Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:49 PM
dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 14,131

Is this finally the end for Theresa May? (Update: Apparently so)


Yeah, we’ve seen this film before. But, does Theresa May finally resign as UK Prime Minister after the likely debacle for the Conservatives in the European elections tomorrow as well as a complete mutiny after her pathetic 4th turn to try to get the EU withdrawal bill through the House of Commons?

I have no idea if this will mean a general election or else Boris gets elected Tory leader and fails worse than May.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #2  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:27 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,122
American born prime minister to go with American Duchess/Princess?
  #3  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:02 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
I have no idea if this will mean a general election or else Boris gets elected Tory leader and fails worse than May.
Gove may well get the job.
  #4  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:08 PM
dalej42 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 14,131
Andrea Leadsom quits government as Leader of the House. May resigns on Sunday or before.
__________________
Twitter:@Stardales IG:@Dalej42
  #5  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:09 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
But, does Theresa May finally resign as UK Prime Minister after the likely debacle for the Conservatives in the European elections tomorrow
I forgot to address this bit. The results aren't released until the evening of Sunday May 26th after the last polling station has closed. So we'll be burdened with May at least until then.
  #6  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:36 PM
Baron Greenback's Avatar
Baron Greenback is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 11,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I forgot to address this bit. The results aren't released until the evening of Sunday May 26th after the last polling station has closed. So we'll be burdened with May at least until then.
FFS! Hahaha I always take the Friday off work after an election to watch the results come in, and have done so this time. Obviously I've completely forgotten that the Euro elections are on a different timetable. Oh well, Monday is a Bank Holiday anyway, so I guess it's not that bad. Beer and crisps on a Sunday night instead of tomorrow...

Last edited by Baron Greenback; 05-22-2019 at 04:39 PM.
  #7  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:10 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
Beer and crisps on a Sunday night instead of tomorrow...
Why not double-dip?
  #8  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:58 PM
Kimera757 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalej42 View Post
Yeah, we’ve seen this film before. But, does Theresa May finally resign as UK Prime Minister after the likely debacle for the Conservatives in the European elections tomorrow as well as a complete mutiny after her pathetic 4th turn to try to get the EU withdrawal bill through the House of Commons?

I have no idea if this will mean a general election or else Boris gets elected Tory leader and fails worse than May.
Not triggering Brexit before the European election was a really bad move, but she wasn't forced out over that. I don't think it matters how badly the Conservatives do in the European election as the UK is leaving soon.

There was a "mutiny" in the Conservative Party but the rules make it difficult to kick her out. I think there will be a hard Brexit, a very angry Ireland and Northern Ireland, a very angry Scotland, and then she will step down. Boris Johnson will probably be the next Prime Minister, although maybe he'll realize he has to deal with the disaster of a hard Brexit. (Gove is smarter, but has the charisma of a wet paper bag. I was really unimpressed hearing him stab Johnson in the back.)

It will be interesting to see who the left votes for. Corbyn? After Brexit, I hope the answer is no. Sadly, he's apparently made of charisma.
  #9  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:56 PM
Nobody is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,390
There's been something I've been wondering for a while now, and this seems like the perfect thread to ask it in.

From my understanding, Theresa May is being heavily criticized for not being able to get a Brexit deal passed. But from everything I read there is absolutely NO deal that will get a majority of Parliamentary votes. Alternative plans were put forth and couldn't get a majority either.

Why is May getting the brunt of the anger and criticism over not being able to submit a passible deal, when that very task seems to be utterly impossible?
__________________
End of Line.
  #10  
Old 05-22-2019, 08:17 PM
UDS is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
There's been something I've been wondering for a while now, and this seems like the perfect thread to ask it in.

From my understanding, Theresa May is being heavily criticized for not being able to get a Brexit deal passed. But from everything I read there is absolutely NO deal that will get a majority of Parliamentary votes. Alternative plans were put forth and couldn't get a majority either.

