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  #1  
Old 01-11-2020, 12:20 AM
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What is your opinion of this comment: consentual sex and rape


"Men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape."
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:27 AM
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Reported for subject change. Should be concensuial sex and rape.
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Old 01-11-2020, 04:00 AM
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Bullshit.
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Old 01-11-2020, 04:14 AM
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I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to me or anyone that I know. I can only assume that the OP sees some merit in it because their experience is different.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:19 AM
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Bullshit.
Seconded, and it makes me think the OP is fishing for rage.
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Old 01-11-2020, 04:36 AM
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Considering people get sent to prison for rape, it's total BS.

And now I fully expect page and pages of thoughtful, polite posts.
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Old 01-11-2020, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post
"Men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape."
If you had written
"Some men seem to shame women for having a lot of consensual sex almost more than they shame other men for rape."
then I and others might find much merit in the observation and discussion would focus on this unfortunate truth.

But you didn't. Discussion in the thread will focus on the fact that the comment in thread title is an exaggeration which isn't literally true.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:10 AM
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Some men doubtless think that rape is impossible since it’s a women’s duty to have sex on command.

Some men no doubt think murder is justified on the basis of might is right.

Some women no doubt agree with the above takes.

Some women undoubtedly believe that all men ar A actual or potential rapists.


Let’s not take an extreme position and consider it the default or standard belief.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:36 AM
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This is strange to me because I consider those two things in very separate categories. Rape is a violent crime against a person whereas the amount of consensual sex one has is a personal preference that is perfectly legal.

I don't think you should shame anyone over the amount of sex they choose to have but at least it makes some kind of sense even if it's wrong.

But the idea of shaming someone for rape just seems bizarre to me. It's like: "Oh Johnny raped his classmate the other day. Rather poor form, wouldn't you say? Such a scamp! His family must be so embarrassed! I say, let's not invite him to our barbecue."

My opinion of the statement in the OP is that it doesn't even make sense to me because the two behaviors are fundamentally different in the effects they have on innocent people.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
This is strange to me because I consider those two things in very separate categories. Rape is a violent crime against a person whereas the amount of consensual sex one has is a personal preference that is perfectly legal.

I don't think you should shame anyone over the amount of sex they choose to have but at least it makes some kind of sense even if it's wrong.

But the idea of shaming someone for rape just seems bizarre to me. It's like: "Oh Johnny raped his classmate the other day. Rather poor form, wouldn't you say? Such a scamp! His family must be so embarrassed! I say, let's not invite him to our barbecue."

My opinion of the statement in the OP is that it doesn't even make sense to me because the two behaviors are fundamentally different in the effects they have on innocent people.
That's pretty much exactly what I was about to write, so I will quote and agree. Took me a while to even comprehend the OP's sentence might actually mean, because it hit me like one of those questions that are specifically written to make no sense (e.g. "Which is softer: a fridge, or November?"
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:34 AM
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I think as far as proven-in-court rape goes, men in general have never been okay with that.

It used to be that things might happen that were actually pretty rape-y, but men wouldn't really criticize, maybe might even applaud the behaviour. And women definitely got shamed a lot for having too much sex. But I think both those attitudes are changing now. They probably still happen, but to a much lesser extent. Shaming women for having too much sex, is that still a thing? I feel like society has gotten over that. Calling out men for bad behaviour is something that happens more and more.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:10 PM
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I think as far as proven-in-court rape goes, men in general have never been okay with that.

It used to be that things might happen that were actually pretty rape-y, but men wouldn't really criticize, maybe might even applaud the behaviour. And women definitely got shamed a lot for having too much sex. But I think both those attitudes are changing now. They probably still happen, but to a much lesser extent. Shaming women for having too much sex, is that still a thing? I feel like society has gotten over that. Calling out men for bad behaviour is something that happens more and more.
This.

