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Old 05-07-2019, 08:05 PM
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None of this is going to matter


'Cause if you remember, after Nixon resigned the Presidency Republicans regained control of the W.H. approximately 6 years later and didn't give up control of it again for 12 years after that. Even though, in my opinion, Republicans don't deserve to get another term in the W.H. in what time I have left on this earth, I don't think this country has it in it to have one party (PRI) control everything in a manner similar to how Mťxico once did. Unfortunately. 'Cause Republicans are going down a VERY dangerous path in covering for this guy even if THEY don't understand that in the least.
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Old 05-07-2019, 11:10 PM
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Recent NYMag Intelligencer article noted that a Trump loss in 2020 might not necessarily work out well for Democrats: The economy is poised for a big tumble after 2020 (which would be blamed on the Democratic president,) Senate still likely to stay red (and a Democratic president would only help it get redder yet in 2022) and Ginsburg and Breyer aren't likely to be able to die or retire and still be replaced by liberal justices if there's a blue prez but red Senate.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:55 AM
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Recent NYMag Intelligencer article noted that a Trump loss in 2020 might not necessarily work out well for Democrats: The economy is poised for a big tumble after 2020 (which would be blamed on the Democratic president,) Senate still likely to stay red (and a Democratic president would only help it get redder yet in 2022) and Ginsburg and Breyer aren't likely to be able to die or retire and still be replaced by liberal justices if there's a blue prez but red Senate.
On the other hand Trump wouldn't be president which is a much bigger issue than any of that.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:03 AM
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On the other hand Trump wouldn't be president which is a much bigger issue than any of that.
Oh, he'll be out of the "crappy" W.H. eventually, sure. But my point is: look at the trend for Republican presidents over the last couple of decades and decide what kind of person they'll run for Prez post-Drumpf. To me, it's NOT a promising trend, at all.
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Old 05-08-2019, 11:13 AM
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Recent NYMag Intelligencer article noted that a Trump loss in 2020 might not necessarily work out well for Democrats: The economy is poised for a big tumble after 2020 (which would be blamed on the Democratic president,) Senate still likely to stay red (and a Democratic president would only help it get redder yet in 2022) and Ginsburg and Breyer aren't likely to be able to die or retire and still be replaced by liberal justices if there's a blue prez but red Senate.
This has been my primary concern. Voters just don't get that the current economy is not the creation of the current president. Trump has created policies that will seriously hurt our economy in the long run but, like he said, he doesn't care because he won't be around. That is a sickening statement. Can you imagine if a Democrat gets elected in 2020, the economy tanks in 2021, and they vote Trump the business genius savior back into office in 2024?
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Old 05-08-2019, 04:34 PM
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This has been my primary concern. Voters just don't get that the current economy is not the creation of the current president. Trump has created policies that will seriously hurt our economy in the long run but, like he said, he doesn't care because he won't be around. That is a sickening statement. Can you imagine if a Democrat gets elected in 2020, the economy tanks in 2021, and they vote Trump the business genius savior back into office in 2024?
We all know there will be a downturn or recession eventually, because there always is. For the good of the nation and the world, the sooner it comes the better. Our luck it starts in January 2021.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:45 PM
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I would dispute that the Senate is likely to stay red. There are a lot or R's up in 2020.
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:21 PM
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I would dispute that the Senate is likely to stay red. There are a lot or R's up in 2020.
In 2008 democrats won 8 senate seats, in 2014 the GOP won 9 seats. So it sounds like a swing cycle in the senate.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:45 PM
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'Cause if you remember, after Nixon resigned the Presidency Republicans regained control of the W.H. approximately 6 years later and didn't give up control of it again for 12 years after that.
Yeah, the Republicans were definitely a majority after the 60s, helped in large part because the entire south was shifting parties. Carter only won in 1976 because of Nixon, and Ford's pardon of him didn't help someone who wasn't considered a "real" president.

None of that is relevant today. The demographics of the country are utterly different and are rapidly moving away from the Republicans. The fact that the country has been nearly evenly split for so long is an anomaly and is going to end.

