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  #51  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:34 AM
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Caviar paid for with a bounced check.
  #52  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Grrr! View Post
This!



Look, I get that it's fun to bag on the retarded Orange man. But none of this is going to help Dems take back the WH in the next election.



Dems getting their panties in a twist over shit like this is the exact type of thing anyone who isn't a Dem makes fun of us for.



By all means, have your fun, but I do hope a lion's share of your focus goes towards shit that actually matters.
Frankly, I am sick of people like you telling me what is really important. Like, who made you arbiter of the political discourse? I don't remember taking a vote.

This may not bother you none, and that's fine. But somewhere out there, there is a fence-sitter out there who reflexively plays the "both sides" card. Someone who remembers when Republicans were beating poor welfare recipients over the head for not paying any taxes just a couple of years ago. Somewho who may have even agreed with them that it is a shame that people can benefit from the system more than they put in. Those people may not care about Trump the Russian Puppet or Trump the Racist Misogynist. But maybe they WILL be bothered by Trump the Hypocritical Leech. If Dems can wake these people up then they may have a decent chance of winning. If panty-twisting is what it takes to make that happen, I am all for it.
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  #53  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
Frankly, I am sick of people like you telling me what is really important. Like, who made you arbiter of the political discourse? I don't remember taking a vote.

This may not bother you none, and that's fine. But somewhere out there, there is a fence-sitter out there who reflexively plays the "both sides" card. Someone who remembers when Republicans were beating poor welfare recipients over the head for not paying any taxes just a couple of years ago. Somewho who may have even agreed with them that it is a shame that people can benefit from the system more than they put in. Those people may not care about Trump the Russian Puppet or Trump the Racist Misogynist. But maybe they WILL be bothered by Trump the Hypocritical Leech. If Dems can wake these people up then they may have a decent chance of winning. If panty-twisting is what it takes to make that happen, I am all for it.
Thank you. I was going to respond to Grrr in a similar vein, but I don't think I can improve on this.
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  #54  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:09 AM
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Frankly, I am sick of people like you telling me what is really important. Like, who made you arbiter of the political discourse? I don't remember taking a vote.
.
Of course it's important to folks like me and you. But it's going to take more folks than me and you to win the WH back. You don't need to convince me DT is an evil presence, we need to convince the independents. And this shit right here is doing the exact opposite.
  #55  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:12 AM
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Of course it's important to folks like me and you. But it's going to take more folks than me and you to win the WH back. You don't need to convince me DT is an evil presence, we need to convince the independents. And this shit right here is doing the exact opposite.
How do you know? Monstro's post was excellent and I also don't understand why some people are so insistent that we focus only on the items that they think are really, super-duper important. Besides there are cites up-thread that viewing Trump as a good businessman was very important for people voting for him. This directly counters that.
  #56  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:14 AM
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Besides there are cites up-thread that viewing Trump as a good businessman was very important for people voting for him. This directly counters that.
No it doesn't. It shows how great of a businessman he was, avoiding taxes. He even tweeted today about how great he did back then.
  #57  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:22 AM
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ump-taxes.html


I'm sure not many of us are surprised. He's paid very little in Federal taxes.
Same as GM, Apple, IBM and many other companies that seem to be losing money for tax purposes. It's called accounting.
  #58  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:22 AM
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No it doesn't. It shows how great of a businessman he was, avoiding taxes. He even tweeted today about how great he did back then.
But not everyone is stupid enough to agree with a lying buffoon.
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  #59  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:24 AM
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Same as GM, Apple, IBM and many other companies that seem to be losing money for tax purposes. It's called accounting.
Now go back and read the cite in the OP-Trump didn't "seem to lose money for tax purposes".
He was just a fucking financial failure.
  #60  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:28 AM
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But not everyone is stupid enough to agree with a lying buffoon.
60 million people are.
  #61  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:59 AM
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What is "helpful" about linking to a silly article about someone's taxes in 1985?

No one, not even the IRS cares, about tax returns from 33 years ago.

Should we take another look at Harry Truman's tax returns from 1945?
Anybody else hearing "Sabre Dance" in your head when you read this?
  #62  
Old 05-08-2019, 11:30 AM
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Frankly, I am sick of people like you telling me what is really important. Like, who made you arbiter of the political discourse? I don't remember taking a vote.

