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  #51  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:47 PM
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I know who you are talking about! He came to Dallas next. Was a disaster.

Also, honestly, not at all like the real military. Actual military people don't cultivate a culture of fear.
Neither do people who are genuinely in charge, be they parents, teachers, supervisors, etc.
  #52  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:25 PM
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Sounds like the OP thinks students would benefit from being beaten but not bullied. No-sir-ee, no bullying! Beating, sure. Bullying, no.
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Old 05-28-2019, 07:24 AM
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The Army Corp of Engineers was responsible for facilities management in DC pubic schools. Guess how easy it was to get the heat fixed, or a window replaced, or anything else when you had to ask the ACE and didn't have a single member of Congress to make sure ACE took your request seriously.
  #54  
Old 05-28-2019, 08:18 AM
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Sounds like the OP thinks students would benefit from being beaten but not bullied. No-sir-ee, no bullying! Beating, sure. Bullying, no.
I just wanted to put out this story told to me years ago by a friend from Nigeria.

It seemed that a major high school in Legos Nigeria had gotten out of control. Students turned it into toal chaos. Well the military DID go in and (sort of) take over. I dont think they had anything to do with instruction or curriculum but they DEFINITELY were in charge of discipline. For example any student causing trouble was immediately taken outside and dealt with. For example they had to hoist a brick over their head and run around the school while soldiers with sticks chased them. You can bet that pretty soon every student toed the line.

Now if you recall the movie "Stand and Deliver" where a tough as nails former miliary leader principal came and and turned around a failed Philadephia school, the idea has credit IF the school has gone totally over and teachers cannot teach because of mass chaos.

So I think their are times it might be needed.
  #55  
Old 05-28-2019, 08:48 AM
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Now if you recall the movie "Stand and Deliver" where a tough as nails former miliary leader principal came and and turned around a failed Philadephia school, the idea has credit IF the school has gone totally over and teachers cannot teach because of mass chaos.

So I think their are times it might be needed.
Pretty sure that "Stand and Deliver" was about a math teacher who taught students calculus.
  #56  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:19 AM
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It seemed that a major high school in Legos Nigeria had gotten out of control. Students turned it into toal chaos. Well the military DID go in and (sort of) take over. I dont think they had anything to do with instruction or curriculum but they DEFINITELY were in charge of discipline. For example any student causing trouble was immediately taken outside and dealt with. For example they had to hoist a brick over their head and run around the school while soldiers with sticks chased them. You can bet that pretty soon every student toed the line.

Now if you recall the movie "Stand and Deliver" where a tough as nails former miliary leader principal came and and turned around a failed Philadephia school, the idea has credit IF the school has gone totally over and teachers cannot teach because of mass chaos.

So I think their are times it might be needed.
Woah, dude. Handy tip: while you might secretly wish that our nation were turned into a brutal dictatorship that beat children into submission, maybe don't use your out-loud voice on the subject?
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Old 05-28-2019, 11:29 AM
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I think a key to any significant reform is to accept the fact that not all students have to attend public school no matter what they do and how they act.

If you talk to veteran teachers who teach in difficult locales, they'll tell you that, if they could eliminate the 20% that don't want to be there and spend all of their time disrupting the environment, their results would increase substantially.
  #58  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:35 AM
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Pretty sure that "Stand and Deliver" was about a math teacher who taught students calculus.
I suspect that Urbanredneck is actually thinking of the movie "Lean on Me," though it's not clear to me if Joe Louis Clark (the principal in that film) actually had a military background, or if he was just a hard-nosed disciplinarian.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 05-28-2019 at 11:37 AM.
  #59  
Old 05-28-2019, 11:54 AM
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Woah, dude. Handy tip: while you might secretly wish that our nation were turned into a brutal dictatorship that beat children into submission, maybe don't use your out-loud voice on the subject?
Just in some cases. Kids who need more discipline than the usual population. You know, the Nigerians.

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I think a key to any significant reform is to accept the fact that not all students have to attend public school no matter what they do and how they act.

