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  #701  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:03 PM
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... and this incompetence somehow, bizarrely, never involves countries like:

France
Senegal
Venezuela
China
Upper Volta
Switzerland
India
Thailand

No, this incompetence only seems to happen with Russians, the Russian Government, and their patsies.

But, surely, it's all just coincidence.

Last edited by JohnT; 11-10-2017 at 12:04 PM.
  #702  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:11 PM
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Certainly. In the case of everyday joe buddies with no normal reason to go to Russia, as they are in the analogy, it would be rather silly to believe that it isn't a straightforward deal for coke and C4.
I'm not completely sure what you're saying, but it's incorrect to say in the case of Trump that no one had any normal reason to go to Russia.
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1) Trump, Junior, Flynn, Clovis, etc. all seem like the sort of people who wouldn't realize that Page is a nutball and would take his PHD and assertions about his business ties seriously.
Almost certainly true in the case of the first true. Unlikely in the case of Flynn, who while he seems to be something of a shady character in his own right, has genuine senior level foreign policy experience. I don't know about Clovis.
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2) Trump's attempts to shut down the investigation.
Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, it will not have been helpful to Trump. Everyone knew this going in, even Trump.
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3) Papadop's meetings with Cyprus, Greece, the UK, Israel, etc. He certainly seems to have been being taken seriously.
The Trump campaign was, as mentioned earlier, very thinly staffed. GP may have been a relative nobody in the campaign, but it's not like there were a whole lot of somebodies above him. If a guy like that shows up and says he's on Trumps Foreign Policy Council and wants to meet with people whose job it is to meet with people in that position, they don't turn the guy down because of some calculation that the guy is probably a minor player. Especially since the US is a pretty big player on the world stage and smaller countries are eager to establish as much friendly contact as possible.
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
... and this incompetence somehow, bizarrely, never involves countries like:

France
Senegal
Venezuela
China
Upper Volta
Switzerland
India
Thailand

No, this incompetence only seems to happen with Russians, the Russian Government, and their patsies.

But, surely, it's all just coincidence.
You only find what you're looking for.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-10-2017 at 12:12 PM.
  #703  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:16 PM
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Regardless of the outcome of the investigation, it will not have been helpful to Trump. Everyone knew this going in, even Trump.
An intelligent person with a first concern for the smooth and legal functioning of the nation would be eminently concerned with an attempt by a foreign government to screw over the election. He would grab that bull by the horns and dive in with glee to find all the shit that was being pulled and make sure that it never happens again.

That does not describe Trump at all.

I have seen nothing of the Trump organization that would lead me to doubt the idea that they wanted to obtain illegal goods and are lying about it. Have you seen anything to make you doubt it?

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-10-2017 at 12:17 PM.
  #704  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:17 PM
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Look for it and prove us wrong.

Oh, wait, that would require you to do a bit of work, maybe even three Google searches. Never mind.
  #705  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:17 PM
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.You only find what you're looking for.
Ah, so you posit that this sort of stuff DOES occur with
France
Senegal
Venezuela
China
Upper Volta
Switzerland
India
Thailand


But the evil Democrats have just prevented anyone from looking. Or is it the evil media?

Or are you just a fucking idiot, grasping at straws?
  #706  
Old 11-10-2017, 12:29 PM
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An intelligent person with a first concern for the smooth and legal functioning of the nation would be eminently concerned with an attempt by a foreign government to screw over the election. He would grab that bull by the horns and dive in with glee to find all the shit that was being pulled and make sure that it never happens again.

That does not describe Trump at all.
I don't agree that any "intelligent person with a first concern for the smooth and legal functioning of the nation would be eminently concerned with an attempt by a foreign government to screw over the election" to the point of major investigations, if he thought it didn't really happen and that investigating it would sabotage his government. But I do agree that Trump is not an "intelligent person with a first concern for the smooth and legal functioning of the nation".

