Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-09-2018, 12:22 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,182
At what point does someone have a right to reside in a country?

There can be little doubt that citizens and people with visas, green cards, etc. have a legal right to reside in a country. But when it comes to illegal immigration, at which point has the illegal immigrant crossed over from "don't have a right to be here" to "DO have a right to be here?"

(Not a thread about illegal immigration in general, only about this one thing in particular..)

Most people on the political spectrum would probably say that someone who just crossed the border illegally at El Paso or disembarked from a ship illegally at Sicily doesn't have the right to be in their new country - otherwise, everyone has a right to be anywhere as soon as they cross a border, and then borders might as well not exist. But if that migrant stays there for years, undercover, have they gradually established more and more of a basis for "right to reside?"
  #2  
Old 01-09-2018, 12:28 PM
AK84 AK84 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 15,107
Never.
It is a Nation-States privilege to decide who can and cannot reside within its borders. Otherwise, its not a Nation-State, its a jumped up province or municipality.

Please note, the difference between law and policy here is stark. While law should leave complete discretion to the country, it as a matter of policy will often be better served by having at least a soft border, if not an open one. On balance that's an advantage as it attracts talent and highly successful polities have typically been ones with inclusive tendencies. The Romans, the Arab Caliphate, the Ottomans Turks, the US etc. These two things should not be confused.
  #3  
Old 01-09-2018, 01:22 PM
up_the_junction up_the_junction is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: South London
Posts: 4,746
Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen

At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty.
__________________
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believes themselves free Goethe
  #4  
Old 01-09-2018, 01:54 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 57,109
That would depend on the country, wouldn't it?
Have a particular one in mind?
  #5  
Old 01-09-2018, 01:59 PM
Gatopescado's Avatar
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: on your last raw nerve
Posts: 19,844
Go through the legal steps to enter the country and become a citizen.
  #6  
Old 01-09-2018, 02:48 PM
Desert Nomad's Avatar
Desert Nomad Desert Nomad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Europe/MidEast
Posts: 2,855
I agree with AK84. If you enter illegally, even 30 years later, you are still illegal.
  #7  
Old 01-09-2018, 02:49 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
That would depend on the country, wouldn't it?
Have a particular one in mind?
I wanted to make it as general as possible - not just about, say, the USA, but rather, about someone's right to reside in any or all of the 190+ other countries without legal authorization.
  #8  
Old 01-09-2018, 02:51 PM
DrCube DrCube is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Caseyville, IL
Posts: 6,981
Whenever they move there, presuming they are not fleeing felons (exceptions made for political refugees), foreign spies or an invading/occupying force. In other words, the exact same point that a citizen of California has the right to reside in Illinois. It shouldn't be illegal to move.
  #9  
Old 01-09-2018, 02:52 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 57,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I wanted to make it as general as possible - not just about, say, the USA, but rather, about someone's right to reside in any or all of the 190+ other countries without legal authorization.
I'd be surprised if they all had the same requirements.
  #10  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:29 PM
don't mind me don't mind me is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: somewhere over there
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
I'd be surprised if they all had the same requirements.
Certainly not, but as I understand the OP, this is about the concept of human rights.

No criminal record (being in a country illegally is a civil offense, not a crime). Gainfully employed. Ties to the community, including school-age children or volunteer work. Possibly not participating in "chain migration." After ten years or so, you're good to stay. It might be legally cumbersome, but I'm OK with giving a green card but not allowing naturalization.

Last edited by don't mind me; 01-09-2018 at 03:29 PM.
  #11  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:32 PM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,732
It really is a matter of property rights. Individuals have a right to person and property. If an “immigrant” is located on property where the owner has no qualms with his presence, the government should have no right to “deport” him any more than warlords have a right to kidnap him.

“Publicly” owned land is not owned legitimately. The legitimate owners of this property should be decided on a case-by-case basis, and then the rightful owners can decide who can exist on the land.

I suspect the vast majority of “illegal” immigrants reside, work, and otherwise exist on land legitimately.

