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  #51  
Old 06-01-2019, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Miskatonic View Post
Gods, it’s like those hilarious throwaway lines from the OSI in The Venture Brothers: “You’ll be vanquishing enemies for the organization that’s been defending the us since the 2nd American Revolution! The Invisible one!”

“Don’t tell Secret President about my condition!”
Except they do it only benefit themselves, not for the betterment or protection of society.
  #52  
Old 06-01-2019, 02:58 PM
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And they make a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor.
OK, I have heard that quotation somewhere before, please, before I go nuts, tell me where.
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  #53  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:02 PM
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OK, I have heard that quotation somewhere before, please, before I go nuts, tell me where.
G'kar from Babylon 5

http://www.tv-quotes.com/shows/babyl...ote_16933.html

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By G'Quan, I can't recall the last time I was in a fight like that! No moral ambiguity, no hopeless battle against ancient and overwhelming forces! They were the bad guys, as you say, and we were the good guys. And they made a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor.

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  #54  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:04 PM
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Of course! Now I remember, I loved Michael York as Arthur. I need to get the Dvd out and watch that episode again.

Thanks!
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  #55  
Old 06-01-2019, 03:07 PM
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I think it is all a conspiracy of the auto glass companies.

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  #56  
Old 06-01-2019, 04:20 PM
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Sovereign Citizens are far less intelligent than the average person. Average people can recognize reality and deal with it. Sovereign Citizens are unable to handle something that basic. When you start thinking the world of ideas is somehow more real than the world you live in, you're not living intelligently.

If you're running as fast as you can with your eyes closed and you're in a forest, you're going to run into a tree very soon. If you're running as fast as you can with your eyes closed and you're in a field, you might be able to run along for some time without hitting something. But either way, you're still running with your eyes closed and that's a dumb way to travel. Smart people open their eyes and steer around the obstacles rather than imagine they can run through them. Only idiots think they can run in any direction as long as they refuse to admit obstacles exist.
You are not understanding why the sovcits do what they do. They mostly believe they are engaging in civil disobedience. Some may believe they have uncovered something magical, but I’m sure that is the minority. They get a rush from bucking the system. Intelligence is neither here nor there.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:12 PM
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You are not understanding why the sovcits do what they do. They mostly believe they are engaging in civil disobedience. Some may believe they have uncovered something magical, but I’m sure that is the minority. They get a rush from bucking the system. Intelligence is neither here nor there.
I have found most of them to be mean-spirited shitheads looking for a way to cheat the system, and most of them are stupid enough to believe anybody that tells them what they want to hear.
  #58  
Old 06-01-2019, 05:33 PM
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There was an incident involving Sovereign Citizens the next county over from me in 2003--the younger officer killed was a high-school friend of one of my college friends.
  #59  
Old 06-01-2019, 05:39 PM
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Thanks for ruining the rest of my night, I have no choice except to watch all these morons on YouTube!
same for me.
  #60  
Old 06-01-2019, 05:56 PM
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That may be the case, but I'm guessing a good chunk of what they say isn't in the original draft either. In fact, if you dig up a 200+ year old document, I think we can all be sure that it doesn't give anyone the right to drive a car.
You didn't watch enough of the videos, none of them are driving a car or operating a motor vehicle, they are all "traveling"
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:17 PM
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As I understand it, the "travelling/driving" distinction hinges on one edition of Black's Law Dictionary that used the word "employ" in its definition of "driver".