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I have seen nothing of the Trump organization that would lead me to doubt the idea that they wanted to obtain illegal goods and are lying about it. Have you seen anything to make you doubt it?
I don't know if they did or didn't. It wouldn't surprise me if they would want to do this. But the evidence to this point is very weak.
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Ah, so you posit that this sort of stuff DOES occur with
France
Senegal
Venezuela
China
Upper Volta
Switzerland
India
Thailand


But the evil Democrats have just prevented anyone from looking. Or is it the evil media?
I'm not sure what you mean not by "this sort of stuff". I was responding to a claim about "incompetence".

Russia is a very big deal right now so anything connected to Russia is being looked at very closely. Upper Volta is a very small deal so no one is looking into anything connected to it. For some reason you seem to be unaware of this, but it's true. Don't take my word on this - read up a bit.
  #707  
Old 11-10-2017, 01:09 PM
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Upper Volta is a very small deal so no one is looking into anything connected to it.
Probably because they changed the name to Burkina Faso in 1984.
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  #708  
Old 11-10-2017, 01:13 PM
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That's why they changed their name to Burkino Faso. They thought it might make them a bigger deal than they were as Upper Volta. Didn't work, though.

Come to think of it, you don't hear much about Lower Volta either ...
  #709  
Old 11-10-2017, 01:43 PM
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I don't know if they did or didn't. It wouldn't surprise me if they would want to do this. But the evidence to this point is very weak.
Why did Trump announce that he would be releasing the emails?

While a smoking gun is always nice, at some point you have to run the odds on all the weak evidence. If each piece of evidence is only 1 chance in 5 chance of being the worst case, but you have 20 pieces of evidence, then the odds are just as good as a smoking gun.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-10-2017 at 01:46 PM.
  #710  
Old 11-10-2017, 01:45 PM
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What are you referring to?
  #711  
Old 11-10-2017, 03:43 PM
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Trump. In the library, with the smoking gun. Wait, Trump in a library? Shit.
  #712  
Old 11-10-2017, 03:53 PM
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Trump. In the library, with the smoking gun. Wait, Trump in a library? Shit.
ROFL, you're on fire today.
  #713  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:15 AM
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Looks like we can rest easy now and Mueller can go home. Trump himself has announced the result of his own awesome investigation chops: Putin says he did not meddle in the election.

Good to know, prez, you worthless fuckwit.
  #714  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:03 AM
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Again, if I could just hear one reasonable non-collusion explanation that explains all of the available data, including Trump's undying allegiance to Putin and no one else, I might consider that there was some possibility that there is no fire behind this smoke.
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:22 AM
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That is just incredibly fucked up. US president siding with foreign murderous dictator over career civil servants.
  #716  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:32 AM
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That is just incredibly fucked up. US president siding with foreign murderous dictator over career civil servants.
I have to remember that assuming for the moment that Trump has skeletons in his closet, he knows the extent of the shitstorm that is bearing down on him. His only play is to try to deligitimize the bringers of that shitstorm in hopes of casting doubt on it with as many people as possible. He will attempt to bring down the country rather than admit defeat.
  #717  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:40 AM
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That is just incredibly fucked up. US president siding with foreign murderous dictator over career civil servants.
Worse, a US president siding with a foreign murderous dictator and foreign adversary over career civil servants who have served this country admirably for decades.
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:42 AM
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I have to remember that assuming for the moment that Trump has skeletons in his closet, he knows the extent of the shitstorm that is bearing down on him. His only play is to try to deligitimize the bringers of that shitstorm in hopes of casting doubt on it with as many people as possible. He will attempt to bring down the country rather than admit defeat.
Yes, I think that's exactly what not only Trump but the Trumpists collectively would rather do. Or to be more specific, they want to redefine what America and American values are. From Donald Trump to Roy Moore, there are absolutely no boundaries, no rules for these people. They are literally capable of anything, and that's the scary part.
  #719  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:51 AM
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Again, if I could just hear one reasonable non-collusion explanation that explains all of the available data, including Trump's undying allegiance to Putin and no one else, I might consider that there was some possibility that there is no fire behind this smoke.
1) Trump likes non-PC tyrants.
2) Putin tried to sneak people into Trump's camp.
3) Trump can't believe/admit that his team was composed of idiots that fell for it all.
  #720  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:53 AM
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That is just incredibly fucked up. US president siding with foreign murderous dictator over career civil servants.
It sickens me, the extent to which this traitorous, morally bankrupt dipshit has been allowed to tear apart the most fundamental fabric of our society: Our institutions. To malign the conclusions of all 17 intelligence agencies for the sake of saving his own skin; to gut our State Department, EPA, HUD, DOE; to shamelessly hobble our justice system by appointing baldly unqualified ideologues to lifetime positions, and to do all this with the blessing of his party... words fail me.