The illegal immigrant has no right to exercise government privileges such as voting, welfare benefits, etc. Similarly, legal immigrants and lifetime residents have no such right to these privileges, but politically it is more difficult to revoke these privileges from non-illegals. This is a very minor issue for me. I don’t think immigrants move to the US to vote Democratic and collect welfare, but I’m sure some try to get some of the benefits like good Americans.

A hardcore libertarian policy position would be to increase illegal immigration and hopelfully with that, tax evasion. A second-best solution would be a variation on various guest worker schemes.

The length of time a person spends within the bounds of government jurisdiction is irrelevant to the matter of rights.
  #12  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:34 PM
andros andros is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Dejagore
Posts: 10,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
ďPubliclyĒ owned land is not owned legitimately.
Nonsense. That's as silly as saying that a corporation cannot own property.
  #13  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:36 PM
Icarus's Avatar
Icarus Icarus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In front of my PC, y tu?
Posts: 4,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Nomad View Post
I agree with AK84. If you enter illegally, even 30 years later, you are still illegal.
You meant to say "you are still residing illegally"? A person can not be illegal.
__________________
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
- C. Darwin
  #14  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:43 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 57,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
You meant to say "you are still residing illegally"? A person can not be illegal.
I was just going to say this-Can a person also be "robbery", "kidnapping" or "assault"?
  #15  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:48 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 33,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen

At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty.
Um...your cite says: not broken any immigration laws while in the UK

If they entered illegally, surely they broke UK immigration laws, no?
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #16  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:59 PM
SeniorCitizen007 SeniorCitizen007 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen

At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty.
In the early 2000s Nigerians were recruited to work in low paid jobs in Britain (as staff of care homes, sheltered housing schemes, etc.). After 5 years they could become British Citizens and were free to take any job they wished. A Metropolitan Police internet page claimed that this scheme was being used by Nigerian criminals to settle in Britain.

Last edited by SeniorCitizen007; 01-09-2018 at 04:00 PM.
  #17  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:09 PM
SeniorCitizen007 SeniorCitizen007 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 292
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Rfvy_LtZ1E8luw

I knew this guy ... he's an extraordinarily intelligent man. He was prosecuted under the name David Peters ... which is my name!
  #18  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:29 PM
SeniorCitizen007 SeniorCitizen007 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 292
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ibori

This guy's wife visited the Sheltered Housing Scheme I lived in in London and spoke to the Nigerian staff there ... after her visit they became extremely dominant towards me and some other residents. Ibori had a house nearby. What was going on I don't know ... but I'm sure it wasn't legal. I eventually abandoned my flat and most of my possessions and moved out if London
  #19  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:43 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 33,656
To answer the OP:

Quote:
But when it comes to illegal immigration, at which point has the illegal immigrant crossed over from "don't have a right to be here" to "DO have a right to be here?"
At the point where they go through official channels and either get a work visa or apply for and are granted citizenship. Until then it doesn't matter if they are here 5 minutes or 5 years.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #20  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:47 PM
Duckster's Avatar
Duckster Duckster is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Go through the legal steps to enter the country and become a citizen.
One need not be a citizen of a country to legally reside there.
  #21  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:48 PM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 3,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by andros View Post
Nonsense. That's as silly as saying that a corporation cannot own property.
No it isnít. Governments canít own property legitimately not because they are organizations, but because they acquire property through violent expropriation instead of voluntary exchange or homesteading. Corporations do not deploy violence to acquire property. If they do, the facts of the matter are settled in a court.
  #22  
Old 01-09-2018, 04:53 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 57,109
From Here:
Quote:
Everyone may, in principle, travel to Svalbard, and foreign citizens do not need a visa or a work or residence permit from Norwegian authorities in order to settle in Svalbard.
  #23  
Old 01-09-2018, 05:05 PM
XT's Avatar
XT XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 33,656
You can kind of see why Norway is cool with anyone (generally Russians) settling in Svaldbard.

