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Old 05-08-2019, 08:43 PM
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So Cory Booker is now Unelectable.


He claims to have come up with a fourteen-point plan to fight gun violence. Oddly, it is hard to find an actual list of the fourteen points. So I had to do my best with the*Failing New York Times.*

He is calling for a ban on bump-stocks. Cool. That has already been done.

He is calling for a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. He also wants to prohibit anyone from buying more than a certain number of guns at a time. (Estate sale? Matched dueling pistols?)

Maybe you like these ideas. Cool. But Senator Booker is unelectable. South Carolina will be the most important primary. He is writing it off, so he will not even become the nominee.

If he did get on the ticket, his ideas on guns would cost him many rural voters.

So anyway, "Thank you, next."
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:46 PM
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Does it matter? The kinds of people who latch onto their guns (white people who fear multiculturalism) think every democrat will take their guns and they aren't voting for a democrat anyway.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 05-08-2019 at 08:47 PM.
  #3  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:05 PM
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He claims to have come up with a fourteen-point plan to fight gun violence. Oddly, it is hard to find an actual list of the fourteen points. So I had to do my best with the*Failing New York Times.*

He is calling for a ban on bump-stocks. Cool. That has already been done.

He is calling for a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. He also wants to prohibit anyone from buying more than a certain number of guns at a time. (Estate sale? Matched dueling pistols?)

Maybe you like these ideas. Cool. But Senator Booker is unelectable. South Carolina will be the most important primary. He is writing it off, so he will not even become the nominee.

If he did get on the ticket, his ideas on guns would cost him many rural voters.

So anyway, "Thank you, next."
South Carolina is but one primary, and besides, most of the voters in that primary will probably agree with at least some of his positions on firearms. And in the general, they could agree with his positions on firearms and still not vote for him.

I agree that Booker is probably a long shot at best to win the nomination. He is so far struggling to carve out an identity. That said, it's way too early to tell one way or another.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:01 PM
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We will see.
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:19 PM
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The thesis here seems to be that a Democratic nominee calling for any tighter gun control is unelectable, in both the general and in a Democratic primary.

Funny thing though -
Quote:
an overwhelming majority of South Carolinians want to close the so-called “Charleston loophole.”

A Winthrop University poll of 1,007 South Carolina residents found 80 percent of respondents favor extending the review time that previously made it easier for a self-avowed white supremacist to buy the gun he used in the 2015 Emanuel AME Church murders.

The poll results released Thursday found 80 percent of Republicans said they support an expanded background check effort, compared with 83 percent of Democrats.

South Carolinians want to be able to own guns ... and they recognize that their right to do so is not threatened by regulations aimed at big weapons designed to kill many fast, at preventing people like Dylan Roof from easily getting weapons, at gun traffickers.

Gun control won't be an issue that wins South Carolina. But it isn't an issue that loses it now either.

Booker needs some hook to stand out of the crowd, a focus that others are not putting the spotlight on. Guns are his ... shot in the dark.
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:03 AM
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You really think Cory Booker had a chance of winning the rural southern vote?

If you want to be cynical this could work for Booker. Gun control is a controversial issue so he'll get media attention with it. And he can stake out a strong position on the issue. Once he's done that, every school shooting wins him votes. And we're currently averaging a school shooting every two weeks.
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:57 AM
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You really think Cory Booker had a chance of winning the rural southern vote? ....
He doesn't stand a chance if he won't show up. He has made a few stops over the last couple of months. But to stand out he will need to make appearances all over the state. If he really has decided to write SC off then other candidates will gather the votes and momentum.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:17 AM
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Does it matter? The kinds of people who latch onto their guns (white people who fear multiculturalism) think every democrat will take their guns and they aren't voting for a democrat anyway.
It is this sort of thinking that leads to the election or re-election of scum like Trump.

There are millions of Americans, with opinions fitting all along a bell curve — no, make that several different bell curves, on several different issues.

Some who "fear multiculturalism" might nevertheless vote for a black. Some who like guns might vote for a liberal, at least if the liberal isn't "in their face" with his/her dogmatic hatred of guns. Reject all the "rednecks of Middle America" and prepare to never win a national election again.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:28 AM
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Does it matter? The kinds of people who latch onto their guns (white people who fear multiculturalism) think every democrat will take their guns and they aren't voting for a democrat anyway.
Black people don't love their guns? Hmmm
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:19 AM
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We will see.
What I'm saying is that I agree that Booker probably won't win, but not really for the reasons you think. Has nothing to do with his position on guns, but more to do with getting out of Biden's, Sanders', and Harris' shadows.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:01 AM
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I agree that Booker isn't going to win the nomination. It has more to do with that there is little that he has to offer that someone else doesn't offer the same. There's a certain connectivity that he just seems to lack.