Trump is also an anomaly. Where in the Republican party is there a national figure remotely comparable to him? That's why I boggle at the people who think Pence would be a problem if Trump got impeached. Is there anybody in the party less Trumpish and less a right-wing rallying point? Who else is there? The 16 nothings he defeated in the primaries? You think Alex Jones is going to get the nomination?

The reason that the Republican establishment fell to its knees kissing Trump's ass is that they see no future at all without him. He leaves behind a black void. They all understand that viscerally. Without him all is nothingness - so they will back him until the last rat sinks with the ship.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:48 PM
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None of this is going to matter

What a succinct summation of my life.
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Old 05-08-2019, 11:07 PM
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The reason that the Republican establishment fell to its knees kissing Trump's ass is that they see no future at all without him. He leaves behind a black void. They all understand that viscerally. Without him all is nothingness - so they will back him until the last rat sinks with the ship.
I SOOOOOOOO hope you're right. But I've heard people [such as my brother-in-law, who sure seemed to be pretty strongly on the side of the "R"s when he lived in Alaska] predict the utter demise of the Republican Party before...
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Old 05-08-2019, 11:54 PM
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The American political system is not a sports league. When you lose an election, you don't just shrug it off and say your team will win next time. The loss of the election is followed by a political party taking power and enacting its agenda into law. And those laws will still exist after the next election.

Even if the Democrats win the House, the Senate, and the Presidency in 2020, we don't become a Democratic country overnight. The Democrats are going to have to spend years undoing all the damage the Republicans have been doing since 2016. That means that it'll be sometime around 2024 before we get back to where we were in 2016 - and only then can we begin moving forward again.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:01 AM
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To keep Trump's base, repubs are gonna have to find someone worse. Probably someone from the muck of the internet. An Alex Jones type who still has a Twitter account. Being banned from the current social media giants may not even matter by then. Anyone can set up a social media platform for a special purpose.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:44 AM
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None of this is going to matter

What a succinct summation of my life.
Of anyone's life, actually.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:08 AM
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I don't know the exact numbers, but it sounds like the Senate will be very close. The D's need to pull out all the stops to get 50 seats. Sherrod Brown must keep his seat. @ Beto - Please focus on another Senate run.

With 50 Senators and Booker or Harris sitting at the dais to break ties, I hope American politics can get back on track. Start by rescinding the filibuster rule. Take no prisoners.

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On the other hand Trump wouldn't be president which is a much bigger issue than any of that.
Trump has already delivered important security secrets to his best pal, Vladimir Putin ó that blood has already flowed under the bridge. Sure, Trump is likely to start a war with Iran or North Korea, but would President Pence be much better?

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We all know there will be a downturn or recession eventually, because there always is. For the good of the nation and the world, the sooner it comes the better. Our luck it starts in January 2021.
The best hope for America is a severe economic crisis in Spring or Summer 2020. (Unfortunately, that seems unlikely; an ordinary stock market plunge won't be enough. If some of the multibillionaires were willing to sacrifice a huge sum, could they pull it off? What if a few top countries ó Germany, China etc. ó act to embargo us or otherwise cause the U.S. to panic?)
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:22 AM
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Yeah, the Republicans were definitely a majority after the 60s, helped in large part because the entire south was shifting parties. Carter only won in 1976 because of Nixon, and Ford's pardon of him didn't help someone who wasn't considered a "real" president.

None of that is relevant today. The demographics of the country are utterly different and are rapidly moving away from the Republicans. The fact that the country has been nearly evenly split for so long is an anomaly and is going to end.

Trump is also an anomaly. Where in the Republican party is there a national figure remotely comparable to him? That's why I boggle at the people who think Pence would be a problem if Trump got impeached. Is there anybody in the party less Trumpish and less a right-wing rallying point? Who else is there? The 16 nothings he defeated in the primaries? You think Alex Jones is going to get the nomination?

