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  #601  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:00 AM
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Her whole point was not to write them ALL off as pond scum.
I know, but that point was lost (obviously) and would have been lost in spite of any disclaimers. Using the word was a mistake, but she was hated before she used it. It was a convenient tag to attach to her. After all, people believed she was capable of running a child sex ring in a pizza restaurant. <shrug> One word wouldn't have made any difference.
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  #602  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:04 PM
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Yeah.

The weird thing is that she was hated previously in the '90s, but became really admired while she was Sec'y of State. Too bad she couldn't hold on to that mojo.
  #603  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:14 AM
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In the year 2040, 16% of the populace will have 84% of the Senate representing them, 84% of the populace will be represented by 16 people.

That's broken. Period. Full stop.
But this is what was originally intended in your constitution. The US Senate represents the states, not the populace.
  #604  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:41 AM
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The ratio of the populations of the largest and smallest states in 1789 was nowhere near what it has now become.
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  #605  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:46 AM
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And government at all levels, including the electorate, was in the hands of the "right" people: land-owning white men. We have a more evolved understanding of the nature and importance of democracy now, though.

Also, please note that the discussion is about what system we should have, not what we do have. We already know that part, thank you.

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 06-12-2019 at 11:47 AM.
  #606  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:37 PM
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But this is what was originally intended in your constitution. The US Senate represents the states, not the populace.
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The ratio of the populations of the largest and smallest states in 1789 was nowhere near what it has now become.
Agreed. I'll add that those ratios were also never envisioned by the framers of the constitution.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:47 PM
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Agreed. I'll add that those ratios were also never envisioned by the framers of the constitution.
In 1790, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1790_United_States_Census

Penn=110,788
Dela=11,783

So, a Senator was worth ten times in Delaware than Penn.

Not as big of a gap as today (60 or so times CA- Wyo), but they were well aware of this issue, and it was considered a feature, not a bug. They wanted it that way, at least the small states.
  #608  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:48 PM
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Then I concede the point.
  #609  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:54 PM
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In 1790, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1790_United_States_Census

Penn=110,788
Dela=11,783

So, a Senator was worth ten times in Delaware than Penn.

Not as big of a gap as today (60 or so times CA- Wyo), but they were well aware of this issue, and it was considered a feature, not a bug. They wanted it that way, at least the small states.
So? They were wrong. About this. About slaves. About a lot of things. Hell, the first thing they did was amend the fucker 10 times.

Just because their 4-page compromise draft government which had to be bickered and agreed-upon by 9 18th-century agrarian states has this as their principle, doesn't make this imbalance any less unstable for our 21st-century post-industrial hyperpower.

Last edited by JohnT; 06-12-2019 at 06:57 PM.
  #610  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:55 PM
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So? They were wrong. About this. About slaves. About a lot of things. Hell, the first thing they did was amend the fucker 10 times.

That was part of the compromise.
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Old 06-12-2019, 07:00 PM
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Exactly. The damn thing is too rickety for today's world and is growing more imbalanced by the day.
  #612  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:30 PM
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Then I concede the point.

Conceded too easily! Huge difference between 10-to-1 and 60-to-IMO. What percentage of the Senate did the 16% of the population in the smallest states control then?
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  #613  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:10 PM
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Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.

This is after Trump's lawyers put forth the argument in court papers that only the executive branch, i.e. not Congress, can "try to prove that the President broke the law".
  #614  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.

This is after Trump's lawyers put forth the argument in court papers that only the executive branch, i.e. not Congress, can "try to prove that the President broke the law".

WTF? I know for some professions, one has to re-qualify after a certain number of years to ensure you are up-to-date and, of course, still competent. Is that the case with lawyers? There is no way someone who believes such nonsense is a competent lawyer.
  #615  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:38 AM
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To quote Joyce Vance (who was one of the people testifying yesterday):
Quote:
This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever.
  #616  
Old 06-13-2019, 12:51 AM
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Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.
More and more becoming my favourite (well at least most confounding) power couple.
  #617  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:27 AM
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To quote Joyce Vance (who was one of the people testifying yesterday):
Quote:
This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever.
That's the plan.
I fully expect Trump to refuse to accept the results of the next election, with tweets of "Voter Fraud" and "Fake News", lawsuits and Executive Privilege. "I have proof on this paper that the results are fraudulent! Reports! Confessions! No, you can't see it...Executive Privilege! It's from the DOJ!"
Whether anyone will do anything about it...
  #618  
Old 06-13-2019, 04:52 AM
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More and more becoming my favourite (well at least most confounding) power couple.

