Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:36 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 25,947
Cleveland Jr. Naval Academy High School in St. Louis is a public magnet school, with a suitably military code of honor.

From what I can tell, its academic record is unremarkable, even among the other schools operated by the St. Louis City School District.
  #102  
Old 05-30-2019, 12:01 AM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 12,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
No, I think that of the 14% illiterate are part and parcel of those already not graduating high school. Now, if we allow the others to 'not go' or kick them out because they don't want to be there, we garner another 6%
Not a small number of that 14% would also just plain old not have the intellect to read at an 8th grade level, no matter what school they attended.
  #103  
Old 05-30-2019, 10:42 AM
zoid's Avatar
zoid is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago Il
Posts: 10,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
Not a small number of that 14% would also just plain old not have the intellect to read at an 8th grade level, no matter what school they attended.
So you're saying that something like 10% will never read at an 8th grade level no matter what? That seems pretty pessimistic.
  #104  
Old 05-30-2019, 11:37 AM
k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoid View Post
So you're saying that something like 10% will never read at an 8th grade level no matter what? That seems pretty pessimistic.
I see stats I see are closer to 1-3% of people have mental disabilities. Or 7% is the total mental disability.

Hard to find a good cite. But not all of those with these mental disabilities are also illiterate.

At a ballpark guess based on this light research, probably somewhere between 3-5% will never be able to read at an 8th grade level.
  #105  
Old 05-30-2019, 12:01 PM
Chimera is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In the Dreaming
Posts: 24,437
Well, approximately 16% of the population do have IQs below 85.
  #106  
Old 05-30-2019, 12:46 PM
Slow Moving Vehicle's Avatar
Slow Moving Vehicle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 3,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I know who you are talking about! He came to Dallas next. Was a disaster.

Also, honestly, not at all like the real military. Actual military people don't cultivate a culture of fear.
Yes. One of the best teachers in my high school was a retired Marine drill instructor who taught civics and current events. He was tough enough to maintain order in his classroom, and he took no crap; but he was also able to engage with us, and get us fired up about what he was teaching us. He was a conservative Republican, usually teaching a bunch of liberal teenagers; his current events classes were often debates about social issues, during which he was sneakily teaching us about logical thinking, citing sources, and molding our opinions to the facts. Great teacher and a good man.

But the fact that this Marine DI was a great teacher does not prove that all Marine DIs would be great teachers.
__________________
“It may help to understand human affairs to be clear that most of the great triumphs and tragedies of history are caused, not by people being fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but by people being fundamentally people.”
― Neil Gaiman, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch

Last edited by Slow Moving Vehicle; 05-30-2019 at 12:47 PM.
  #107  
Old 05-30-2019, 02:29 PM
k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slow Moving Vehicle View Post
Yes. One of the best teachers in my high school was a retired Marine drill instructor who taught civics and current events. He was tough enough to maintain order in his classroom, and he took no crap; but he was also able to engage with us, and get us fired up about what he was teaching us. He was a conservative Republican, usually teaching a bunch of liberal teenagers; his current events classes were often debates about social issues, during which he was sneakily teaching us about logical thinking, citing sources, and molding our opinions to the facts. Great teacher and a good man.

But the fact that this Marine DI was a great teacher does not prove that all Marine DIs would be great teachers.
Odd, we had the opposite for our history/civics teacher. He was a far left liberal vietnam vet teaching a bunch of conservatives.
  #108  
Old 05-30-2019, 03:43 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 40,800
There's an enormous difference between these two proposals:

1) Vets who complete a teaching certification program should be able to become teachers; and
2) Our schools should be managed and taught by the military.

It's so different that I think anecdotes about individual vets who became teachers are a little off-course. On the other hand, the OP is so clearly a ridiculous nonstarter of an idea that maybe hijacking the thread into IMHO "tell us about your great military veteran teachers" is a fine new direction for the thread .
  #109  
Old 05-30-2019, 03:56 PM
TimfromNapa is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 111
Boy, the idea of the military taking over our schools makes me think of Tom Paxton's song (popularized by Pete Seeger),"What did you learn in school today?". It is well worth checking out the lyrics.
  #110  
Old 05-30-2019, 04:50 PM
k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
There's an enormous difference between these two proposals:

1) Vets who complete a teaching certification program should be able to become teachers; and
Which I think most of us would agree.
Quote:

2) Our schools should be managed and taught by the military.
Which I hope most of us feel is not a good idea.
Quote:
It's so different that I think anecdotes about individual vets who became teachers are a little off-course. On the other hand, the OP is so clearly a ridiculous nonstarter of an idea that maybe hijacking the thread into IMHO "tell us about your great military veteran teachers" is a fine new direction for the thread .
Okay.

Some days, my history/civics teacher (it was a big school, but I had him for two different classes over 2 years) would just turn off the lights light some candles, and put on a Doors album. The rumor was that he was spotted smoking weed at some parties, but I never got invited to those sorts of parties, so cannot confirm.

He was actually a great teacher, even if most of the conservative students really hated him. I was never comfortable with the conservative ideology I grew up with, and he was probably the first figure in authority that challenged those notions.

He never talked about his time in the service, no idea whether he was ever even out of the country for it, but he did talk around it enough to get the impression that he really didn't like what happened in that war he was drafted into.
  #111  
Old 05-30-2019, 04:51 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 12,581
There are also people with undiagnosed ADHD and/or dyslexia who would count in that 14%.
  #112  
Old 06-04-2019, 02:55 PM
richw211 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 36
(Please forgive me if someone else has raised these questions.)

