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  #501  
Old 11-03-2017, 07:12 PM
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Taking part in it is treason.
Covering it up during or after the fact is treason.
Keeping silent about it is treason.
Lying about it is treason.

They ALL need to go to prison.
Prison, hell. Trump wants a wall? Give it to him. Then stand him in front of it. Along with every other traitorous sonofabitch he's brought onboard.
  #502  
Old 11-03-2017, 07:30 PM
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Rather weak sauce, Silenus. I would sentence him to poverty, let him live in the kinds of places he and his father slumlorded. Buy his dinner at the Dollar Store, take the bus to the doctor. Shooting is too quick and easy.

But then, I am more vindictive than you. Try not to be so good a person, won't you?

Last edited by elucidator; 11-03-2017 at 07:30 PM. Reason: D'oh! A dear, a female dear....
  #503  
Old 11-03-2017, 08:14 PM
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Rather weak sauce, Silenus. I would sentence him to poverty, let him live in the kinds of places he and his father slumlorded. Buy his dinner at the Dollar Store, take the bus to the doctor. Shooting is too quick and easy.

But then, I am more vindictive than you. Try not to be so good a person, won't you?
I agree. Beans and rice.

Unfortunately, the charge of treason may not fit as it's defined. 'Aid and comfort to the enemy'. It may be hard to define Russia as the enemy. I wouldn't want to.

Trump has admitted to Obstruction of Justice on national television. That should be plenty. But of course the craven republicans won't act on that.

Some worry about what his base will do if Trump is out of office, and Pence takes over. I don't care. I believe that justice should be quick and complete. It's the only way to keep this shit from happening again and again.
  #504  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:51 PM
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Slate has an interesting bit of speculation on Mueller's strategy. Nothing too new but details on a possible avoidance of some easy charges that could be prosecuted by the Feds or NY State. Avoiding them as a Fed charge makes a pardon less likely to work in Manfort's favor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slate
Mueller knows that Trump can pardon Manafort (or any defendant) in order to relieve the pressure to cooperate with Mueller and to keep them quiet. But Mueller also knows that presidential pardons affect only federal crimes and not state-level crimes. On the one hand, double jeopardy rules under the Fifth Amendment prevent a second prosecution for the same crime, but the doctrine of dual sovereignty allows a state to follow a federal prosecution (and vice versa). So in theory, Manafort and Papadopoulos canít rely on Trumpís pardons to save them even after a conviction or a guilty plea.

But in practice, state rules can expand double jeopardy protections and limit prosecutions. In fact, New York is such a state. New York is the key state for Mueller because New York has jurisdiction over many alleged or potentially uncovered TrumpĖRussia crimes (conspiracy to hack/soliciting stolen goods/money laundering, etc.), and New York state Attorney General Eric Schneiderman and New York district attorneys are not politically constrained from pursuing charges.
  #505  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:08 PM
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And what if the receipt of those stolen emails was in exchange for sanctions relief? What would that be called?


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It could be called a violation of the Logan Act, but I'm guessing it's more likely that it would be simple conspiracy.


Conspiracy to do what?

Doesn't there have to be an underlying offence which is the purpose of the conspiracy?
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  #506  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:50 PM
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Trump has admitted to Obstruction of Justice on national television. That should be plenty. But of course the craven republicans won't act on that.
Hard to believe that this gets lost in the shuffle.
  #507  
Old 11-03-2017, 11:00 PM
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Hard to believe that this gets lost in the shuffle.
Yes.

Bueller? Bueller?
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  #508  
Old 11-04-2017, 01:36 AM
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The indictments are brought on behalf of The United States, not Mueller. They don't go away if he goes away. Responsibility for the prosecution would go to someone else in the Special Counsel's office, or - if the whole thing is annihilated - elsewhere in the DOJ.
Thanks (and Folacin) - that's pretty much what I would have thought.

So my follow up question then is, is there any restriction on who in the Special Counsel's office can bring an indictment in the first place? Could they, in fact, have a shelf full of 90% there just-need-some-extra-polishing potential indictments that, if anyone tries to stop the office finishing them, could potentially be brought as-is?

Because that would be great insurance. Much better than relying solely on Congress
  #509  
Old 11-04-2017, 09:51 AM
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I disagree. I think Mueller is going to indict Donald himself. When the seriousness of the charges is revealed, McConnell and Ryan are going to go to the White House and tell him the jig is up. They may fear his base, but let's face it that base isn't going to start embracing Democrats. They'll piss and moan and whine about it, but in 2020 they'll believe that the Democratic nominee is the spawn of Satan just like they always do and they'll vote Republican, just like they always do. So the GOP leaders will rise to the occasion and lance the boil.
I think you're right, because there are some Republicans who are either centrists and will go Democrat, or are principled and will stay home. It only takes a few % of those to swing an election.

