Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:38 AM
lingyi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 1,712

TSA require your U.S. driver's license to have a star to fly in 2020...


Just heard from my boss that TSA will require driver's licenses to be REAL ID complaint to fly in 2020. The identifying mark will be a star on the top right of the ID.

Hmmm...remember the last time a star was used to identify people???

Edit: https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzanne.../#72cfa2ec7e92

Last edited by lingyi; 05-25-2019 at 01:39 AM.
  #2  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:46 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
This again? It's been happening next year since the Bush administration, and has been delayed every time. Though nearly every state is now in compliance, so maybe they'll actually do it this time.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 01:48 AM.
  #3  
Old 05-25-2019, 01:50 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,295
Which states aren't in compliance yet?
  #4  
Old 05-25-2019, 02:50 AM
panache45's Avatar
panache45 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: NE Ohio (the 'burbs)
Posts: 43,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
Hmmm...remember the last time a star was used to identify people???
Will some of us get a pink triangle?
  #5  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:05 AM
Helena330's Avatar
Helena330 is offline
Mere Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Near Seattle, WA, USA
Posts: 3,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Which states aren't in compliance yet?
WA, for one. We were having all kinds of PSA's a few months ago. Now, nothing.
  #6  
Old 05-25-2019, 04:16 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
Just heard from my boss that TSA will require driver's licenses to be REAL ID complaint to fly in 2020. The identifying mark will be a star on the top right of the ID.
Hmmm...remember the last time a star was used to identify people???
The star does not identify the person, it identifies the license as being REAL ID compliant. The person is not "REAL ID" compliant. The ID is. If the star actually identified something about the person as opposed to the ID itself, you might have a point. Should we just avoid star shapes altogether for the rest of civilization? I heard Hitler wore shoes. We shouldn't wear shoes anymore.

At any rate, if you don't want to use an ID card with a star on it, you don't have to. The TSA will still accept a passport book or passport card, just as they always have. No yellow stars on those. And it's not just the TSA. It's every Federal agency--to include the military. A license will not be acceptable to enter a military installation unless it is RealID compliant. So, if you want to drive on a military base for an Air Show after 2020, and your license is not RealID compliant, you will need your license and a passport. A few years ago, before the amnesty period was extended, there was a problem with friends and family from states RealID non-compliant states visiting their relatives on military bases. They weren't allowed to enter without a passport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm
Which states aren't in compliance yet?
Alaska only got on board last month. A few years ago, before the federal government extended the amnesty period, in addition to the small problem with friends and family visiting as previously mentioned, there was a much larger problem in the fact that Alaskans could not enter the base without a passport. Soldiers could no longer bring their dates on to post. Certain civilian workers could not enter post. The problem didn't last long, as the amnesty period was extended in short order.
  #7  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:08 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 31,961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Which states aren't in compliance yet?
Pennsylvania just began offering compliant driver's licenses. They're a pain in the ass to get, so I'll just use my passport. You'd think a passport would be enough to qualify for the new DL, but it's not.
  #8  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:30 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Pennsylvania just began offering compliant driver's licenses. They're a pain in the ass to get, so I'll just use my passport. You'd think a passport would be enough to qualify for the new DL, but it's not.
Why would someone think that? A passport doesn't prove residency and doesn't have your SSN on it. The passport is enough to prove who you are, but you will need another document(s) to prove where you reside. You should present proof of SSN as well, but they do allow you to simply sign an affidavit swearing that your SSN is in fact the number you've given.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 05-25-2019 at 06:35 AM.
  #9  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:35 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Which states aren't in compliance yet?
According to this site, these states have been given extensions through October 10, 2019:

New Jersey
Oklahoma
Oregon
Kentucky
Maine
  #10  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:44 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Why would someone think that? A passport doesn't prove residency and doesn't have your SSN on it.
But why do you need proof of residency and your SSN to interact with the federal government using a drivers license but not a passport? Surely, to upgrade your drivers license to passport-level validity, a passport should be sufficient.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 06:46 AM.
  #11  
Old 05-25-2019, 06:57 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 31,961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
But why do you need proof of residency and your SSN to interact with the federal government using a drivers license but not a passport? Surely, to upgrade your drivers license to passport-level validity, a passport should be sufficient.
Exactly.