If you talk to veteran teachers who teach in difficult locales, they'll tell you that, if they could eliminate the 20% that don't want to be there and spend all of their time disrupting the environment, their results would increase substantially.
And when 20$ of the population is illierate, unsocialized, unsuited to even menial employment, what do we do then?

9/10, the highly disruptive kid is a perfectly normal kid put in an environment beyond his ability to handle. He's being abused. He's hungry. He doesn't think he's going to live to be 18. He believes he is so worthless, all this is worthless, that there's no point. He's been through some terrifying shit and all-over anger has destroyed his ability to be rational and he's lashing out.

But it's easier to blame him for the problems the other kids are having than to recognize that, 9/10, he's the worst victim of the problems of society, not the cause.

And I say this as a nearly 20 year veteran of one of the largest, poorest school districts in the country.
  #60  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:00 PM
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And when 20$ of the population is illierate, unsocialized, unsuited to even menial employment, what do we do then?
We're already there with that group, believe. The difference is that we are allowing them to drag as many people down with them as they can.
  #61  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:06 PM
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We're already there with that group, believe. The difference is that we are allowing them to drag as many people down with them as they can.
You think 20% of Americans are fundamentally unsuited to life in society? 1 in 5?
  #62  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:21 PM
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The OP must be fucking joking the military can't even run itself.

And the OP's view of the public school system seems to be garnered from some right-wing fantasy.

The main problem with the public school system is that people aren't willing to pay enough taxes to support their schools and rich neighborhoods' school districts get too much.
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  #63  
Old 05-28-2019, 12:55 PM
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You think 20% of Americans are fundamentally unsuited to life in society? 1 in 5?
Out of the subset I interact with daily, that's an accurate estimation IMHO.
  #64  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:45 PM
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Now if you recall the movie "Stand and Deliver" where a tough as nails former miliary leader principal came and and turned around a failed Philadephia school, the idea has credit IF the school has gone totally over and teachers cannot teach because of mass chaos.
First of all, as has been pointed out, wrong movie.

Secondly, it was a damn movie, not real life. In real life, Joe Clark's methods didn't accomplish all that much, and the school had to be taken over by the state. Clark improved discipline in the short term - largely by expelling students en masse, which is easy and doesn't really solve any problems - but test scores did not improve and such improvements as he made didn't last.

"Durrrrr, treat 'em like soldiers" is a dumb idea. The purpose of school is to educate, not just discipline. Discipline is just one of the many tools needed to ensure learning takes place. Making discipline the ends, instead of a means, means forgetting why you have schools in the first place.
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  #65  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:47 PM
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Thing is in some schools you really do have about 1 in 5 kids who are nothing but idiots/jerks/troublemakers and cause massive problems and about the only way to make it so the 4 in 5 can learn is to somehow separate them. You can do it by creating a different school like a magnet system or kick them out (which your not allowed to do until age 21). Another is to basically run the school like a military school with tons of security and staff with strict rules and consequences but there is rarely a budget for that.
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Old 05-28-2019, 02:01 PM
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Out of the subset I interact with daily, that's an accurate estimation IMHO.
by nature or by nurture?

As an adult business owner or patron, you are not expected to have to deal with those who have not learned to be productive members of society.

As a school, you are expected to take people who are not productive members of society and turn them into productive members of society.
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Old 05-28-2019, 03:10 PM
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Thing is in some schools you really do have about 1 in 5 kids who are nothing but idiots/jerks/troublemakers and cause massive problems and about the only way to make it so the 4 in 5 can learn is to somehow separate them.
How do you know that? Sounds like just a made up number based on watching movies.
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  #68  
Old 05-28-2019, 03:29 PM
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I know who you are talking about! He came to Dallas next. Was a disaster.
*wink*
  #69  
Old 05-28-2019, 03:35 PM
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Thing is in some schools you really do have about 1 in 5 kids who are nothing but idiots/jerks/troublemakers and cause massive problems and about the only way to make it so the 4 in 5 can learn is to somehow separate them. You can do it by creating a different school like a magnet system or kick them out (which your not allowed to do until age 21). Another is to basically run the school like a military school with tons of security and staff with strict rules and consequences but there is rarely a budget for that.
Look, every kid deserves to learn. And yes, I've been in classrooms where a kid with severe trauma disrupts the class, and it freakin SUCKS, and a lot of learning is lost.

