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  #51  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Cite?

Or rather, I'm sure there are better threads for your absurd attack on feminists than this one.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/polit...stration-women
https://bust.com/feminism/16574-why-...-equality.html
https://www.statepress.com/article/2...justice-system

Here's some cites. Seems to support my statement and I'm not "attacking" feminists. I am simply pointing out that people who ask for favorable treatment in all areas are by definition asking for others to be treated unfavorably. You can't simultaneously have favoritism and equality.

In many cases, feminists are asking for favorable treatment, in excess of what they would get if the roles were "equal", in order to make up for what they claim is perceived past disadvantaged treatment. Sorta like affirmative action for women except, you know, we live in a society where more women than men go to college.

Or in my examples, I'd want other people to treat me as an 18 year old girl but not be at risk of a sexual assault or groping. Or treat me as an attack helicopter with a full weapons load but not break out the SAM batteries.

Last edited by SamuelA; 06-07-2019 at 07:10 PM.
  #52  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:13 PM
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Similarly, feminists want to be treated like a man...except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man, or face the criminal justice system as a man.
Not this feminist. A man's life is not worth less than a woman's, and I support that if men must sign up for selective service, so should women.
  #53  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:14 PM
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And back to the point: at work, we have a coworker who recently gave birth. She hasn't accomplished much in the last few months. When we talk about it, we kinda tip toe around the issue and give her a pass. "well, she does have her daughter to look after, she may not be fully recovered yet..."

If she were a transgender woman, well, with the same scenario she might be put on a performance improvement plan.
  #54  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
https://www.ncronline.org/news/polit...stration-women
https://bust.com/feminism/16574-why-...-equality.html
https://www.statepress.com/article/2...justice-system

Here's some cites. Seems to support my statement and I'm not "attacking" feminists. I am simply pointing out that people who ask for favorable treatment in all areas are by definition asking for others to be treated unfavorably. You can't simultaneously have favoritism and equality.
None of those cites support your contention that feminists are seeking favorable treatment. The first is arguing that instead of adding women to the draft, the draft should be abolished altogether. The second is arguing that drafting someone isn't giving them rights, its taking away their rights, and as such drafting women shouldn't be considered an advance of women's rights. The last is advocating that more feminists should be interested in sentencing reform - which they absolutely should be, everyone should be - but at no part does the writer directly advocate for unequal treatment of men and women, nor argue that feminism in general is advocating for unequal treatment.

Did you even read those before you posted them?
  #55  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Miller, maybe I missed it, but I don't see you stating what is the right and proper way to address these claims. How about some guidance?
You could explain why being transgender is not the same as thinking you're an inanimate object. You could point out the science that supports transgenderism as a legitimate medical condition. You could bring up the statistics about the appalling rate of suicide attempts among transpeople, and the associated studies that find being treated as the gender with which they identify dramatically lowers the chance that they'll become suicidal. Or you could call them an asshole and tell them to go fuck themselves.

But if you engage directly with the helicopter argument - if you go through all the ways they're clearly not a helicopter, and why it's a dumb claim from the beginning, you're being a fool. Because the person making the argument is well aware of the flaws in the argument. The flaws are the point of the argument.
  #56  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:41 PM
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It's awfully difficult to imagine the OP is sincerely seeking a actual discussion with this question.
  #57  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:00 PM
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I identify myself as a "Tomahawk Cruise Missile". Don't cross me or you'll get the wrath of me. Blah!
  #58  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SamuelA View Post
And back to the point: at work, we have a coworker who recently gave birth. She hasn't accomplished much in the last few months. When we talk about it, we kinda tip toe around the issue and give her a pass. "well, she does have her daughter to look after, she may not be fully recovered yet..."