None of this has anything to do with guns. Every election we hear "if only Democrats would start toeing the NRA line, they'd win more elections." I say that's rubbish. If you're a single-issue gun "rights" voter, you vote R up and down the ballot every single time. I don't care if a Democrat sculpts a statue of LaPierre and kneels before it in prayer, these voters are never going to trust a Democrat about guns and will vote Republican forever. It's a waste of time going after these voters and costs them votes of those who don't worship guns.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:05 AM
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You really think Cory Booker had a chance of winning the rural southern vote?

If you want to be cynical this could work for Booker. Gun control is a controversial issue so he'll get media attention with it. And he can stake out a strong position on the issue. Once he's done that, every school shooting wins him votes. And we're currently averaging a school shooting every two weeks.
Kill a Kid for Kory.
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Old 05-09-2019, 07:55 AM
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South Carolina will be the most important primary....
Really? If so, is that more proof of Democratic masochism?

While I'm certainly in favor of pandering to the gun-crazed racist ignoramuses of Pennsylvania, Michigan and even Ohio, North Carolina and Iowa, I think the opinions of voters in shit-holes like Alabama and South Carolina should be treated as irrelevant. Politely, of course.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:01 AM
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That's another Democrat who can kiss the deplorable vote goodbye. When will they ever learn?
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:52 AM
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Kill a Kid for Kory.
Perhaps you are trying to be edgy or something, but this is not okay.

Advocating violence, allusions to the KKK, and general jerkishness. This is a warning for being a jerk.

[/moderating]
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:30 PM
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Perhaps you are trying to be edgy or something, but this is not okay.

Advocating violence, allusions to the KKK, and general jerkishness. This is a warning for being a jerk.

[/moderating]
Sorry. Any allusion to the KKK was accidental and embarrassing. Not trying for edginess, more a comment on cynicism. But, yeah, agree a warning is appropriate for the (accidental) KKK thing.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:27 PM
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I disagree with the premise of this OP. If the GOP can win without the support of people with the math skills to understand that tax cuts don't pay for themselves and aren't fooled by 89% of the tax cut dollars going to the top 1%, Dems can win without gun nuts.
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:41 PM
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He doesn't stand a chance if he won't show up. He has made a few stops over the last couple of months. But to stand out he will need to make appearances all over the state. If he really has decided to write SC off then other candidates will gather the votes and momentum.
I don't think it's Booker deciding to write South Carolina off. I think it's more like Booker being aware that South Carolina has already decided to write him off and that no amount of personal appearances will change that decision.

And this is one of the problems of our political system. You might be a candidate who appeals to a majority of the voters in the country. But if you don't appeal to a majority of the voters in South Carolina, you won't make it on the ballot. The two percent of our country's voters who live in South Carolina shouldn't be deciding the outcome of presidential races. How would South Carolina voters feel if their candidates had to be pre-approved by New York?
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:43 PM
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Here's the list:
https://medium.com/@corybooker/corys...c-ab377d9fb112
Keep guns out of the wrong hands with gun licensing:
..
Here’s how it would work: Individuals could seek a gun license at a designated local office, widely available in urban and rural areas, similar to applying for or renewing a passport. They would submit fingerprints, provide basic background information, and demonstrate completion of a certified gun safety course.

Bring real regulation and oversight to gun manufacturers:...

End legal immunity that prevents victims of gun violence from seeking justice:
While civil liability can be applied to sellers and manufacturers of nearly every product, as a result of a 2005 law the gun industry is immune from nearly all lawsuits. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) allows the gun industry to ignore public safety implications of the misuse of their products, such as gun trafficking.
Cory will fight to end gun industry immunity by repealing PLCAA and allow victims of gun violence to have their day in court when a gun dealer or manufacturer has acted negligently.