So, I'll just use my passport for domestic flights.
  #12  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:00 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
But why do you need proof of residency and your SSN to interact with the federal government...
You don't.

Every states' driver's license contains an address. The Federal Government basically told the states that, since they've been including this information on the license, they need to start actually verifying the information. The Federal government doesn't need your proof of residency on an ID in order to interact with them. All they require is a federally valid ID. That could be a passport book, a passport card, or a military ID card. None of those contain an address.
Since there is no Federal ID card, and since state driver licenses have become the de facto ID cards across the country, the federal government has agreed to accept them as valid forms of identification, provided the information on them is actually validated by the state. If every state ID card and license did not already include an address, then that requirement would likely not have been included in the legislation. Since every state included an address on its license, the federal government simply required them to verify it. It seems reasonable to me.
  #13  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:02 AM
puzzlegal's Avatar
puzzlegal is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,382
Yes, what, exactly, is the purpose of making sure the federal government knows where you live? (And can't that change the day after you get the driver's license?) And why is social security number needed for anything other than being paid?

This seems like a very stupid regulation, unless i am missing something big.
  #14  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:09 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Since there is no Federal ID card, and since state driver licenses have become the de facto ID cards across the country, the federal government has agreed to accept them as valid forms of identification, provided the information on them is actually validated by the state.
But why are they basing acceptance on validation of information they don't use?

Either the verified address is an important security measure that should be mandatory on all compliant documents, or it's not and you shouldn't need to bring all that BS to the DMV to get a REAL ID license. The fact that you can be accepted into the higher tier of citizenship, eligible to do exalted functions like use mass transit and visit public property, without verifying your address means it's not actually necesssary.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 07:12 AM.
  #15  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:10 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Yes, what, exactly, is the purpose of making sure the federal government knows where you live?
The federal government does not care, and they would be more than happy for everyone to just use a Passport Card as their identification card. There is no reason to get a State ID card at all.
However, if someone wants to drive a vehicle, they will need a state driver's license. For various reasons, including knowing where to send tickets, states require an address. People who want to use their State-level identification to interact with the federal government need to have an ID that conforms to the same level of scrutiny as one obtained from the federal government. When forcing all of the states to conform to a standard for authenticating the identity of its card holders, the feds basically said, "Oh, and that other information you're putting on the card (ie. the address) needs to be validated as well.
I'm not sure the actual purpose of providing an SSN. But I know that you don't actually have to present the card to obtain a RealID.
  #16  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:17 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
But why are they basing acceptance on validation of information they don't use?
They're not. If that information were not already included on the license/ID card of all 50 states, it likely would not have been part of the RealID requirements.
But, since every single state has that information, the federal government said the states need to verify it.

You guys seem to be looking at the whole situation like this:

"The federal government will not accept a state ID card unless it has a verified address on it! That's crazy, because there isn't even an address on my passport."

That's not really what's going on here. The federal government is refusing to accept a state ID card unless it is RealID compliant, because that's the only way to ensure that state has used the same federal-level standards of identifying the ID holder. It just happens to be a coincidence that RealID compliant licenses and IDs also include a residency address (because states what to track that information), and that address had to be confirmed because the feds don't want unconfirmed information on the RealIDs.
  #17  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:25 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon
The fact that you can be accepted into the higher tier of citizenship, eligible to do exalted functions like use mass transit and visit public property, without verifying your address means it's not actually necesssary.
Start here:
Does the state have a legitimate reason to maintain your residency address in their database? I can think of several legitimate reasons. I think you can as well, so I will move on to the next point.