They will require a clear-cut case, but I think they'll do it if they have to.
  #510  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:15 AM
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I think you're right, because there are some Republicans who are either centrists and will go Democrat, or are principled and will stay home. It only takes a few % of those to swing an election.

They will require a clear-cut case, but I think they'll do it if they have to.
George HW Bush voted for Clinton. George W Bush left the Presidental spot blank and then voted for all of the other republicans.
  #511  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:26 AM
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Not that I doubt you, but that pretty much screams for a cite.
  #512  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:38 AM
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Not that I doubt you, but that pretty much screams for a cite.
CNN
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In the end, neither Bush voted for their party's nominee. George H.W. Bush confirmed that he voted for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. George W. Bush told Updegrove he left the top of the ballot blank.
"I voted 'None of the Above' for president, and Republican down ballot in 2016," he said.

Last edited by running coach; 11-04-2017 at 10:38 AM.
  #513  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:41 AM
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Not that I doubt you, but that pretty much screams for a cite.

http://www.businessinsider.com/georg...-trump-2016-11
  #514  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:52 AM
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A faltering, uncertain glimmer of hope shines. Some days, that'll do.
  #515  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:59 AM
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Trump has admitted to Obstruction of Justice on national television. That should be plenty.
That and "Unindicted Co-Conspirator" did it for Nixon. But those were days when honor and principle still existed in that party.
  #516  
Old 11-04-2017, 01:10 PM
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Just so we're clear, he has also admitted to collusion with Russians on television. If we had evidence that Trump emailed Putin and said "I hope you're able to find the 30000 emails that are missing" that would be hailed as a smoking gun. Not sure why it's any different that he said it from a podium.
  #517  
Old 11-04-2017, 01:21 PM
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Slate has an interesting bit of speculation on Mueller's strategy. Nothing too new but details on a possible avoidance of some easy charges that could be prosecuted by the Feds or NY State. Avoiding them as a Fed charge makes a pardon less likely to work in Manfort's favor.
Thank god the Trump team is so stupid, and thank god these crimes happened in NY state and not Alabama or Mississippi.

I do worry about the next Trump style authoritarian. What if they learn how to get around all these legal constraints. The next guy may not be mentally disabled and incompetent the way Trump is.
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  #518  
Old 11-04-2017, 01:24 PM
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Rather weak sauce, Silenus. I would sentence him to poverty, let him live in the kinds of places he and his father slumlorded. Buy his dinner at the Dollar Store, take the bus to the doctor. Shooting is too quick and easy.

But then, I am more vindictive than you. Try not to be so good a person, won't you?
Fuck that, living like that is pretty sweet compared to living in a maximum security prison.

Even if Trump does get sentenced, he will end up in a white collar prison. Which sucks, I'd rather he end up in a maximum security wing somewhere.
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  #519  
Old 11-04-2017, 02:56 PM
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Just so we're clear, he has also admitted to collusion with Russians on television. If we had evidence that Trump emailed Putin and said "I hope you're able to find the 30000 emails that are missing" that would be hailed as a smoking gun. Not sure why it's any different that he said it from a podium.
You're really not sure?

I mean, if you're just saying that hyperbolically, fine. I can type out a paragraph that explains the difference. Happy to help.
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  #520  
Old 11-04-2017, 05:39 PM
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You're really not sure?

I mean, if you're just saying that hyperbolically, fine. I can type out a paragraph that explains the difference. Happy to help.
I'm really not sure.
  #521  
Old 11-04-2017, 06:19 PM
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I, for one, am open to the interpretation that he was just being a humorless asshole trying to make a joke. With predictable results.

I think he also really believes that millions of illegal voters lost him the popular vote. And that he is a canny operator, who exploited the Russians for easy loans, and it is he that controls them. Maybe other people think the Russians were laundering money, but why should he care? He was just giving them the Merv Griffin reach-around.

Last edited by elucidator; 11-04-2017 at 06:20 PM.
  #522  
Old 11-04-2017, 09:02 PM
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Sorry, I've spent the last year on an ice floe north of Hudson's Bay. "Merv Griffin reach-around"?

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  #523  
Old 11-04-2017, 09:27 PM
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Google "Trump Merv Griffin" for more than you will ever want to know. Boiled down, an old story about Merv Griffin doing a real estate/hotel(?) deal with Trump that didn't work out so well. One story line is that Trump gave Merv a jolly good rogering, financially speaking. Shots were fired, lawyers, hired.