Why is May getting the brunt of the anger and criticism over not being able to submit a passible deal, when that very task seems to be utterly impossible?
Because acknowleding the impossiblity of the task would require Brexiters to admit that the vision of Brexit that they sold to the voters was a lie from the get-go.
  #11  
Old 05-22-2019, 08:40 PM
Kimera757 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
There's been something I've been wondering for a while now, and this seems like the perfect thread to ask it in.

From my understanding, Theresa May is being heavily criticized for not being able to get a Brexit deal passed. But from everything I read there is absolutely NO deal that will get a majority of Parliamentary votes. Alternative plans were put forth and couldn't get a majority either.

Why is May getting the brunt of the anger and criticism over not being able to submit a passible deal, when that very task seems to be utterly impossible?
May held a snap election in an effort to get more leverage, but lost seats, and much of that was her fault. She didn't entirely fail... the Conservatives are still the largest party, but are in a minority position and have to kiss up to an extremely conservative, Northern Ireland Protestant party. Said party is not in favor of a "hard border" with Ireland.

I don't know if May could have pulled that off if she had not bothered with the snap election. I suspect not, but it's easy for Brexiteers to say "if only"...
  #12  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:51 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
There's been something I've been wondering for a while now, and this seems like the perfect thread to ask it in.

From my understanding, Theresa May is being heavily criticized for not being able to get a Brexit deal passed. But from everything I read there is absolutely NO deal that will get a majority of Parliamentary votes. Alternative plans were put forth and couldn't get a majority either.

Why is May getting the brunt of the anger and criticism over not being able to submit a passible deal, when that very task seems to be utterly impossible?
A big problem stems from the fact that the majority of the public voted leave and a majority of the MP's are remain. That fundamental fact colours all of this. The vast majority of MP's were returned by parties with a manifesto commitment to deliver Brexit whilst all the while the majority of sitting MP's hold no love for it. Why would we be surprised that there are splits left right and centre? If you have the power to frustrate a process that you think leads to a bad outcome.....why not exercise it?

You are right that there is no deal that will command a majority. None of the indicative votes show a workable majority in favour.
A change to any other Leader or flavour of Government will not make a jot of difference either. Remember that Corbyn wants to leave as well and always has done even though labour voters (in general) lean "remain".
The splits in the tories will be as nothing compared to a Labour party in power. A snap election will solve nothing.

What will be interesting is if the EU elections show a majority, again, for leave parties. How will that be spun?

Interesting times. I'm no brexiteer, I was always for remaining in the EU and for complete reformation but the UK never had a leader with the balls to do so. I actually may vote for a brexit party or an EU reformation candidate today to ensure that we do have a disruptive influence in there when the inevitable non-brexit happens.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #13  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:55 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
Because acknowleding the impossiblity of the task would require Brexiters to admit that the vision of Brexit that they sold to the voters was a lie from the get-go.
This is the one point that very few politicians seem willing to address.

If the task is impossible, at what point did it become impossible? why were the people not informed that such a threshold was being crossed? why were they not given the option of deciding on whether to cross it? who was holding the ball at that time? was that point not noted because of incompetence or ignored in favour of a political agenda?
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way

Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 05-23-2019 at 04:58 AM.
  #14  
Old 05-23-2019, 05:30 AM
nightshadea is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 5,269
they need to hold a revote... i doubt it would pass this time
  #15  
Old 05-23-2019, 05:34 AM
GreenWyvern's Avatar
GreenWyvern is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,481
Even if May resigns in the next few days, there still has to be a Tory leadership contest and she will stay in office until it's decided. That may only be some time in July.
  #16  
Old 05-23-2019, 05:38 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
they need to hold a revote... i doubt it would pass this time
By what sort of a majority would "remain" need to win in order for the issue to be solved? And why would anyone on either side have confidence that it settled the matter?
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #17  
Old 05-23-2019, 05:48 AM
nightshadea is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: a condo in hell 10th lvl
Posts: 5,269
id say at least 60 percent and just to make sure id write in its binding for 2-5 years

Last edited by nightshadea; 05-23-2019 at 05:48 AM.
  #18  
Old 05-23-2019, 06:12 AM
Alessan's Avatar
Alessan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tel Aviv
Posts: 24,267
Well, if there's one thing the UK has learned from this, is never to hold a binding referendum on anything ever again.
  #19  
Old 05-23-2019, 08:35 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
id say at least 60 percent and just to make sure id write in its binding for 2-5 years
I'd be very, very surprised if you got over 60% in favour of remain.