As for fathers who think it's their duty to be the guardian of their daughters' chastity or even safety...I've never thought that was healthy, nor especially prudent. What happens when this girl who has always had a protector no longer has one? I mean, that's exactly the opposite of teaching them that their body is THEIR body to give or protect as they see fit; and it doesn't teach them what a predator looks like and how to deal with one. Stewpid.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:18 PM
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That is total crap. Any man I know whom ever committed rape would get no pardon from me or most other men. We do not laugh or joke at the subject.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:33 PM
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That is total crap. Any man I know whom ever committed rape would get no pardon from me or most other men. We do not laugh or joke at the subject.
What about the guy who tells jokes about getting women "liquored up"?
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:37 PM
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That is total crap. Any man I know whom ever committed rape would get no pardon from me or most other men. We do not laugh or joke at the subject.
As has been said several times in this thread already, nobody is claiming that most men would excuse or refuse to condemn the commission of a rape that they consciously recognized to be rape.

The point is that there are an awful lot of sexual assaults on non-consenting women that many men fail to recognize as rape, and that's the stuff that the rapists often get a pass on. (From men and women both, I should add. Socially conditioned sexism and disregard for women's autonomy influences attitudes and awareness in women as well as men.)
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Old 01-11-2020, 07:38 PM
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The point is that there are an awful lot of sexual assaults on non-consenting women that many men fail to recognize as rape, and that's the stuff that the rapists often get a pass on. (From men and women both, I should add. Socially conditioned sexism and disregard for women's autonomy influences attitudes and awareness in women as well as men.)
If that's what the statement is about, then it is very poorly worded and IMO it would be better if it just plainly described the specific failure of men to recognise cases of rape.

Talking about 'failure to shame' if the issue is actually 'failure to recognise' is just adding an extra layer of abstraction to the issue.
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Old 01-11-2020, 06:32 PM
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And WTF is “rapey”? It’s either rape or it’s not.
No consent=rape, consent=not rape.
What Kimstu said. The guy who talks about taking women out and getting them "liquored up"; the guy that women in the group avoid because he's "hand-sy". The guy who tells stories about sexual conquests that are probably/hopefully lies, because they sound like rape--stories of tricks, lies, manipulation. Much, much less so these days, but when I was a teen, that dude was . . . tolerated. Maybe not approved of, exactly, but no one told him his stories were gross, no one kicked him out of the party when women complained he was "handsy" with them, everyone just decided the stories are made up or highly exaggerated, because it's easier.


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This.

As for fathers who think it's their duty to be the guardian of their daughters' chastity or even safety...I've never thought that was healthy, nor especially prudent. What happens when this girl who has always had a protector no longer has one? I mean, that's exactly the opposite of teaching them that their body is THEIR body to give or protect as they see fit; and it doesn't teach them what a predator looks like and how to deal with one. Stewpid.
The whole system of "male guardian of the woman's chastity" is that good girls, girls who deserve protection, will always have it: dads and brothers when young, husbands and sons later. If a woman doesn't have this, she doesn't deserve it. There's something lacking or flawed in her that she doesn't inspire it, or she must have done something awful to have lost it. So violating her is fundamentally different from violating a woman who is "someone's wife/daughter/sister".
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:47 AM
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I think Weedy is dead on. When I was growing up, in the late 90s, pretty rapey behavior was at least tolerated. It was outright celebrated in movies and pop culture, and while the sa came sort of thing in real life might make dudes uncomfortable with their friend, it wouldn't be a reason to actually cut him out of their social circle. But being a slut could close doors.
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Old 01-11-2020, 04:49 PM
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I think Weedy is dead on. When I was growing up, in the late 90s, pretty rapey behavior was at least tolerated. It was outright celebrated in movies and pop culture
This. The point is not that most men would consciously think "Wow, that guy is actually a rapist, but eh, no big deal, I'm okay with that". I don't think anybody is making that claim.

The point is that a lot of aggressively non-consensual sexual behavior on the part of men, at least up until very recently, has simply not been culturally perceived as rape, even when the law would consider it such. Remember the character in the 1984 movie Revenge of the Nerds who disguises himself as the boyfriend of his crush in order to trick her into sex? Yup, that's actually rape. Did the moviemakers present it as rape, did audiences view it as rape, did anybody shame the character who committed it? Nope.