Quote:
The Svalbard Treaty of 1920 established full Norwegian sovereignty over the archipelago. The islands are, unlike the Norwegian Antarctic Territory, a part of the Kingdom of Norway and not a dependency. The treaty came into effect in 1925, following the Svalbard Act. All forty signatory countries of the treaty have the right to conduct commercial activities on the archipelago without discrimination, although all activity is subject to Norwegian legislation. The treaty limits Norway's right to collect taxes to that of financing services on Svalbard. Therefore, Svalbard has a lower income tax than mainland Norway, and there is no value added tax. There is a separate budget for Svalbard to ensure compliance. Svalbard is a demilitarized zone, as the treaty prohibits the establishment of military installations. Norwegian military activity is limited to fishery surveillance by the Norwegian Coast Guard as the treaty requires Norway to protect the natural environment.[6][74]

The Svalbard Act established the institution of the Governor of Svalbard (Norwegian: Sysselmannen), who holds the responsibility as both county governor and chief of police, as well as holding other authority granted from the executive branch. Duties include environmental policy, family law, law enforcement, search and rescue, tourism management, information services, contact with foreign settlements, and judge in some areas of maritime inquiries and judicial examinationsóalbeit never in the same cases as acting as police.[75][76] Since 2015, Kjerstin Askholt has been governor; she is assisted by a staff of 26 professionals. The institution is subordinate to the Ministry of Justice and the Police, but reports to other ministries in matters within their portfolio.[77]
Quote:
Although Norway is part of the European Economic Area (EEA) and the Schengen Agreement, Svalbard is not part of the Schengen Area or the EEA.[81] Non-EU and non-Nordic Svalbard residents do not need Schengen visas, but are prohibited from reaching Svalbard from mainland Norway without such. In theory it would be possible to do a visa-free airport transit at Oslo Airport, but this is not allowed by Norway. People without a source of income can be rejected by the governor.[82] No person is required to have a visa or residence permit for Svalbard. Everybody can live and work in Svalbard indefinitely regardless of citizenship. Svalbard Treaty grants treaty nationals equal right of abode as Norwegian nationals. So far, non-treaty nationals were admitted visa-free as well. "Regulations concerning rejection and expulsion from Svalbard" in force.[83][84] Russia retains a consulate in Barentsburg.[85]

In September 2010 a treaty was made between Russia and Norway fixing the boundary between the Svalbard archipelago and the Novaya Zemlya archipelago. Increased interest in petroleum exploration in the Arctic raised interest in a resolution of the dispute. The agreement takes into account the relative positions of the archipelagos, rather than being based simply on northward extension of the continental border of Norway and Russia.[86]
I don't think this is applicable to, oh, say the US as a whole. Or even the rest of Norway...
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #24  
Old 01-09-2018, 05:22 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Indian Land, S Carolina
Posts: 13,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
No it isnít. Governments canít own property legitimately not because they are organizations, but because they acquire property through violent expropriation instead of voluntary exchange or homesteading. Corporations do not deploy violence to acquire property. If they do, the facts of the matter are settled in a court.
Your opinion is duly noted. As is the case in all countries, it is rejected as being inconsistent with accepted norms.


As for the basic question, it appears to me that the question is asking whether or not the concept of adverse possession should be applied to issues of residency. That is, if I manage to avoid deportation, or if I am legally present in a country I am not a citizen of, is there some point at which my adverse residency must be given legal status as a basic right of my humanity?

I think that's not going to be an accepted position of any country. One of the basic ideas of nationhood (as noted upthread by AK84 is that nations get to establish the rules by which you can enter and reside. We can get into a discussion of whether or not a nation has the right to terminate citizenship, but I don't think any nation will give up the right to terminate legal residency, and certainly not the right to reject those resident without permission.

Out of curiosity, does the OP have any rationale for why a "right" to remain in a country you have resided in for a period of time should exist?
  #25  
Old 01-09-2018, 05:39 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 15,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Most people on the political spectrum would probably say that someone who just crossed the border illegally at El Paso or disembarked from a ship illegally at Sicily doesn't have the right to be in their new country - otherwise, everyone has a right to be anywhere as soon as they cross a border, and then borders might as well not exist. But if that migrant stays there for years, undercover, have they gradually established more and more of a basis for "right to reside?"

No, I donít see that it becomes any less wrong just because they do more of it.
  #26  
Old 01-09-2018, 05:57 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 57,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
You can kind of see why Norway is cool with anyone (generally Russians) settling in Svaldbard.