Since the state requires that information, the state IDs and licenses have that information on them.

Some people want to use their state level ID to interact with the federal government.

The federal government has proclaimed, "Okay. We will accept your state ID card, provided you actually verify the information. If you can't conform to these minimal standards of verification, then your ID cards are suspect, and we can't trust them."

The feds also mandated certain security features and anti-counterfeiting measures, that further ensure the ID holder is the person he/she claims to be. An ID card that is not RealID compliant may or may not have these same security standards. So the federal government will not accept it. It's not the address they care about.
  #18  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:29 AM
puzzlegal's Avatar
puzzlegal is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,382
My passport does have my address in it. I wrote it in by hand, in the place provided, after it was issued. No one verified it.

It was incredibly useful, however, when I accidentally left my passport in a cab, after returning from an international trip. The cab driver turned it over to the police, and they wrote me a letter.

So "you need to verify everything there" doesn't seem to be a requirement for federal ID, and seems stupid for "real ID". I imagine it's also a problem for people who don't have fixed homes, and perhaps for people who are dependants or guests and don't have bills sent to their place of residence.
  #19  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:33 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Yes, the Real ID regulations do say that the Real ID regulations are sensible and logical and correct. It would be surprising if they didn't.
  #20  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:40 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
This discussion reminds me of conversations with gun buyers that I used to have back when I sold firearms. Before RealID legislation, The ATF Form 4473 required that only that I verify the purchaser via a valid, government-issued photo identification card. The key word there is "valid". In many states, the driver's license becomes invalid 10 days after a change of address, if the card is not updated to reflect the new address. That license could not be used for identification. But, a government-photo identification card that didn't even contain an address could be used instead.

Here is a fable to illustrate the point:
I once had a situation where the person's address on the form did not match the address on his license. When questioned, he admitted that he hadn't had a chance to update it in the last month. I explained to him that I would not be able to use that license to identify him, and asked if he had any other means of identification with his picture on it.
He happened to have a pool pass issued by the city. The pool pass included his picture, had not expired, and was issued by the city government. Even though it was a cheaply constructed of laminated paper, was hand-written (not typed or computer generated), and the edges were separating, it was still a (1)valid, (2)government-issued, (3)photo identification. It did not contain an address, so it didn't matter that his address had changed since being issued the pool pass. I was able to sell him the firearm and complete the form using the pool pass instead of the driver license.
  #21  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:43 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Another regulation that's correct according to itself.
  #22  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:45 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
My passport does have my address in it. I wrote it in by hand, in the place provided, after it was issued. No one verified it.

It was incredibly useful, however, when I accidentally left my passport in a cab, after returning from an international trip. The cab driver turned it over to the police, and they wrote me a letter.

So "you need to verify everything there" doesn't seem to be a requirement for federal ID, and seems stupid for "real ID". I imagine it's also a problem for people who don't have fixed homes, and perhaps for people who are dependants or guests and don't have bills sent to their place of residence.
The address that you hand wrote, is used for the exact purpose as you described in your story. It's to help return the lost passport to you. Passport holders are told to write this information in pencil. Not ink.

If you actually think that this hand written, penciled, information provided by the individual carries the same implied authenticity as an address on a driver's license, then I don't think I know how to respond to that.
  #23  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:47 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Finding the tiniest loophole available to hand out guns based on someone's frayed handwritten pool pass proves that it's right to have arbitrary standards in other areas, such as for what documents you need to provide to get airplane-level citizenship.

Good lord.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 07:49 AM.
  #24  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:50 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Another regulation that's correct according to itself.
But the point is that it's not the address per se. It's the validity of the document, which is affected by the information contained on it. I'm not trying to argue that the regulation is morally or even logically correct. I'm trying to counter one argument here:

The federal government needs your verified residency address on state IDs or they won't accept it because they want/need your address data for.... reasons. Oh, and big brother!