If she were a transgender woman, well, with the same scenario she might be put on a performance improvement plan.
Are you saying that if a transgender woman at your workplace experienced a major medical event, and immediately afterward gained custody of an infant for whose care she was responsible, there would not be any accommodations made for her? If so, your workplace sucks ass. If you're saying something else, how is it the same scenario?
  #59  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:39 PM
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If a student demands to be treated as a helicopter (or velociraptor, or dump truck), would you treat him as one?
On sight I would bark "Gunner, HEAT, Chopper!"
*extend my arm out straight towards them and follow their movement for a few seconds*
'Confirmation friendly, cease fire!"

I assume I'd end up in the principals office for constantly saying that I am considering whether to shoot a student down.
  #60  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:40 PM
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But there are people who make similar retorts to trans people. "You were born male but identify as a woman? Then tell us when or how you are going to give birth, or menstruate."
If a woman has a hysterectomy, is she still a woman, or is she something else?
  #61  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:45 PM
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If a woman has a hysterectomy, is she still a woman, or is she something else?
Or come to that, Velocity, I think you said you're in your 30's? Perhaps your mother might be upset to discover that you think she's no longer a woman.

Last edited by Riemann; 06-07-2019 at 08:45 PM.
  #62  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:04 PM
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You could explain why being transgender is not the same as thinking you're an inanimate object. You could point out the science that supports transgenderism as a legitimate medical condition. You could bring up the statistics about the appalling rate of suicide attempts among transpeople, and the associated studies that find being treated as the gender with which they identify dramatically lowers the chance that they'll become suicidal. Or you could call them an asshole and tell them to go fuck themselves.

But if you engage directly with the helicopter argument - if you go through all the ways they're clearly not a helicopter, and why it's a dumb claim from the beginning, you're being a fool. Because the person making the argument is well aware of the flaws in the argument. The flaws are the point of the argument.
First, thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, you're serving up the same tired crap that has been proven not to work a million times over.

No real people use the helicopter identification. It's just internet tough guy rhetoric. The only thing that works on them is endless, unrelenting mockery. They have thin skins like most bullies. They hate being laughed at.

That's not a cure-all, but it'll sure take you farther than statistics.
  #63  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:10 PM
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But if you were a teacher or school administrator, where would you draw the line? If a student demands to be treated as a helicopter (or velociraptor, or dump truck), would you treat him as one? What if he were really, really, serious about it?
I would point out to the student that neither a helicopter, velociraptor, nor dump truck has any rights under the law or the school's policy guidelines, and said student should sit down, shut up, and whine to parents at home.

Kids in kindergarten have been known to insist they are princesses, astronauts or basketball players. Teachers do not have to give them crowns, space suits or contracts with the Golden State Warriors.
  #64  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:14 PM
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None of those cites support your contention that feminists are seeking favorable treatment. The first is arguing that instead of adding women to the draft, the draft should be abolished altogether. The second is arguing that drafting someone isn't giving them rights, its taking away their rights, and as such drafting women shouldn't be considered an advance of women's rights. The last is advocating that more feminists should be interested in sentencing reform - which they absolutely should be, everyone should be - but at no part does the writer directly advocate for unequal treatment of men and women, nor argue that feminism in general is advocating for unequal treatment.

Did you even read those before you posted them?
Yes, and they all support my point as written. Glad to see that you read the papers. All 3 are effectively favorable treatment.

Last edited by SamuelA; 06-07-2019 at 09:15 PM.
  #65  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:22 PM
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As a thought experiment, suppose you were the classic "brain in a vat", transplanted out of your current body, placed in a nutrient bath and kept alive, with all your sensory inputs and outputs connected to the world via a computer interface. Are you now a computer? Or are you still human? If you're a human, are you man or a woman? I think you'd probably still feel like a human of whatever sex you were originally, but there's no self-evident answer here. This is just the set-up.