I have to figure along similar lines there's some legal style guide out there that suggests legal persons (i.e. corporations, foundations, etc.) should have their names written IN CAPITAL LETTERS to try to distinguish them from natural persons (i.e. human beings), and this is the source of all the sovcit uppercase/lowercase bullshit, in which they assume that if their names are written in capitals then by definition the document cannot refer to them but some fictional version of them, and let the fictional version pay the fine or the civil judgement or child support or whatever.
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  #62  
Old 06-01-2019, 06:44 PM
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You are not understanding why the sovcits do what they do. They mostly believe they are engaging in civil disobedience.
I absolutely do understand why most of them do what they do, and it has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Most SovCits are deadbeats and low level lawbreakers who are grasping onto the sovereign citizen straw as a way of trying to avoid their petty troubles.
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  #63  
Old 06-01-2019, 07:17 PM
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I saw this one recently, who has an incredibly patient boyfriend, but I wonder if she does for long.
That was really painful to watch. I feel sorry for all involved. Even the girl. She obviously was terrified out of her mind that the police were going to carry her off to some black site never to be heard from again.
  #64  
Old 06-01-2019, 07:28 PM
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You are not understanding why the sovcits do what they do. They mostly believe they are engaging in civil disobedience. Some may believe they have uncovered something magical, but I’m sure that is the minority. They get a rush from bucking the system. Intelligence is neither here nor there.
I'm sure sovereign citizens believe they're bucking the system. But they're not. The "successful" ones are the ones who manage to avoid the system. In any encounter with the system, sovereign citizens lose and the system wins.
  #65  
Old 06-01-2019, 08:49 PM
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I absolutely do understand why most of them do what they do, and it has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Most SovCits are deadbeats and low level lawbreakers who are grasping onto the sovereign citizen straw as a way of trying to avoid their petty troubles.
In fact, it is the exact definitional opposite of civil disobedience.

People engaging in civil disobedience know they are breaking what they consider to be an unjust law and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions.

Sovereign citizens don't believe in laws or the legitimacy of governments and believe their magic sayings will protect them from any consequences.

There may not be two more dissimilar systems of thought in the universe.
  #66  
Old 06-02-2019, 12:13 AM
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The problem is that they do not believe the constitution is valid. That at the time of the civil war the Constitution of "These United States" was replaced with a forgery for "The United States".
Expanding on this--
Possibly the most bizarre part of the whole bizarre thing is that many of them treat the Uniform Commercial Code as if it were the Constitution.

Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPRno-ld8k8
  #67  
Old 06-02-2019, 12:43 AM
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Look, they're dumb. Like really really dumb. The 16% of the population with IQs between 55 and 85 dumb.

They have a fundamentally distorted and stupid-fied idea of how the Government and the world work that is based in part on how movies portray the world with secret societies and government agencies and fringe conspiracy theories.

They also don't fundamentally grasp The Law and/or how Language works, because they have this teaching that if you say the right magic words, the right phrase, notice the same semi-common courtroom features, write the correct public notices, then you magically don't have to do anything that court or the police tell you to do. You're Sovereign over yourself, a free person.

What do they get? In on "the secret". Power over their lives when they otherwise felt completely powerless due to the government conspiracies they believe. They get to be The Special People The Government Can't Touch.
  #68  
Old 06-02-2019, 01:10 AM
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Look, they're dumb. Like really really dumb. The 16% of the population with IQs between 55 and 85 dumb.
I wish anti-vaxxers, creationist, moon hoaxers, birthers, and sovereign citizens were stupid but I don't believe that's the case. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to construct that fundamentally distorted idea of how the world works. I honestly don't believe a stupid person could come up with the Redemption Movement, come up with reasons why the 14th Amendment isn't valid, the idea of fictitious persons versus sovereign persons, file false liens, or commit insurance fraud to the tune of millions of dollars. They might be delusional but they're not stupid. They'd be a lot easier to deal with if they were dumb.
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  #69  
Old 06-02-2019, 01:39 AM
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I wish anti-vaxxers, creationist, moon hoaxers, birthers, and sovereign citizens were stupid but I don't believe that's the case. It takes a certain amount of intelligence to construct that fundamentally distorted idea of how the world works. I honestly don't believe a stupid person could come up with the Redemption Movement, come up with reasons why the 14th Amendment isn't valid, the idea of fictitious persons versus sovereign persons, file false liens, or commit insurance fraud to the tune of millions of dollars. They might be delusional but they're not stupid. They'd be a lot easier to deal with if they were dumb.
Most of these people don't come up with their own ideas. They just adopt crazy ideas that other people came up with. And when you consider some of these people are willing to pay for crazy ideas, you have to suspect that many of the people who came up with them don't believe the ideas they're selling.
  #70  
Old 06-02-2019, 03:29 AM
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As I understand it, the "travelling/driving" distinction hinges on one edition of Black's Law Dictionary that used the word "employ" in its definition of "driver".
Black's, yes, but the FOTL/SovCit distinction is between the 2nd and 6th editions. Note that there really is no distinction, but even among FOTLs/SovCits, I've noticed dissent as to which edition is legally correct.