Plus, without a major change in law this next referendum could only be "binding" to the same degree as the previous one. i.e. all sides promised to abide by the result.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #20  
Old 05-23-2019, 10:57 AM
Jonathan Chance is online now
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 22,672
The different there, of course, is that for a 'remain' to occur all parliament needs to do it, well, nothing.

And while 'nothing' will also get them a Brexit...it won't get them an advantageous one. And they sure don't want that. The recession it's likely to cause will cost most of them their jobs the next time they need to face the voters.
  #21  
Old 05-23-2019, 11:05 AM
Thing Fish is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago (NL)
Posts: 3,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
This is the one point that very few politicians seem willing to address.

If the task is impossible, at what point did it become impossible? why were the people not informed that such a threshold was being crossed? why were they not given the option of deciding on whether to cross it? who was holding the ball at that time? was that point not noted because of incompetence or ignored in favour of a political agenda?
Weren't the Remain side informing the people of all that during the campaign leading up to the referendum?
  #22  
Old 05-23-2019, 11:07 AM
Dr. Drake is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
The different there, of course, is that for a 'remain' to occur all parliament needs to do it, well, nothing.
Having invoked Article 50, if they do nothing, Brexit occurs on October 31st. 2019 so far has not led me to be optimistic that a solution will be reached before that date, and I see no likelihood that a further extension will be provided.
  #23  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:00 PM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
Weren't the Remain side informing the people of all that during the campaign leading up to the referendum?
I read widely and deeply during the campaign and no, it was not a point that I heard made often at all and that's not surprising as it wouldn't have been a popular point to make to the notoriously contrary British public.

Similarly the point was never made that voting for remain was not a neutral vote. it was not a vote for keeping things exactly as they are as it would have been taken a green light by Europe to push on even further and faster. That was a point rarely raised never mind acknowledged.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #24  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:23 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
Because acknowleding the impossiblity of the task would require Brexiters to admit that the vision of Brexit that they sold to the voters was a lie from the get-go.
They didn't sell a detailed vision. They were very particular in not specifying the post-Brexit future. Mainly because they all had separate visions and knew they'd be at each others' throats immediately afterwards. They also saw what happened when the SNP presented their detailed vision.

Besides, Remain were busy spewing all sorts of laughable, obviously false nonsense. So they just sat back and let Remain lose the referendum.
  #25  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:37 PM
GreenWyvern's Avatar
GreenWyvern is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,481
Brilliant column from Ian Dunt, editor of politics.co.uk

Quote:
Brexit broke this prime minister, just like it broke the last one. But it won't end there. It'll break the next one too. And it'll keep on breaking them, until we admit what it is.

It is a beast. That's the honest truth of it. You can ignore it. You can write pieces about how we should all pretend the beast is not in the room and come back together as a country. You can urge people to look at how the beast has attractive ears, if you look at them in the right light, and try not to notice the claws or the great big slavering canines. You can stubbornly insist that people voted for the beast and refuse to pay attention to how it is ominously peering down at you. It doesn't matter. The beast remains a beast and eventually it'll eat you alive.

The truth about Brexit - the plain and simple truth of it, which no-one can make go away - is that it can only be done to a long timetable and with a lot of pain. It is fiendishly complicated. It requires the full capacity of the British political system for about five to seven years. The sacrifices it demands would probably never be accepted by parliament. And if you managed to get over all those obstacles, your only accomplishment would be to make the country poorer and weaker than it was before.