The issue is not that men consciously approve of the crime of rape: the vast majority of men don't. The issue is that men (and women too, naturally) are routinely socialized to consider that many, many, many situations where a man has sex with a nonconsenting woman simply don't "really count" as rape.

And they're also socialized to consider that sexual promiscuity in a woman is bad and "slutty", whereas sexual promiscuity in a man is allowable and virile. Which is how you get a lot of men more readily shaming women for "sluttiness" than shaming other men for rape. They're just socially conditioned to find "sluttiness" easier to spot than many rape situations are.
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:05 PM
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It is a total bullshit statement. It's something that someone posted on Facebook and I disagreed with.
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Old 01-11-2020, 01:22 PM
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It is a total bullshit statement. It's something that someone posted on Facebook and I disagreed with.
At the risk of hijacking the topic, I cannot recall a single thing said on Facebook, that was worth repeating/sharing. Seriously, why even?

/hijack
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:06 PM
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"Men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape."
Among my reactions to this statement are:

1. "Cite?" I.e. Who is saying this, and what are they basing it on?

2. To "shame" other men for rape seems... disproportionate. If I knew that a man was a rapist, I wouldn't say, "Tsk tsk, he should be ashamed of himself." I would say, "Holy crap, he raped somebody. He should be locked up."

3. I'm curious: Do men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than other women shame women for having a lot of consensual sex?

Last edited by Thudlow Boink; 01-11-2020 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 01-11-2020, 05:02 PM
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3. I'm curious: Do men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than other women shame women for having a lot of consensual sex?
I'm not sure, but AFAICT, it's more usual for men than women to be outright hypocrites about it.

That is, women who don't object in principle to a lot of consensual sex, and/or who engage in a lot of consensual sex themselves, typically don't disparage other women for having a lot of consensual sex.

But there are a lot of men who have or want to have a lot of consensual sex, who will do all they can to encourage women to have a lot of consensual sex with them, and then join right in with their male friends in making fun of the woman they just had sex with, for being "slutty".

Again, it's the societal double standard that holds that sexual promiscuity in a woman is bad and "slutty", whereas sexual promiscuity in a man is allowable and virile. Women have always had to worry that complying with a man's earnest pleas for sex will end with his subjecting her to humiliation and contempt, which is why "will you respect me in the morning?" was already a catchphrase back in your great-grandfather's day.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:05 PM
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Among my reactions to this statement are:
4. Whoever originated this statement is apparently a big believer in shame, because it comes across as an attempt to shame men for whom they do or do not shame.
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Old 01-11-2020, 01:59 PM
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And WTF is “rapey”? It’s either rape or it’s not.
No consent=rape, consent=not rape.
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Old 01-11-2020, 02:36 PM
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And WTF is “rapey”? It’s either rape or it’s not.
No consent=rape, consent=not rape.
I think it's a term for sexual harassment in the form of catcalling, groping, etc. Sometimes, groups of men would find this a fun thing to do.
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Old 01-11-2020, 05:55 PM
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Look at the stereotype of the gun-toting father who has assigned himself responsibility for protecting his daughters’ precious virginity.

Does this father make it his responsibility to keep his sons in line? I don’t know of any pop culture tropes featuring fathers who violently threaten their own sons with violence for sexually predatory behavior. If they are out there, maybe someone can share them? In the absence of such tropes, it certainly sends the message “sexual daughters=horrific; sexual sons=not a problem whatsoever”.

When you layer on the message that “boys who have sex with daughter are inherently predatory as nature has decreed”, this results in the normalization of sexually predatory male behavior. The boy who tries to get his date as drunk as possible so he can put the moves on her is just acting like a horn dog, not a rapist. His conduct isn’t shamed the same way the girl who is outed as sleeping with him is.