Just use a federally issued ID, like a passport card, and you'll be fine. I guess. The state is still going to collect and verify your address if you want a driver's license. So this whole notion that, "I'm going to fly with my passport instead of my driver's license!! bwa ha ha. That will show The Man." I just don't get that sentiment. You're still going to have to provide your information to the state database that is shared federally.
  #25  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:52 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Finding the tiniest loophole available to hand out guns based on someone's frayed handwritten pool pass proves that it's right to have arbitrary standards in other areas, such as for what documents you need to provide to get airplane-level citizenship.

Good lord.
No. It proves that there is a necessity to standardize federally accepted ID cards. That standardization is the whole purpose of the RealID act. Once in effect, a RealID compliant ID will be required to purchase a firearm. Not just any government issued ID. You guys are all focusing on airplanes and airline travel, but this Act has ramifications and justifications that go much further than simply getting on an airplane.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 05-25-2019 at 07:55 AM.
  #26  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:58 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
The state is still going to collect and verify your address if you want a driver's license.
I've never verified my address with my state's DMV. I wrote it on the form and they accepted it, and they'll continue to accept it if I renew to another second class license (although this would not be the case if I was getting a new license, from scratch). To get a first class airplane-qualified drivers license, I'd have to show, for instance, my passport AND some other BS like a utility bill I could whip up in Microsoft Word, even though the passport is valid for the same Real ID purposes by itself.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 08:01 AM.
  #27  
Old 05-25-2019, 07:59 AM
thorny locust is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 722
I wonder whether there isn't selective enforcement.

New York started offering two levels of Real ID recently, and my license was up for renewal. I got the lower level (suitable for domestic flights and entering buildings/bases, but not for crossing borders, and cheaper) because I have a passport, which I don't routinely carry or want to routinely carry but could use if I intended to cross borders. I came prepared with current driver's license, passport, social security card, and two bills with my address on them.

The DMV used the first three items, but didn't ask for proof of residence. When I asked about it, they said my old driver's license was good enough -- but the thing was over 9 years old, and while I am still living in the same place, I could have easily moved a dozen times over that time span. They had sent me a renewal notice to that address, but someone else living there could have taken in the mail and given it to me; and the instructions I found online had said to bring two recent items for proof of address, and not mentioned that one.

Possibly relevant information, and I have no idea which parts of it might apply: I am white, female, in my 60's, live in an area in which the county seat qualifies for 'small town' contests, and it's possible the clerk recognized me from somewhere (see item 4) though if so they didn't say so.
  #28  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:03 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Yes, the Real ID regulations do say that the Real ID regulations are sensible and logical and correct. It would be surprising if they didn't.
Do you actually hold the position that information on state IDs and licenses should not be uniformly verified in order to be federally accepted as a means of identification? Do any of you actually believe that?

If you do think that they should be uniformly verified, and since they all have address on them, why shouldn't the states be required to verify the address? I am interested in understanding this. But if really seems logical that if states are going to include information on their IDs, that information should be verified.
Those of you who disagree with this. Is it because there is some fundamental right that you feel is being violated? Or do you just think that it is too inconvenient, and not worth the trouble. Is that the argument? That the benefit to the government and society is not worth the inconvenience to the individual?
  #29  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:05 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
I've never verified my address with my state's DMV. I wrote it on the form and they accepted it, and they'll continue to accept it if I renew to another second class license (although this would not be the case if I was getting a new license, from scratch). To get a first class airplane-qualified drivers license, I'd have to show, for instance, my passport AND some other BS like a utility bill I could whip up in Microsoft Word, even though the passport is valid for the same Real ID purposes by itself.
Good for you. You've showed them!
  #30  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:05 AM
kayaker's Avatar
kayaker is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Posts: 31,961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
I'm not sure the actual purpose of providing an SSN. But I know that you don't actually have to present the card to obtain a RealID.
According to Pennsylvania's REAL ID page, you need a SS Card.