Surprise, FOTL/SovCits! Any edition of Black's is not legally-correct in the sense that it is accepted as good law anywhere in the common law world. It is only a dictionary, and no more useful in the courtroom than Merriam-Webster or the Oxford English Dictionary would be.

What do FOTLs/SovCits get out of all their nonsense? The opportunity to pay hundreds, or maybe thousands, to an OPCA guru, who gladly pockets their money; while they ineffectually cite Magna Carta to a cop at a traffic stop. Et cetera.
  #71  
Old 06-02-2019, 04:42 AM
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Most of these people don't come up with their own ideas. They just adopt crazy ideas that other people came up with. And when you consider some of these people are willing to pay for crazy ideas, you have to suspect that many of the people who came up with them don't believe the ideas they're selling.
Most of them have room-temperature IQs, but the gurus are the ones selling the stuff, not the ones buying it, and the gurus are the only ones who have to make stuff up.

Now, for the kicker: At least some gurus get high on their own supply! Look at Winston Shrout, for example:
Quote:
Federal prosecutors in Portland, Oregon, obtained a 19-count grand jury indictment in mid-March against Winston Shrout, a Hillsboro, Oregon, resident and one of the most prominent sovereign citizen gurus in the United States, a man whose videos and seminars have attracted thousands of people to the anti-government extremist movement.

Shrout was charged with 13 counts of using fictitious financial instruments in connection with an alleged debt elimination scheme. Fictitious financial instruments are bogus checks, money orders, or similar documents that purport to be payments of money but are not in fact genuine. Since the early 1980s, sovereign citizens have been fascinated with fictitious financial instruments, using them for everything from escaping their own debts to perpetrating major frauds and scams, especially against indebted property owners. Passing them became a federal crime thanks to a law passed after the 1996 Montana Freemen standoff; the Freemen having been energetic promoters of such bogus instruments.

[snip]

The federal indictment accuses Shrout of creating and spreading more than 300 bogus “International Bills of Exchange” and “Non-Negotiable Bills of Exchange,” instruments with a combined face value of over $100 trillion (but worthless in fact). The indictment claims that Shrout used such instruments himself and also marketed them as a way for others to pay off their debts. Shrout is also charged with 6 counts of willful failure to file income tax returns.
Shrout sold the ideology and practiced it. I don't know if he came up with anything original, but some of the scammers are just as dumb as their marks, at least when it comes to dealing with the government.
  #72  
Old 06-02-2019, 05:47 AM
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Meanwhile, a bit of courtroom entertainment on this side of the water
  #73  
Old 06-02-2019, 07:29 AM
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They don't get shit out of it except some more usernames and passwords.
  #74  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:16 AM
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They get no respect from the world, but as a sovcit they (imagine) they are garnering the respect of their fellow disaffected, fringe dwellers.
  #75  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:16 AM
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I'll add this from Broward County, FL.

By the way, there are several videos of Judge Hurley's courtroom on Youtube, all worth a look!

Edit: Fun starts at 2:20

Last edited by txjim; 06-02-2019 at 09:17 AM. Reason: clarification
  #76  
Old 06-02-2019, 09:56 AM
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We have a lot of these nutballs in my area. Of course, this region seems to draw all sorts of semi-related nutballs. We have the moronic Redoubt movement folks. We have a resurgence of white supremecy (this is the heart of what was Aryan Nations). We have folks that defend the moronic Bundy escapades. Hell, in Spokane Valley they even have a state elected Rep that supports pretty much all of this (he went to Malheur) and is leading the charge to form a new state named Liberty, which will become a white utopia (look up Matt Shea if you want to learn more). Lifted pickup trucks with huge Gadsden, rebel and US flags flying from the bed are common.

I don't know what they get out of it. I think they all live in this odd fantasy world where stockpiling 50K 223 rounds wins you an entry into white heaven.
  #77  
Old 06-02-2019, 10:19 AM
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Look, they're dumb. Like really really dumb. The 16% of the population with IQs between 55 and 85 dumb.
No, you are wrong. There is no evidence what you are saying is true.