Now suppose that at conception we have the technology to separate your brain from your body and keep them alive independently. And let's say you are XY, you have what is typically "male DNA". We place both your body and your brain in separate nutrient baths and keep them alive. We ensure that your (headless) body receives the hormone signals etc to trigger the "male" development pathway, so of course it grows a penis and testicles and (eventually) a hairy chest. Your brain meanwhile is in a separate vat. Although it has XY DNA, it is artificially infused with the hormone signals etc that trigger the "female" development pathway from conception. But wait, there's more. In this thought experiment, we have 23rd century virtual reality technology. Your brain is also provided with a VR sensory interface so your brain thinks it's not in a vat. It thinks it's growing up as a little girl in a typical suburban home. In principle, if our VR is good enough, we can generate inputs and process outputs to/from the brain that are indistinguishable from real life input/output. Since all the physical elements (hormones etc) are identical to those of a girl, and all the life experiences are indistinguishable from a real girl having a normal youth not in a vat, the brain must surely develop thinking and feeling that it's a girl.

So now, of course, mad scientists that we are, at the age of (say) 18 we transplant the brain back into its body. What now? I'm not saying there is some obvious "gotcha" here, I'm interested what people think.

Last edited by Riemann; 06-07-2019 at 09:25 PM.
  #66  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:51 PM
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Similarly, feminists want to be treated like a man...except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man, or face the criminal justice system as a man.
Tell that to Tammy Duckworth, pal.

As for facing the criminal justice system, wtf? Women don't want to go to jail, and men do?
  #67  
Old 06-07-2019, 10:37 PM
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As for facing the criminal justice system, wtf? Women don't want to go to jail, and men do?
I think his point was that women often get much lighter prison sentences than men for the same crimes. (The exception would be crimes where society puts mothering expectations on women - moms who leave kids in hot cars are often punished more severely than dads, for instance.)
  #68  
Old 06-08-2019, 12:21 AM
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First, thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, you're serving up the same tired crap that has been proven not to work a million times over.

No real people use the helicopter identification. It's just internet tough guy rhetoric. The only thing that works on them is endless, unrelenting mockery. They have thin skins like most bullies. They hate being laughed at.

That's not a cure-all, but it'll sure take you farther than statistics.
But nothing you have advocated doing in any way mocks them.

What you advocate doing is taking them seriously, and challenging their claim to be attack helicopters. In doing so, you are doing exactly what they want. They want you to tell them why it's stupid to identify as an attack helicopter. They will thus use those same arguments to say why a trans woman isn't a woman.

I've literally watched it happen online. Someone will explain why they don't actually identify as an attack helicopter. And then the response will be "that's my point." And then they'll go on about a trans woman doesn't really have a vagina, just a "wound" that will close up. They'll go on about how wanting to be a woman doesn't make them a woman. They'll say, if you won't treat me like an attack helicopter, then I shouldn't have to treat a trans woman as a woman.

I myself do what Miller says. And I've never had it backfire. At worst, I get people telling me that I should learn to take a joke. But I've also gotten "I was just joking, man. I have no problem with trans people." Or even "Oh, I didn't realize."

Also, just like with mockery, argument doesn't necessarily convince people at the time. They may be too defensive. I know I've argued something that someone mocked me for, and then later seen them make the same argument I did. And I've realized someone had a point only a while after I'd argued against them.
  #69  
Old 06-08-2019, 09:18 AM
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Yes, and they all support my point as written. Glad to see that you read the papers. All 3 are effectively favorable treatment.
In what way does abolishing the draft treat one group unfavorably?
  #70  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:06 AM
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In what way does abolishing the draft treat one group unfavorably?
Because people honestly and genuinely wanting equality would be willing to take on negatives as well as positives. You might notice they never mention this, or demand equally long prison sentences as men. Most feminists don't want equality, they want to continue to receive favorable treatment when it benefits them but also receive favorable treatment wherever they are "underrepresented" to make up for alleged discrimination in the past.

Feminism is an advocacy group for women masquerading as an organization seeking equality in the same way that the NRA is an advocacy group for personal ownership for firearms and is uninterested in forming well regulated militias.