Require handgun microstamping:...
Close the “Boyfriend Loophole”:...
Ensure a background check on every gun sale by closing the loophole on guns show and online sales and the so-called “Charleston Loophole”:...
Ban assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and bump stocks:Provide dedicated funding for research on gun violence as a public health issue:...
Modernize and strengthen the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF):...
Support extreme risk prevention order laws:...
Limit gun buyers to one handgun per month:...
Require firearm owners to report lost or stolen firearms:...
Ramp up funding for community-based violence intervention programs:...
Increase trauma support for survivors and communities impacted by gun violence:
Call on the IRS to conduct an investigation into the NRA’s tax status:...
Finally, beginning on Day One in office, Cory will take executive action to build on ongoing efforts and take concrete steps forward — closing dangerous loopholes in gun sales, cracking down on unscrupulous dealers and gun manufacturers, and investing in communities impacted by gun violence."
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:53 PM
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Sorry. Any allusion to the KKK was accidental and embarrassing. Not trying for edginess, more a comment on cynicism. But, yeah, agree a warning is appropriate for the (accidental) KKK thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KNtWrC7vfI
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:06 PM
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Do note i am now taking something back. I had said that IMHO Kamala Harris was the most anti-gun Dem candidate, and that above shows i am quite wrong.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:26 PM
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Here's the list:
....
Limit gun buyers to one handgun per month:...
...
With one exception, every single item on the list seems like good common-sense to me, and shouldn't interfere with legitimate gun nuts. Which item is so very very bad that it makes gun owners want to curl up and cry?

The exception of course is the "one handgun per month." This will stab a spike through the efforts of the millions of hobbyists that want to buy a pair of dueling pistols. Should we ask Sen. Booker to map out an exemption for dueling pistols? (Or would it be better to leave it in, as a concrete evil to help infuriate millions of gun hobbyists?)
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:48 PM
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Does it matter? The kinds of people who latch onto their guns (white people who fear multiculturalism) think every democrat will take their guns and they aren't voting for a democrat anyway.
Bullshit. This sort of ridiculous, over the top rhetoric is stupid. I have voted for many Democrats, and several of my friends are running as Democrats. I'll be supporting them--in addition to doing some unofficial consulting for two candidates for statewide office, both Dems. I will not support any candidate that is anti-gun, regardless of party.

Stop spreading this nonsense.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:54 PM
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Black people don't love their guns? Hmmm
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
It is this sort of thinking that leads to the election or re-election of scum like Trump.

There are millions of Americans, with opinions fitting all along a bell curve — no, make that several different bell curves, on several different issues.

Some who "fear multiculturalism" might nevertheless vote for a black. Some who like guns might vote for a liberal, at least if the liberal isn't "in their face" with his/her dogmatic hatred of guns. Reject all the "rednecks of Middle America" and prepare to never win a national election again.
https://splinternews.com/the-simple-...s-g-1793860212

Quote:
Recently, we analyzed two separate data sources about Americans’ attitudes toward guns and gun control, and found that there is major, less-examined factor that influences the gun control debate: the racial identity and racial attitudes of gun owners, and those who support or oppose gun control legislation.

Put simply, America’s gun problem is a white supremacy problem in disguise.
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/13/114085...white-identity

You guys can pretend there is no connection between gun nuts and white identity politics, but there is. Nobody is saying everyone who owns a gun is a white nationalist. But its a connection that nobody is willing to talk about.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:55 PM
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You guys can pretend there is no connection between gun nuts and white identity politics, but there is. Nobody is saying everyone who owns a gun is a white nationalist. But its a connection that nobody is willing to talk about.
You just fucking said it.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:57 PM
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You just fucking said it.
And you guys bitched and whined the entire time.

Support for various forms of gun control among whites by level of racial resentment.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...p9udiuykud.png

Again nobody is saying all gun owners or opponents of gun control are racist. But its voluntarily oblivious to pretend there is no connection.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:59 PM
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Again nobody is saying all gun owners or opponents of gun control are racist. But its voluntarily oblivious to pretend there is no connection.
Again...YOU fucking said that.
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
With one exception, every single item on the list seems like good common-sense to me, and shouldn't interfere with legitimate gun nuts. Which item is so very very bad that it makes gun owners want to curl up and cry?

The exception of course is the "one handgun per month." This will stab a spike through the efforts of the millions of hobbyists that want to buy a pair of dueling pistols. Should we ask Sen. Booker to map out an exemption for dueling pistols? (Or would it be better to leave it in, as a concrete evil to help infuriate millions of gun hobbyists?)