The capacity of people, even very intelligent people, to believe in nonsense and lunacy is truly limitless. You can take any stupidity and you will find that people with perfectly normal, even above average IQs are taken in by it. Pyramid schemes? Anti-vaxx nonsense? Nigerian email scams? People with graduate degrees fall for all that shit.
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  #78  
Old 06-02-2019, 03:55 PM
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they also claim something about a US flag with the gold fringe on it . Either the fringe means it's not a legit flag or it is legit , cannot recall which one.
  #79  
Old 06-02-2019, 04:59 PM
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No, you are wrong. There is no evidence what you are saying is true.

The capacity of people, even very intelligent people, to believe in nonsense and lunacy is truly limitless. You can take any stupidity and you will find that people with perfectly normal, even above average IQs are taken in by it. Pyramid schemes? Anti-vaxx nonsense? Nigerian email scams? People with graduate degrees fall for all that shit.
Smart people buy lottery tickets too. But they aren't at the level of idiocy that sovcits are.
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  #80  
Old 06-02-2019, 05:55 PM
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I mentioned this thread and was informed there are German sort-of SCs who believe the Weimar Republic never actually ended or something: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reic...BCrgerbewegung

That article is

Last edited by Ruken; 06-02-2019 at 05:55 PM.
  #81  
Old 06-03-2019, 07:56 AM
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Smart people buy lottery tickets too. But they aren't at the level of idiocy that sovcits are.
Lottery tickets are entertainment, and don't demonstrate evidence of stupidity. I'm sure some people buy them as retirement plans out of stupidity, but a normal middle class person buying a lotto ticket for fun isn't acting stupidly any more than is a person buying a ticket to see a movie.

Smart people can believe idiotic things. Characterizing sovereign citizens as "just stupid" isn't QUITE as wrong as WillFarnaby's bizarre claim that they're engaged in civil disobedience, but it's not far off. Belief in conspiracy theories does not generally spring from stupidity, it springs from some emotional need.
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  #82  
Old 06-03-2019, 08:33 AM
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I absolutely do understand why most of them do what they do, and it has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Most SovCits are deadbeats and low level lawbreakers who are grasping onto the sovereign citizen straw as a way of trying to avoid their petty troubles.
Ok you are in a position to read the minds of the Sovcits. I am not, but I see what they communicate as their motivations.

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I have found most of them to be mean-spirited shitheads looking for a way to cheat the system, and most of them are stupid enough to believe anybody that tells them what they want to hear.
Ok but understand that members of some ideologies have the same view of adherents to liberal statist ideologies. Perhaps a bias is at play.

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In fact, it is the exact definitional opposite of civil disobedience.

People engaging in civil disobedience know they are breaking what they consider to be an unjust law and are willing to accept the consequences of their actions.

Sovereign citizens don't believe in laws or the legitimacy of governments and believe their magic sayings will protect them from any consequences.

There may not be two more dissimilar systems of thought in the universe.
Perhaps you also misunderstand the motivations of the SovCits. If they wanted to evade responsibility and live a comfortable life they could go on the dole or get a government job. That is how you evade consequences in modern US society. This doesn’t appeal to them for whatever reason.

Many are silly, but many are engaging in civil disobedience. You just have a problem with the term “civil disobedience” being applied to people you don’t like.
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:59 AM
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Ok but understand that members of some ideologies have the same view of adherents to liberal statist ideologies. Perhaps a bias is at play.
And yet another irony meter breaks down. I'm going to have to buy these by the case.
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:59 AM
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Lottery tickets are entertainment, and don't demonstrate evidence of stupidity. I'm sure some people buy them as retirement plans out of stupidity, but a normal middle class person buying a lotto ticket for fun isn't acting stupidly any more than is a person buying a ticket to see a movie.
You gotta diversify your portfolio, so buy both PowerBall *and* MegaMillions.