The reason that the Republican establishment fell to its knees kissing Trump's ass is that they see no future at all without him. He leaves behind a black void. They all understand that viscerally. Without him all is nothingness - so they will back him until the last rat sinks with the ship.
This is true if the United States remains democratic, but it might not.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:23 AM
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Yeah, the Republicans were definitely a majority after the 60s, helped in large part because the entire south was shifting parties. Carter only won in 1976 because of Nixon, and Ford's pardon of him didn't help someone who wasn't considered a "real" president.
A good friend of mine (VERY sharp. He's an engineer at Boeing these days) texted me the other day that the reason Repubes took the W.H. so soon after Nixon is probably because people didn't think that what he did was a Republican problem so much as it was a Nixon problem. I think he probably has a point. I sure wouldn't say that now, though (and I don't think feels that way about the current situation, either)!
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:33 AM
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The American political system is not a sports league. When you lose an election, you don't just shrug it off and say your team will win next time. The loss of the election is followed by a political party taking power and enacting its agenda into law. And those laws will still exist after the next election.

Even if the Democrats win the House, the Senate, and the Presidency in 2020, we don't become a Democratic country overnight. The Democrats are going to have to spend years undoing all the damage the Republicans have been doing since 2016. That means that it'll be sometime around 2024 before we get back to where we were in 2016 - and only then can we begin moving forward again.
{Sigh} Unfortunately, I feel that you're 100% spot on with this.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:08 AM
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I kind of have the suspicion that a LOT of the GOP rank-and-file, especially some of the older, non Tea Party types, feel like they have the tiger by the tail and can't let go.

I think initially, the temptation to have a GOP controlled Congress and President was too tempting for them NOT to support Trump, but then once he turned out to be such a dumpster fire, they were in too deep, and realized that if they turned on him, they'd alienate the more hardcore base who like Trump, and potentially the less hardcore Republicans, who are indifferent to him, while simultaneously realizing that they'd already lost the more moderate and centrist voters by supporting him in the first place.

I don't see them turning on him, unless he does something that actually challenges the GOP wing of Congress directly, with the intent of lessening or removing their power.

I also think that if the Democrats were to win it all in 2020, they'd be absolutely stupid to make undoing Trump's policies their priority. Better to move forward where they can, and mitigate where they can't. But making a point of "undoing" Trump's presidency looks every bit as petty and partisan as the nonsense the GOP is engaging in now.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:24 AM
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I don't know the exact numbers, but it sounds like the Senate will be very close. The D's need to pull out all the stops to get 50 seats. Sherrod Brown must keep his seat. @ Beto - Please focus on another Senate run.

With 50 Senators and Booker or Harris sitting at the dais to break ties, I hope American politics can get back on track. Start by rescinding the filibuster rule. Take no prisoners.



Trump has already delivered important security secrets to his best pal, Vladimir Putin ó that blood has already flowed under the bridge. Sure, Trump is likely to start a war with Iran or North Korea, but would President Pence be much better?



The best hope for America is a severe economic crisis in Spring or Summer 2020. (Unfortunately, that seems unlikely; an ordinary stock market plunge won't be enough. If some of the multibillionaires were willing to sacrifice a huge sum, could they pull it off? What if a few top countries ó Germany, China etc. ó act to embargo us or otherwise cause the U.S. to panic?)
You keep hoping for an economic crash. Iím not sure if you get your way that youíll be pleased with the effects. I remember people on this board wishing for Trump to be the Republican candidate. Howíd that wish work out?
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:15 AM
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I kind of have the suspicion that a LOT of the GOP rank-and-file, especially some of the older, non Tea Party types, feel like they have the tiger by the tail and can't let go.

I think initially, the temptation to have a GOP controlled Congress and President was too tempting for them NOT to support Trump, but then once he turned out to be such a dumpster fire, they were in too deep, and realized that if they turned on him, they'd alienate the more hardcore base who like Trump, and potentially the less hardcore Republicans, who are indifferent to him, while simultaneously realizing that they'd already lost the more moderate and centrist voters by supporting him in the first place.
The republican party ran on oligarchy, racist, misogyny, and religious extremism; the difference between some of the quieter republicans is that they may not necessarily be that racist, misogynistic, and extremist - maybe they're just in it for the tax cuts. The problem is that the manner in which the right wing propaganda machine has polarized the electorate over the past 20 years has meant that it is nearly impossible for Republicans to get elected without courting bigots, misogynists, and theocrats.