Attitudes are changing but not enough to make the OP’s quote complete bullshit.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:30 PM
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I don't agree at all. If the average man is told, "Who do you despise more, a woman with a hundred sex partners or a male rapist?" he'd say the latter.
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Old 01-12-2020, 08:56 AM
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I don't agree at all. If the average man is told, "Who do you despise more, a woman with a hundred sex partners or a male rapist?" he'd say the latter.
Even if you were to use the worst possible slur words to describe the woman in your question, I'm fairly sure the answer will still be the latter.
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:12 AM
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Even if you were to use the worst possible slur words to describe the woman in your question, I'm fairly sure the answer will still be the latter.
But, as has been explained, that's a strawman of a characterization of the original sentiment. There's a lot of stuff that is "rape" that doesn't get a man labelled a rapist. There can be all kinds of rumors of sexual impropriety on the part of a man---he's handsy, he's pushy, he likes to get girls really drunk--that are ignored, tolerated, or disbelieved in a way that rumors about a woman--she blows guys on a first date, she fucked half the soccer team, she sleeps with married men--are believed, repeated, and social consequences are imposed.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:17 PM
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But, as has been explained, that's a strawman of a characterization of the original sentiment.
The original statement misrepresents itself. That's not my fault.

Want to make an argument that men don't properly recognise rape in all its forms? Fine. Make the argument; don't obscure it under some bullshit nonsense comparison about 'shaming'.
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Old 01-12-2020, 05:26 PM
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The original statement misrepresents itself. That's not my fault.

Want to make an argument that men don't properly recognise rape in all its forms? Fine. Make the argument; don't obscure it under some bullshit nonsense comparison about 'shaming'.
It's not an argument; it's a pithy saying, a quip. But even a moment's reflection over what it could mean would suggest it probably isn't defining rape as "men understood as having committed rape".

I mean, do you agree with what I think it the very obvious sentiment conveyed by the quip? That traditionally (and this is changing), there are many types of rape--like spousal rape, rape by deception, rape by intoxication--that were treated as less shameful than promiscuity by women?
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:49 PM
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Interesting discussion.
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:45 PM
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First off, pardon me to other Dopers, but this was an off-board issue that Leaffan has decided to bring here - I imagine I will get a warning, but since he has decided to continue with needling a survivor, I think it is worth it

In most countries, rape is a crime punishable by various terrible sentences, including death.

But it remains next to impossible to prove. Even when the victim does everything right, it still is next to impossible to prove. Ask most cops, lawyers and they will tell you the same thing. The stats are pathetic - out of ever 100 sexual assaults, six are reported. One MAY get a conviction.

(Anecdotally - when we do report, we often get to hear various versions of “It could not POSSIBLY have been So and So, he is such a NICE guy/good guy/has a wife and daughter/etc.” Because a “good guy” would NEVER rape someone - never taking into account that SOMEONE has to be assaulting these people if 1 out of 6 women and 1 out of 33 men are being raped. Predators are rarely the creepy guy in the bushes, it’s the really charming guy that always makes you laugh when you are on the golf course that you need to watch)

So, yep. Rape is terrible. Absolutely. So much worse than a woman having sexual appetites. Agreed.

But rape victims are rarely believed.

Ask any woman if she has ever hear rumours about herself as a slut/whore - that is generally believed with little to no proof. Hell, I came back with the reputation of being a “mattress”, “whore” several times, which is so weird, since I never actually had any kind of sexual contact with anyone on course. But I still got to carry that for years. I was 17 years old, but sure. Whore. Or hey, more recently, in my child’s school.

And no one ever questions if those stories are true.

But you knew all of this, because we already debated this, remember? When you compared sexual assault and slut-shaming to saying all women were gold-diggers, right?

Because that is basically the same thing. Apples to apples.

Leaffan, I am so happy you were able to get the validation you obviously felt you needed from a message board that has been criticized so many times for having a sexist view point. Yes, it was an inflammatory post, but the fact that you felt right away that you needed to defend “Men” rather than ask why I would post it should give you pause, shouldn’t it?

I hope you feel better, your ego stroked, your wound licked.

Because you were cut off from the conversation before several very loud and angry women that are still healing from EXACTLY what the post details came after you.

I changed my mind, by the way. Not about the post. About you.

You are not a “nice guy”. You are an oblivious, angry and bitter old man that cannot see that arguing that this does not exist against someone that LITERALLY HAS TOLD YOU THEY EXPERIENCED IT is cruel and inhuman.