I don't think this is applicable to, oh, say the US as a whole. Or even the rest of Norway...
But the topic isn't about the US as a whole. Or even the rest of Norway.
  #27  
Old 01-09-2018, 06:50 PM
UDS UDS is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,263
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Never.
It is a Nation-States privilege to decide who can and cannot reside within its borders. Otherwise, its not a Nation-State, its a jumped up province or municipality.
Well, yes, on one level.

But on another level we need to dig a bit deeper. Suppose a nation-state enacts a law saying that, e.g., Jews are stripped of citizenship or any other status they may possess which permits residence, and therefore have no right to reside in the country. If we see rights as purely the outcome of positive law, then these Jews now have no right to reside in the country. But if we see rights as moral claims antecedent to positive law, and as standards against which positive law can be judged, then we would probably say that this Jews do have a right to reside in the country, and the recently-enacted law can be criticised for infringing that right.

You can apply exactly the same analysis to laws dealing with rights of residence for people who have migrated into the country. You can argue that when people have formed attachments, put down roots, made a contribution to society, etc for long enough, they have a moral claim to be allowed to continue to participate in the community of which they are now members, and the community has a moral obligation not to exclude them from doing so. And it's the boundaries of that moral claim which the OP invites exploration of.
  #28  
Old 01-09-2018, 06:54 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Go through the legal steps to enter the country and become a citizen.
That's impossible in many cases. There is no legal avenue, for example, for an average Mexican to legally immigrate to the United States. The same is true for people who want to immigrate to America from China, India, the Philippines, and a number of other countries.
  #29  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:02 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Never.
It is a Nation-States privilege to decide who can and cannot reside within its borders. Otherwise, its not a Nation-State, its a jumped up province or municipality.
Quote:
Yes.

It is a Nation-State's privilege to decide who can and cannot reside within its borders. Otherwise, it's not a Nation-State, it's a jumped up province or municipality.
Both statements are equally true.

My point is that a country can establish any law it likes in regards to immigration and citizenship. Saying that nobody has a right to become a citizen because the law doesn't give them that right is begging the question. Change the law and you've established the right. You can't argue that something should be illegal because it's against the law.
  #30  
Old 01-09-2018, 07:11 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
You can kind of see why Norway is cool with anyone (generally Russians) settling in Svaldbard.
Interesting how the fourth largest ethnic group in Svalbard (after Norwegians, Russians, and Ukrainians) are Thais.
  #31  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:34 PM
Nava Nava is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 39,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
No it isn’t. Governments can’t own property legitimately not because they are organizations, but because they acquire property through violent expropriation instead of voluntary exchange or homesteading.
Not always; they can also acquire it due to lack of claimants or, in the case of monarchies, the personal property of a lord (who did not necessarily acquire it through violent means*) becomes the country.


* Very often when there is a mess whomever acts like he knows what to do (that is, the first person to start giving orders that are not completely imbecilic) is instantly In Charge. If that was solved satisfactorily, people start coming to that person for advice. Eventually that's the person who gets people brought to when a traveler says "bring me to your leader". One of the roots of the feudal system was the recognition of people like this; it wasn't always (like people tend to think) conquest or royal appointment.
__________________
Life ain't peaches and cream, but sometimes it's laughing your ass off when you have no ass. - WhyNot

Last edited by Nava; 01-09-2018 at 08:35 PM.
  #32  
Old 01-09-2018, 08:40 PM
Nava Nava is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 39,165
The legal steps thing can be enormously difficult for refugees. If your house was in flames, would you stop to pick up your diplomas? If you spend seven years in five refugee camps in countries bordering yours, where do you get those diplomas certified by your country's ministry of education? Many of the refugees currently in Europe are educated people who in peacetime would have been able to immigrate directly to our middle or upper-middle classes, but who right now don't have a way to prove that they're more than a pair of hands because the procedure for that is completely paper-based; any merits-based procedures are closed to them. Some countries have been better at finding alternate ways through this (Germany) than others (I'm looking at us, Spain).
__________________
Life ain't peaches and cream, but sometimes it's laughing your ass off when you have no ass. - WhyNot
  #33  
Old 01-09-2018, 09:14 PM
adaher adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
Fwiw, the UK naturalisation system works on 5 years residency. I guess at that point it it recognises a committment and a contribution: https://www.gov.uk/becoming-a-british-citizen

At some point an individual deserves and has earned certainty.
Not when they committed the original sin of violating our laws. This doesn't mean I oppose amnesty, just that it isn't "deserved" or "earned". Much like Christians believe in salvation it's a gift from us to them that they did nothing to earn and could have never done anything to earn.