Quote:
You must present your social security card when applying for a REAL ID. Your card must be original.

The name on your social security card MUST MATCH the name on your proof of identity document.

If you can't find your social security card, you can get a replacement card from the Social Security Administration at no cost, and you may qualify to order a replacement card online.
  #31  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:08 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Do you actually hold the position that information on state IDs and licenses should not be uniformly verified in order to be federally accepted as a means of identification? Do any of you actually believe that?
Sure. If a passport card without a verified address is federally-acceptable ID, then a drivers license without a verified address should be as well. I don't really care that an address is printed on the latter but not the former.

If the state wants to verify the address for its own local purposes (and it might!), fine, whatever, but yes, my position is that the feds should not require the states to verify information that they themselves do not collect for their own ID cards that grant equivalent privileges.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 08:12 AM.
  #32  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:16 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
According to Pennsylvania's REAL ID page, you need a SS Card.
Less than a month ago, my wife and I went to the DMV in Florida to get her license changed from Alaska to Florida. We had to jump through the additional hoops to get the RealID, but I was expecting it, so I made sure to bring her passport. We didn't have proof of address or her SSN though. For proof of address, the agent looked into the tax system and found my property tax records, so we were good there. For the SSN, he gave her an affidavit to sign. It basically said, "I swear under penalty of perjury that this is my true social security number..." something along those lines. We left with a real RealID, star in the corner and everything. We'll never use it to fly though, as we have passport books and passport cards and military IDs.
  #33  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:28 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Sure. If a passport card without a verified address is federally-acceptable ID, then a drivers license without a verified address should be as well. I don't really care that an address is printed on the latter but not the former.

If the state wants to verify the address for its own local purposes (and it might!), fine, whatever, but yes, my position is that the feds should not require the states to verify information that they themselves do not collect for their own ID cards that grant equivalent privileges.
Fair enough. I can agree that the verification of the address was not required to have an effective RealID system. Requiring uniformed standards for identifying the person, along with mandating security features for the ID cards would have accomplished the stated goals of the Act, and allowed the IDs to be functionally equivalent to a passport for identification purposes. We can agree on this.

However, I think that requiring states to verify residency is simply good practice that adds one additional level of authentication to the IDs with minimal inconvenience to the applicant. I don't see this as warranting the level of outrage that others do. But some people are just really scared of anything the government does that involves personal identification information.

The SSN, though. I don't know enough about the purpose of requiring it to have an opinion yet. Currently, I don't see the need or understand why it was part of the Act. But there might be something I'm missing. I won't dismiss it's purpose outright as others do, though, simply because I disagree with everything the government does.
  #34  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:37 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Well, I don't really care about having an "effective RealID system." If the law were repealed tomorrow I'd sleep perfectly soundly, and I think that if anyone really thought it was a necessity or even moderately beneficial, it wouldn't have taken 15 (or more) years to implement it. That probably does color my view of the inconsistencies, and frankly I'm not even convinced that most of the tasks on the Real ID list should be restricted based on photo ID at all, let alone super-verified ID.

But if we're going to have it, I'm going to at least roll my eyes at the inconsistencies.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 08:41 AM.
  #35  
Old 05-25-2019, 08:47 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Surely you can see the need for standardizing the quality, security, and standards of federally accepted IDs though? The alternative is demonstrated with the pool pass story--and that has been acceptable for decades.
  #36  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:15 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Surely you can see the need for standardizing the quality, security, and standards of federally accepted IDs though? The alternative is demonstrated with the pool pass story--and that has been acceptable for decades.
I'm not sure I do. The fact that the TSA and the gate guards at a nuclear bomber base both work for Uncle Sam does not convince me that they should be working off of the same ID security regulations. Identical standards for both are, IMO, a good sign that one is overly strict or the other is overly lax.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 09:18 AM.
  #37  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:18 AM
doreen is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Woodhaven,Queens, NY
Posts: 6,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
However, I think that requiring states to verify residency is simply good practice that adds one additional level of authentication to the IDs with minimal inconvenience to the applicant. I don't see this as warranting the level of outrage that others do. But some people are just really scared of anything the government does that involves personal identification information.
How minimal the inconvenience is depends on your exact situation. For example, when my son got his NYS drivers license, he was under 21, and therefore was able to have a parent go with him to DMV and sign an affidavit that he lived with the parent (with proof of the parent's residence). Had he been 22, he would have been screwed- he needed two documents from the following list :