This may not bother you none, and that's fine. But somewhere out there, there is a fence-sitter out there who reflexively plays the "both sides" card. Someone who remembers when Republicans were beating poor welfare recipients over the head for not paying any taxes just a couple of years ago. Somewho who may have even agreed with them that it is a shame that people can benefit from the system more than they put in. Those people may not care about Trump the Russian Puppet or Trump the Racist Misogynist. But maybe they WILL be bothered by Trump the Hypocritical Leech. If Dems can wake these people up then they may have a decent chance of winning. If panty-twisting is what it takes to make that happen, I am all for it.
Excellent point!
  #63  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:15 PM
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No, talking about a decade of incredible losses, 1985 to 1994. Over 1 billion dollars in loss during the time he was supposedly extremely successful. Your habitually lying president is now your financially incompetent habitually lying president. He lied to you...and you eat it up as if it were caviar.
Like most Trump supporters, D’Anconia has never tasted caviar.

Some day he hopes to lose a billion dollars and cheat on his taxes, like his hero, and maybe even get some caviar...once his ship comes in! (the ship is never going to come in)
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  #64  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:52 PM
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But not everyone is stupid enough to agree with a lying buffoon.
The problem being, we don't currently have enough people who are SMART enough NOT to believe his bull shit. Those are the people we need to reach. Why do you insist on preaching to the choir?
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Old 05-08-2019, 12:56 PM
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The problem being, we don't currently have enough people who are SMART enough NOT to believe his bull shit. Those are the people we need to reach.
O.k., pretend I'm one of those people-reach out and convince me.
  #66  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:58 PM
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No it doesn't. It shows how great of a businessman he was, avoiding taxes. He even tweeted today about how great he did back then.
Let me summarize his tweet for you:

"Yes, I benefited from all kinds of tax loopholes and tax avoidance. So what, everyone does it. It's a sport. And anyway, it's all fake."

I didn't steal that cookie, and anyway it didn't taste very good.

Your claim of how great a businessman he is? That's starting to look more and more pathetic every day. Tell us again how he greatly bankrupted casinos.
  #67  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:59 PM
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60 million people are.
I will fix this for you:

"60 million people were"
  #68  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:43 PM
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O.k., pretend I'm one of those people-reach out and convince me.
Yes, I'm afraid this is an adult conversation. I don't think playing "pretend" is going to work here.
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Old 05-08-2019, 01:51 PM
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Yes, I'm afraid this is an adult conversation. I don't think playing "pretend" is going to work here.
So you've got this idea on how to reach Trump followers...and no idea at all on how to implement it?
  #70  
Old 05-08-2019, 01:59 PM
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No it doesn't. It shows how great of a businessman he was, avoiding taxes. He even tweeted today about how great he did back then.
I hate to break it to ya, but Trump was never a businessman. He was a clown with a credit card. After he lost all of Daddy's money and the banks caught on, we was just a clown. He's an actor, not a businessman.

But no problem, because there's always been a load of Americans who think his clown show is real. They turned on The Apprentice and and bought into it hook, line and sinker. Now you hear his bullshit as president, and you fall for that, too.
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Old 05-08-2019, 02:29 PM
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There's a context here that I think is missing in this discussion, which is that Trump's extreme losses led him to tap into Russian money in the 1990's, when the Soviet Union collapsed and kleptocrats were seeking to profit off of the liquidation of assets.

Once you combine this story of Trump's losses with the quote from his son, Eric, that "we have all of the money we need out of Russia", and then combine that with the fact that Deutsche Bank became Trump's go-to lender, and then realize that Deutsche Bank was assisting with the laundering of Russian money, you begin to understand how Trump originally became such a Russian stooge, why he was glad to accept their election help, and why he remains indebted to them to this day.
  #72  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:45 PM
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I hate to break it to ya, but Trump was never a businessman. He was a clown with a credit card. After he lost all of Daddy's money and the banks caught on, we was just a clown. He's an actor, not a businessman.
What? He owns businesses and he's a man. Businessman.
  #73  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:02 PM
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He totally gave 63 million the business, man.
  #74  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:10 PM
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No it doesn't. It shows how great of a businessman he was, avoiding taxes. He even tweeted today about how great he did back then.
His didn't "avoid" taxes. He "evaded" taxes. His sister retired rather than face an investigation of her taxes and she was caught up in some of the same stuff.
  #75  
Old 05-08-2019, 04:48 PM
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Stuff like this is useful before an election, because it casts doubt on whether the person will perform well if they become president.

