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  #201  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Bullshit. You thought it was irresponsible to sell that before this outbreak
Are you now a mindreader? I've never said any such thing.
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and you know perfectly well that the cause of this outbreak can't be the traditional vape ingredients.
Except that some victims of serious lung disease reported vaping only nicotine, and there's been no scientific vindication of "traditional vape ingredients".*

*to the contrary, there's evidence of harm. For instance:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgeon General
Besides nicotine, e-cigarettes can contain harmful and potentially harmful ingredients, including:

ultrafine particles that can be inhaled deep into the lungs
flavorants such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease
volatile organic compounds
heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead
https://e-cigarettes.surgeongeneral.gov

Last edited by Jackmannii; 09-29-2019 at 08:43 PM.
  #202  
Old 09-29-2019, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Bullshit. You thought it was irresponsible to sell that before this outbreak
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Are you now a mindreader? I've never said any such thing.
So, two years ago you thought there was no moral issues with selling vape products?
  #203  
Old 09-30-2019, 09:16 AM
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So, two years ago you thought there was no moral issues with selling vape products?
Two years ago I would've been blissfully unaware there was such a thing as CBD vape products, if they even existed then. And I don't recall ever going on about the "morality" of nicotine vaping (my posts on the subject have focused on health issues).

Now that you mention it, there's something morally dubious about adult nicotine vapers strenuously resisting regulations aimed at discouraging kids from getting hooked, on the basis that their pleasure and convenience mustn't be interfered with.
  #204  
Old 09-30-2019, 03:36 PM
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Now that you mention it, there's something morally dubious about adult nicotine vapers strenuously resisting regulations aimed at discouraging kids from getting hooked, on the basis that their pleasure and convenience mustn't be interfered with.
Boy, you're right. Next time you meet someone like that, you give them a nice self righteous earful from me too! You're so good at it!
  #205  
Old 10-02-2019, 01:42 PM
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No, not at all. What's truly odd is that anyone who was hooked on cigarettes and then switched to being hooked on nicotine vaping would defiantly announce that they'd likely switch back to cigarettes if denied flavored nicotine vapes.
Who did that? That would be odd, especially since a man made of straw should stay away from fire, smoking included.

I resignedly informed that if I am no longer able to vape, then I would get my nicotine by cigarette, I am not sure why you would choose to misrepresent my statement in such a ridiculous way.

I vastly prefer vaping to smoking, but if you take that option away, I am just pointing out that I'm not very likely to quit ingesting nicotine in whatever form is left to me.

Quote:
Apparently that's supposed to make the rest of society throw up its hands in horror and say "Oh NO! Please don't do that! Look, here are some lovely watermelon and bubblegum-flavored nicotine vapes!! Come back, please!!!"
See, like I said, you want to make this about you, and I'm just pointing out that this is not about you.

Quote:
It doesn't make a whopping difference to me if nicotine addicts seek to self-destruct faster out of pique.*
Since you really really want to make this about you rather than about those affected by the decisions that you endorse, does if make any difference to you if the morbidity and mortality of respiratory illness increases because you chose to ban vaping products in a fit of reactionary pique?
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I just don't want to see the vaping industry and its Big Tobacco affiliates create a whole new generation of nicotine addicts by using flavors and deceptive advertising to entice them.
Nor do I. Don't really see what anything that you have said has to do with that.

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Given that we don't know yet exactly what constituents of vaping medium are causing serious acute lung illness (not to mention the specter of slow-developing irreversible chronic lung disorders), it strikes me as hugely irresponsible at this time to be encouraging the sale of CBD vape products.
Sounds like some regulation is in order. I'd absolutely be happier to know that the vaping products that I use have been determined to not contain any adulterants that would cause serious acute lung illness. Regulating the industry is saying, Hey, that flavor of strawberry contains this chemical, which will cause acute lung illness. and that chemical is removed from the stores. If instead of regulating the industry, you simply ban such products, then people will make their own or buy from the grey market or use things that are not meant to be used, and increase their chances of acute lung illness.

I get it, it's not about flavors, it's not about oils or about the dangers of using untested and unregulated products. It is about you wanting to ban all forms of nicotine delivery. You feel that we'd be better off is no one had access to nicotine, and you actually may not be wrong about that. But, banning things that you don't want people to use has almost never worked, and has never led to positive outcomes.