But yeah, I see them as entertainment. When the lotto gets real high, I sometimes expend $2 to be able to have a fantasy. Cheaper than movie tickets, and lasts longer than Endgame.
Quote:
Smart people can believe idiotic things. Characterizing sovereign citizens as "just stupid" isn't QUITE as wrong as WillFarnaby's bizarre claim that they're engaged in civil disobedience, but it's not far off. Belief in conspiracy theories does not generally spring from stupidity, it springs from some emotional need.
There is absolutely something not quite right in the head with them, and it is possible that many of them are dumb and duped. But there are most certainly some very smart people who buy into this delusion.

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Ok you are in a position to read the minds of the Sovcits. I am not, but I see what they communicate as their motivations.
As my brother is a sovcit, I am in a position to judge their motives (even though I don't see him often anymore, with his being in jail anytime he stays in one place long enough to annoy LEO). It has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is when you feel a law is unjust, and you break that law with the specific purpose of getting to play the martyr card, and use that sympathy to get the law changed for the betterment of society.

That's not what they do, they don't want the laws improved for us "useful idiots", they want the laws to not apply to them.
Quote:

Ok but understand that members of some ideologies have the same view of adherents to liberal statist ideologies. Perhaps a bias is at play.
No, they literally think that by writing "accepted 4 value" on a receipt means that the bill is paid for by their secret bank account in Fort Knox. That's not bias, that's delusion.
Quote:


Perhaps you also misunderstand the motivations of the SovCits. If they wanted to evade responsibility and live a comfortable life they could go on the dole
Quite a number of them do get govt benefits.
Quote:
or get a government job.
No, they don't want a boss or any responsibility.
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That is how you evade consequences in modern US society. This doesn’t appeal to them for whatever reason.
Which is why they don't pay taxes, get a driver's licences, register their car, pay their child support?
Quote:
Many are silly, but many are engaging in civil disobedience. You just have a problem with the term “civil disobedience” being applied to people you don’t like.
Sure, they have different motivations and methods, just like you cannot generalize all bigots into having the same motive for their hate, or the same way of expressing it, SovCits have different reasons for wishing that they have no responsibilities to their community, and different ways of trying to evade it.

The one thing that they have in common though, is that they do not believe that laws apply to *them*. They are not trying to create some revolution, they are not trying to free the rest of us sheeple, they are just trying to scam the system into granting *them* a favored status over the rest of us.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 06-03-2019 at 10:01 AM.
  #85  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:42 AM
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I worked with a guy, maybe 20 years ago now, that was one of these. He didn't pay taxes. On his paperwork in HR he claimed a TON of dependents or something similar, so they withheld very little from his pay. Then, at the end of the year (watch this kids! you won't be disappointed!) he would file a 1040 that was blank except for his signature at the bottom. His thinking (and I'm SURE he didn't come up with this on his own) was that you 1) Have to file a tax form, and 2) can't lie on the tax form, so he had found the "One secret loophole the IRS doesn't want you to know about". He should have filed an ID10T, instead.
  #86  
Old 06-03-2019, 11:14 AM
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You gotta diversify your portfolio, so buy both PowerBall *and* MegaMillions.

But yeah, I see them as entertainment. When the lotto gets real high, I sometimes expend $2 to be able to have a fantasy. Cheaper than movie tickets, and lasts longer than Endgame.


There is absolutely something not quite right in the head with them, and it is possible that many of them are dumb and duped. But there are most certainly some very smart people who buy into this delusion.


As my brother is a sovcit, I am in a position to judge their motives (even though I don't see him often anymore, with his being in jail anytime he stays in one place long enough to annoy LEO). It has nothing to do with civil disobedience. Civil disobedience is when you feel a law is unjust, and you break that law with the specific purpose of getting to play the martyr card, and use that sympathy to get the law changed for the betterment of society.

That's not what they do, they don't want the laws improved for us "useful idiots", they want the laws to not apply to them.

No, they literally think that by writing "accepted 4 value" on a receipt means that the bill is paid for by their secret bank account in Fort Knox. That's not bias, that's delusion.

Quite a number of them do get govt benefits.

No, they don't want a boss or any responsibility.

Which is why they don't pay taxes, get a driver's licences, register their car, pay their child support?


Sure, they have different motivations and methods, just like you cannot generalize all bigots into having the same motive for their hate, or the same way of expressing it, SovCits have different reasons for wishing that they have no responsibilities to their community, and different ways of trying to evade it.