It's kind of amazing that Trump hasn't fired Kellyann over this. I guess he is really that grateful to her for helping him engineer the 2016 upset? Or more likely (since he doesn't have a loyal bone in his body), he wants to keep her around to help him win reelection before jettisoning her.
  #619  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:12 AM
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That's the plan. I fully expect Trump to refuse to accept the results of the next election, with tweets of "Voter Fraud" and "Fake News", lawsuits and Executive Privilege. "I have proof on this paper that the results are fraudulent! Reports! Confessions! No, you can't see it...Executive Privilege! It's from the DOJ!"
If only it were just the President and tweets - except that it won't be just the President protesting with a bunch of tweets. It will be the entire Republican party, which has bought into authoritarianism just as much as Trump has. With right wing radio, right wing TV, and right wing social media, they have created a right wing ecosystem of information that peddles the notion that white christians (or whites and/or christians) are victims of an illegitimate political and social coup from foreigners and the Godless, soulless, elitist left. Over the summer of 2020 they will begin peddling conspiracy theories about how it's the Democrats are trying to steal their country and their democracy - whatever that may mean - away from them - it is they who are the real victims, and that extreme measures must be implemented to safeguard it.

That is why I don't think it's enough for Biden or any Democrat to simply win by two or three states with a 10,000 votes separating the two. It's not just Trump; it's the entire Republican party that will be tempted to coordinate anti-democratic efforts. If the elections are close, they will try to claim fraud and then sue in federal court, tying up the election for months, trying to sow the seeds of political violence among their supporters and confusion and doubts among the more impressionable voters.

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Whether anyone will do anything about it...
If there's good news, I suspect that they might be underestimating how well that would be received by a majority of Americans. The bad news is, the right wing may simply not care what the rest of America thinks. Even worse, depending on how far they go and what tactics they resort to, some right wing republicans might assume that they're in as much political and legal jeopardy as Trump is and view a right wing takeover as necessary to ensure their freedom. It's an increasingly precarious situation.
  #620  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:15 AM
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Kellyanne Conway's husband George calls for impeachment inquiry.

This is after Trump's lawyers put forth the argument in court papers that only the executive branch, i.e. not Congress, can "try to prove that the President broke the law".
Ya gotta wonder what the pillow talk in their house sounds like...
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Last edited by ThelmaLou; 06-13-2019 at 05:15 AM.
  #621  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:41 AM
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....."This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever." -- Joyce Vance
It's the end of the Constitutional concept of separation of powers for sure. To deny congress the power of oversight is to act in complete contravention of the Constitution's core principles.

Democracy will probably continue to exist in one form or another, and for white Americans who have job security, things might seem almost..."normal." It's just that people will be suspicious of election results and doubt the legitimacy of the government, which isn't a problem for a party that seeks power for the sake of having it, but more problematic for political parties that seek legitimacy and consent to govern.
  #622  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:28 AM
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Ya gotta wonder what the pillow talk in their house sounds like...
According to the recent Wolff book (which he discusses on YouTube), Kellyanne agrees with her husband about Trump!! Supposedly this is well known to friends of the couple.

(If true, how do we explain her continued employment? She's a mole, trying to track or reduce the damage?)

Last edited by septimus; 06-13-2019 at 07:28 AM.
  #623  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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Ya gotta wonder what the pillow talk in their house sounds like...
To George? Muffled, ideally.
  #624  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:06 PM
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This, by definition, the end of democracy. If only the president can determine whether the president's conduct breaks the law, Trump can be president forever.
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It's the end of the Constitutional concept of separation of powers for sure. To deny congress the power of oversight is to act in complete contravention of the Constitution's core principles.
To paraphrase the Religious Right: The term separation of powers doesn't appear in the text of the constitution, even once.