Bank statement - he had this
Utility bill - nope
HS ID showing address with a report card issued within a year- nope. His high school ID didn't have and address and he had already been out for more than a year. Even if they accepted a college ID, that didn't have his address either.
US computer printed pay stub showing address issued within 120 days - he wasn't working.


And the thing is, they now accept printed electronic versions of documents - but how accurate the addresses on those documents are is open to question. My daughter recently moved from NY to NJ- but it would have been very easy for her to forget to change the address on her bank account. She gets her statements, etc online. Same for cell phone bills etc. The only bills that really show any connection to an address are those that involve service to a particular address- internet, cable, electric, gas, property tax. And there are still issues with those. First, they only show a connection, not residence - if I own a building with three apartments , I might get the gas bill for the entire building sent to me at the street level store I run *. Second, it's not terribly uncommon here for someone to not have any of those bills in their name - my son rented an apartment with three other people ( 4 bedrooms). Utilities were included in the rent, so the only person with a qualifying bill was the one who got billed for the internet service.


TBH my library did a better job of verifying my residence- although they wanted to see my license , they mailed me a postcard to come pick up my library card. At least they knew I could still get mail at the address I gave them.




*It's not uncommon here for the store owner to own the entire building.

Last edited by doreen; 05-25-2019 at 09:21 AM.
  #38  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:37 AM
aceplace57 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: CentralArkansas
Posts: 25,822
I quit flying a few years after 9/11 brought all the security changes.

I decided it wasn't worth getting too the airport 2 hours early and going through the TSA circus. Bastards took my grandfather's pocket knife that I had carried for 20 years.

Most of my trips are less than 500 miles. I can drive that in under 8 1/2 hours. Don't need a plane and all the bureaucratic hassle at an airport.

Last edited by aceplace57; 05-25-2019 at 09:40 AM.
  #39  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:46 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 6,439
Quote:
Originally Posted by doreen View Post
How minimal the inconvenience is depends on your exact situation. For example, when my son got his NYS drivers license, he was under 21, and therefore was able to have a parent go with him to DMV and sign an affidavit that he lived with the parent (with proof of the parent's residence).
And making people re-verify their identity and citizenship isn't necessarily an easy thing either. Not everyone has easy access to things like birth certificates and (for people who changed their names) marriage certificates, especially elderly people. This article is about voter ID, but some of the same challenges apply here too.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 05-25-2019 at 09:48 AM.
  #40  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:58 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
And making people re-verify their identity and citizenship isn't necessarily an easy thing either. Not everyone has easy access to things like birth certificates and (for people who changed their names) marriage certificates, especially elderly people. This article is about voter ID, but some of the same challenges apply here too.
Those inconveniences (marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc) are the same for a passport. I thought we were complaining about needing to show proof of address? You almost had me convinced that this was the real argument. Now you're saying that we shouldn't require people to prove who they are at all. That seems like the bare minimum requirement for issuing identification--verifying identity.
If you want to use your driver's license as a Federal ID card, then you need to establish who you are, under the same scrutiny as a passport requires.
If you don't want to use it in that manner, then you don't need to get the RealID. Just tell your state you don't want a RealID and get the license without the star. But don't complain that the federal government doesn't accept it.