But fantasizing about chasing such kids with sticks, presumably so they can be beaten if they don't run fast enough? That's loathsome.

I am all for adequate funding of student support services. Sending soldiers after kids to commit violence is not student support.

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  #70  
Old 05-28-2019, 03:37 PM
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How do you know that? Sounds like just a made up number based on watching movies.
I've never known confirmation bias to be wrong.
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Old 05-28-2019, 05:45 PM
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Look, every kid deserves to learn. And yes, I've been in classrooms where a kid with severe trauma disrupts the class, and it freakin SUCKS, and a lot of learning is lost.

But fantasizing about chasing such kids with sticks, presumably so they can be beaten if they don't run fast enough? That's loathsome.

I am all for adequate funding of student support services. Sending soldiers after kids to commit violence is not student support.
I agree that the way 1980's Nigerian military responded to a problem was harsh.

My point was that at a certain point one has to do something different and often radical. You might have been in a single classroom with some bad kids but I've seen whole schools full of them with an administration that does nothing and the teachers just cannot teach because the place is chaos. The students learn almost nothing and the good ones eventually end up leaving.
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:06 PM
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an administration that does nothing
Perhaps the administration should be taken out back and beaten with sticks?
  #73  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:16 PM
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DC pubic schools.
Do they also teach the Non-Intercourse Act in history class?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Intercourse_Act_(1809)
  #74  
Old 05-28-2019, 06:25 PM
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Thing is in some schools you really do have about 1 in 5 kids who are nothing but idiots/jerks/troublemakers and cause massive problems and about the only way to make it so the 4 in 5 can learn is to somehow separate them. You can do it by creating a different school like a magnet system or kick them out (which your not allowed to do until age 21). Another is to basically run the school like a military school with tons of security and staff with strict rules and consequences but there is rarely a budget for that.
My old town had an "alternative school" that was really not much more than a warehouse for kids like this. They didn't take attendance or do lesson plans, and when it moved from a downtown building to an unused elementary school building in a middle-class neighborhood, the neighbors successfully petitioned to have it moved back because of (among other things) all the drug dealers who openly hung around all day. I knew a few people who worked there (they all had their own reasons for choosing to do so) and the one thing they all agreed on was that they believed that the school should have a gynecologist and a urologist on retainer, to sterilize all the students on admission. This was in a city of 40,000 in rural Illinois, no less.

I told that story to a woman I know who teaches at a regular HS in my area, and she told me that the alt-schools here have stricter rules than the regular schools, so kids won't want to go there.
  #75  
Old 05-28-2019, 07:49 PM
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I agree that the way 1980's Nigerian military responded to a problem was harsh.
Good?
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My point was that at a certain point one has to do something different and often radical. You might have been in a single classroom with some bad kids but I've seen whole schools full of them
Ima stop you right there. No I haven't, and no you haven't. If you think you have, then all I can guarantee is that your students have been in a classroom with an unfit teacher.

They aren't bad kids.

Look, we're talking about people too young to make decisions well. We don't allow them to vote, or to join the military, or to sign contracts, or to drink, because we recognize that they're not fully responsible for their behavior. It's incumbent on the adults around them to provide them a context in which they learn how to make good decisions.

AND BEATING THEM WITH STICKS IS NOT THAT GD CONTEXT.

Yes, we need to do something radical. Fortunately, we know some things we can do:

1) Make it practically harder for them to access guns, through appropriate firearms legislation.
2) Address the kinds of structural inequalities that incentivize violent crime.
3) Address ACES, specifically the trauma that comes from living in a high-violence context.