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I don't see them turning on him, unless he does something that actually challenges the GOP wing of Congress directly, with the intent of lessening or removing their power.
He won't do that because everything at this point is about self-preservation. Trump needs to survive legal jeopardy, which means that he must completely destroy legal and political conventions in order to preserve himself. In return, he understands that white nationalists and religious extremists have rare access to the levers of political power, and they don't want to waste this opportunity. They're in it together. If they go down, they go down together. There is nothing that moderate or centrist republicans can do about it, either. They invited these monsters into their house, and now they're becoming the landlords. Any republican who stands in their way is finished - ask Jeff Flake and Bob Corker. Hell they voted with Trump and the party 90-95% of the time and it still didn't matter. The message is clear: cross them, and out come the swords.

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I also think that if the Democrats were to win it all in 2020, they'd be absolutely stupid to make undoing Trump's policies their priority. Better to move forward where they can, and mitigate where they can't. But making a point of "undoing" Trump's presidency looks every bit as petty and partisan as the nonsense the GOP is engaging in now.
I'll have to disagree. The people would presumably be voting to reverse course on a lot of things that Trump has done. They would presumably want to raise taxes on the rich. They would presumably want to strengthen Obamacare and maybe even expand it. They would want a government that protects the environment and normalizes relations with our former allies. I agree that they shouldn't tap dance on his political grave and do an end zone celebration, but it seems to me doing absolutely nothing to reverse the setbacks of the Trump years would be the absolute worst thing Democrats could do.
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:38 AM
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You keep hoping for an economic crash. Iím not sure if you get your way that youíll be pleased with the effects. I remember people on this board wishing for Trump to be the Republican candidate. Howíd that wish work out?
What's your point? As long as the Dow-Jones keeps going up, Trump is The Man?
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:47 AM
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What's your point? As long as the Dow-Jones keeps going up, Trump is The Man?
Nope. My point is be careful what you wish for. The universe seems to have a dark sense of humor.

In the long term, Trump will be a good thing if it gives those who worship the state and think that the government is intrinsically benevolent some much needed cynicism about the dangers of concentrating power and dishonest/contorted interpretations of the Constitution.

Perhaps we can get an expanded House of Representatives? Who knows. The point being is as nutty as Trump is things could be orders of magnitude worse. And heíll be gone soon enough.

That said, the anti-globalization/populist sentiment isnít going anywhere anytime soon.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:00 AM
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I also think that if the Democrats were to win it all in 2020, they'd be absolutely stupid to make undoing Trump's policies their priority. Better to move forward where they can, and mitigate where they can't. But making a point of "undoing" Trump's presidency looks every bit as petty and partisan as the nonsense the GOP is engaging in now.
Maybe we're talking past each other. When I talk about undoing the damage, I'm talking about moving forward and mitigating. The alternative is to just keep all of the policies that the Republicans have enacted since 2016 in place.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:03 AM
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In the long term, Trump will be a good thing if it gives those who worship the state and think that the government is intrinsically benevolent some much needed cynicism about the dangers of concentrating power and dishonest/contorted interpretations of the Constitution.
Bullshit. Every time conservatives do things that are immoral and criminal, they blame politics.

Politics is not the problem. Conservatives are the problem.

All we need to do to fix our political system is get the Republicans out of it.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:05 AM
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Bullshit. Every time conservatives do things that are immoral and criminal, they blame politics.

Politics is not the problem. Conservatives are the problem.

All we need to do to fix our political system is get the Republicans out of it.
C’mon now. Ranting isn’t going to advance your cause.

Anyways, these issues were known even in the time of the Federalists.

“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."--Alexander Hamilton on human nature and government. From the series Great Ideas of Western Man.

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Old 05-09-2019, 11:08 AM
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C’mon now. Ranting isn’t going to advance your cause.
"Both-sides"-ism isn't going to help anyone's causes but the worst of the worst among those in power. Right now, by far the biggest threat to decency, stability, and good government are the Republican cheerleaders of Trump. It's reasonable to recognize and say this. There are also systemic issues which need fixing, but in terms of the politicians, one side is doing mostly the wrong thing, and the other side is trying to stop them from doing mostly the wrong things.