Last edited by Bear_Nenno; 05-25-2019 at 09:59 AM.
  #41  
Old 05-25-2019, 09:59 AM
puzzlegal's Avatar
puzzlegal is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
The address that you hand wrote, is used for the exact purpose as you described in your story. It's to help return the lost passport to you. Passport holders are told to write this information in pencil. Not ink.

If you actually think that this hand written, penciled, information provided by the individual carries the same implied authenticity as an address on a driver's license, then I don't think I know how to respond to that.
implied authenticity? I never claimed that. I claimed that it's handy for both the passport and the license to reflect my address, but there's no critical need for either to. If they have the wrong address, I don't get my passport back, or the ticket doesn't get mailed to me (and i might lose my license.) I see no need to verify either. And i don't see why, "it's printed!" makes such a huge difference to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Do you actually hold the position that information on state IDs and licenses should not be uniformly verified in order to be federally accepted as a means of identification? Do any of you actually believe that?

If you do think that they should be uniformly verified, and since they all have address on them, why shouldn't the states be required to verify the address? I am interested in understanding this. But if really seems logical that if states are going to include information on their IDs, that information should be verified.
Those of you who disagree with this. Is it because there is some fundamental right that you feel is being violated? Or do you just think that it is too inconvenient, and not worth the trouble. Is that the argument? That the benefit to the government and society is not worth the inconvenience to the individual?
I think it's vastly inconvenient. It took my mother an extra few weeks to get a new license, and a great deal of hassle to collect the relevant documents. I don't have a social security card. I lost it decades ago. I'm not looking forward to having to deal with the paperwork to get a new one. And I have a house and lots of bills. Many people have no easy way to prove residence. Some don't HAVE a fixed residence. Should they not be allowed to fly? Should they be second class citizens every time they produce ID? Why? What purpose is served that is so valuable that most of us are inconvenienced and some are screwed? All you've said is "don't you want consistency? Don't you want every printed item to be verified as true at the time it was printed?" And my answer is, "no, why should i care about either of those?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Well, I don't really care about having an "effective RealID system." If the law were repealed tomorrow I'd sleep perfectly soundly,...
Yup. I, too, will sleep perfectly soundly it this law goes away before being implemented.
  #42  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:34 AM
doreen is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Woodhaven,Queens, NY
Posts: 6,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
Those inconveniences (marriage certificate, birth certificate, etc) are the same for a passport. I thought we were complaining about needing to show proof of address? You almost had me convinced that this was the real argument. Now you're saying that we shouldn't require people to prove who they are at all. That seems like the bare minimum requirement for issuing identification--verifying identity.
If you want to use your driver's license as a Federal ID card, then you need to establish who you are, under the same scrutiny as a passport requires.
If you don't want to use it in that manner, then you don't need to get the RealID. Just tell your state you don't want a RealID and get the license without the star. But don't complain that the federal government doesn't accept it.
I don't have a problem with the idea of verifying identity. I have a problem with the statement that it's a "minimal inconvenience" to get the documents required for a real ID/passport when until fairly recently , many people didn't need such IDs. Even now, there are people who don't need them - until they do. And there they are at 60 or 70 trying to locate birth certificates and marriage certificates and divorce decrees from decades ago. I'm not saying it's impossible- but it can be too time-consuming and expensive to be fairly described as a "minimal inconvenience."
  #43  
Old 05-25-2019, 10:39 AM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Finding the tiniest loophole available to hand out guns based on someone's frayed handwritten pool pass proves that it's right to have arbitrary standards in other areas, such as for what documents you need to provide to get airplane-level citizenship.

Good lord.
I once lost my photo ID while traveling. I got to the airport early and psychologically prepared for uncertainty and frustration.
The high resolution photo I had of my primary photo ID were not acceptable, they wouldn’t even look at them. They reviewed several forms of secondary ID but still wanted something, anything, with a photo.
Several years before I had done some work at a construction site and the construction company had issued me a photo ID, no info on it except my name and my clients name.