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  #625  
Old 06-13-2019, 01:07 PM
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According to the recent Wolff book (which he discusses on YouTube), Kellyanne agrees with her husband about Trump!! Supposedly this is well known to friends of the couple.

(If true, how do we explain her continued employment? She's a mole, trying to track or reduce the damage?)
If she's a mole (or trying to reduce the damage), she's really bad at it.

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  #626  
Old 06-15-2019, 07:10 AM
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...eaching-trump/

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Pelosi has outlined an agenda of nine signature bills. Democrats have approved six of them. And Pelosi’s agenda, unlike impeachment, is popular with the public; it unites congressional Democrats and to some extent divides congressional Republicans. And these bills, as opposed to impeaching Trump, align well with what appears to be Pelosi’s broader strategy: to force GOP incumbents to vote against popular legislation in advance of the 2020 elections, protect Democrats in closely divided districts from tough votes, and keep the Democrats talking about and doing things that the public likes.
This is pretty much what my concern has been with impeachment, and why I think Pelosi's approach is the right one. The politics and the agenda are what matter more than impeaching Trump. Absent of any evidence showing widespread support for impeachment, it's really up to voters to impeach Trump now. Democrats have to make the case that their ideas are better for ordinary people, and that they are better at actually governing the country than Republicans. Jumping right into impeachment blows it all up.
  #627  
Old 06-15-2019, 09:12 AM
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If she's a mole (or trying to reduce the damage), she's really bad at it.
Scary thought of the day - what if she's really good at it?
  #628  
Old 06-15-2019, 10:25 AM
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Democrats should use this clip of McConnell.
  #629  
Old 06-15-2019, 01:48 PM
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Asahi, agreed.

The impeachment debate played out pretty intensely last night on Maher, BTW.
  #630  
Old 06-16-2019, 03:29 PM
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Even if Chump cannot be successfully impeached, highlighting his unethical and criminal activity could spur a heavier Democratic turnout in 2020. I just hope the Dem candidates don't waste all their time shouting what everyone already knows, that Chump is bad.
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  #631  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:02 PM
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Fox News poll:
Quote:
Do you think the Trump campaign coordinated with Russian government in 2016?
Yes 50%
No 44%

Should Trump be impeached?
43% Yes, impeach him and remove him from office
7% Yes, impeach him but don't remove him from office
48% No
  #632  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:21 PM
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Here's an official Fox News source for the polls. Instead of using a headline along the lines of "More Americans believe Trump should be impeached than believe he shouldn't be" or "Half of Americans think Trump should be impeached", Fox have highlighted a different poll question, "Voters doubt impeachment will happen", which is not a very meaningful or significant poll question, since it's dependent on the whim of one person - Pelosi - who could change her mind at any time.
  #633  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:15 PM
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If the polls are accurate and reflect a shift, then I think this is proof that Pelosi's slow-cook impeachment approach is actually working. Everyone knows that the threat of impeachment is on the table. And one by one, committees are conducting their work methodically. They're calling witnesses, they're getting subpoenas for evidence, and they're threatening contempt when they don't comply. And when they still don't comply, they sue in court. It takes energy to defend against the relentless onslaught of the oversight and judicial process. It takes energy that, I think, team Trump will eventually start to run out of, if Democrats can play this the right way.

But the real reason is because Trump is screwing up and Pelosi is not going to let House Democrats take the blame for derailing Trump's agenda just because they're out for revenge. Impeachment is still very much an option, but she's going to wait until it's clear that the voters have started to abandon him FIRST. She wants to give voters more time to watch Trump fuck up with what he says and what he does. She wants voters to see more unhinged threats of trade wars with Mexico - all the better knowing that Republicans in the Senate and the US Chamber of Commerce will be the one to slap his ass back down. She wants voters to watch more absolutely unhinged, off-the-chain interviews in which he actually admits on a live mic that he's fine with foreign interference...it kinda proves what Mueller and the 18 Angry Democrats have been saying, right?