As for the OP, the answer is obvious and there is only one: voters have an absolute right to decide who is a citizen, who is a permanent resident, who can stay temporarily, and who can't come at all.
  #34  
Old 01-09-2018, 09:16 PM
adaher adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
You meant to say "you are still residing illegally"? A person can not be illegal.
This is a fair point that is often made, but it's not nearly as clever as its proponents think. People ARE illegal in terms of being illegal residents, illegal workers, etc. And what do you do with people who are illegal? Do you punish them? Jail them? No, you put them where they are legally supposed to be.

Now if we're conceding that these people are committing an illegal act, then that changes things, but not in a way you'd probably like.
  #35  
Old 01-09-2018, 09:18 PM
adaher adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by UDS View Post
Well, yes, on one level.

But on another level we need to dig a bit deeper. Suppose a nation-state enacts a law saying that, e.g., Jews are stripped of citizenship or any other status they may possess which permits residence, and therefore have no right to reside in the country. If we see rights as purely the outcome of positive law, then these Jews now have no right to reside in the country. But if we see rights as moral claims antecedent to positive law, and as standards against which positive law can be judged, then we would probably say that this Jews do have a right to reside in the country, and the recently-enacted law can be criticised for infringing that right.

You can apply exactly the same analysis to laws dealing with rights of residence for people who have migrated into the country. You can argue that when people have formed attachments, put down roots, made a contribution to society, etc for long enough, they have a moral claim to be allowed to continue to participate in the community of which they are now members, and the community has a moral obligation not to exclude them from doing so. And it's the boundaries of that moral claim which the OP invites exploration of.
I think current law already gets that right. If you come here illegally, you will never be safe. Your children, however, who you gave birth to here, are citizens. We hold the people who commit crimes responsible. Not their descendants.
  #36  
Old 01-09-2018, 09:20 PM
gatorslap gatorslap is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
No it isnít. Governments canít own property legitimately not because they are organizations, but because they acquire property through violent expropriation instead of voluntary exchange or homesteading. Corporations do not deploy violence to acquire property. If they do, the facts of the matter are settled in a court.
Almost all land on Earth that is owned by anybody, be it a private person, corporation, or government, was acquired through violence and/or theft if you go back far enough.
__________________
The mind is a terrible thing to taste.
  #37  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:22 PM
marshmallow marshmallow is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
A hardcore libertarian policy position would be to increase illegal immigration and hopelfully with that, tax evasion. A second-best solution would be a variation on various guest worker schemes.
That's a milquetoast liberal position in a world where right-libertarians argue that open borders are an assault on private property. A hardcore position is that immigrants, feminists, socialists, and other collectivists must be purged to establish and protect a right-libertarian society. Reading the more vicious tendencies in the movement is interesting because they seemed to have, quite by accident, re-invented and argue old leftist topics such as the vanguard party, dekulakization, dictatorship of the proletariat, and socialism/libertarianism in one country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorslap View Post
Almost all land on Earth that is owned by anybody, be it a private person, corporation, or government, was acquired through violence and/or theft if you go back far enough.
Yeah, private property relations requires state violence to maintain. When the European explorers set out they didn't find the world dotted with ancap tribes.
  #38  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:30 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
This is a fair point that is often made, but it's not nearly as clever as its proponents think. People ARE illegal in terms of being illegal residents, illegal workers, etc. And what do you do with people who are illegal? Do you punish them? Jail them? No, you put them where they are legally supposed to be.