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Old 05-09-2019, 11:16 AM
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"Both-sides"-ism isn't going to help anyone's causes but the worst of the worst among those in power. Right now, by far the biggest threat to decency, stability, and good government are the Republican cheerleaders of Trump. It's reasonable to recognize and say this.
Algorithmically appealing to an irrelevant cliche isnít helpful either. Who said anything about both sides?

You are missing the point by a large margin. It isnít about democrats or republicans. Itís about misplaced faith in the political class when one feels the political class is under oneís control. Real life isnít so neat. Thatís why we have checks and balances and a federal system. Hopefully, the new found knowledge of this persists.

Furthermore, you folks really need to stop obsessing about Trump. Trump is nothing more than a symptom. And you folks are willfully blind as to what he is a symptom of. Why the future unintended consequences of globalization and mass migration were dismissed and ignored is understandable. Now that the future is present it isnít understandable.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:16 AM
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Maybe we're talking past each other. When I talk about undoing the damage, I'm talking about moving forward and mitigating. The alternative is to just keep all of the policies that the Republicans have enacted since 2016 in place.
I think so- I had originally read it like you were suggesting some kind of deliberate, public, policy-by-policy dismantling of Trump's presidency, solely for the sake of undoing everything he'd done. Kind of like a political damnatio memoriae of some sort.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:46 AM
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Algorithmically appealing to an irrelevant cliche isnít helpful either. Who said anything about both sides?

You are missing the point by a large margin. It isnít about democrats or republicans. Itís about misplaced faith in the political class when one feels the political class is under oneís control. Real life isnít so neat. Thatís why we have checks and balances and a federal system. Hopefully, the new found knowledge of this persists.

Furthermore, you folks really need to stop obsessing about Trump. Trump is nothing more than a symptom. And you folks are willfully blind as to what he is a symptom of. Why the future unintended consequences of globalization and mass migration were dismissed and ignored is understandable. Now that the future is present it isnít understandable.
Trumpism is about culture and politics, not economics. This has been shown again and again. Trump is definitely a symptom, but that doesn't excuse the really, really terrible things the Republican party has been advocating and rationalizing again and again. Any possible chance at making things better starts from getting rid of Trump and his enablers. Then we might be able to begin to address the systemic issues.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:05 PM
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Even if the Dems win in 2020 and hold the house, it is relatively unlikely that they can capture the senate. And without that they can do nothing. Even with it, they can do nothing since the Reps need only 41 votes to block anything. The only real advantage to capturing the senate is that that will allow poor RBG to retire. But even so, they will not be able to capture the court. And if they don't win the senate, they will not get to make any court appointments. So I am totally pessimistic about all this.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:27 PM
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I also think that if the Democrats were to win it all in 2020, they'd be absolutely stupid to make undoing Trump's policies their priority. Better to move forward where they can, and mitigate where they can't. But making a point of "undoing" Trump's presidency looks every bit as petty and partisan as the nonsense the GOP is engaging in now.
Considering what's actually been done by this administration, there is no way to avoid 'undoing Trump's policies.'
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:35 PM
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Furthermore, you folks really need to stop obsessing about Trump. Trump is nothing more than a symptom. And you folks are willfully blind as to what he is a symptom of. Why the future unintended consequences of globalization and mass migration were dismissed and ignored is understandable. Now that the future is present it isnít understandable.
'Furthermore, you need to stop obsessing about the loss of motion in your right arm. That loss of motion is nothing more than a symptom. And you are willfully blind to what it is a symptom of. Why the future consequences of your diet were dismissed & ignored is understandable. Now that the future is present it isn't understandable.'

So what? Shut up and die?

The man is a criminal and you're trying to make excuses for his base.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:11 PM
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Even if the Dems win in 2020 and hold the house, it is relatively unlikely that they can capture the senate. And without that they can do nothing. Even with it, they can do nothing since the Reps need only 41 votes to block anything. The only real advantage to capturing the senate is that that will allow poor RBG to retire. But even so, they will not be able to capture the court. And if they don't win the senate, they will not get to make any court appointments. So I am totally pessimistic about all this.
If the Democrats win the Presidency and get 50 seats in the Senate they will end the filibuster. They have to. Not even the Dems could be so stupid not to do so.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:47 PM
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'Furthermore, you need to stop obsessing about the loss of motion in your right arm. That loss of motion is nothing more than a symptom. And you are willfully blind to what it is a symptom of. Why the future consequences of your diet were dismissed & ignored is understandable. Now that the future is present it isn't understandable.'