A true Brexiter, someone who was really committed to doing this, would not be lying and misleading, like May, or out on the street promoting their own pure ideological certainty, like Nigel Farage. They would be honest about the timeframe and the trade offs.

If the border is to remain open in Ireland as it is now, we need to accept the backstop and then a very close regulatory relationship. If you want free movement to end, you are cutting off services access to the continent, which is extremely harmful for an economy like the UK's. If you give up your role in Europe, you lose the ability to shape global regulations and will eventually have to get in line with rules you had no hand in forming. These are simple facts and no amount of gibberish about 'max-fac' or 'hybrid solutions' or 'alternative arrangements' has made them go away.

Maybe that's all worth it. But if so it needs someone who is prepared to say it - to level with voters about what is happening. Over the last three years we have seen a masterclass in the consequences of not doing so. Crazed secrecy, logical contortions, transparent parliamentary tricks, and the use of deception as a primary function of the operation of government.

The next Tory leader will find themselves in precisely this place, but much sooner.
The rest of the column is here.
  #26  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:54 PM
UDS is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
By what sort of a majority would "remain" need to win in order for the issue to be solved? And why would anyone on either side have confidence that it settled the matter?
What do you mean by "the issue to be solved"?
  #27  
Old 05-24-2019, 12:32 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
What do you mean by "the issue to be solved"?
The issue of leaving or remaining. I'm not quite sure what you are asking.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #28  
Old 05-24-2019, 12:50 AM
UDS is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
The issue of leaving or remaining. I'm not quite sure what you are asking.
If there's a concrete proposal for leaving put before the electorate in a post-legislative referendum, with a default of not leaving, then a majority of even 1 vote will "solve" that issue, in the sense of making a conclusive choice that will be implemented. I don't see why you would think a majority of more than that might be required.

I thought you might be asking what kind of majority would be needed to "solve" the issue in the sense of establishing a settled national consensus on the best course of action.
  #29  
Old 05-24-2019, 01:40 AM
Nobody is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
Because acknowleding the impossiblity of the task would require Brexiters to admit that the vision of Brexit that they sold to the voters was a lie from the get-go.
That's part of it, I'm sure, But you also have people like Jeremy Corbyn who keeps calling for no confidence votes to, I assume, become PM himself. Or maybe it will be Boris Johnson.
To keep this short I'll just say,
1) I would think the smartest thing would be to avoid becoming (or attempting to become) PM until either Brexit goes through or Article 50 gets withdrawn.
2) I wonder if Corbyn, Johnson, and others like them believe their own press and honestly think that if they were in charge that they could deliver a nearly pain free Brexit that most people would agree to.
__________________
End of Line.
  #30  
Old 05-24-2019, 02:00 AM
Nobody is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
May held a snap election in an effort to get more leverage, but lost seats, and much of that was her fault. She didn't entirely fail... the Conservatives are still the largest party, but are in a minority position and have to kiss up to an extremely conservative, Northern Ireland Protestant party. Said party is not in favor of a "hard border" with Ireland.

I don't know if May could have pulled that off if she had not bothered with the snap election. I suspect not, but it's easy for Brexiteers to say "if only"...
That seems like valid criticism. Although, from what I've heard, the Ireland, Northern Ireland border issue would be a huge problem regardless.
__________________
End of Line.
  #31  
Old 05-24-2019, 02:08 AM
Nobody is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
A big problem stems from the fact that the majority of the public voted leave and a majority of the MP's are remain. That fundamental fact colours all of this. The vast majority of MP's were returned by parties with a manifesto commitment to deliver Brexit whilst all the while the majority of sitting MP's hold no love for it. Why would we be surprised that there are splits left right and centre? If you have the power to frustrate a process that you think leads to a bad outcome.....why not exercise it?
Because of the possibility that doing so could lead to a no-deal Brexit?
Quote:
I actually may vote for a brexit party or an EU reformation candidate today to ensure that we do have a disruptive influence in there when the inevitable non-brexit happens.
For your country's sake, I hope Article 50 gets withdrawn. Also, as someone living in a country with a disruptive politician backed up by a disruptive party I speak with experience when I say, don't do it. All you'll be doing is making Russia happy.
__________________
End of Line.
  #32  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:06 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
So, she's going on June 7th. Two more weeks of the incompetent idiot.
  #33  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:30 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
I thought you might be asking what kind of majority would be needed to "solve" the issue in the sense of establishing a settled national consensus on the best course of action.
That is what I was asking, seeing as 52-48 wasn't taken as a settled consensus in 2016.