Now if we're conceding that these people are committing an illegal act, then that changes things, but not in a way you'd probably like.
But your sole objection to them being here is that they entered the country illegally? If that law was changed and they were able to enter the country legally, you'd have no problem with those same people residing and living in the United States?
  #39  
Old 01-09-2018, 11:19 PM
adaher adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,471
I don't really have much of an opinion on what our immigration laws should be. I lean towards lots of immigration, as I think it makes our country stronger as long as we aren't spending money on people en masse with Medicaid and food stamps. The reason why it's not really something on the table is that first, the public wants less immigration, not more:

http://news.gallup.com/poll/194819/s...ds-steady.aspx

So we should maintain current OFFICIAL immigration levels, while reordering our priorities to meet demand a little better, and also our country's needs. And between E-verify and enough agents and courts, we can make sure we never have millions of illegal immigrants again.

In other words, my objection has little to do with the immigrants themselves and more to do with mass disrespect for our laws and politicians who believe the public needs to be lied to for our own good.

Last edited by adaher; 01-09-2018 at 11:20 PM.
  #40  
Old 01-10-2018, 12:20 AM
AK84 AK84 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 15,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
At the point where they go through official channels and either get a work visa or apply for and are granted citizenship. Until then it doesn't matter if they are here 5 minutes or 5 years.
Exactly. Now you can argue that the rules should be relaxed or interpreted liberally. Thatís a seperate question from whether there should be rules at all.

Applies to Little Nemoís observations as well.
  #41  
Old 01-10-2018, 12:29 AM
adaher adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,471
Exactly. I think that most Americans would probably be cool with a very liberal immigration policy if that meant that those who weren't allowed in were actually kicked out fairly reliably. A lot of the resentment and hard lines come from the fact that not only is the law not enforced, but many people who have immigrated illegally think they are entitled to stay. While the suckers wait in line.

So ironically, by lying to the public about what our immigration policy is on paper, they created mass anger and backlash against what our immigration policy actually is in reality. Funny thing about paper though: it's the law, which means Trump needs no money, no Congressional approval, no permission from judges, to clamp down hard on illegal immigration. Because his supposedly cruel, racist policy is actually what the law IS.
  #42  
Old 01-10-2018, 12:29 AM
AK84 AK84 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 15,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaher View Post
I don't really have much of an opinion on what our immigration laws should be. I lean towards lots of immigration, as I think it makes our country stronger as long as we aren't spending money on people en masse with Medicaid and food stamps. The reason why it's not really something on the table is that first, the public wants less immigration, not more:

http://news.gallup.com/poll/194819/s...ds-steady.aspx

So we should maintain current OFFICIAL immigration levels, while reordering our priorities to meet demand a little better, and also our country's needs. And between E-verify and enough agents and courts, we can make sure we never have millions of illegal immigrants again.

In other words, my objection has little to do with the immigrants themselves and more to do with mass disrespect for our laws and politicians who believe the public needs to be lied to for our own good.
Well dispensing with the OP’s fiction that the question is about all countries not just the US, my outsiders perspective is that the US public seems to want very tough laws, however it’s ambivalent about it’s enforcement preferring loose or selective application.

“Tough on immigration”, is like “tough on crime” or “zero tolerance”, a lot easier and popular to legislate than implement.

ETA: just saw your above post. Think it’s accurate, except that while most people would be fine (and not just in US here) with reletivley free movement of persons, the loudest voice won’t be, and they have outsized influence.

Last edited by AK84; 01-10-2018 at 12:33 AM.
  #43  
Old 01-10-2018, 04:19 AM
adaher adaher is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,471
I think a lot of the problem is illegal immigrants. If they were legal immigrants instead, a lot of problems go away, such as reluctance to report crime, working under the table, identity theft, driving without licenses or insurance, etc. But you can't just amnesty everyone without better internal enforcement because then you just end up with the same problem as before. You've just legalized several million, but you still have several million illegals too, so the same problems remain.
  #44  
Old 01-10-2018, 07:15 AM
naita naita is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 5,651
Taking the OPs question as a request for an "ought" I find that I have no clear cut opinion. I think laws should recognise a right to reside in a country somewhere on the line between:

"Entered the country illegally as an adult and have spent the entire time as a violent criminal."

and

"Had no choice in entering the country (brought in as a minor), has participated in normal society as best they can and has limited legal and/or personal ties to country of purported origin."