The one thing that they have in common though, is that they do not believe that laws apply to *them*. They are not trying to create some revolution, they are not trying to free the rest of us sheeple, they are just trying to scam the system into granting *them* a favored status over the rest of us.
Yes the one thing one of them has in common with himself. Thank you for this bit of information.
  #87  
Old 06-03-2019, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes the one thing one of them has in common with himself. Thank you for this bit of information.
That my brother is a SovCit is not just a sample, but also a reason as to why I have looked into this movement more than enough to see the motives of its followers and its leaders.

Where are you getting your information as to the motives you assume of these people?
  #88  
Old 06-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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Ok you are in a position to read the minds of the Sovcits. I am not, but I see what they communicate as their motivations.
I've not reading anyone's minds, I'm looking at the plain facts, which you are welcome to do, too.
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  #89  
Old 06-03-2019, 02:36 PM
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I'm not trying to say these people aren't off, but in a rather perverse way of looking at things you can think of some words or phrases as being "magic words" to get you out of things.

Again, you have to squint to see it, but that magic word can be, "No" or "I don't consent" or "I want my lawyer" or "I'm asserting my right to remain silent."

If a LEO stops you and asks to search your car, there are probably a lot of people who don't realize they can say "No." So to some, being able to avoid a search simply by saying the right thing at the right time looks like a magic phrase that asserts you controlling the situation, not the LEO.

It is a long way to go from that to standing in front of a judge and claiming the judge has no authority over you, but it isn't a quantum leap. Often times the authority others have over us is only there because we grant it, and these people think that LEOs are using authority that is mostly imaginary, like asking to search a vehicle when the driver doesn't realize they can say no.
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Old 06-03-2019, 04:34 PM
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Sounds like my suspicon that the average sovereign citizen is mentally ill to a greater or lesser degree is true. I mean, there's some fairly convoluted thinking that requires some intelligence to understand and apply, but the idea that someone would actually read this stuff and believe it points at having more than a few screws loose.
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Old 06-03-2019, 05:11 PM
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I just don't get it, in so many of the videos the LEO just wants to write the ticket and be on the way but the sovs insist on dragging it out until they get arrested.

Last edited by rsat3acr; 06-03-2019 at 05:12 PM.
  #92  
Old 06-03-2019, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
Sounds like my suspicon that the average sovereign citizen is mentally ill to a greater or lesser degree is true. I mean, there's some fairly convoluted thinking that requires some intelligence to understand and apply, but the idea that someone would actually read this stuff and believe it points at having more than a few screws loose.
In a similar way to how a cult member is mentally ill. The "beliefs" feed into the delusion, and the delusion reinforces the beliefs. The world that cannot understand them is what is insane (to them).
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Old 06-03-2019, 06:10 PM
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I just don't get it, in so many of the videos the LEO just wants to write the ticket and be on the way but the sovs insist on dragging it out until they get arrested.
Or the cops just want to see their ID, warn them about their tail light, and get back to busting meth labs in Rural-Ass Ammurica.

I cannot believe how patient some of these police are. I often wonder if they get "Dealing With Sovereigns/Elderly/Mentally Ill" training.


ETA: Hey, Cop Shops, handy hint: Do NOT hire me. I'd spend exactly thirty seconds with these people. "Okay, you have the count of ten to get in the back of the cruiser, or I'll tase you and drag your twitching body in there myself. And by the way, I LOVE tasing people like you..."

Last edited by digs; 06-03-2019 at 06:13 PM.
  #94  
Old 06-03-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
I believe the state has no legitimate authority over me. The state is just a mafia protection scheme. [...]

Yes, the government is illegitimate, we get it. You still have to obey their laws, or they get cranky.
And it's not as though the authority of the slaveowners and warlords who would most likely be riding your ass in the absence of government would be any more "legitimate" either.

I think the whole complaint that government is "illegitimate" is fundamentally absurd. "Illegitimate" compared to what? To some fantasy scenario where you're somehow not subject to any type of coercive authority in any form?