I did appreciate this story this morning: Mueller Team Probes Trump's Knowledge of Campaign's Russian Dealings - Reuters

I wonder if Trump will continue to claim he's not "personally" under investigation.

By the way, I appreciated your Flynn links yesterday. I was troubled by the Gulen story when it was first reported and have been aware of Flynn's vulnerability re Turkey and Russia for quite some time. Always figured he was toast, based on how much effort Trump exerted to prevent investigation into his dealings -- but it is nice to have it confirmed.
  #721  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:03 AM
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1) Trump likes non-PC tyrants.
2) Putin tried to sneak people into Trump's camp.
3) Trump can't believe/admit that his team was composed of idiots that fell for it all.
This is the best possible possibility, and it still has fire behind the smoke. And it requires me to believe that Trump was kept entirely in the dark about all of this while it was going on. Which seems comically unlikely. And also, number 2 isn't "tried", as the attempts were clearly successful (Manafort, Papadapolous, Flynn and probably others).

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Looks like we can rest easy now and Mueller can go home. Trump himself has announced the result of his own awesome investigation chops: Putin says he did not meddle in the election.

Good to know, prez, you worthless fuckwit.
Meanwhile, the Russians say the topic never even came up.

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 11-11-2017 at 10:05 AM.
  #722  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:24 AM
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This is the best possible possibility, and it still has fire behind the smoke. And it requires me to believe that Trump was kept entirely in the dark about all of this while it was going on. Which seems comically unlikely. And also, number 2 isn't "tried", as the attempts were clearly successful (Manafort, Papadapolous, Flynn and probably others).
I've been feeling like I should quote this bit from The Big Con for a while now:

A confidence man prospers only because of the fundamental dishonesty of his victim. First, he inspires a belief in his own integrity. Second, he brings into play powerful and well-nigh irresistible forces to excite the cupidity of the mark. Then he allows the victim to make large sums of money by means of dealings which are explained to him as being dishonest - and hence a "sure thing." As the lust for large and easy profits is fanned into a hot flame, the mark puts all his scruples behind him. He closes out his bank account, liquidates his property, borrows from his friends, embezzles from his employer or his clients. In the mad frenzy of cheating someone else, he is unaware of the fact that he is the real victim, carefully selected and fatted for the kill. Thus arises the trite but none the less sage maxim: "You can't cheat an honest man."


So while, fundamentally, it may be that the Trump campaign didn't set out to commit illegal acts, the fact that the Russians got in as close as they did is pretty well evidence on its own that Trump and his people are a pack of crooks. Otherwise, they simply wouldn't have bit.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-11-2017 at 10:27 AM.
  #723  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:29 AM
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Why did Trump announce that he would be releasing the emails?

While a smoking gun is always nice, at some point you have to run the odds on all the weak evidence. If each piece of evidence is only 1 chance in 5 chance of being the worst case, but you have 20 pieces of evidence, then the odds are just as good as a smoking gun.
What gets me is that we have everything but the smoking gun. We have the results of collusion in the form of Russia releasing emails and targeting voters and Trump trying (somewhat unsuccessfully so far) to ease sanctions. We have Trumpsters covering up their acts, undermining the Russia investigation and doing everything they can to make people believe it didn't happen. Lie on top of lie on top of lie.