But Trump IS President, and he has a track record. Some like it, some don't. But at this point, even if you showed that he was the worst businessman who ever lived it won't matter, because people are now going to judge him on what he did as President, not what he did before.

And as I recall, this was the argument Bill and Hillary used to fight against the investigations that were launched into Bill's pre-White House days. After all, isn't it time to 'Move On'? The thing is, Bill was right- all those Republican investigations worked against them, and Clinton was re-elected.

This stuff just cements the idea in Republican's heads that the media is in the tank for the Democrats, and that the Democrats are willing to do anything they can to hurt Trump, a sitting president. That will NOT play well with independents or even Democrats on the fence. The base loves it, but the 'base' makes up less than half the people you need to get elected and they aren't going anywhere anyway.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 05-08-2019 at 04:51 PM.
  #76  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:01 PM
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Stuff like this is useful before an election, because it casts doubt on whether the person will perform well if they become president.

But Trump IS President, and he has a track record. Some like it, some don't. But at this point, even if you showed that he was the worst businessman who ever lived it won't matter, because people are now going to judge him on what he did as President, not what he did before.

And as I recall, this was the argument Bill and Hillary used to fight against the investigations that were launched into Bill's pre-White House days. After all, isn't it time to 'Move On'? The thing is, Bill was right- all those Republican investigations worked against them, and Clinton was re-elected.

This stuff just cements the idea in Republican's heads that the media is in the tank for the Democrats, and that the Democrats are willing to do anything they can to hurt Trump, a sitting president. That will NOT play well with independents or even Democrats on the fence. The base loves it, but the 'base' makes up less than half the people you need to get elected and they aren't going anywhere anyway.
And this cements the idea in Democrats' heads that Republicans can't be trusted to perceive reality in any meaningful way.

Trump's trade wars are fucking up certain sectors of the economy. His "negotiations" with our trade partners and our allies are fucking up a lot of our long-term prospects for global hegemony. His management style, sewing chaos, rewarding only loyalty, and leaving dozens or hundreds of key positions vacant, is fucking up the future effectiveness of our own executive branch. His inability to negotiate with congress, including those in his own party, is fucking up any chance we've had of making progress on pretty much anything during his term.

If you look at everything going on in Trump's circle and think, "Well, it's unconventional, but I've been wanting our country run like a business for a long time, and maybe this is just what it looks like when a successful businessman/outsider shakes things up," then it ABSOLUTELY matters now whether or not he was actually a successful businessman. Because the alternative is this -- Trump was never a successful businessman and the stuff that looks like chaos in the White House is a sure sign that he's fucking up the country just like he fucked up his own affairs. And if he's fucking up the country, shouldn't we make him stop doing that ASAP? Especially if we have a good reason to, like that he's a criminal?

Last edited by steronz; 05-08-2019 at 05:02 PM.
  #77  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:17 PM
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...Trump's trade wars are fucking up certain sectors of the economy. His "negotiations" with our trade partners and our allies are fucking up a lot of our long-term prospects for global hegemony. His management style, sewing chaos, rewarding only loyalty, and leaving dozens or hundreds of key positions vacant, is fucking up the future effectiveness of our own executive branch. His inability to negotiate with congress, including those in his own party, is fucking up any chance we've had of making progress on pretty much anything during his term.

...Trump was never a successful businessman and the stuff that looks like chaos in the White House is a sure sign that he's fucking up the country just like he fucked up his own affairs. And if he's fucking up the country, shouldn't we make him stop doing that ASAP? Especially if we have a good reason to, like that he's a criminal?
Here's what Trump's fans are never going to be able to spin:

Trump is an incompetent. He's inept. He's a bungler. He's pathetic.