Take care, you misogynistic (bad word - redacted).

Try not to trip over that enormous sense of entitlement and privilege. I hope it compensates for the many ways that you are lacking as a human being.

Last edited by Poysyn; 01-11-2020 at 10:50 PM. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 01-12-2020, 09:39 AM
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The president is the president, y’all. I’m just saying. Almost half the country supports a man who has more rape accusations against him than any elected officials before him, but that hasn’t gotten anywhere close to being impeached.

But try to imagine a female president guilty of even the crime of infidelity, and it’s very difficult.

It is not surprising that the opinions in this thread seem split by gender lines.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:17 AM
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Comment seems like a bit of hyperbole, highlighting the rape-tolerant nature of our culture. This should be highlighted, again and again, until our culture and society aren't so tolerant of rape (and rape-adjacent things like sexual assault, groping, and even harassment).
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:29 AM
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The discussion is illuminating, to say the least. In Shagnasty's apology thread, a woman observed there was also a gender split- (some) men didn't know what he was even referring to, while (some) women knew exactly what he was referring to. After that statement was made, several male posters did weigh in. #NotAllMen i guess.

Society has, in the very recent past, been accepting of rapey behavior. Sure, not if labeled as "rape" but there's a lot of behaviors that are just... Fine. It's just trying to get laid, she shouldnt have had so much to drink, it's not rape if it's not someone jumping out of the bushes with a knife, she shouldn't have invited him up if she didn't want sex, she eventually gave in, catcalls and harassment is really a compliment, look at how she was dressed! Sexual promiscuity was often used against victims in trial before rape shield laws. There's the study of college men who said they wouldn't "rape" but yeah, they might "force" a woman -almost a third of the residents. I'm sure all these men are social pariahs, because rape is never accepted, right? A lot of women do get shamed and cut off from social groups, while they see their rapist remain in good standing socially.
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Old 01-12-2020, 10:47 AM
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I want y'all to take a second and just think about this OP. What is this OP trying to accomplish? Before everybody gets in a knee-jerk lather at the mere mention of rape, look at the OP. Did Leaffan offer any context? Did Leaffan even attribute the "quote" to any particular person? This is a fucking hypothetical designed for one thing - to get people pissed off. It may not be exactly trolling, but it is obvious to me that that the OP is fishing for rage. Again, it may not be exactly trolling, but it is sure as hell troll adjacent.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:22 AM
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I want y'all to take a second and just think about this OP. What is this OP trying to accomplish? Before everybody gets in a knee-jerk lather at the mere mention of rape, look at the OP. Did Leaffan offer any context? Did Leaffan even attribute the "quote" to any particular person? This is a fucking hypothetical designed for one thing - to get people pissed off. It may not be exactly trolling, but it is obvious to me that that the OP is fishing for rage. Again, it may not be exactly trolling, but it is sure as hell troll adjacent.
I don’t see why anyone would be outraged at the quote. It’s a bit of rhetoric aimed at highlighting a perceived double standard. And? That’s like 85% of content from social media. Like any statement pulled out of context, it has to be interpreted cautiously.
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Old 01-12-2020, 11:35 AM
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I want y'all to take a second and just think about this OP. What is this OP trying to accomplish? Before everybody gets in a knee-jerk lather at the mere mention of rape, look at the OP. Did Leaffan offer any context? Did Leaffan even attribute the "quote" to any particular person? This is a fucking hypothetical designed for one thing - to get people pissed off. It may not be exactly trolling, but it is obvious to me that that the OP is fishing for rage. Again, it may not be exactly trolling, but it is sure as hell troll adjacent.
Well, I think post #29 provided some context (approx. 12 hours later).

Given that, Leaffan's motives don't appear to be entirely pure. With what little context there is, seems he's inserted himself into a conversation and made it about himself and his opinions on the subject. Got his ass handed to him. Then went off sulking and butt-hurt, looking for sympathy in a relatively disingenuous way.

In both instances, what he should have said, was nothing.
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Old 01-12-2020, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Well, I think post #29 provided some context (approx. 12 hours later).