Further stories have the two of them publicly arguing who played top, and who bottom. Essentially, two men arguing about who was the smarter crook. Inspiring.
  #524  
Old 11-05-2017, 09:34 AM
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Mueller has an embarassment of riches to work with. Looks like Michael Flynn and his son are next to be indicted.:

"Flynn's son, Michael G. Flynn, who worked closely with his father, accompanied him during the campaign and briefly worked on the presidential transition, could be indicted separately or at the same time as his father, according to three sources familiar with the investigation.

If the elder Flynn is willing to cooperate with investigators in order to help his son, two of the sources said, it could also change his own fate, potentially limiting any legal consequences."


There is no rational explanation for all of this smoke that does not include a fire.
  #525  
Old 11-05-2017, 09:38 AM
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Mueller has an embarassment of riches to work with. Looks like Michael Flynn and his son are next to be indicted.:

"Flynn's son, Michael G. Flynn, who worked closely with his father, accompanied him during the campaign and briefly worked on the presidential transition, could be indicted separately or at the same time as his father, according to three sources familiar with the investigation.

If the elder Flynn is willing to cooperate with investigators in order to help his son, two of the sources said, it could also change his own fate, potentially limiting any legal consequences."


There is no rational explanation for all of this smoke that does not include a fire.
I was just coming in to post about this. Maybe we'll start seeing a pattern of Monday Morning Indictments. That would make Mondays more tolerable.

From NBC:
Quote:
Mueller's team is also examining whether Flynn attempted to orchestrate the removal of a chief rival of Turkish President Recep Erdogan from the U.S. to Turkey in exchange for millions of dollars, two officials said.
Government by the venal, of the venal, and for the venal.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...gation-n817666

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 11-05-2017 at 09:40 AM.
  #526  
Old 11-05-2017, 09:58 AM
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I was just coming in to post about this. Maybe we'll start seeing a pattern of Monday Morning Indictments. That would make Mondays more tolerable.
Uh oh. Sounds like somebody's got a case on Monday!
  #527  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:02 AM
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Uh oh. Sounds like somebody's got a case on Monday!
If you could just report to jail, that'd be great.
  #528  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:19 AM
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If the elder Flynn is willing to cooperate with investigators in order to help his son, two of the sources said, it could also change his own fate, potentially limiting any legal consequences."[/I]
Holy shit. I'm torn about this. On the one hand, threatening someone's child in order to get them to cooperate is a typical villain move.

On the other hand, if you're threatening the child with legal consequences for the crimes that the parent got them to commit, the parent doesn't get to complain, nor does the child, so I guess it's no longer a villain move.

And if you get your kid to commit a crime, and you refuse to cooperate even though that sends your kid to jail, you win a Worst Dad of the Decade award.
  #529  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:23 AM
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If you could just report to jail, that'd be great.
Yeah, if you could fill out your Trump Pussy Seizure report, that'd be great.
  #530  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:49 AM
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Holy shit. I'm torn about this. On the one hand, threatening someone's child in order to get them to cooperate is a typical villain move.
I'm not torn at all. He might be Flynn's child, but he's not a child. He's a grown man, and if he committed a crime then he's fair game.

Not to mention that this is the same guy who went on social media hours after shots were fired to claim that the fake Pizzagate story about Hillary Clinton still hadn't been proven false.
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President-elect Donald J. Trump on Tuesday fired one of his transition team’s staff members, Michael G. Flynn, the son of Mr. Trump’s choice for national security adviser, for using Twitter to spread a fake news story about Hillary Clinton that led to an armed confrontation in a pizza restaurant in Washington.

The uproar over Mr. Flynn’s Twitter post cast a harsh spotlight on the views that he and his father, Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, aired on social media throughout the presidential campaign. Both men have shared fake news stories alleging that Mrs. Clinton committed felonies, and have posted their own Twitter messages that at times have crossed into Islamophobia.
You know you're an asshole when your social media lies are too obvious even for the Trump administration.

Last edited by mhendo; 11-05-2017 at 10:50 AM.
  #531  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:55 AM
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But calling Trump a shitgibbon is an insult to real shitgibbons.
Which shitgibbons are you worried about offending? Ryan's troop of trained shitgibbons in the House?

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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
OK. But in case anyone else is interested and similarly unclear, I would add the following.