Naturally, if you try to form an advocacy group for men - that just wants equality, same as women - you get tarred and feathered.

Last edited by SamuelA; 06-08-2019 at 10:06 AM.
  #71  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:08 AM
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Because people honestly and genuinely wanting equality would be willing to take on negatives as well as positives. You might notice they never mention this, or demand equally long prison sentences as men. Most feminists don't want equality, they want to continue to receive favorable treatment when it benefits them but also receive favorable treatment wherever they are "underrepresented" to make up for alleged discrimination in the past.

Feminism is an advocacy group for women masquerading as an organization seeking equality in the same way that the NRA is an advocacy group for personal ownership for firearms and is uninterested in forming well regulated militias.

Naturally, if you try to form an advocacy group for men - that just wants equality, same as women - you get tarred and feathered.
You can stop digging now. Take a break.
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  #72  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:17 AM
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But nothing you have advocated doing in any way mocks them.

What you advocate doing is taking them seriously, and challenging their claim to be attack helicopters. In doing so, you are doing exactly what they want. They want you to tell them why it's stupid to identify as an attack helicopter. They will thus use those same arguments to say why a trans woman isn't a woman.

I've literally watched it happen online. Someone will explain why they don't actually identify as an attack helicopter. And then the response will be "that's my point." And then they'll go on about a trans woman doesn't really have a vagina, just a "wound" that will close up. They'll go on about how wanting to be a woman doesn't make them a woman. They'll say, if you won't treat me like an attack helicopter, then I shouldn't have to treat a trans woman as a woman.

I myself do what Miller says. And I've never had it backfire. At worst, I get people telling me that I should learn to take a joke. But I've also gotten "I was just joking, man. I have no problem with trans people." Or even "Oh, I didn't realize."

Also, just like with mockery, argument doesn't necessarily convince people at the time. They may be too defensive. I know I've argued something that someone mocked me for, and then later seen them make the same argument I did. And I've realized someone had a point only a while after I'd argued against them.
Did you miss the part where I said it was just internet tough guy rhetoric? Did you think "stripping them for parts" wasn't mockery?

Trans people have to face this in the real world. Let one of the internet jerks try this nonsense in the real world. It's easy to ignore defiance online. You, in fact, take a great amount of IMO totally unwarranted mockery online, and yet you continue to defy the jerks. Good for you. But that's not what I was talking about.
  #73  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:19 AM
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The example I use is "pine tree", drawn from a real-life event: "Hey, it's fine by me however you identify, you can identify as a pine tree if that's the real you, but I gotta tell you I don't really get it and probably never will".

We all know they aren't talking about helicopters or pine trees.

A pseudoliberal "you can call yourself whatever you want to as long as I don't have to understand WTF it means" doesn't really help marginalized people very much. But neither does an insistence that people nod and go along with something they don't understand.
  #74  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:21 AM
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Because people honestly and genuinely wanting equality would be willing to take on negatives as well as positives. You might notice they never mention this, or demand equally long prison sentences as men. Most feminists don't want equality, they want to continue to receive favorable treatment when it benefits them but also receive favorable treatment wherever they are "underrepresented" to make up for alleged discrimination in the past.

Feminism is an advocacy group for women masquerading as an organization seeking equality in the same way that the NRA is an advocacy group for personal ownership for firearms and is uninterested in forming well regulated militias.

Naturally, if you try to form an advocacy group for men - that just wants equality, same as women - you get tarred and feathered.
The announcement of a straight pride parade generated this response:

Quote:
Gay Pride was not born of a need to celebrate being gay, but our right to exist without persecution. So instead of wondering why there isnít a straight pride movement, be thankful you donít need one.
Now, apply that to women's rights.

QED
  #75  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:33 AM
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Most feminists don't want equality, they want to continue to receive favorable treatment when it benefits them but also receive favorable treatment wherever they are "underrepresented" to make up for alleged discrimination in the past.
Do your freaking homework

NOW Supports including women the draft is old news.