No offense to Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, who is obviously a brilliant woman and future star in Democratic politics, but Nancy Pelosi knows that this isn't some boycott; this is a political war. War is complex. War requires all the calculation and strategy of a military general. I won't say that Pelosi won't occasionally miscalculate, but I think she knows what she's doing and she knows how to defeat Trump.

Last edited by asahi; 06-17-2019 at 08:17 PM.
  #634  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:47 AM
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https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...-trump-1365840

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The House Foreign Affairs Committee is quietly amassing documents on allegations of politically motivated retaliation at the State Department. It’s looking into whether Trump has violated foreign emoluments and conflict of interest rules, and lawmakers are working to find out more about the president's relationship with Russian President Vladimir Putin and how Trump leads American foreign policy behind the scenes — all without the fanfare associated with the other committees’ work.

The panel has secured wins on a number of fronts, and aides and lawmakers alike attribute that to the under-the-radar support they’re getting from Republicans, many of whom have grown exasperated with the president’s decisions on foreign policy and national security issues.
This is how you build the case for impeaching Trump. You don't build that case by barging in and boasting that we're going to impeach the motherfucker; you approach it relentlessly, methodically, strategically. This is war. Only a fool rushes into battle. Study the opponent. Find the weakness. Find his enemies. Set up a battle plan. Wait until the enemy's energy is low. Wait until he's least prepared for the attack. And then, attack with fire and fury.

To use a boxing analogy, what Pelosi and her allies are doing is going to the body. It looks like they're not landing punches, but they're working the body in rounds 1 through 8; the uppercuts and knockout punches will come later.

Last edited by asahi; 06-18-2019 at 08:50 AM.
  #635  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:44 AM
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Good metaphor, great post.

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under-the-radar support they’re getting from Republicans
Sweet.
  #636  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:03 AM
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Here's a guy who appreciates our Nancy!

Trump defends Pelosi to Fox News' Sean Hannity
Quote:
President Trump defended House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) during a telephone interview on Fox News' "Hannity" Wednesday night.

Details: Host Sean Hannity suggested to Trump that Pelosi had lost control of the Democratic Party to progressives like Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) and Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.), saying she's the "speaker in name." But Trump replied, "I think Nancy Pelosi probably has control of it, I hear different things but I think she does. She knows what she's doing. We will see how it all comes out out."
....
Anyone care to interpret this?

I think he is afraid of her--in a good way. She won't be manipulated or messed with.
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  #637  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:44 AM
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He sees her not convening impeachment hearings. That makes her Not Sad!

Today. Which is as far as he sees.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:56 AM
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Wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago that he was talking trash about how Nancy is losing her mind or is a drunk?...

Yeah, Trump doesn't have a long strategy or a healthy fear/respect for Nancy. He simply says whatever comes to whatever is left of his diminished mental faculties.
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Old 06-20-2019, 07:59 AM
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It's brilliant the way that she has handled him. She knows that Trump's true power is in his ability to connect with people - even if they're not all necessarily nice people, she knows that he can put on a show and amuse a crowd. She also knows that he doesn't always understand the consequences of his decisions and that he's rash and impulsive. There's nothing amusing or entertaining about telling 800,000 people they're not going to get a paycheck for a month. It was brilliant how she let him have and own his very own government shutdown. He kept looking for a face-saving way out and she didn't give it to him, which also earned her some street cred with the party's hardcore leftists who didn't want her to give in on wall funding - she didn't. That's why when I hear freshmen representatives like AOC and Talib publicly air their frustrations with her I wanna just tell them to shut the hell up. They just got there and she's been doing this since they were in daycare.

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  #640  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:02 AM
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Wasn't it just a couple of weeks ago that he was talking trash about how Nancy is losing her mind or is a drunk?...

Yeah, Trump doesn't have a long strategy or a healthy fear/respect for Nancy. He simply says whatever comes to whatever is left of his diminished mental faculties.
Pretty much this. ^ He doesn't know how to fight her - like at all. He was lashing out at her because he was humiliated. The sting of the comments has worn off, I guess.
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:16 AM
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It's brilliant the way that she has handled him. ...
Makes me think of Muhammed Ali's famous, "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." Or as Niles Crane rephrased it, "Float like a lepidoptera, sting like a hymenoptera."
Quote:
That's why when I hear freshmen representatives like AOC and Talib publicly air their frustrations with her I wanna just tell them to shut the hell up. They just got there and she's been doing this since they were in daycare.
This, this, and more this.
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  #642  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:33 AM
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Cosigned.