All that we need for a smoking gun would be to find out that one American whispered to a Russian "Let's do it. You help us with Clinton, we'll help you with sanctions."

If someone whispered that to me or you, we'd have a million questions. We'd propose meetings and agreements as to what exactly that meant. But for the Trump campaign and Russia, it could be done during a handshake and we may never find out about it. Why? Because they already had numerous secret meetings with Russia about this very thing.

We may never find proof of that agreement. It's like going outside and seeing a bridge, then digging up the plans for the bridge, but we're unable to say the bridge was ever built unless we can find the paper where the mayor signed off on it.

It's frustrating for law and order types, but I imagine it must be incredibly tense for Trump supporters. They have to claim daily that that bridge that we're looking at isn't really there while secretly hoping that the signature is never found.
  #724  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:42 AM
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What gets me is that we have everything but the smoking gun. We have the results of collusion in the form of Russia releasing emails and targeting voters and Trump trying (somewhat unsuccessfully so far) to ease sanctions. We have Trumpsters covering up their acts, undermining the Russia investigation and doing everything they can to make people believe it didn't happen. Lie on top of lie on top of lie.

All that we need for a smoking gun would be to find out that one American whispered to a Russian "Let's do it. You help us with Clinton, we'll help you with sanctions."

If someone whispered that to me or you, we'd have a million questions. We'd propose meetings and agreements as to what exactly that meant. But for the Trump campaign and Russia, it could be done during a handshake and we may never find out about it. Why? Because they already had numerous secret meetings with Russia about this very thing.

We may never find proof of that agreement. It's like going outside and seeing a bridge, then digging up the plans for the bridge, but we're unable to say the bridge was ever built unless we can find the paper where the mayor signed off on it.

It's frustrating for law and order types, but I imagine it must be incredibly tense for Trump supporters. They have to claim daily that that bridge that we're looking at isn't really there while secretly hoping that the signature is never found.
Hell, you don't even need to say anything sometimes. If you know what the other guy wants and you know that he knows what you want, you can both simply collude without ever having spoken a word.

Say that I'm the President and I want to bring peace to the Middle East. My solution to this is to choose one side to win and support them in their conquest of the rest of the area. In exchange, though, I want to preserve Israel.

All I have to do is give a speech about a unified Arabian nation and how it would be so wonderful, even if there would be some initial cost. But America would support that cost. And then I fly to Israel and do a tour of all the special sites, give another speech about how important the history of the Jewish people is to the Abrahamic religions, etc.

After something like that, the various powers in the Middle East will each make some small moves, seeing if they're the chosen one, and then find out when the US supports one of them.

Positive consent is nice and all, but most of humanity was created through a process of flirting, where each person keeps upping the ante. It's a sufficient method for many purposes.
  #725  
Old 11-11-2017, 10:43 AM
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That all said, it would be interesting to run the probabilities. Maybe I'll start a thread later and have people throw in some numbers.
  #726  
Old 11-11-2017, 02:22 PM
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That is just incredibly fucked up. US president siding with foreign murderous dictator over career civil servants.
Ted Lieu is calling Trump a liar.

“I have seen the classified information on Russian hacking. @realDonaldTrump has received classified briefings. I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING," Lieu wrote on Twitter.

"Trump knows the Kremlin hacked America last year,” Lieu added, quoting a report from The New York Times that details Trump’s Saturday comments about Russian President Vladimir Putin.
  #727  
Old 11-11-2017, 02:32 PM
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Everybody knows he's lying. That is pretty much all he does.
Where is any accountability?
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:52 PM
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Everybody knows he's lying. That is pretty much all he does.
Where is any accountability?
It's not lying if he really believes it.
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Old 11-11-2017, 02:57 PM
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It's not lying if he really believes it.
I'm just wondering what he does during these classified briefings when they are telling him these things. Does he just nod his head and agree with them at the time or does he actively disagree with them?
  #730  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:06 PM
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Ted Lieu is calling Trump a liar.