Quote:
Naturally, if you try to form an advocacy group for men - that just wants equality, same as women - you get tarred and feathered.
Equality is not something that one party can have. Equality is something that party one has with party two. If you try to form an advocacy group that appears to be about promoting men's concerns while describing men as disadvantaged in comparison with everyone else, and not acknowledging that men are privileged (even if in totally different situations than the one in which you're seeking to advocate for men), yeah, you'll get tarred and feathered, deservingly so.
  #76  
Old 06-08-2019, 11:17 AM
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Because people honestly and genuinely wanting equality would be willing to take on negatives as well as positives. You might notice they never mention this, or demand equally long prison sentences as men. Most feminists don't want equality, they want to continue to receive favorable treatment when it benefits them but also receive favorable treatment wherever they are "underrepresented" to make up for alleged discrimination in the past.

Feminism is an advocacy group for women masquerading as an organization seeking equality in the same way that the NRA is an advocacy group for personal ownership for firearms and is uninterested in forming well regulated militias.

Naturally, if you try to form an advocacy group for men - that just wants equality, same as women - you get tarred and feathered.
"No one should be drafted" is NOT treating anyone unfavorably. Which was what you seem to be arguing.
  #77  
Old 06-08-2019, 01:26 PM
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Further examples here and here.
I know this isn't what the discussion is concentrating on, but I'm pretty sure that the 2014 meme is ripping off/a shoutout to Nick Zerhakker, a character in the Skin Horse webcomic. Nick was a brain in a jar that the military had installed into a secret attack aircraft without his consent. Skin Horse was a government agency with a mandate to aid non-human sapients. Skin Horse originally thought they couldn't help Nick because he was a human brain. They were eventually able to free him when he said that after spending time flying, he identified as an aircraft, now. That identification changed his category according to the regulations that governed Skin Horse.

Nick was first posted in late 2008. The links for the meme are dated 2014. And he was a bitter, mouthy gamer who only interacted with people online. I'm pretty sure that at least some of the meme guys were aware of him.
  #78  
Old 06-08-2019, 02:36 PM
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"No one should be drafted" is NOT treating anyone unfavorably. Which was what you seem to be arguing.
The objection to "abolish the draft" is that it's basically saying that it's okay for one side to put up with hardship, but when it's the other side's term, suddenly to needs abolishing.


By reverse analogy, it's like how some conservatives suggested that "marriage be abolished" when the issue of gay marriage was brought up. Sure, technically it's treating everyone equal, but the true motive was "we don't want gays getting married."
  #79  
Old 06-08-2019, 02:39 PM
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Anyway, since we are far off topic: back to the thread question: If you are a teacher or principal and a group of students claim to be AH-64 Apaches and demands to be addressed by the gender pronoun "chop/choppers/choppiness" and have a restroom for helicopters only, what would you do?

Last edited by Velocity; 06-08-2019 at 02:39 PM.
  #80  
Old 06-08-2019, 02:46 PM
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The objection to "abolish the draft" is that it's basically saying that it's okay for one side to put up with hardship, but when it's the other side's term, suddenly to needs abolishing.
Precisely. Hence, my point that feminism is really an woman's advocacy group.

They want the biggest piece of the pie they can get, regardless of it's the majority of the pie or not.