Sorry, that's like saying that speech is an "illegitimate" form of communication by comparison with magical telepathic thought transference. Trying to define "legitimacy" on the basis of some imaginary alternative that's not realistically feasible doesn't make sense.
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Old 06-03-2019, 06:44 PM
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And it's not as though the authority of the slaveowners and warlords who would most likely be riding your ass in the absence of government would be any more "legitimate" either.

I think the whole complaint that government is "illegitimate" is fundamentally absurd. "Illegitimate" compared to what? To some fantasy scenario where you're somehow not subject to any type of coercive authority in any form?

Sorry, that's like saying that speech is an "illegitimate" form of communication by comparison with magical telepathic thought transference. Trying to define "legitimacy" on the basis of some imaginary alternative that's not realistically feasible doesn't make sense.
I think the idea is is that "we" never had a choice, we never agreed to the social contract fully informed and without coercion. I disagree with this line of "reasoning" BTW.

But, for those who feel as though they don't want to be a part of the contract of our society, I am more than generous enough to send them to whatever country they can get to take them, or if no one will take them, escort them to the freedom of international waters.

There are plenty of people that would like to come here and voluntarily join our society. We have no need of people that don't want to be here, and they are just taking up "space*" that could be used by someone who does.

*not that I think that we are running short of space anytime soon.

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Old 06-03-2019, 07:08 PM
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I think the idea is is that "we" never had a choice, we never agreed to the social contract fully informed and without coercion.
Sure, but the point that you can't have any kind of social system which everybody consents to in a purely voluntary way, fully informed and without coercion of any sort. Maybe a string quartet can be run on that basis, but not a human society.

Using an unrealizable imaginary model as the yardstick for measuring the legitimacy of real-life governments is just stupid.
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Old 06-03-2019, 07:16 PM
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Sure, but the point that you can't have any kind of social system which everybody consents to in a purely voluntary way, fully informed and without coercion of any sort. Maybe a string quartet can be run on that basis, but not a human society.

Using an unrealizable imaginary model as the yardstick for measuring the legitimacy of real-life governments is just stupid.
Agreed.

But, even if you disagree that you signed up for it, you cannot deny that the govt has the ability to enforce its legitimacy through force, if necessary.

If you don't recognize the Mafia as a legitimate authority in your neighborhood, you still aren't going to get them to leave you alone, or even pay you or show you favoritism, just because you know Italian.
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Old 06-03-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
I think the whole complaint that government is "illegitimate" is fundamentally absurd. "Illegitimate" compared to what? To some fantasy scenario where you're somehow not subject to any type of coercive authority in any form?
Anarchism is worse than that, because it refuses to admit what it really is: Majoritarianism, or the rule by the biggest group, which is rightly reviled because majoritarian systems tend to be very, very dangerous for minorities.

Anarchists claim it isn't, but it can't be anything else. If it had a way to prevent the majority from acting on dangerous whims, it couldn't possibly be anarchism, because it would have a way to coerce groups into not destroying minorities.

Note well: Pointing out the flaws of other systems is a non sequitur. Therefore, I won't respond to people saying liberal democracy, for example, has had failures in the past as if they made an actual argument. If you really don't understand why tearing another system down does nothing to build your system up, read a book on basic logic and argumentation. Thank you.
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  #99  
Old 06-04-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
I think that's really all it is. They're taking the constitution and applying it incorrectly. Fueled by keyboard commandos, they end up taking way too far....

A lot of it can be solved by the officer saying (and I've seen them do this), 'show me where it says that in the constitution and then we'll talk about it'....
I've dealt with Freemen, SCs and their urban equivalents, Moorish Americans, in my court many times and always find them interesting - 5% law and 95% jive.

I will sometimes tell them, "Lincoln needed just three minutes at Gettysburg to describe his Civil War policies. I'll give you five minutes to explain why this court has no jurisdiction over you." I'll take notes and, at the end of the five minutes, politely explain, point by point, why they're wrong, and then say, "We will now proceed with this case." Far more often than not, they just want to be heard, even if they still don't agree that the law applies to them.

A favorite quotation for such yahoos: “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” Coleman v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69.

And a case that may be of interest: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/oh-munic...t/1139588.html
  #100  
Old 06-04-2019, 11:31 AM
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I still maintain the Confederacy was an 1860-version of this movement.
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