My contention would be that an overwhelming majority for either side is unlikely and so reaching a settled consensus may well be impossible.

My further point was that taking "remain" to mean the status quo is naive. Once a referendum was called, regardless of the decision, things will continue as they did before and that was certainly not a point admitted to by the remain side.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #34  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:40 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
My contention would be that an overwhelming majority for either side is unlikely and so reaching a settled consensus may well be impossible.
It's probably impossible now, but I think there was a real chance to build some kind of consensus in 2016 and 2017, befitting the narrowish result to a fuzzy question. But that would have involved something other than drawing "red lines" on free movement and the customs union, which would have torn the Tories apart (again). Theresa May chose to seek a deal that would unify the Conservative Party instead, using toxic, extreme catchphrases like "Brexit means Brexit" and "no deal is better than a bad deal" to convince people that the public had voted for the very hard right-wing Brexit that she negotiated. And it still wasn't enough to unify her party, so she spewed all those toxins into the political system and got nothing but failure and humiliation for it.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-24-2019 at 05:43 AM.
  #35  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:41 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
Because of the possibility that doing so could lead to a no-deal Brexit?
That is a risk but to be honest the only sensible option once triggering article 50 was to make no deal the default and negotiate from there. Once there were enough people in parliament wanting to take no deal off the table then there was no hope of any deal that could garner consensus.
I would have had an internal process of defining the clear Brexit position, agreed by parliament before ever triggering article 50, regardless of how long that took.
It was political weakness to trigger it too early and weakness again not to establish no deal as the default.

There may be a written record of this on the dope somewhere but my stance throughout has been that Brexit won't happen and the majority remain MP's will frustrate any attempt to enact it. The issues will not be solved and Europe ends up with a disgruntled UK bound to an organisation that they are not strongly behind with the E.U. certain to push through even greater federalisation and the likelihood of some degree of covert punishment for the UK. That's not a healthy position to be in for either party.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way

Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 05-24-2019 at 05:44 AM.
  #36  
Old 05-24-2019, 05:44 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Once a referendum was called, regardless of the decision, things will continue as they did before and that was certainly not a point admitted to by the remain side.
Just to be clear, I of course mean that "things will not continue as they did before"
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #37  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:38 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
It's probably impossible now, but I think there was a real chance to build some kind of consensus in 2016 and 2017, befitting the narrowish result to a fuzzy question.
That is not correct: the question posed in the 2016 referendum was not fuzzy at all. We were given the choice of Leave or Remain. It was crystal clear. Let me refresh your memory.
  #38  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:41 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,366
I know exactly what the ballot paper said. The fuzziness is that not-in-the-EU is not a defined status. There is no way to meaningfully describe the entire set of countries that are not in the EU, which includes Norway and North Korea. There are any number of options that would faithfully execute the directive to "leave the European Union."

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-24-2019 at 07:46 AM.
  #39  
Old 05-24-2019, 07:52 AM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 83,232
Resigning in tears... as her successor might end up doing, too: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/24/europ...ntl/index.html
  #40  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:29 AM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
I know exactly what the ballot paper said.
So why deny it?