This is fine, I just am annoyed, like many men, at how media presents the feminism side as the only correct and just one. Everyone always talks about all the sexual harassment women face, but never when it's treatment in their favor.
  #81  
Old 06-08-2019, 02:54 PM
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The objection to "abolish the draft" is that it's basically saying that it's okay for one side to put up with hardship, but when it's the other side's term, suddenly to needs abolishing.
Where are you getting the idea that feminists only opposed the draft when people started talking about including women in it?
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:06 PM
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Where are you getting the idea that feminists only opposed the draft when people started talking about including women in it?
History textbooks.
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:07 PM
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Anyway, since we are far off topic: back to the thread question: If you are a teacher or principal and a group of students claim to be AH-64 Apaches and demands to be addressed by the gender pronoun "chop/choppers/choppiness" and have a restroom for helicopters only, what would you do?
I would pull them aside and have a come to Jesus talk with them. The points I'd hit in this private conversation would be:

1) I'm not an idiot.
2) You're not being as clever as you believe you are being.
3) You're being disrespectful and ugly, in a way that serves no purpose except to make the lives of people around you worse.
4) Since you're unable or unwilling to control your behavior, it's up to me now. Continue in this vein of sophomoric satire, and there will be consequences. It ends now.
  #84  
Old 06-08-2019, 03:26 PM
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5) Do you identify as a male helicopter or a female helicopter? Use that restroom.
6) Hover over the quad for 15 minutes. If you are unable to do that, then you are a broken helicopter and as such will be scrapped for melt value.
  #85  
Old 06-08-2019, 03:28 PM
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5) Do you identify as a male helicopter or a female helicopter? Use that restroom.
6) Hover over the quad for 15 minutes. If you are unable to do that, then you are a broken helicopter and as such will be scrapped for melt value.
Nah. As Miller has said, that lets them set the terms of the debate. And it's a stupid fucking debate they want to have. Talk about the underlying issue, which is that they're being dishonest assholes, and that's what needs to be addressed.

(On the INCREDIBLY REMOTE chance that I encountered a student making this claim seriously, with no explicit nor implied smirk, I'd reach out for professional help from someone qualified to help them.)
  #86  
Old 06-08-2019, 03:38 PM
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First, thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, you're serving up the same tired crap that has been proven not to work a million times over.

No real people use the helicopter identification. It's just internet tough guy rhetoric. The only thing that works on them is endless, unrelenting mockery. They have thin skins like most bullies. They hate being laughed at.

That's not a cure-all, but it'll sure take you farther than statistics.
You're still not getting it, Exapno. I have no problem with mocking and humiliating bigots. I'm all in on that plan. But this sort of response is not doing that. You're not mocking the bigot, you're validating his argument. You are giving exactly the response he wants you to give, because it's a springboard to, "Hey, you're right, no amount of wishing can make me be an attack helicopter! And no amount of wishing can make a man into a woman!" You're not mocking him, you're being played by him.
  #87  
Old 06-08-2019, 04:03 PM
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You're still not getting it, Exapno. I have no problem with mocking and humiliating bigots. I'm all in on that plan. But this sort of response is not doing that. You're not mocking the bigot, you're validating his argument. You are giving exactly the response he wants you to give, because it's a springboard to, "Hey, you're right, no amount of wishing can make me be an attack helicopter! And no amount of wishing can make a man into a woman!" You're not mocking him, you're being played by him.
But....this is factually true. Some day we might be able to grow whole brainless bodies and transplant our entire brains into them, fixing all of the normal dementia and stroke problems that older brains have with genetic hacks with a tool similar to crispr. And also somehow connecting all of the nerves.

That day is not today. It's not tomorrow. It won't be this decade. It might not be this century. Until then, while we can understanding to people who want to be called "choppers", and maybe try to force ourselves to use the correct pronoun, we'll make mistakes.

And if "choppers" want to use a particular bathroom, and as part of their coping mechanism they carry a "flight data recorder" with them into the bathroom, maybe we can't just let them use whatever bathroom they want. Maybe they should have to pee outside because the rights of the other bathroom occupants not to be recorded by a flight data recorder trump theirs.