Keep guns out of the wrong hands with gun licensing:
This can lead to one class per year in a hard to find location, with fees in the thousands.

End legal immunity that prevents victims of gun violence from seeking justice: This will end with every gun maker being sued out of existence. Some dude buys a gun, kills a bunch of kids. The parents sue the gun maker. Showing pictures of dead kids and the jury awards millions. Later, overturned on appeal, but still the legal costs would be tremendous.

Require handgun microstamping: does not work, has no useful Law enforcement value and can by bypassed in minutes. In CA this ended the sale of all new model handguns, including those with advanced safety features.

Ensure a background check on every gun sale by closing the loophole on guns show and online sales and the so-called “Charleston Loophole”: This means that a gun cant leave his guns to his widow, a many can give a gun to his son, a friend cant give a friend a gun as a present, etc. The "Charleston Loophole" allowed a man to buy a gun because the time spent doing the check ran out. I suppose this means there will be no time limit, which means? I am confused how he wants to plug this "loophole". I have suggested a better way to close this loophole- define who is a "gun dealer" is: maybe selling six guns a year or more?

Ban assault weapons, high-capacity magazines: Assault weapons commit a extremely low number of murders a year. Banning them all will reduce the number of murders by well under 4%, if any. High capacity magazines? Well a Judge has already weighed in on that: https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.ne...tiffs_-msj.pdf

Close the “Boyfriend Loophole”: who is a "boyfriend"? How do they plan on enforcing this?

Require firearm owners to report lost or stolen firearms: And if you dont? what then? How about if you dont know it was stolen? How do you prove you reported it? For how long?


Actually one handgun per month isnt horrible.

Cory hasn't thought this thru at all. Just shit thrown against the wall to see if it sticks.
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:43 PM
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....

Again nobody is saying all gun owners or opponents of gun control are racist. But its voluntarily oblivious to pretend there is no connection.
Isnt this a bit of a hijack?
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:05 PM
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Isnt this a bit of a hijack?
Kindof. My point is that the kinds of people opposed to moderate gun control probably wouldn't vote democratic anyway.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:07 PM
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As a Democrat, I am not comfortable with relinquishing any gun rights at the present time. There are literally Nazi groups in this country marching around and threatening people. What if there was some catastrophic crisis - economic, terror attack, natural disaster, who knows - that rendered the government unable to maintain civic order? These guys would be free to do what they've always wanted to do, and I am less than sanguine about the prospect of being unarmed in this scenario.

Does this mean I won't vote for Booker if he's the nominee? No. I would happily vote for him or for any Democrat.

But when people ask, "why would anyone need a rifle that can fire 30 rounds?" I just imagine a mob of neo-fascists on the rampage and I'm reminded of exactly why I might need it.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:09 PM
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Oakminster, do you know what really curtails someone's gun rights, a heck of a lot more than anything in Booker's proposal? Getting killed. The victims of gun violence have had all of their gun rights denied to them (as well as all of their other rights). If you want to support gun rights, the best way to do that is to take measures to stop people getting killed.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:11 PM
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Kindof. My point is that the kinds of people opposed to moderate gun control probably wouldn't vote democratic anyway.
I vote Democratic and have so all my life. (Well, I did vote to Arnie for Governator).

There are around 100 mIllion gun owners in this nation. Maybe that number is high? Let us say 75 Million. They are all adults. It only take around 65 million votes to elect president. Only 62MM voted for Trump.

Thus there are a LOT of Democratic gun owners. It's true that most diehard NRA members wont vote Dem, but they only number like 5MM.

And Cory's proposals arent in any way shape or form "moderate" : they are the most extreme of any Dem candidate I have seen.

Last edited by DrDeth; 05-09-2019 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post

Keep guns out of the wrong hands with gun licensing:
This can lead to one class per year in a hard to find location, with fees in the thousands.

End legal immunity that prevents victims of gun violence from seeking justice: This will end with every gun maker being sued out of existence. Some dude buys a gun, kills a bunch of kids. The parents sue the gun maker. Showing pictures of dead kids and the jury awards millions. Later, overturned on appeal, but still the legal costs would be tremendous.

Require handgun microstamping: does not work, has no useful Law enforcement value and can by bypassed in minutes. In CA this ended the sale of all new model handguns, including those with advanced safety features.