There were/are any number of people who would answer the following questions thusly:
  • Do you think Trump and/or his campaign colluded with the Russians? Yes.
  • Do think a fair and rigorous investigation will uncover this collusion? Most likely.
  • What do you mean when you say or think of collusion? That he/they assisted the Russians with their efforts to interfere with the election.
  • What if he/they did not "collude" but merely knew about the Russian efforts and did nothing about them, would you still support impeachment despite no "collusion"? Yes.
And this is a big Gotcha because ... ?
The House shitgibbons can impeach Trump for any crime, proved or not, or on a whim. It's no surprise that many sentient Americans hope for this.

I hope at least some Democratic Congresscritters come to Trump's defense if the shitgibbons try to impeach him. His incompetence is all that protects us from a disastrous Ryan-Pence Administration.

Last edited by septimus; 11-05-2017 at 10:56 AM.
  #532  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:56 AM
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...He might be Flynn's child, but he's not a child. He's a grown man...
Keep in mind, the Kellys are a traditional conservative American family, where the father is a figure of authority to be respected and obeyed.

Not so much in liberal families. Or so I'm told.

Last edited by elucidator; 11-05-2017 at 10:57 AM.
  #533  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:01 AM
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Holy shit. I'm torn about this. On the one hand, threatening someone's child in order to get them to cooperate is a typical villain move.
Oh, don't lose any sleep. Flynn Jr. is a demonstrably horrible human sack of garbage. In addition to being involved in all of the activities of his father, he was one of the chief architects of the pizzagate nonsense.
  #534  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:10 AM
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Holy shit. I'm torn about this. On the one hand, threatening someone's child in order to get them to cooperate is a typical villain move.

On the other hand, if you're threatening the child with legal consequences for the crimes that the parent got them to commit, the parent doesn't get to complain, nor does the child, so I guess it's no longer a villain move.

And if you get your kid to commit a crime, and you refuse to cooperate even though that sends your kid to jail, you win a Worst Dad of the Decade award.
Agree with mhendo, not torn at all. The "kid" is an adult, made his own choices and is subject to the same laws and consequences as anyone else.

If the two Flynns were unrelated, the same rules would apply: If Flynn has got something that may be helpful to the investigation, he may receive some consideration that he might not otherwise enjoy. If that happens to include leniency to his child, then that might be a desired outcome Flynn wants -- but it's unrelated to Mueller's task, which includes making deals that elicit testimony he needs.

It's no different than persons unrelated to one another when subjected to an investigation. Some will enjoy better treatment because they stepped forward first.

You've probably already noticed, the rotten apples in this investigation (Trump Jr., Flynn Jr. and Manafort Jr.) don't fall far from the diseased trees.
  #535  
Old 11-05-2017, 06:11 PM
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Remember that Papadopolous guy?

Looks like he may have met with Putin in May of 2016.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...74696470061057

I don't think the nothingburger has ever looked more tasty.

Last edited by JohnT; 11-05-2017 at 06:12 PM.
  #536  
Old 11-05-2017, 06:30 PM
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No sympathy for Flynn or his offspring. Nobody forced a former general, who later sat on the NSC, to advocate actually locking up a political opponent. Sorry but when he went there, he asked for this. No sympathy at all.
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Old 11-05-2017, 07:02 PM
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Remember that Papadopolous guy?

Looks like he may have met with Putin in May of 2016.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...74696470061057

I don't think the nothingburger has ever looked more tasty.
So, when the Trump administration said that no one had any contact with the Russians, they missed one or two people. Or at least nine.
  #538  
Old 11-05-2017, 08:06 PM
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Agree with mhendo, not torn at all. The "kid" is an adult, made his own choices and is subject to the same laws and consequences as anyone else.
Not to mention that the "kid" is in his own right the infamous "Pizzagate" white supremacist. He is not some well-meaning innocent who got in trouble merely through a filial desire to be helpful to his dad. He's been cheerfully neck-deep in this shit swamp since day 1.
  #539  
Old 11-05-2017, 08:30 PM
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Agree with mhendo, not torn at all. The "kid" is an adult, made his own choices and is subject to the same laws and consequences as anyone else.
Yeah, I guess "torn" is putting it strongly. I have this very gut reaction to telling someone, "If you don't cooperate, I'll make sure your child suffers." And Mueller appears to be doing exactly that. So my gut says, Jesus Christ, dude.

But it couldn't happen to a nicer family, literally, since a nicer family wouldn't have engaged in these sort of bullshit shenanigans. And my mind recognizes that.
  #540  
Old 11-05-2017, 08:40 PM
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I have this very gut reaction to telling someone, "If you don't cooperate, I'll make sure your child suffers."
I think what Mueller's saying is more akin to, "Help me and I'll make sure your child doesn't suffer."