Similarly, if the majority of women want to be free of men, or creatures who were previously determined to be men by medical doctors, in their safe space of a bathroom, maybe their rights trump those of transexuals.
  #88  
Old 06-08-2019, 04:33 PM
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Civil rights are human rights. Helicopters aren't human, they are inanimate objects. I would ask that person to be very clear whether they want to be treated as an inanimate object, and if they understand what that means.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:38 PM
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Disproving someone's sincerity could be legally tough. Sure, no one seriously claims to be a helicopter, but all kinds of scrutiny are needed in court or law not needed elsewhere.
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:41 PM
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Disproving someone's sincerity could be legally tough. Sure, no one seriously claims to be a helicopter, but all kinds of scrutiny are needed in court or law not needed elsewhere.
Right, and the "bathroom bills" were a response to the idea that a transexual need not do anything to prove their sincerity. They need not take hormones. Attend therapy. Dress as the other gender. Have any surgery. Change their hairstyle.

Essentially, a tattooed biker with a previous conviction for rape could simply declare that he now feels he's a woman, with no prior history of such desires, and we have to take his/her word for it*. That we are being discriminatory and bigoted and so on if we do anything but immediately believe what any person says and allow them special privileges at the expense of the "normal" 90-95% of the population.

*the other side of the argument will quickly point out that this doesn't really happen, which is true, and that a bathroom sign doesn't protect women from rape, which is also true.

Last edited by SamuelA; 06-08-2019 at 04:43 PM.
  #91  
Old 06-08-2019, 04:43 PM
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Disproving someone's sincerity could be legally tough. Sure, no one seriously claims to be a helicopter, but all kinds of scrutiny are needed in court or law not needed elsewhere.
Are you joking? Ask them to do anything that they think an attack helicopter does.
Hover over the ground for 9 seconds. Drink a pint of JP-4 fuel. If they don't want to do what attack helicopters do, then they aren't sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them?
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Old 06-08-2019, 04:45 PM
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Are you joking? Ask them to do anything that they think an attack helicopter does.
Hover over the ground for 9 seconds. Drink a pint of JP-4 fuel. If they don't want to do what attack helicopters do, then they aren't sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them?
Put their penis in a woman (if F->M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off.

If they don't want to do what men/women do, then they aren't sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in?

Last edited by SamuelA; 06-08-2019 at 04:46 PM.
  #93  
Old 06-08-2019, 04:54 PM
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If they don't want to do what men/women do, then they aren't sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in?
This is garbage. Trans people do everything they physically can in order to emulate/become their chosen gender. They take treatments, they change their clothing, they change their mannerisms, they change everything. They risk getting their asses jumped for doing this. Whatever they can't do, isn't not for lack of trying.

What are the attack helicopter dipshits doing to prove their sincerity? How are they changing? What are they risking? Not a goddamn thing.
  #94  
Old 06-08-2019, 05:04 PM
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Put their penis in a woman (if F->M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off.

If they don't want to do what men/women do, then they aren't sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in?
If you are suspicious when someone claims to be a certain gender, do you ask them to show you a penis, or have a baby, have sex in front of you, expose a breast and give it a good milking, or jerk off in front of you? If someone questioned your sexual identity, what would you be willing to do to convince them?
  #95  
Old 06-08-2019, 05:19 PM
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Right, and the "bathroom bills" were a response to the idea that a transexual need not do anything to prove their sincerity.
It doesn't bother me that you're factually incorrect. It does bother me that you're so confident in your ignorance.

Seriously, Sam, you need to get better about researching your beliefs to see if they're real.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:04 PM
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It doesn't bother me that you're factually incorrect. It does bother me that you're so confident in your ignorance.

Seriously, Sam, you need to get better about researching your beliefs to see if they're real.
Ok, produce a link. I am a transexual student at your high school. I want to use the girl's restroom.

What are the policies so i can use it?
  #97  
Old 06-08-2019, 06:28 PM
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Ok, produce a link. I am a transexual student at your high school. I want to use the girl's restroom.

What are the policies so i can use it?
Just so we're clear:
1) I don't teach at a high school.
2) If I don't produce links that disprove the idea you made up, you'll keep believing the thing you believe? You're confident enough in your ignorance that you treat it as a starting position?