Ensure a background check on every gun sale by closing the loophole on guns show and online sales and the so-called “Charleston Loophole”: This means that a gun cant leave his guns to his widow, a many can give a gun to his son, a friend cant give a friend a gun as a present, etc. The "Charleston Loophole" allowed a man to buy a gun because the time spent doing the check ran out. I suppose this means there will be no time limit, which means? I am confused how he wants to plug this "loophole". I have suggested a better way to close this loophole- define who is a "gun dealer" is: maybe selling six guns a year or more?

Ban assault weapons, high-capacity magazines: Assault weapons commit a extremely low number of murders a year. Banning them all will reduce the number of murders by well under 4%, if any. High capacity magazines? Well a Judge has already weighed in on that: https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.ne...tiffs_-msj.pdf

Close the “Boyfriend Loophole”: who is a "boyfriend"? How do they plan on enforcing this?

Require firearm owners to report lost or stolen firearms: And if you dont? what then? How about if you dont know it was stolen? How do you prove you reported it? For how long?


....


Cry. Me. A. River.
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Old 05-09-2019, 06:50 PM
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Cry. Me. A. River.
Possibly the most useless response yet.
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:16 PM
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https://splinternews.com/the-simple-...s-g-1793860212



https://www.vox.com/2016/4/13/114085...white-identity

You guys can pretend there is no connection between gun nuts and white identity politics, but there is. Nobody is saying everyone who owns a gun is a white nationalist. But its a connection that nobody is willing to talk about.
I didn't mention anything about white supremacy. But somehow I doubt black Americans, or at least black males would be in favor of gun control.

Are black Americans big advocates for gun control, I work in Atlanta right now and I see quite a few black people walking around open carry. Is there data on it?
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Old 05-09-2019, 08:21 PM
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Close the “Boyfriend Loophole”: who is a "boyfriend"? How do they plan on enforcing this?
I had to look up the "Boyfriend Loophole." Apparently the Lautenberg amendment essentially restricts the Second Amendment rights of persons convicted of domestic violence. The loophole seems to be that the domestic violence conviction only applies when the conviction involved a spouse, former spouse, or co-parent. So, if you never married, cohabited with, or procreated with your GF, but you did get convicted of slapping her around, your right to buy a firearm and pop a cap in her is not impeded by the conviction.

So I guess that closing the loophole means applying the restriction to ALL persons convicted of domestic violence (although police officers might still be exempted). There appears to be no need to come up with a definition of "boyfriend," inasmuch as the phrase "Boyfriend Loophole" seems to be a term of art that generally references the most common reason for the Lautenberg Amendment failing to protect victims of DV.
  #38  
Old 05-09-2019, 08:29 PM
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Possibly the most useless response yet.
Really? You should get out more.

All this talk of LGBT's wanting "special rights," when it's really the Firearm Fetishistas who think they really are or should be elevated above the hoi polloi. Oh, you're worried about the safety of your children? Means nothing in the face of the right to own a machine pistol that spits 50 rounds a second - because THE FOUNDING FATHERS SAID SO!!!!1!!!!ZOMG.!!!

"Useless." Whatever.
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  #39  
Old 05-09-2019, 08:44 PM
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Back in the ‘60s, Republicans were pro-gun control because they didn’t want the rioting inner-city schvugs to be able to shoot back at the cops who were killing them.
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  #40  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
I had to look up the "Boyfriend Loophole." Apparently the Lautenberg amendment essentially restricts the Second Amendment rights of persons convicted of domestic violence. The loophole seems to be that the domestic violence conviction only applies when the conviction involved a spouse, former spouse, or co-parent. So, if you never married, cohabited with, or procreated with your GF, but you did get convicted of slapping her around, your right to buy a firearm and pop a cap in her is not impeded by the conviction.
...


The Boyfriend Loophole is about lack of restrictions on purchasing firearms. There is no right to use a firearm to "pop a cap in her".

We can talk about proposals for gun control regulations without imagining the situation is different than it truly is.
  #41  
Old 05-09-2019, 09:21 PM
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I didn't mention anything about white supremacy. But somehow I doubt black Americans, or at least black males would be in favor of gun control.