I also think that the tacit approval in many US industries of extensive use of low cost non-legal-resident labor puts a duty on the country to not make abrupt changes disfavoring groups who've overall contributed their share to the economy.
  #45  
Old 01-10-2018, 08:51 AM
Broomstick's Avatar
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 27,089
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
No it isnít. Governments canít own property legitimately not because they are organizations, but because they acquire property through violent expropriation instead of voluntary exchange or homesteading.
What about the Louisiana purchase or when the US bought Alaksa. Wouldn't that be legitimate in your eyes, given they involved a voluntary exchange and no violence?
  #46  
Old 01-10-2018, 09:34 AM
Velocity Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 12,182
I asked this question because there are mostly two schools of thought on illegal immigration:

1) The first, if perhaps heartless, approach is simple and clear-cut: "If you are an illegal immigrant, you have no right to be here and should be deported." Sure, there are many hypocrites, such as people who will decry this in public but hire illegal housekeepers or gardening workers in secret, but at least the argument is simple and consistent.

2) The second group is sort of hemming and hawing - "Well, it's technically illegal, but we shouldn't treat it as illegal, and these people technically don't have a right to be here, but since they've resided here a while and also are trying to make a better life and future for themselves, they also sort of do have a right to be here." A yes but not yes, no but not no logic.
  #47  
Old 01-10-2018, 09:47 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
What about the Louisiana purchase or when the US bought Alaksa. Wouldn't that be legitimate in your eyes, given they involved a voluntary exchange and no violence?
Could we all agree not to follow Will down his side track that has nothing to do with the thread topic? Just ignore him.
  #48  
Old 01-10-2018, 09:59 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 78,132
Let's clarify one point. There's no such thing as an illegal resident. We have a law against entering the country without proper authorization. But the crime occurs at the time and place where the person crossed the border. Nobody is committing a crime simply by living in the United States.

Let's use two people as examples, Bob and Joe. Bob stole a car back in 2003. Joe crossed the border illegally in 2003. Neither man has broken any laws since 2003. We should not act like Joe has been on a fifteen year crime spree.

We should treat Joe the way we treat Bob. Yes, they both committed a crime fifteen years ago and they should be appropriately punished. But there should be some acknowledgment for the crime-free years that have passed since the crime occurred. Make them pay a large fine, give them several hundred hours of community service, maybe even put them in jail for thirty days. And then let it go; they were punished for the crime they committed fifteen years and now they can go back to the normal lives they've been living since 2003.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 01-10-2018 at 10:00 AM.
  #49  
Old 01-10-2018, 10:03 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 18,184
This question raises the difference between legal and equitable concerns.

Certainly, at law, in most jurisdictions it doesn't matter how long a person residing in a country illegally has been there.

The question though is whether it should matter - because after a certain point, it may be more disruptive to society as a whole to have a person residing illegally deported, than to somehow regularize their situation.

Problem is the concern that such a rule would basically encourage law-breaking. A similar concern is raised by limitation periods - that if you 'get away' with an offence for so long, you effectively 'get away' with it forever.

Limitation periods raise other, different concerns as well (fading memories, disappearing evidence).
  #50  
Old 01-10-2018, 10:15 AM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Indian Land, S Carolina
Posts: 13,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Let's clarify one point. There's no such thing as an illegal resident. We have a law against entering the country without proper authorization. But the crime occurs at the time and place where the person crossed the border. Nobody is committing a crime simply by living in the United States.
The word "illegal" is not synonymous with "criminal." It is correct to assert that it is not a crime to reside in the US without proper permission. The penalties for such residence are civil in nature (deportation and bar on re-entry), not criminal (jail, etc.). But being in the country without proper permission violates the law (which is why there are civil penalties for it). Thus, it is illegal to reside here without permission.

It is, therefore, correct to say that someone is illegally residing in the country. It is, of course, not completely correct to say that they are an "illegal" resident, since acts are illegal, not people. But trying to assert that they are not doing anything "illegal" by being here without proper permission is an incorrect statement.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017