Here's a good place for you to start reading.

If Sam, identified as male in eighth grade, identifies as female in ninth grade, let Sam use the girls' restroom. If Tracy, identified as female since birth, starts harassing other girls in the restroom, hold Tracy accountable for the harassment. Same for Sam.

Genitalia don't need to be involved in decisions about harassment.
  #98  
Old 06-08-2019, 06:39 PM
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Just so we're clear:
1) I don't teach at a high school.
2) If I don't produce links that disprove the idea you made up, you'll keep believing the thing you believe? You're confident enough in your ignorance that you treat it as a starting position?

Here's a good place for you to start reading.

If Sam, identified as male in eighth grade, identifies as female in ninth grade, let Sam use the girls' restroom. If Tracy, identified as female since birth, starts harassing other girls in the restroom, hold Tracy accountable for the harassment. Same for Sam.

Genitalia don't need to be involved in decisions about harassment.
Thanks for the link. It supports 100% the point I was trying to make. As the link states, transexuals need not do anything to establish their new gender identity. They need not take any steps at all.

So if they don't have to do anything but say they feel a certain way and should thus have the other gender's privileges, I demand a fueling depot for my helicopter engines. And if I can't have that, I should at least be allowed to dump my waste where we dump used helicopter coolant.
  #99  
Old 06-08-2019, 06:42 PM
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Put their penis in a woman (if F->M). Have a baby. Have vaginal sex with a man. Excrete milk from their breasts. Jerk off.

If they don't want to do what men/women do, then they aren't sincere. I mean they can have their own pronoun but what else do they want people to do for them, let them in whatever bathroom or changing room they want? Compete in whatever sport they feel they belong in?
Well, since you aren't in the other thread, I'll quote my response there:

- Employment non-discrimination
- Housing non-discrimination
- Ban on conversion therapy for minors
- Hate crimes protection
- Ban on "trans panic" defense
- Medicaid coverage for trans-related medication (many states explicitly ban it)
- Medical treatment and protection in prisons
- Title IX protection
- The ability to change documentation without bottom surgery

To be more specific, do you question the gender of gay people? People who don't want children? Some trans women can induce lactation. Most trans people still masturbate. I mean, you do realize that human gender has a very complex social component and that it touches on much more than fucking, having babies, and raising babies, right?
  #100  
Old 06-08-2019, 06:58 PM
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You want to know how a teacher would react to a student demanding to be treated as if he* is an Apache helicopter? How about a former teacher? I find it incredibly obnoxious to make the comparison in the first place, but maybe it's done from arrogant ignorance. So in the interest of fighting that, here goes.

Trans people are not asking to be treated differently; they're asking to be treated the same as their identified gender. So a trans student in one of my classes would have been treated as a student, subject to the same rules all the other students abided by in my classroom.

A kid claiming he* identifies as an Apache helicopter would also get treated the same as other students. If I'm supposed to call the kid "Apache helicopter," and "it," fine. If I'm supposed to use the third person neutral pronoun, fine. If, however, he wants to take off from his seat and spin on top of other students' desks, that's not going to happen. Even if the kid insists he's a helicopter because of an identified mental health disorder that qualifies under federal law and is on an IEP wouldn't be allowed to compromise the learning of other students by such disruptive behavior.

And as a woman, I find this "feminists want to be treated like a man...except, you know, for having to work a dangerous job like a man, face the military draft like a man" crap insulting, demeaning, and patently untrue. I used to do an activity in my classes where kids gave me their birthday month/day, and I'd tell them what their draft number would have been. We pretended women could have been drafted so the girls could participate. Those with a draft number below 196 (using the 1970 draft lottery) had to decide whether they'd go serve, go to Canada, etc. The girls were not statistically less likely than the boys to choose serving.

I don't throw around the term misogynistic too often, but this type of comment definitely qualifies.

*or she
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