Are black Americans big advocates for gun control, I work in Atlanta right now and I see quite a few black people walking around open carry. Is there data on it?
All I could find was this. Blacks are slightly more in favor of gun control, but not by much.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8e141931914a

To reiterate, I'm not saying everyone opposed to gun control is a white supremacist. But racial resentment and opposition to gun control are connected issues, like it or not. And a lot of those people aren't going to vote democratic no matter what since the democrats are the cosmopolitan, multicultural party.
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:23 PM
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I think it's a smart move for Booker. Gun control is popular with both Democrats and the general public. And frankly, he could use an issue to help him stand out from the crowd, because his campaign's kind of fizzling. He lost the Bright Young Guy lane to Beto, who subsequently lost it to Mayor Pete. Now Beto is trying to pivot to being Climate Change Guy (sorry, Jay Inslee!). Booker could make worse choices than being Gun Violence Guy.

Can't read your link, but surprised to hear that. I live in Chicago, where there are many black people and many guns, and I can't think of a single black politician or community leader here who isn't strongly in favor of gun control. Well, OK, there's Farrakhan, but that's about it. Maybe blacks in the South feel differently?

Last edited by Thing Fish; 05-09-2019 at 10:25 PM.
  #43  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:48 PM
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It's interesting that for all the talk on this board of the crucial pro-gun Democratic vote, none of the 27 candidates has seized the opportunity to be Let Us Keep Our Assault Weapons Guy. I wonder why that is?
  #44  
Old 05-09-2019, 10:59 PM
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All I could find was this. Blacks are slightly more in favor of gun control, but not by much.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8e141931914a

To reiterate, I'm not saying everyone opposed to gun control is a white supremacist. But racial resentment and opposition to gun control are connected issues, like it or not. And a lot of those people aren't going to vote democratic no matter what since the democrats are the cosmopolitan, multicultural party.
I don't know man I read your cites and honestly I don't really find them compelling at all, polls about racial resentment, whatever that means equates to white supremacy I just don't find it very scientific. Last time I checked correlation also doesn't equal causation, your a smart guy, I read your posts but I find your whole white supremacy angle a bit of a red herring. If you want to just say those votes don't matter maybe that sounds like a more legitimate argument.
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:15 PM
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It's interesting that for all the talk on this board of the crucial pro-gun Democratic vote, none of the 27 candidates has seized the opportunity to be Let Us Keep Our Assault Weapons Guy. I wonder why that is?
Because "campaigning on NOT doing something" isn't really a thing?
  #46  
Old 05-09-2019, 11:35 PM
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With one exception, every single item on the list seems like good common-sense to me, and shouldn't interfere with legitimate gun nuts. Which item is so very very bad that it makes gun owners want to curl up and cry?
The whole going to jail bit he spoke about raises the pucker factor a bit:

Quote:
"Again, we should have a law that bans these weapons, and we should have a reasonable period in which people can turn in these weapons," Booker replied. "Right now we have a nation that allows in streets and communities these weapons that shouldn't exist."

For all of his tip-toeing around the question, he had to concede a central truth about law: after a "reasonable" grace period, any gun owner refusing to give up "assault weapons" by choice will be forced to do so under threat of prison time.
This represents a significant change in direction from the typical "ban assault weapons" trope. No longer a ban on sales or transfers, he wants the guns turned in.
  #47  
Old 05-10-2019, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
https://splinternews.com/the-simple-...s-g-1793860212

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/13/114085...white-identity

You guys can pretend there is no connection between gun nuts and white identity politics, but there is. Nobody is saying everyone who owns a gun is a white nationalist. But its a connection that nobody is willing to talk about.
Alarming reads! Thanks for the links Wesley Clark.

From the first link:
Quote:
Using this model, we found that racial resentment—not ethnicity, gender, geographic location, or political preference—was the single strongest predictor of gun ownership.
The graph shows that [B][I][U]over 90% of whites without racist resentmentWesley Clark (a) support a ban on high-cap magazines, (b) support a ban on assault rifles and (c) oppose making it easier to get concealed carry permit. Whites who score high on the racial resentment questionaire have very different opinions. Less than 40% of racially-resentful whites favored any of of (a), (b), (c). This is very strong correlation.

The second link looks at this correlation in more detail.
Quote:
People tend to associate guns with protection. Except if you look at it from a racial standpoint, this doesn't, as a self-interested argument for opposition to gun control, make much sense, because white Americans tend to live in more secure neighborhoods and tend to be more affluent and tend to be less likely by far to be victims of crime. So why is it that people who don't need the extra protection are the ones who want it?