“I have seen the classified information on Russian hacking. @realDonaldTrump has received classified briefings. I can tell you that @POTUS is LYING," Lieu wrote on Twitter.

"Trump knows the Kremlin hacked America last year,” Lieu added, quoting a report from The New York Times that details Trump’s Saturday comments about Russian President Vladimir Putin.
I'm glad the guy is calling it LYING, not saying something like, "disseminating false information," "making statements that fall somewhat short of the truth," and other bullshit from the Thesaurus of Euphemisms.


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I'm just wondering what he does during these classified briefings when they are telling him these things. Does he just nod his head and agree with them at the time or does he actively disagree with them?
I'm guessing he nods his head while not understanding one fucking thing they're saying.
  #731  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:07 PM
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It's not lying if he really believes it.
I don't know if he believes it or not.

But that brings up a theory of mine.
Republican voters act on what they believe, not necessarily what is true.
They believe there are hundreds of thousands of "welfare queens", so they vote against benefits.
They believe that we can't afford universal healthcare, so they vote against it.
They believe that global warming is a hoax, so they vote against it.
They believe that anyone calling themselves a Christian is honest, so they vote for them.
And the most recent belief, that Trump cares for anything but himself.

Last edited by steatopygia; 11-11-2017 at 03:08 PM.
  #732  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I have to remember that assuming for the moment that Trump has skeletons in his closet, he knows the extent of the shitstorm that is bearing down on him. His only play is to try to deligitimize the bringers of that shitstorm in hopes of casting doubt on it with as many people as possible. He will attempt to bring down the country rather than admit defeat.

To have skeletons in one's closet, one has to be ashamed of those skeletons to the point one hides them in a closet. That certainly is not Trump. No doubt his favorite game is dominos. He really does have another move, though. When corrected, he simply ignores the correction and continues with his illegal and immoral behavior. Look at his illegal renting policy and his Muslim ban.

Combine his lack of shame and his two pathetic moves and that's what drives his destruction of the country. I don't think he even realizes that other people, even a country, can be harmed. That would require the self-centered bastard to actually realize other people are people. He only cares if they are lavishing praise on him. Just look at how Xi played him.

Last edited by Monty; 11-11-2017 at 03:25 PM.
  #733  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:31 PM
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I'm glad the guy is calling it LYING, not saying something like, "disseminating false information," "making statements that fall somewhat short of the truth," and other bullshit from the Thesaurus of Euphemisms.


I'm guessing he nods his head while not understanding one fucking thing they're saying.
Don't you mean The Big Book Of Alternate Meanings?

  #734  
Old 11-11-2017, 03:34 PM
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They believe that anyone calling themselves a Christian is honest, so they vote for them.

Unless the Christian happen to be a Democrat who is Black and in elected office. There's no way those Reoublicans will believe that. It doesn't fit their narrative.