Mueller wouldn't be persecuting Flynn Jr unfairly if he charged him with actual criminal charges for his actual criminal activity. If Mueller were to let Flynn Jr off, then he would be doing the Flynn Family a massive and otherwise undeserved favor. There is no reason or ethical obligation on Mueller's part to let Flynn Jr go scott free just because he was arrested in conjunction with his father's arrest. That is not "making the child suffer". That is the child getting exactly what he deserves.

If Mueller were to plant evidence or make something up, and threaten Flynn Jr with that in order to get Senior's cooperation - that would be more akin to your construction, Dorkness.

Last edited by Merneith; 11-05-2017 at 08:41 PM.
  #541  
Old 11-05-2017, 09:02 PM
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So, when the Trump administration said that no one had any contact with the Russians, they missed one or two people. Or at least nine.
Getting harder by the day to name members of the Trump cabinet that aren't involved with Russians than to name members who are.
  #542  
Old 11-05-2017, 09:43 PM
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No sympathy for Flynn or his offspring. Nobody forced a former general, who later sat on the NSC, to advocate actually locking up a political opponent. Sorry but when he went there, he asked for this. No sympathy at all.
Trump and his administration deserve the same level of compassion and dignity that they gave the Clintons and Obamas.
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:02 PM
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Trump and his administration deserve the same level of compassion and dignity that they gave the Clintons and Obamas.
Really? Can we go that low?
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:37 PM
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Not to mention that the "kid" is in his own right the infamous "Pizzagate" white supremacist. He is not some well-meaning innocent who got in trouble merely through a filial desire to be helpful to his dad. He's been cheerfully neck-deep in this shit swamp since day 1.
IIRC they tried to give Jr. a job in the White House and he was denied a security clearance.
  #545  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:08 PM
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Lawyer: Mr. Trump, I'm afraid you are the most corrupt president in United States history. Your administration has everything.
Mr. Trump: You mean I have money laundering?
Lawyer: Yes.
Mr. Trump: Sexual assault?
Lawyer: Yes.
Mr. Trump: Theft of a bulldozer from a federal construction site?
Lawyer: Uh, a little bit, yes. You also have several crimes that have just been discovered - in your cabinet.
Mr. Trump: I see. You sure you haven't just made thousands of mistakes?
Lawyer: Uh, no, no, I'm afraid not.
Mr. Trump: This sounds like bad news.
Lawyer: Well, you'd think so, but all of your crimes are in perfect balance. If you have a moment, I can explain.
Mr. Trump: Well...[looks at his watch]
Lawyer: Here's the door to your administration, see? [brings up cute little fuzz balls with funny faces from under his desk]
Lawyer: And these are oversized novelty crimes. This one's destruction of evidence, that's trespassing at a daycare center, and this cute little cuddle-bug is triple murder with a pitchfork! Here's what happens when they all try to get through the door at once.
[Stooge-like] Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo. Move it, chowderhead!
Lawyer: We call it, "Three Stooges Syndrome".
Mr. Trump: So what you're saying is, I'm indestructible.
Lawyer: Oh, no, no, in fact, even slight breeze could...
Mr. Trump: Indestructible!

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 11-05-2017 at 11:09 PM.
  #546  
Old 11-05-2017, 11:57 PM
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Didn't Ken Starr threaten to put Monica Lewinsky's Mom in jail, or something like that?
  #547  
Old 11-06-2017, 06:17 AM
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That female Russian lawyer is publicly saying that DonJr asked for fort on Hillary and told her they'd be willing to reexamine the Magnitsky Act of they won.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/a...ow-lawyer-says
  #548  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Not to mention that the "kid" is in his own right the infamous "Pizzagate" white supremacist. He is not some well-meaning innocent who got in trouble merely through a filial desire to be helpful to his dad. He's been cheerfully neck-deep in this shit swamp since day 1.
Yes, the Tu Quoque Brigade will be happy to point to some obscure comments on a YouTube, or by a Democratic Chicago precinct captain, to prove that both sides have nuts ...

But this guy was a White House Aide. His father isn't just some Brooklyn pimp ó he was the (Russia-blackmailable) National Security Adviser, for Heaven's sake,

What's the GOP's and FoxNews' take on this? Still think Mueller should be going after the Benghazi Tapes?
  #549  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
What's the GOP's and FoxNews' take on this? Still think Mueller should be going after the Benghazi Tapes?
Naw, now it's Hillary gave the Rooskis uranium!!!!! Lock her up!
  #550  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You've probably already noticed, the rotten apples in this investigation (Trump Jr., Flynn Jr. and Manafort Jr.) don't fall far from the diseased trees.
Don't forget Jared. Someone on the SDMB said earlier that he would have an easy time getting into prison - he's a legacy!
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