I agree that schools need reform, but the military solution is ridiculous. After reading chaidragonfire's opening post, I'd be very curious to know what his actual experience is, if any, with military schools/training programs. I have been through lengthy military technical training and the following items in the post seem particularly silly to me:

- "Teachers would be thoroughly vetted..." Let's hope so. I ran into so many seriously sick S.O.B.s in the military (pedophiles, porn fanatics, etc.).

- "School administrators and principles would have the means and training to properly administer discipline, which wouldn't be a much of a problem with MILITARY GRADE trained teachers in charge." Isn't military grade often used to mean ludicrously expensive for its worth?

- "All kids would get decent food..." Training commands had THE worst food.

- "Kids will be taught... ...manners, etiquette..." They may be taught, but will they perform when outside of school?

- "NO bullies." Wow, I don't know where to start with this one.

- "All kids get treated equally, no special treatment." Sooooo much brown nosing.

- "Knowledge comes first, before anything, especially sports." Huh?

Please note that the comments above are intended to apply only to a small portion of the folks I interacted with in the military. I guess the parting point is that the military includes a wide cross-section of society and I would expect a military school to be same.
  #113  
Old 06-14-2019, 01:22 PM
paulmarkj is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 50
"Schools stripped of their power to manage and discipline their own schools."

Untrue. Behaviour is managed through strategies that teacher are trained in. These strategies work. The military would not understand how to properly and fruitfully manage behaviour.

In my experience, ex-military THINK they can teach because all it requires is their 'discipline' through strength. They soon realise that to engage and for pupils to learn, force is not the answer.

"Kids will be taught discipline, self-control, manners, etiquette, and taught about actual real life"

if you think those can be in any way forced into children by use of force and/or fear, you are badly mistaken.

"I've had ex-military teachers when I was in high school, and believe it or not all the kids preferred these teachers to all the others"

I have known ex-military in schools and they usually fail.

"Without control and discipline, you have anarchy and destruction. Which is what this country has today."

Wrong. it is perfectly possible for pupils to learn self control and behaviour in other caring ways.

How do I know? 20 years experience working as a teacher with children with severe behaviour problems. When all the schools can no longer cope, they come to us. Most pupils turn their behaviour around in a few weeks.

Boundaries.
Respect.
Engagement.
Rewards.

These basics almost always work and when they don't it is because of deep seated emotional problems.

I could give you case study after case study, video after video of the change in pupils in just a few weeks.
  #114  
Old 06-14-2019, 01:50 PM
Hampshire is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 10,979
The rhetoric put forth by the OP sounds like someone who has never set step in a public school nor ever been around the military. Everything is stereotypical nonsense at both extremes pulled from a Yahoo article comments section. The public school system is not in shambles and the military is from being some kind of well oiled machine.
Both have their successes and their shortcomings and I'd recon both probably run at the same efficiency.
Get a grip on reality before putting out some knee-jerk solution based on extreme anecdotes.
  #115  
Old 06-14-2019, 02:40 PM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 17,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hampshire View Post
The public school system is not in shambles and the military is [far] from being some kind of well oiled machine.

OTOH, put Marines in charge of preschools and kindergartens and they'll never run out of crayons to eat. It's win-win !
__________________
--- ---
I'm not sure how to respond to this, but that's never stopped me before.
  #116  
Old 06-14-2019, 04:44 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 12,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmarkj View Post
"Schools stripped of their power to manage and discipline their own schools."

Untrue. Behaviour is managed through strategies that teacher are trained in. These strategies work. The military would not understand how to properly and fruitfully manage behaviour.

In my experience, ex-military THINK they can teach because all it requires is their 'discipline' through strength. They soon realise that to engage and for pupils to learn, force is not the answer.

"Kids will be taught discipline, self-control, manners, etiquette, and taught about actual real life"

if you think those can be in any way forced into children by use of force and/or fear, you are badly mistaken.

"I've had ex-military teachers when I was in high school, and believe it or not all the kids preferred these teachers to all the others"

I have known ex-military in schools and they usually fail.

"Without control and discipline, you have anarchy and destruction. Which is what this country has today."

Wrong. it is perfectly possible for pupils to learn self control and behaviour in other caring ways.

How do I know? 20 years experience working as a teacher with children with severe behaviour problems. When all the schools can no longer cope, they come to us. Most pupils turn their behaviour around in a few weeks.

Boundaries.
Respect.
Engagement.
Rewards.

These basics almost always work and when they don't it is because of deep seated emotional problems.

I could give you case study after case study, video after video of the change in pupils in just a few weeks.
Every time a news story shows up on social media about discipline problems in schools, local or otherwise, the "it's because we can't discipline our kids" people come out of the woodwork. The people who are afraid to set limits on their kids because they say they fear CPS usually have other reasons to legitimately fear CPS.

Just a few days ago, a poster said she was at the grocery store, and a toddler sat down in the parking lot. A man that she assumed was the child's father picked him up and guided him to the car. She said, "I would have given that kid a good spanking!" and I replied, "Then why didn't you? Used to be, it was acceptable to do that in some places." Yes, really. Strangers hitting your kid - NIIIIICE.

Yes, you can discipline your kids. You just can't abuse or torture them in its name, and there's no one-size-fits-all when in comes to discipline - or education, for that matter.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017