When I pulled that from my wallet they were very pleased and after a thorough search I was allowed to board the plane. I’m pretty sure the reaction would have been the same if it had been an old battered pool pass.

I still think the “something, anything, with a photo” requirement was strange, but that seems to be how they roll,

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 05-25-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #44  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:08 AM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW.
Posts: 12,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
According to Pennsylvania's REAL ID page, you need a SS Card.
Dang. I have seen my social security card in at least 30 years.
  #45  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:12 AM
Procrustus is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Pacific NW.
Posts: 12,113
I just signed for for Clear. At the airports they’re operating, I don’t have to show any ID. Will that change?

Last edited by Procrustus; 05-25-2019 at 11:14 AM.
  #46  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:17 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by doreen View Post
I don't have a problem with the idea of verifying identity. I have a problem with the statement that it's a "minimal inconvenience" to get the documents required for a real ID/passport when until fairly recently , many people didn't need such IDs. Even now, there are people who don't need them - until they do. And there they are at 60 or 70 trying to locate birth certificates and marriage certificates and divorce decrees from decades ago. I'm not saying it's impossible- but it can be too time-consuming and expensive to be fairly described as a "minimal inconvenience."
It seems to me, that the documents that are most difficult to obtain, are the documents proving identity--birth certificate, marriage certificate, etc. These documents have always been required for federal-level identification, such as the passport book and the passport card. The federal government can and should require that level of verification for any ID that it might accept in the course of business.
If someone doesn't want to use their state issued ID card or driver's license to interact with the federal government, then the whole thing is a moot point. If they do want to identify themselves to the federal government, then they either need to get a federal level form of identification, or a state ID that complies with RealID standards. Either way, they're going to have to dig out birth certificates and marriage certificates, etc.
Describing the RealID process as minimally inconvenient, I'm talking about the additional paperwork like proof of address (your earlier example not withstanding). The identity paperwork would be required, regardless. So the fact that finding that paperwork is a terrible burden to some people isn't really relevant. It would be difficult regardless.
  #47  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:28 AM
DummyGladHands is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,077
I recently had to renew my drivers license because I hit a javelina while driving. Long, convoluted story. It seems to me they wanted a local utility bill with my name and address, I don't have that, can't get it. So passport for me. How do I get a passport card, googs keeps bring up weird ass sites for me.
  #48  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:36 AM
Bear_Nenno's Avatar
Bear_Nenno is offline
Endowment Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Bavaria
Posts: 8,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by DummyGladHands View Post
I recently had to renew my drivers license because I hit a javelina while driving. Long, convoluted story. It seems to me they wanted a local utility bill with my name and address, I don't have that, can't get it. So passport for me. How do I get a passport card, googs keeps bring up weird ass sites for me.
It's the same application process as the renewing passport book. Complete a Form DS-82, and mail it in with your passport book, the fees, and a photograph. They will return your passport book and send you the passport card in separate mailings.
  #49  
Old 05-25-2019, 11:41 AM
naita is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Norway
Posts: 6,522
I had to get a US drivers license last fall. The DMV would not accept my green card confirmation letter as proof of address. It's printed on special stock with all kinds of fine patterns and crap and show that the feds have vetted me up and down and halfway to Sunday, but no.

They did accept a printout of my bank account statement, because those are impossible to forge, I guess?

Since they require two pieces of mail for the real ID, and only one for the regular license, and since I have to carry my green card anyway, I decided I didn't care.

I just don't do things by regular mail, and utilities are in my wife's name ...

*grumbles about backwards, analog countries*
  #50  
Old 05-25-2019, 12:04 PM
silenus's Avatar
silenus is offline
Isaiah 1:15/Screw the NRA
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 51,233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
Dang. I have seen my social security card in at least 30 years.
California at least lets you use SS card, 1099 form, paycheck stub with full SSN, and a few others. Like you, I haven't seen my card in decades. Like 8 houses ago.

Sigh. Just another bit of bullshit if you want to fly.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017