Quote:
The fuzziness is that not-in-the-EU is not a defined status.
That question was not asked, so your point is irrelevant.
  #41  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:30 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,366
I believe what I said was perfectly clear. I'm sorry you don't agree.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-24-2019 at 08:35 AM.
  #42  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:38 AM
Jonathan Chance is online now
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 22,672

The Moderator Speaks


Thread title altered to reflect new info.
  #43  
Old 05-24-2019, 09:43 AM
PatrickLondon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: London
Posts: 3,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
That question was not asked, so your point is irrelevant.
Since "leave the EU" necessarily comported the process of leaving and defining a new relationship with it and every other country, it WAS asked. And the Leave campaigns' answer was that a vote to leave meant all sorts of things that could not - and that they should have known could not (because they were told often enough) - be delivered: hence the dog's breakfast that has now resulted.
  #44  
Old 05-24-2019, 11:06 AM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 42,320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
That question was not asked, so your point is irrelevant.
If it wasn't relevant, and the answer to the question gave clear guidelines on what kind of status was meant, then the current clusterfuck wouldn't be going on. The question asked for an explicit choice between alternatives that were undefined, and so was decidedly fuzzy. It would be like having a referendum for Puerto Rico asking "Do you want to be part of the United States or not?"
  #45  
Old 05-24-2019, 02:54 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 83,240
The fundamental problem is that the British people had a choice of "Retain all of the benefits and responsibilities of EU membership" or "lose all of the benefits and responsibilities of EU membership", but the majority of the people wanted "keep all of the benefits but lose all of the responsibilities", without regard for the fact that that's not possible.
  #46  
Old 05-24-2019, 02:58 PM
Quartz's Avatar
Quartz is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Where haggis roam free
Posts: 31,111
Do you have a cite for that? Because that was not my experience of the Brexiteers to whom I spoke.
  #47  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:04 PM
psychonaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Well, if there's one thing the UK has learned from this, is never to hold a binding referendum on anything ever again.
But the Brexit referendum was not binding; it was simply a consultative one. Parliament would not have been doing anything illegal or unconstitutional if it had simply ignored the result.
  #48  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:11 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
SDSAB
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: my Herkimer Battle Jitney
Posts: 83,232
A pretty good CNN overview of May's record, almost all of it bad: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/24/uk/th...gbr/index.html
  #49  
Old 05-26-2019, 08:14 PM
UDS is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
That is what I was asking, seeing as 52-48 wasn't taken as a settled consensus in 2016.

My contention would be that an overwhelming majority for either side is unlikely and so reaching a settled consensus may well be impossible.
Stop me if I'm wrong, but this language suggests you think of a referendum as something which can produce a settled consensus.

This is incorrect. A referendum may tell you whether you have a settled consensus, and if there is one it may help a dissentient minority to accept that reality, but it won't produce a conensus that doesn't otherwise exist.

We know the country is deeply and almost evenly divided over Brexit; we don't need a referendum to tell us this. All that a referendum can tell is is whether support for leaving is (marginally) greater than support for remaining, or vice versa. The UK shoul only hold a referendum if that matters.

The thing is, if it mattered that in 2016 support for leaving was greater than support for remaining, its very hard to argue that it doesn't matter in 2019 where the balance of support lies. The arguments that the UK must "respect" the 2016 result are the same arguments that suggest it's important to hold another referendum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
My further point was that taking "remain" to mean the status quo is naive. Once a referendum was called, regardless of the decision, things will continue as they did before and that was certainly not a point admitted to by the remain side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Just to be clear, I of course mean that "things will not continue as they did before"
Not sure I get your point here. Whether a refernendum was held or not, things were not going to "continue as they did before', in the sense that the EU (and the UK) would continue to develop politically and in other ways into the future. The referendum was essentially about the question of whether the UK would continue to be involved in and profoundly affected by the development of the EU, or would cease to be involved in, and would be somewhat less profoundly affected by, the development of the EU. "Everything will remain as it is for ever" was not on the ballot paper, but I seriously doubt that anyone imagined that it was.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:56 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017