Last edited by Monty; 11-11-2017 at 03:36 PM.
  #735  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:24 PM
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Again, if I could just hear one reasonable non-collusion explanation that explains all of the available data, including Trump's undying allegiance to Putin and no one else, I might consider that there was some possibility that there is no fire behind this smoke.
Easy. As Trump and his supporters say, Lugenpresse. The press is making stuff up because they're in the bag for Hillary (you can tell it's their theory because they refer to Sec'y Clinton by her first name). Trump isn't being loyal to Putin, they just agree with each other because they're both strong, effective leaders.
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  #736  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:23 PM
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I'm just wondering what he does during these classified briefings when they are telling him these things. Does he just nod his head and agree with them at the time or does he actively disagree with them?
Those are just deep state Obama holdovers colluding with the democrats to keep America from being great again.
  #737  
Old 11-11-2017, 11:13 PM
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Mueller is building his case on multiple fronts: collusion, obstruction, tax evasion, etc. It doesn't matter which on sticks. Me, I'm betting on serious tax evasion/laundering will be the one. But hell, nothing to say it can't be all three.
  #738  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:51 AM
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It's not lying if he really believes it.
Yes it is; it’s just compounded by stupidity.
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:58 AM
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Does anyone else think that Mueller is waiting for Trump to return from his Asia trip before he drops the next big shoe? Because, you know, it wouldn't look patriotic to cause a stink when the president is out representin' America.
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:09 AM
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Does anyone else think that Mueller is waiting for Trump to return from his Asia trip before he drops the next big shoe? Because, you know, it wouldn't look patriotic to cause a stink when the president is out representin' America.
I was thinking that, not because of the political optics, but because of the danger that he would be more likely to try launching WWIII if he got in the mood to throw a tantrum while overseas.
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:21 AM
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I don't think Mueller is waiting for anything; he's probably working overtime to try to get to the bigger fish before Trump and the Republican fascist base decide to just shut down the investigation altogether.
  #742  
Old 11-12-2017, 06:25 AM
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Unless the Christian happen to be a Democrat who is Black and in elected office. There's no way those Reoublicans will believe that. It doesn't fit their narrative.
Trumpists are highly subjective people who live in almost entirely in the realm of subjectivity. Two people can say and do the exact same thing, but if it's 'the other' who says it, then it's verboten. What's frightening is that these are people who could ultimately end up hijacking government and applying the rule of law, applying the force of the courts, applying the force of the military, and otherwise creating new rules to live by.
  #743  
Old 11-12-2017, 07:01 AM
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...What's frightening is that these are people who could ultimately end up hijacking government and applying the rule of law, applying the force of the courts, applying the force of the military, and otherwise creating new rules to live by.
Aren't they already doing it?
  #744  
Old 11-12-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
I was thinking that, not because of the political optics, but because of the danger that he would be more likely to try launching WWIII if he got in the mood to throw a tantrum while overseas.
He's likely to forget where he is and call a nuclear strike on his own location.
  #745  
Old 11-12-2017, 07:44 AM
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He's likely to forget where he is and call a nuclear strike on his own location.
Or just be pig ignorant about it. Like when he arrived in Israel and declared that he had just left the middle east.
  #746  
Old 11-12-2017, 07:53 AM
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He's likely to forget where he is and call a nuclear strike on his own location.
Love it.

Does anyone know if Mueller has Trump's tax returns? Couldn't he subpoena them?
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  #747  
Old 11-12-2017, 09:02 AM
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Love it.

Does anyone know if Mueller has Trump's tax returns? Couldn't he subpoena them?
I think it's a virtual certainty that his team has been poring over them for months. Yes, he can get them as far as I know.
  #748  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Love it.

Does anyone know if Mueller has Trump's tax returns? Couldn't he subpoena them?
I know people are obsessed with the guy's tax returns, but he could be guilty of 100 financial crimes and the tax returns would not show it. You can be guiltier than hell and file a legal looking tax return with nary a single lie on it.

Donald Trump has been pulling real estate con jobs for 40 years and never once has he been indicted for a crime. He knows how to at least APPEAR above board and stay on the technically correct side of the law.
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Last edited by RickJay; 11-12-2017 at 11:58 AM.
  #749  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
Love it.

Does anyone know if Mueller has Trump's tax returns? Couldn't he subpoena them?
It's never been a confirmed fact that Mueller has Trump's tax returns, but with an idea about how a counterintelligence operation works, I'm convinced that James Comey had those tax returns in hand within weeks of the commencement of his investigation that began in July 2016. They would have been one of the first things the FBI wanted to see. Yes, they can be subpoenaed from the IRS on the basis of good cause. They would have had good cause.

It appears Mueller has been the fortunate beneficiary of a lot of work done on the investigation by Comey before he was fired, based on the speed of the Manafort/Pappadopoulos indictments. I'm quite sure the tax returns were among the first fruits of that labor. Not known for a fact, though.

Last edited by Aspenglow; 11-12-2017 at 12:08 PM.
  #750  
Old 11-12-2017, 04:19 PM
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I know people are obsessed with the guy's tax returns, but he could be guilty of 100 financial crimes and the tax returns would not show it.
what if they show he is broke?
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