This last one is going to involve school measures (adequately staffing social workers, counselors, and psychologists) and community measures (similar to step 2).

It might not satisfy vengeance fantasies of angry ex-teachers in the way that imagining beating children with sticks would, but it'd got a damn sight further in actually fixing the very real problem.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-28-2019 at 07:49 PM.
  #76  
Old 05-28-2019, 10:02 PM
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I just wanted to put out this story told to me years ago by a friend from Nigeria.

It seemed that a major high school in Legos Nigeria had gotten out of control. Students turned it into toal chaos. Well the military DID go in and (sort of) take over. I dont think they had anything to do with instruction or curriculum but they DEFINITELY were in charge of discipline. For example any student causing trouble was immediately taken outside and dealt with. For example they had to hoist a brick over their head and run around the school while soldiers with sticks chased them. You can bet that pretty soon every student toed the line.

Now if you recall the movie "Stand and Deliver" where a tough as nails former miliary leader principal came and and turned around a failed Philadephia school, the idea has credit IF the school has gone totally over and teachers cannot teach because of mass chaos.

So I think their are times it might be needed.
Not to be nit-picky, but this has been driving me nuts. The capital of Nigeria is Lagos, not Legos. It's a huge city with a population of around 17 million people, none of whom live in buildings made of interlocking plastic bricks.

Carry on.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:16 PM
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It might not satisfy vengeance fantasies of angry ex-teachers in the way that imagining beating children with sticks would, but it'd got a damn sight further in actually fixing the very real problem.

Teachers love to bitch--and for some reason, when you are a teacher, non-teachers are endlessly fascinated by stories of horrible children. I don't know why, but so many people seem to find comfort in lurid tales of Kids These Days. So you get in this terrible feedback cycle where you get all this positive reinforcement for your ranty, hyperbolic stories which non-teachers then use to speak authoritatively about what it's like in schools these days.
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Old 05-28-2019, 10:36 PM
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Not to be nit-picky, but this has been driving me nuts. The capital of Nigeria is Lagos, not Legos. It's a huge city with a population of around 17 million people, none of whom live in buildings made of interlocking plastic bricks.

Carry on.
Nigeria's capitol has been Abuja since 1991.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuja

Let's return to our regularly scheduled programming.
  #79  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:14 AM
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Just in some cases. Kids who need more discipline than the usual population. You know, the Nigerians.
Why he'd want these kids beaten is beyond me...
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Old 05-29-2019, 06:18 AM
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Uh-oh, nelliebly got the city wrong. That's a stick-chasing.
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  #81  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:59 AM
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Ima stop you right there. No I haven't, and no you haven't. If you think you have, then all I can guarantee is that your students have been in a classroom with an unfit teacher.
No, their were plenty of good teachers. However the school was a total zoo. For example, look at this video of how even an award winning teacher at a school in Green Bay resigned out of protest. It was the only way the disitrct would deal with the problems.
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They aren't bad kids.
Well, yes. They are some bad kids. And there are also good kids. Thing is the bad ones are allowed to roam the halls and cause too many problems. Also the kids in between see the bad kids as leaders and follow them
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Look, we're talking about people too young to make decisions well. We don't allow them to vote, or to join the military, or to sign contracts, or to drink, because we recognize that they're not fully responsible for their behavior. It's incumbent on the adults around them to provide them a context in which they learn how to make good decisions.
They are old enough to know they are supposed to go to school to LEARN and not just cause trouble, roam the halls, fight teachers, start fires, destroy property, open supposedly secured doors and allow others inside the building, and cause general mayhem.
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AND BEATING THEM WITH STICKS IS NOT THAT GD CONTEXT.
I agree, that was too far but that was the 3rd world. Glad to see order was restored.
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Yes, we need to do something radical. Fortunately, we know some things we can do:

1) Make it practically harder for them to access guns, through appropriate firearms legislation.
2) Address the kinds of structural inequalities that incentivize violent crime.
3) Address ACES, specifically the trauma that comes from living in a high-violence context.
Those are issues for society in general. I have seen perfectly fine schools even in the worse neighborhoods.
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This last one is going to involve school measures (adequately staffing social workers, counselors, and psychologists) and community measures (similar to step 2).
I agree we do not put enough resources into fixing the worse schools. IMO we should pay the teachers extra, pay for more of them so smaller classroom sizes, hire more security, have strict discipline policies in place including kicking out the worse ones, and working with groups in the community to reach out to address social needs. HERE is an article about changes made to the middle school mentioned above. Thing is it shouldnt take a dramatic seen of an award winning teacher resigning in such a public way to force a school district to make changes and improve a school.
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It might not satisfy vengeance fantasies of angry ex-teachers in the way that imagining beating children with sticks would, but it'd got a damn sight further in actually fixing the very real problem.
I think most teachers are good people and would be satisfied if just the above measures were taken.
  #82  
Old 05-29-2019, 07:40 AM
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I agree with other posts that the general idea of the military being given totally non-military tasks, presumably because it's generally rated the most highly respected US institution, seldom if ever makes any sense taken literally. That's even before examining why and by whom the military is so highly respected as institution. Ie, not by everybody, and moreover partly just in comparison to distressingly low confidence by Americans in most other public institutions.
Right. Not only can the military be as bureaucratic and red-tapey as any civilian entity when it comes to the administrative side, but the part at which they excel and for which they are so respected is a function of their mission focus. The military's function and skillset is and has to remain being an effective fighting and deterrent force. Turning it into a generic Department of Making People Follow Orders to get any public function done by command when it fails to get done through normal channels (and you KNOW people would not stop at schools) would badly degrade its core mission.



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Federalizing primary/secondary education would be a poster child for that IMO even under the unlikely assumption it could gain approval in Congress during some short swing of the political pendulum to an extreme of federalized solutions.
Yeah, that's the other part -- think what woudl be the general reaction if instead of the military the proposal were the US Department of Education taking over all the schools.

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  #83  
Old 05-29-2019, 07:45 AM
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Nigeria's capitol has been Abuja since 1991.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuja

Let's return to our regularly scheduled programming.
And as long as we're nitpicking, Abuja is the capital of Nigeria, not the "capitol." Gaudere's Law strikes again.
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  #84  
Old 05-29-2019, 08:03 AM
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I agree, that was too far but that was the 3rd world.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:41 AM
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Why he'd want these kids beaten is beyond me...
Those are the good ones.

URN, these kids don't need more discipline. They need adequate food, a safe living environment, a sense of security about their future, a standard of living that includes some luxuries, protection from adult predators, a default attitude of respect from authorities. acknowledgement that they have been through real traumas that need to be addressed, teachers who believe they are perfectly capable and can learn, a clean and comfortable learning environment and real reason to believe that their actions will make a meaningful difference in the future.

I am an award winning teacher, too.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:43 AM
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You think 20% of Americans are fundamentally unsuited to life in society? 1 in 5?
"Unsuited" is a subjective term open to interpretation. I am saying that they are basically uneducated, without specialized skills of any kind, and often very undisciplined in terms of being team players and working towards specific goals.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:24 AM
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"Unsuited" is a subjective term open to interpretation. I am saying that they are basically uneducated, without specialized skills of any kind, and often very undisciplined in terms of being team players and working towards specific goals.
To the point that they would not be much different had they been unschooled? Because there may be 20% of the population that aren't rocket scientists, but I think they are a lot more capable and socialized because they had some schooling. I think society would be really different if 20% of our population were literally unschooled.
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:50 AM
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Just in some cases. Kids who need more discipline than the usual population. You know, the Nigerians.



And when 20$ of the population is illierate, unsocialized, unsuited to even menial employment, what do we do then?

9/10, the highly disruptive kid is a perfectly normal kid put in an environment beyond his ability to handle. He's being abused. He's hungry. He doesn't think he's going to live to be 18. He believes he is so worthless, all this is worthless, that there's no point. He's been through some terrifying shit and all-over anger has destroyed his ability to be rational and he's lashing out.