You want to keep these out of kid's hands? I can think of a bunch of things that you can do, that does not cause millions of adults to have to give up a product that they use responsibly and legally. Take Juuls out of convenience stores, and only allow vaping products to be sold in licensed vape or tobacco shops. Crack down hard on any vape shops that sell to underage individuals. If you think that the flavors are too convenient, I would completely support banning flavors sold in those prepackaged cartridges, and if it is determined to be necessary, also banning nicotine juice pre-mixed with flavors. If you are actually interested in lowering teen vaping, rather than simply banning something you don't like, I have another half dozen or so ideas of ways to lower teenage vaping, without impacting an adult's ability to legally and responsibly use a product.

Try that first. If you do, and you still find that teen vaping is too high, then we can come back and revisit it. But, that you will not try some very common sense actions that have a much higher chance of moving toward your goal, but would rather take a product that I use legally and responsibly out of my hands, you betray that your motivation is not about the children, but about using "what about the children" as an excuse to control what other adults do with and to their bodies.
  #206  
Old 10-02-2019, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Try that first. If you do, and you still find that teen vaping is too high, then we can come back and revisit it. But, that you will not try some very common sense actions that have a much higher chance of moving toward your goal, but would rather take a product that I use legally and responsibly out of my hands, you betray that your motivation is not about the children, but about using "what about the children" as an excuse to control what other adults do with and to their bodies.
You don't get it. Jackmannii has no intention of negotiating with filthy selfish addicts like us. Either you agree with whatever sweeping mindless crackdown he proposes or go fuck yourself.
  #207  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:36 PM
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I resignedly informed that if I am no longer able to vape, then I would get my nicotine by cigarette, I am not sure why you would choose to misrepresent my statement in such a ridiculous way.
Here's the statement to which I was responding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender
f you ban vaping, or make it hard or unpleasant to get, then we'll probably just go back to smoking.
That seemed to cover a lot of potential regulation, such as bans on flavoring that have been linked to teen vaping. If staying away from tobacco is important (as it should be), then such relatively mild inconveniences shouldn't impel one to resume smoking. And there are other smoking cessation products and strategies besides vaping.

The irony here is that it's vapers who want to make it all about them. Dealing with a wave of youth vaping leading to a new generation of nicotine addicts, or identifying and eliminating dangerous vape ingredients that are causing serious lung injuries and deaths - nope, can't worry about responding to these serious issues if the solutions make it "hard" or "unpleasant" for adult vapers to score their nicotine in any manner they choose.
Quote:
Regulating the industry is saying, “Hey, that flavor of strawberry contains this chemical, which will cause acute lung illness.” and that chemical is removed from the stores.
See the previous Surgeon General's link. Multiple vape ingredients were linked to pulmonary toxicity well before the current uproar, and where has the resolve been to get them eliminated? Certainly the industry itself hasn't shown real interest. Better yet, require good evidence that such substances are safe before they can be marketed.

The whining and hand-waving by vapers ("we'll just smoke instead! we'll buy stuff off the black market, and you'll be sorry!") is unpleasantly reminiscent of smokers' behavior when crackdowns on smoking in public places started to become widespread due to known risks of secondhand smoking. Gazillions of restaurants and bars were going to shut down due to crushing boycotts by smokers (according to tobacco industry and smokers' lobbying efforts). This dread consequence did not happen.* Vapers were up in arms when a ban on vaping on commercial airline flights was proposed.** Institution of the ban did not cause a big switch back to smoking because life was made more "hard" or "unpleasant" for vapers.

If most or all vape flavors are prohibited I greatly doubt there's going to be a big spike in smoking. Most people are sensible enough to take advantage of other means of obtaining their nicotine, or even getting off it entirely.

*"Almost all the reviewed studies reported, on average, no net loss and sometimes net increases in bar or restaurant sales after smoking bans went into effect."
**check out the image of Rep. Duncan Hunter defiantly vaping away in the linked article. His colleagues, appreciative of having to breathe his fumes were no doubt influenced to support his views.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 10-02-2019 at 07:41 PM.
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