Every excuse they come up with fails. Today the rationalization is 'oh, he's smart because he doesn't pay taxes'---really? Couldn't he have 'not paid taxes' if he'd actually MADE money instead of losing it???
  #78  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:19 PM
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Trump is like Schrodinger's businessman. He is both successful and unsuccessful, and BOTH of these states of being make him an excellent choice for president in some people's minds.
  #79  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:23 PM
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Trump is like Schrodinger's businessman. He is both successful and unsuccessful, and BOTH of these states of being make him an excellent choice for president in some people's minds.
I wonder if we'll be seeing a related uptick in diagnosed mental disorders in the next few years. All this double-think determination to ignore reality has to be doing a number on the stability of those cognitive gymnasts.
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Old 05-08-2019, 05:41 PM
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The Fox and Friends spin this morning was “He lost a billion dollars? Golly, he’s done so MUCH in his life!”
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  #81  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:59 PM
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What is "helpful" about linking to a silly article about someone's taxes in 1985?

No one, not even the IRS cares, about tax returns from 33 years ago.

Should we take another look at Harry Truman's tax returns from 1945?
I didn't say that linking was helpful. I said I was trying to be helpful by answering a question someone asked. As for no one caring, on that we agree. If by "no one", you mean you.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:03 PM
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Trump is an epic, blockbuster, legendary failure. World's worst businessman.
We're talking about somebody who repeatedly went broke running a casino, which is the business equivalent of getting lost inside a phone booth.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:09 PM
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We're talking about somebody who repeatedly went broke running a casino, which is the business equivalent of getting lost inside a phone booth.
Yes.

It's long been my assumption that when someone says 'I voted for Trump because he's such a great businessman,' either they are completely checked out and know nothing whatsoever about Trump's record, or they are actually saying 'I voted for Trump because he elevates my race above other races and I really love that but can't admit it in public so I'll trot out the Great Businessman rationalization.'
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:10 PM
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So you're saying The Big Loser couldn't run a business to save his life, but he conned enough people to think he could that he became a success? I don't see that pig flying with anyone outside of his cult.
I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but I simply mean that if a business success is one who makes money in business, then Trump qualifies/qualified due to his licensing deals. I'm not saying it's admirable by any means, when it's done based on deception.

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Old 05-08-2019, 06:14 PM
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He buys some land for about 10 million, then donates it back to the State for something like 200 million of value because he 'could have developed it' and realized that much from it, and gets a tax deduction for the full donation and his name on that 'park land' which is more like a ghost town forever ablazened on a popular commuting route to NYC.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:14 PM
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Trump not paying taxes goes along with his long habit of not paying contractors who do work for him.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:16 PM
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And as I recall, this was the argument Bill and Hillary used to fight against the investigations that were launched into Bill's pre-White House days. After all, isn't it time to 'Move On'? The thing is, Bill was right- all those Republican investigations worked against them, and Clinton was re-elected.
The difference is that the investigations into Clinton's pre-Presidential conduct turned up jack squat*, while the investigations into Trump's pre-Presidential conduct are turning up enough skeletons to remake Jason and the Argonauts.

*He did have some trouble over a misdeed committed while he was President, namely, lying under oath about l'affiare Lewinsky
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:21 PM
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Stuff like this is useful before an election, because it casts doubt on whether the person will perform well if they become president.

But Trump IS President, and he has a track record. Some like it, some don't. But at this point, even if you showed that he was the worst businessman who ever lived it won't matter, because people are now going to judge him on what he did as President, not what he did before.

And as I recall, this was the argument Bill and Hillary used to fight against the investigations that were launched into Bill's pre-White House days. After all, isn't it time to 'Move On'? The thing is, Bill was right- all those Republican investigations worked against them, and Clinton was re-elected.

This stuff just cements the idea in Republican's heads that the media is in the tank for the Democrats, and that the Democrats are willing to do anything they can to hurt Trump, a sitting president. That will NOT play well with independents or even Democrats on the fence. The base loves it, but the 'base' makes up less than half the people you need to get elected and they aren't going anywhere anyway.
What is "this stuff"? The media trying to find stuff out about Trump? Democrats in Congress exercising their oversight powers and actually trying to discover (and prevent!) wrongdoing by the executive branch? Those seem like pretty normal and reasonable things, which aren't going to (and shouldn't) stop.
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:27 PM
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He buys some land for about 10 million, then donates it back to the State for something like 200 million ...
For varying definitions of "donate".
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:00 PM
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"Yes, I benefited from all kinds of tax loopholes and tax avoidance. So what, everyone does it. It's a sport. And anyway, it's all fake."
Now you're getting it! That shows how great he is. Not sure why you are singling him out when everyone does it. At least he's trying to HELP America, not like Obama.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:18 PM
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I remember the incident quite well ...
Of course, that's why you asked for a cite.

