirty Russians used social media platforms to influence an election?
There are a bunch of homicides in the US each year. Quite a few of them are for justifiable reasons; many are not.

If someone I cared about was the victim of a homicide, I would be pissed off at the perpetrator regardless of how common homicides are.

Would you not take offense at such an aggression?
  #136  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:38 PM
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Certainly an unexpected turn of events.
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  #137  
Old 03-24-2019, 08:40 PM
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Well, for one thing, as the AG laid out in his letter:
Trump could release it just as he can declassify anything he wants to for any reason or no reason. If he's said he wants it released, even in a tweet, I'd take as as him declassifying the document and I see no reason why it shouldn't immediately be made public.
  #138  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:00 PM
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Well Putin double pinky promised that it wasn’t him. Have you taken that into account?
  #139  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:03 PM
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There are a bunch of homicides in the US each year. Quite a few of them are for justifiable reasons; many are not.



If someone I cared about was the victim of a homicide, I would be pissed off at the perpetrator regardless of how common homicides are.



Would you not take offense at such an aggression?
I was just pointing out that our own hands aren't exactly clean.

I'm sure we use social media to stir up trouble for Putin in Russia. It's not as effective since they don't have free elections like the US.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:03 PM
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I guess the bottom line is, it's national butthurt night in progressive America. I don't like saying it, but that's the reality. Like it or not, a lot of Americans are going to consider this the end of the investigation, and kicking it around in the House is just going to look like sour grapes.
  #141  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:10 PM
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I vaguely recall an early report, maybe from Comey? It's been a couple years ago. That speculated the Trump Campaign was too disorganized to pull off any collusion with Russia. It was suspected that there were a few corrupt people trying to capitalize on being associated with the campaign.

That's pretty much how the Mueller investigation played out. They caught a few bad ones, but no evidence of any organized collusion.

Last edited by aceplace57; 03-24-2019 at 09:12 PM.
  #142  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:21 PM
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A new thread to discuss other investigations of Trump, post-Mueller: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=872946
  #143  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:23 PM
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I was just pointing out that our own hands aren't exactly clean.

I'm sure we use social media to stir up trouble for Putin in Russia. It's not as effective since they don't have free elections like the US.
Twice you've mentioned social media as if it that was the entirety of the Russian effort.

You are ignoring the hacking aspect of the Russian effort as if the DNC and Podesta emails had no effect on the election.

Also there's this from Barr's summary, "...despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign." That should be concerning. Who were the people on the receiving end of these offers? Why didn't they tell anyone that America was under attack?
  #144  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:35 PM
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The hacking concerns me.

The US seems to be lagging behind China, N Korea, and Russia in cyber security research. That's very dangerous.

Last edited by aceplace57; 03-24-2019 at 09:38 PM.
  #145  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:38 PM
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Well Putin double pinky promised that it wasn’t him. Have you taken that into account?
Wow, no, I had missed that! Now that I look closer, there was this incontrovertible statement from the Orange Peril at the Helsinki conference: "Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial". Not just "strong", mind you, but also "powerful". That pretty much clinches it. Putin didn't do it.

As if that wasn't enough, the Orange Peril explicitly stated "Every time he [Putin] sees me, he says, 'I didn't do that' ". That's more than enough for me, because I know how reliable this is. I got it all the time from my dog in his puppyhood: whenever I found a book that had disappeared off the bookshelf above the bed and was lying on the floor with its cover and spine chewed off, my dog would be off on the other side of the room napping, and would look at me with a distinct expression that said "I didn't do that". To quote the Orange Wanker, "and I believe, I really believe, that when he tells me that, he means it."
  #146  
Old 03-24-2019, 09:44 PM
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I was just pointing out that our own hands aren't exactly clean.
Which is totally irrelevant.

If a police officer is shot and killed on the job, do you point out that cops kill people on a regular basis?
  #147  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:03 PM
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The hacking concerns me.

The US seems to be lagging behind China, N Korea, and Russia in cyber security research. That's very dangerous.
I think where we're lacking is in human intelligence. The Russians and Chinese are finding ways to get deeper into our political system, and I don't think we've been as successful at returning the favor. What China and Russia are doing is pushing America from favoring democracy to instead accept (even if we don't necessarily favor it) oligarchy and aristocracy, which from their point of view would make us a much less hostile foreign power. But from our point of view, we're talking about decades of socioeconomic and political disparities and turmoil. I won't say that they have completely figured out how to change our political and cultural DNA, but they're making advances in that direction, which should alarm anyone regardless of which side of the political spectrum you're on.

Last edited by asahi; 03-24-2019 at 10:04 PM.
  #148  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:05 PM
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The hacking concerns me.

The US seems to be lagging behind China, N Korea, and Russia in cyber security research. That's very dangerous.
And don't forget that Trump eliminated the office of the head of cybersecurity, has repeated refused to enact sanctions against the foreign nation which helped him get elected, against the advice of his intelligence agencies, and has refused to even investigate whether Russia is intending to influence future elections.

If he wasn't conspiring with Russia to get elected in the beginning, he's sure trying to pay them back for their help after the fact.
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  #149  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:06 PM
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Well Putin double pinky promised that it wasn’t him. Have you taken that into account?
Had Trump been the Commander in Chief at the time of the election he could have told Putin to knock it off.
  #150  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:51 PM
crucible is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,342
The Mueller summary is the only piece of intelligence gathering in the last two years that Trump accepts as fact. If he now accepts it as fact, he must rescind his confidence that Russia did not interfere in our election. Can't have it both ways.
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