But it's easier to blame him for the problems the other kids are having than to recognize that, 9/10, he's the worst victim of the problems of society, not the cause.

And I say this as a nearly 20 year veteran of one of the largest, poorest school districts in the country.


Aren't we pretty much there now?
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:12 AM
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Nope. I recall teachers who were in the military and no, we did not prefer them. A school is not the military and should not be taught as if it is.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:44 AM
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Not to be nit-picky, but this has been driving me nuts. The capital of Nigeria is Lagos, not Legos.
I thought the word was Logos.
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Old 05-29-2019, 11:47 AM
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Aren't we pretty much there now?
Right now the US has an 86% literacy rate. If we denied "bad" children the right to go to school, that would drop even lower.

I feel like the claim that 20% of kids are currently learning nothing in school is extraordinary and needs to be supported by those who are making it.
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Old 05-29-2019, 12:56 PM
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Right now the US has an 86% literacy rate. If we denied "bad" children the right to go to school, that would drop even lower.

I feel like the claim that 20% of kids are currently learning nothing in school is extraordinary and needs to be supported by those who are making it.
Ok, so uh 14% isn't all that far from 20%. Right?
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:15 PM
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Ok, so uh 14% isn't all that far from 20%. Right?
Why do you think that the 20% of kids that would be kicked out would be the 14% that are illiterate now?

Seriously. Do you think 20% of the population learned nothing in school? 1 in 5?
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:16 PM
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The 14% called "illiterate" includes people for whom English is not a first language and who might not even have gone to school in the United States. It is also a standard that usually sets the bar at around eighth grade reading levels, not total illiteracy.
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Old 05-29-2019, 01:22 PM
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Those are the good ones.

URN, these kids don't need more discipline. They need adequate food, a safe living environment, a sense of security about their future, a standard of living that includes some luxuries, protection from adult predators, a default attitude of respect from authorities. acknowledgement that they have been through real traumas that need to be addressed, teachers who believe they are perfectly capable and can learn, a clean and comfortable learning environment and real reason to believe that their actions will make a meaningful difference in the future.

I am an award winning teacher, too.
But, but, I like hittin 'em.

That's what they "deserve", right, because they are not good students. It's not really about helping them, it's about shutting them up, out of sight out of mind.

These 20% are not the ones that need our contempt and the back of our hand, these 20% are the ones that need compassion and a hand up.
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:04 PM
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Why do you think that the 20% of kids that would be kicked out would be the 14% that are illiterate now?

Seriously. Do you think 20% of the population learned nothing in school? 1 in 5?
No, I think that of the 14% illiterate are part and parcel of those already not graduating high school. Now, if we allow the others to 'not go' or kick them out because they don't want to be there, we garner another 6%
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Old 05-29-2019, 02:05 PM
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But, but, I like hittin 'em.

That's what they "deserve", right, because they are not good students. It's not really about helping them, it's about shutting them up, out of sight out of mind.

These 20% are not the ones that need our contempt and the back of our hand, these 20% are the ones that need compassion and a hand up.
The 20% is actually far more likelier to need a home presence. Parents whom care. Monetary considerations not aside, some parents whom may care don't have the time to care.
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:10 PM
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The 20% is actually far more likelier to need a home presence. Parents whom care. Monetary considerations not aside, some parents whom may care don't have the time to care.
Right, and that goes far beyond what can be considered to be school related policies. But, as a I said, they need compassion and care. I have some ideas on how to try to reach out to them and assist them to be integrated members of society, but most of them would require resources and community involvement, so they are pretty much non-starters.
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Old 05-29-2019, 03:47 PM
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No, their were plenty of good teachers.
Nobody who believes their students are bad kids belongs in a classroom. Full stop.
  #100  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:17 PM
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Ok, so uh 14% isn't all that far from 20%. Right?
I dunno, I failed math.
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