But people who actually do need it from a realistic standpoint — so African Americans and Latinos who live in poor neighborhoods that are far more crime-ridden, where trust in police is low, where response rates by police are lower, where the quality of policing may also be affected — why is it that they're not rushing to get guns and support gun rights?
...
Half [of a very large group of white people] received three pictures of black people and three pictures of white people from the implicit association test. We asked them to evaluate these pictures in terms of looks and likability, which essentially is a distractor test — it just lets people spend a little bit more time with the pictures and provides a context for assessing the pictures and looking at them, because just having them go through pictures wouldn't make sense.

The other half didn't get the test. They didn't see any pictures whatsoever. They were not primed for race.

What we find is that, on average, the people who saw the pictures [and had race on their mind] were statistically significantly more likely to oppose gun control than the people who did not receive any pictures. Because there was random assignment and this was a controlled experiment, we can basically say that there's a causal relationship between racial considerations and attitudes about gun control.
@ DrDeth — What do you think about these studies? Obviously you're not a racist or a white supremacist, but when your own little gun club votes on such matters, how does it make you feel to be voting on the same side as the Nazis or those shouting "Jews will not replace us!" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
... Again nobody is saying all gun owners or opponents of gun control are racist. But its voluntarily oblivious to pretend there is no connection.
And again, I am on record as begging Democrats to pander to the racist gun nuts in states like Pennsylvania, Michigan and North Carolina. We can't get rid of Trump without their help, bless their stupid racist hearts. The U.S. "Greatest Generation" turned its attention to happier matters only when Nazi Germany and the Empire of Japan had been crushed. Anerca can becomne virtuous again ... after the GOP is crushed.
  #48  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:05 AM
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Oakminster, do you know what really curtails someone's gun rights, a heck of a lot more than anything in Booker's proposal? Getting killed. The victims of gun violence have had all of their gun rights denied to them (as well as all of their other rights). If you want to support gun rights, the best way to do that is to take measures to stop people getting killed.
That is the single stupidest thing you have ever posted.
  #49  
Old 05-10-2019, 10:54 AM
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Certainly Senator Booker's fourteen-point plan has some good points. (Well, in truth, I cannot find an official list. I took the Failing New York Times article and added it the Politico article and got thirteen points.) There are also some silly ideas.

* Limit how many guns you can buy a month (or whatever). What problem is this trying to solve?
* The assault-weapons ban. Even if you think it is a good idea, it can't be done. There are too many of them out there. Banning new sales won't make a whit of difference. All this does is upset people.
* Banning bump stocks. That train has left the station. It was in all the papers.
* Increasing funding for the ATF. This is exactly backwards. Disband the Gun Police. It is overly-influenced by pro-gun people. (That is why it has not had a director in many years.) Give all those functions to the real police, the FBI.

Good ideas?
* A nationwide permit system
* Required training
* More research
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  #50  
Old 05-10-2019, 11:13 AM
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Are gun owners lockstep against gun control?

In the wake of SCOTUS rulings that have solidified that gun control measures can pose no threat to most gun owners rights to their guns, is fear of the gun gabber the biggest issue motivating gun owners votes?

No to both.

Data point one.
Quote:
citizens support an assault rifle ban across most districts (389 of 435) within each party ...

... For comparison, the next figure shows the percentage of constituents who support proposals to “make it easier for people to obtain concealed carry permits.” ... Clearly, this policy proposal is unpopular in districts represented by both parties. Indeed, this proposal polled above 50 percent approval in just 61 of 435 districts. And, again, it is weakly correlated with each district’s presidential voting patterns, with a range of around 30 percent for most levels of presidential vote.
Data point two. If either group is going to be single or even top issue on gun control/rights this cycle it's those who want stricter than current gun control, not those afraid of teh gun grabber boogeyman.
Quote:
Voters citing the importance of guns — traditionally a source of GOP enthusiasm, favor Democrats for Congress by 58 percent to 33 percent.
Gun rights advocates have won. SCOTUS rulings protect their rights; they are secure and grabbing the guns as a class just cannot happen. The price of that victory is that the fear of the gun grabber boogyman is reduced. A D nominee who does not embrace greater controls within those limits is unelectable for the nom and for the nom expressing support for measures that can never occur will win more votes than it loses among those who vote in the D primaries, including in SC.
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