So what? Shut up and die?

The man is a criminal and you're trying to make excuses for his base.
So what? If you want to gain power you should understand where itís derived. You should also make an attempt at understanding why people behave a certain way instead of accepting misleading but comforting oversimplifications.
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Old 05-10-2019, 02:26 AM
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... Even with it, they can do nothing since the Reps need only 41 votes to block anything....
It only takes 50 Senators and the V.P. to revise Senate rules. I'll b disappointed if there are 50 D Senators but some lose their nerve and refuse to act. For the foreseeable future filibuster should exist only in the old Jimmy Stewart movie.

There's nothing to be gained by preserving the filibuster "traditions" which are hardly traditional anyway ó they've been egregiously desecrated in recent decades. Recall that the R's used cheating and chicanery in their effort to repeal Obamacare. They needed only 50 votes ó not 60 ó to succeed, and were defeated only when the late John McCain stood up and showed that, unlike 49 other Republican Senators, he was still a human being.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:49 AM
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So what? If you want to gain power you should understand where itís derived. You should also make an attempt at understanding why people behave a certain way instead of accepting misleading but comforting oversimplifications.
This seems to sum up today's "brand" of conservatism nicely.
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Old 05-10-2019, 08:00 AM
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Trump has already delivered important security secrets to his best pal, Vladimir Putin — that blood has already flowed under the bridge. Sure, Trump is likely to start a war with Iran or North Korea,

Yes starting wars with NK, Iran, and Venezuela are all part of Putin’s plan. The incoherence is so succinct.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-10-2019 at 08:01 AM.
  #39  
Old 05-10-2019, 08:08 AM
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Yes starting wars with NK, Iran, and Venezuela are all part of Putin’s plan. The incoherence is so succinct.
Trump's the incoherent, irrational one. Not that I'm at all convinced that Putin wouldn't be happy standing by and watching more really dumb and damaging wars by the US.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-10-2019 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 05-10-2019, 09:45 AM
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Considering what's actually been done by this administration, there is no way to avoid 'undoing Trump's policies.'
I didn't say avoid, just that the Democratic party wouldn't do well to make a deliberate point of systematically dismantling everything he did, like a political damnatio memoriae.

That looks petty and vindictive, as well as setting a bad precedent.

The party could easily propose new legislating aligned with their platform and values and enact that as a way to undo a lot of his more harmful policies without looking particularly vindictive.
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:33 AM
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Bullshit. Every time conservatives do things that are immoral and criminal, they blame politics.

Politics is not the problem. Conservatives are the problem.

All we need to do to fix our political system is get the Republicans out of it.
How do you explain the problems in California where Conservatives are almost extinct? Shouldn't there be utopias where where liberals dominate if what you wrote is true?
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Old 05-10-2019, 11:17 AM
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How do you explain the problems in California where Conservatives are almost extinct? Shouldn't there be utopias where where liberals dominate if what you wrote is true?
What's your basis?
Look at almost any list ranking the U.S. states, whether by income, or quality of health care and the "Blue" states will be at the top. Here are the top 12 states by GDP per capita: Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, Alaska, Delaware, North Dakota, Wyoming, California, New Jersey, Washington. Maryland, Illinois. Except for three very tiny red states, these are blue states every one.

The bottom six on the same list are Mississippi, Idaho, West Virginia, Arkansas, South Carolina, Alabama. Shit-hole red states every one.
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Old 05-10-2019, 12:20 PM
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"Basis" suggests a rationally deduced outlook. LAZombie is just being intentionally disingenuous and inflammatory with no real interest in advancing a discussion.
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Old 05-10-2019, 01:25 PM
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Bullshit. Every time conservatives do things that are immoral and criminal, they blame politics.

Politics is not the problem. Conservatives are the problem.

All we need to do to fix our political system is get the Republicans out of it.
Conservatives? Where?