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Pretty much this. ^ He doesn't know how to fight her - like at all. He was lashing out at her because he was humiliated. The sting of the comments has worn off, I guess.

It's also important to remember that he is not a disciplined, on-message spinner like Kellyanne. He still has a craving that way predates his political candidate years to go on TV and play the "savvy pundit" role. So if he thinks she has a strong control over her party, even if he wishes otherwise, he has the impulse to show that he knows what's up.
  #643  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:33 AM
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Tom Steyer's new impeachment ad that will run on 'Fox & Friends' in D.C.

I think it's a good idea, although I don't think it's a particularly compelling ad. I think the ad would be better just showing video clips, with a voiceover when needed, rather than mainly showing Tom Steyer sitting in a chair talking.
  #644  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:50 AM
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Here's a guy who appreciates our Nancy!

Trump defends Pelosi to Fox News' Sean Hannity

Anyone care to interpret this?

I think he is afraid of her--in a good way. She won't be manipulated or messed with.

I think its a variation of Rubio's "Let's dispel this fiction once and for all that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing." He's trying to tar Pelosi and the mainstream Democrats to their more radical elements.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:13 AM
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I think its a variation of Rubio's "Let's dispel this fiction once and for all that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing." He's trying to tar Pelosi and the mainstream Democrats to their more radical elements.
This implies that Trump has guile. Trump is guileless. And too stupid to know the meaning of the word. He has two modes of operation. Either he instinctively & pathologically lies, or, he projects his own unfiltered fears & deep character flaws.
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  #646  
Old 06-20-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
This implies that Trump has guile. Trump is guileless. And too stupid to know the meaning of the word. He has two modes of operation. Either he instinctively & pathologically lies, or, he projects his own unfiltered fears & deep character flaws.
Pretty much this. He's as deep as a paper plate. There's no there there.
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  #647  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:30 PM
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Even if we bought into Trump's guile, Pelosi's not going to throw him a life preserver. The House is going to continue methodically doing its work - she will see to that. And that will drive Trump insane, and he will do something radical to feed raw meat to his base.
  #648  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:32 PM
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In a couple years, we may look back at this time as the calm before the mass-shootings storm.
  #649  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:50 PM
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The only thing keeping me from throwing my hands in the air and abandoning the Democrats during this debacle of deadline after deadline and sternly worded letters is that I accept that Nancy Pelosi has forgotten more about politics than I ever knew, and I'm hoping that her instincts here are better than mine.
I'm starting to reconsider my opinion from a month ago. In the three months since the Mueller report, the Democrats have managed to get no fact witnesses to testify, and have enforced no subpoenas. If there is a strategy here, I'm at a loss for what the hell it is.
  #650  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I'm starting to reconsider my opinion from a month ago. In the three months since the Mueller report, the Democrats have managed to get no fact witnesses to testify, and have enforced no subpoenas. If there is a strategy here, I'm at a loss for what the hell it is.
Politico:
Quote:
House Democrats are planning to file a lawsuit within days to force former White House counsel Don McGahn to testify on Capitol Hill — and they say Hope Hicks’ reluctant testimony Wednesday will help deliver them a crucial win in court.

Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler said Hicks’ blanket refusal to tell lawmakers about her tenure in the West Wing is the real-life illustration Democrats needed to show a judge just how extreme the White House’s blockade on witness testimony has become.

“It very much played into our hands,” Nadler said in an interview in his Capitol Hill office Thursday. “It’s one thing to tell a judge blanket immunity is not a right thing. It’s another thing when a judge can see what that means in actuality, and how absurd it is.”
...
The New York Democrat said he’s confident that a win in the McGahn case would create a precedent that forces the White House to back off its resistance to Democrats’ investigations and permit other key Mueller witnesses, like Hicks, to talk to lawmakers.

“That court case is key to everything,” Nadler said.
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