Given that, Leaffan's motives don't appear to be entirely pure. With what little context there is, seems he's inserted himself into a conversation and made it about himself and his opinions on the subject. Got his ass handed to him. Then went off sulking and butt-hurt, looking for sympathy in a relatively disingenuous way.

In both instances, what he should have said, was nothing.
I admit that I just skiimmed the thread before posting. I completely breezed over post #29. My fault, should have read everything, etc. etc.

But, heh, after you pointing this out, I actually like the OP even less. Hah! Screw that guy.

Last edited by armedmonkey; 01-12-2020 at 01:23 PM.
  #42  
Old 01-12-2020, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armedmonkey View Post
I admit that I just skiimmed the thread before posting. I completely breezed over post #29. My fault, should have read everything, etc. etc.

But, heh, after you pointing this out, I actually like the OP even less. Hah! Screw that guy.
He doesn't stand out as a bad guy as a poster in my mind; He seems fairly benign. I just think he showed poor judgement on this issue. Perhaps it's a sign of a deeper issue given the sports team he eponymously supports.
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  #43  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
He doesn't stand out as a bad guy as a poster in my mind; He seems fairly benign. I just think he showed poor judgement on this issue. Perhaps it's a sign of a deeper issue given the sports team he eponymously supports.
Don't worry, I have a very short memory. In fact, to be honest, I had to scroll up to remember the guy's name.
  #44  
Old 01-12-2020, 11:02 AM
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What is your opinion of this comment: consentual sex and rape
"Men shame women for having a lot of consensual sex more than they shame other men for rape."

What is your opinion of this comment: abortion and the death penalty
"People are more likely to condemn murderers than they are to condemn doctors who kill babies"

What is your opinion of this comment: immigration and genocide
"Aboriginal people are better off adapting to the status quo for the good of society"

What is your opinion of this comment: vaccines and civil rights
"The right of the mother not to vaccinate her kids supercedes all health concerns."

What is your opinion of this comment: Dorothy and The Wizard of OZ
"It is natural for a farm girl to be sexually attracted to a straw man"
  #45  
Old 01-12-2020, 04:49 PM
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Meh. I wasn't really fishing for anything. I was just looking for opinions.

I disagreed with someone on Facebook and wanted to see what the rest of you thought. That's basically it.
  #46  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post
Meh. I wasn't really fishing for anything. I was just looking for opinions.

I disagreed with someone on Facebook and wanted to see what the rest of you thought. That's basically it.
But without context. That's the key thing. By itself, the OP confused some people, ticked off others because it was unclear.

Without context or your Humble Opinion, how could the rest of us think anything illuminating? Why would you even ask?
  #47  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:28 PM
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Well, I didn't want to inject my opinion into the original post.
So here's the thing:
I totally disagree with everything in that OP. In fact I feel offended by it . It's total bullshit and possibly applies to one percent of the male population.

And I definitely have a sheltered, white, middle-classed privileged viewpoint. I get that.

Last edited by Leaffan; 01-12-2020 at 05:30 PM.
  #48  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:46 AM
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nevernind,

Last edited by armedmonkey; 01-14-2020 at 03:49 AM.
  #49  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:52 AM
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No, wait...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaffan View Post
Well, I didn't want to inject my opinion into the original post.
So here's the thing:
I totally disagree with everything in that OP. In fact I feel offended by it . It's total bullshit and possibly applies to one percent of the male population.

And I definitely have a sheltered, white, middle-classed privileged viewpoint. I get that.
BOOOO!!! Bad. Just Bad. You STARTED this freaking thing. What OP?!!! WHOSE OP?! I know damn well what your intentions are here. As I said before, this isn't trolling, exactly, but it is sure as hell troll adjacent. You offered nothing in this this thing, just dropped a bomb and acted like you had nothing to do with it. You wanted people to dance, and you got it.

Last edited by armedmonkey; 01-14-2020 at 03:55 AM.
  #50  
Old 01-12-2020, 05:36 PM
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BUt you made the original post when you posited about it without expressing your own opinion...like you're chumming for replies.

Last edited by chela; 01-12-2020 at 05:39 PM. Reason: derp sea fishing
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