Funny, all I see are radicals, of a reactionary bent.

You're right about getting rid of the Pubbies, though.
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Old 05-10-2019, 01:58 PM
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Conservatives? Where?

Funny, all I see are radicals, of a reactionary bent.

You're right about getting rid of the Pubbies, though.
I agree with you. And then I think, damn, now we're just as bad as they are.
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Old 05-10-2019, 02:45 PM
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What's your basis?
Look at almost any list ranking the U.S. states, whether by income, or quality of health care and the "Blue" states will be at the top. Here are the top 12 states by GDP per capita: Massachusetts, New York, Connecticut, Alaska, Delaware, North Dakota, Wyoming, California, New Jersey, Washington. Maryland, Illinois. Except for three very tiny red states, these are blue states every one.

The bottom six on the same list are Mississippi, Idaho, West Virginia, Arkansas, South Carolina, Alabama. Shit-hole red states every one.
You didn't answer the question.

Why isn't California a utopian society given its liberal policies? I didn't ask whether its better than a Red state. If you are so confident in liberal ideology, why aren't there more pronounced results?
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Old 05-10-2019, 03:06 PM
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You didn't answer the question.

Why isn't California a utopian society given its liberal policies? I didn't ask whether its better than a Red state. If you are so confident in liberal ideology, why aren't there more pronounced results?
No location with humans will ever be a utopia because we are imperfect and therefore whatever society we create will be imperfect.

Why don't you tell us all about these horrible problems in California, and what the Republican plans are to fix them?

Also, can you give us an example of a Republican utopia? There are quite a few solid red places in this country where the Republicans have all of the power. Surely they've been able to create a conservatopia somewhere?
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  #48  
Old 05-10-2019, 04:36 PM
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No location with humans will ever be a utopia because we are imperfect and therefore whatever society we create will be imperfect.

Why don't you tell us all about these horrible problems in California, and what the Republican plans are to fix them?

Also, can you give us an example of a Republican utopia? There are quite a few solid red places in this country where the Republicans have all of the power. Surely they've been able to create a conservatopia somewhere?
You realize that conservative principles of individual freedoms and free enterprise are what enables the so-called liberal states to prosper. Let them clamp down on freedom of expression, open their borders fully, and go full socialist and see how wealthy they remain.

Last edited by octopus; 05-10-2019 at 04:36 PM.
  #49  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:40 PM
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You realize that conservative principles of individual freedoms and free enterprise are what enables the so-called liberal states to prosper. Let them clamp down on freedom of expression, open their borders fully, and go full socialist and see how wealthy they remain.
What in heaven's name are you talking about?

Pro-tip for octopus: It's possible to be a radical politician and still retain an understanding of shades of gray. Modern "socialist" thinkers understand the virtues of capitalism far better than red-neck racists ever will. The right-wing politicians in the shit-hole states you apparently admire, like Alabama, haven't gone full-out Somalia have they? They even educate black kids at public expense (though probably only because of the threat of federal troops coming in). Why do you think AOC ó is she your boogeytman? ó wants to turn New York into a Stalinist- or Pol Pot-style dystopia?

Sheeesh. I guess we really are becoming an Idiotocracy.
  #50  
Old 05-10-2019, 11:15 PM
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What in heaven's name are you talking about?

Pro-tip for octopus: It's possible to be a radical politician and still retain an understanding of shades of gray. Modern "socialist" thinkers understand the virtues of capitalism far better than red-neck racists ever will. The right-wing politicians in the shit-hole states you apparently admire, like Alabama, haven't gone full-out Somalia have they? They even educate black kids at public expense (though probably only because of the threat of federal troops coming in). Why do you think AOC ó is she your boogeytman? ó wants to turn New York into a Stalinist- or Pol Pot-style dystopia?

Sheeesh. I guess we really are becoming an Idiotocracy.
Shit hole states? Idiotocracy? Boogeytman? Red-neck racists? Weird way to advocate your point of view as the party of reason. Btw, she's a boogeytwoman.

Anyways, it's to be seen if the the inhabitants of this so-called idiotocracy will vote for a Venezuelan style socialist or someone reasonable like Joe Biden. What do you think?
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