Why, I, too, will ask for a cite about things I remember quite well.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:56 PM
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So you've got this idea on how to reach Trump followers...and no idea at all on how to implement it?
I never claimed we can reach Trump followers. They can't be reached. However, I think focusing on policy, rather than Trump's inept business practices is a more effective way to persuade the independents to vote blue.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but I simply mean that if a business success is one who makes money in business, then Trump qualifies/qualified due to his licensing deals. I'm not saying it's admirable by any means, when it's done based on deception.
Trump is a businessman like a shoplifter is an exporter of goods.
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:33 PM
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And in 1994, and for the years in between. Somehow D'Anconia overlooked that. I'm sure he was just tired.

But yeah, let's see something more recent, such as the six years of returns requested by the Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. I mean, surely those will show once and for all how Trump has spectacularly reversed his previous losses, right?
According to my sources (good sources, reliable sources!) he did indeed reverse his previous losses by developing (i.e.: having some lawyer develop for him) a new franchise that tapped into the market for laundering Russian dirty money.
Most people think he has a reason for not disclosing his tax returns. They are wrong: he has at least two. The first one is because he was such a bad businessman. The second is because he suddenly became a successful one.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Of course, that's why you asked for a cite.

Why, I, too, will ask for a cite about things I remember quite well.
You are smarter than that. I clearly requested a cite for Mittens referring to people as evil and lazy.
  #96  
Old 05-09-2019, 04:10 PM
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Perhaps the most intriguing part of the NYT story is that mysterious $52.9 million in what's claimed to be interest income:

Quote:
The spike in interest income is notable because Trump reported receiving only a fraction of that interest income in previous years. By contrast, he reported $11.8 million in interest income in 1988. In 1987, Trump reported an even smaller $5.5 million, and in 1986, only $460,566, the Times said.

...One thing appears clear, Welch said: “it’s unlikely he had a big outside investment” like bonds, because his interest income before 1989 was so much lower.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-income-taxes

The thing is, what's the source? If he made a huge loan to someone and the $52.9 million is interest that someone was paying on the loan, there's be an indication of that in the tax transcripts. And Trump isn't known for making huge loans. He's known for taking out huge loans.

So the question remains: what's the source of that big chunk of income?
  #97  
Old 05-09-2019, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lubricious Integument View Post
You are smarter than that. I clearly requested a cite for Mittens referring to people as evil and lazy.
If I misunderstood, I apologize.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 05-09-2019 at 06:24 PM.
  #98  
Old 05-09-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
Trump is a businessman like a shoplifter is an exporter of goods.
Uh, okay. Why are you telling me this?
  #99  
Old 05-09-2019, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lubricious Integument View Post
You are smarter than that. I clearly requested a cite for Mittens referring to people as evil and lazy.
Pedantic here.

Your request stems from a statement which typifies Romney's comments as referring to people who don't pay taxes as evil and lazy, but it did not quote him doing so.

Given that his actual words describe these people as those "who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to healthcare, to food, to housing, to you-name-it," that "These are people who pay no income tax." and that "I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives", I think it's a fair description of his view of those people (e.g. by saying that they don't take personal responsibility or care for their lives, he has characterized them as plainly lazy, and the clear implication is that it is bad (or, if you want, 'evil') to be so lazy).

You may reasonably disagree, but, again, it was not a quote that you were challenging, but a description.

Last edited by Moriarty; 05-09-2019 at 07:22 PM.
  #100  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
Pedantic here.
Absolutely. He described people who don't take personal responsibility, calling them "takers," calling them unnecessarily dependent on government (i.e. government paid for by the "makers"), people who have a sense of entitlement. It's easy to connect the dots to lazy. Evil might be a shade hyperbolic but Mitt's words were definitely not saying that those people were virtuous or honorable or any other antonyms of evil, and were definitely pejoratively stated.
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