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  #151  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Borgia View Post
I just don't think it's unjust that a single crime gets a lesser sentence than two crimes. (Technically hate crime is an aggravating factor rather than a separate crime, but I think the point stands. There are all sorts of aggravating and mitigating factors that can increase or decrease a sentence.)
Neither do I. I dont think I ever said or even implied that.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 09-21-2019 at 08:25 PM.
  #152  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:28 PM
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None of this answers my question, nor has anyone else thus far. I was trying to turn the question around from the opposite direction and examine this crime in particular, not some other theoretical crime. So imagine you are a judge who has to decide sentencing for these young men. You know for a fact that they were acting out of racial animus. Now decide in your mind what length of prison sentence they should get for this “hate crime”.

OK, got that number in your mind?

Now, tell me why it would be a travesty of justice to give these defendants that same sentence you envisioned, if you contrariwise knew for a fact that they didn’t care about the guy’s race, but were just out to have some good clean fun by viciously beating a defenseless person in a creative variety of ways....
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
It’s been answered zero times by no posters.
There's a straightforward answer to your question. Adding a "hate crime" charge may in sometimes make little difference in to the sentence, and may sometimes make a large difference. A hate crime element would usually make a much greater difference in percentage terms to something that would otherwise attract only a light sentence.

In this case in the OP here, the act in itself is so heinous that I would hope it would warrant extremely serious charges, perhaps even attempted murder, whatever the motivation. I would hope that adding a racial hatred element would make little difference (in percentage terms) to the sentence, for just the reasons you state.

But go back to the example of defacing a synagogue with "Go Bears" vs defacing it with a swastika. Here, the hate crime element of the second crime should make a huge difference (orders of magnitude difference) to the sentence. It elevates dumb graffiti to something more akin to terrorism.

Last edited by Riemann; 09-21-2019 at 08:31 PM.
  #153  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
Neither do I. I dont think I ever said or even implied that.
Perhaps I misunderstood you. But "unjust" came directly from your post.
  #154  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:46 PM
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To add to my comment above:

Slackerinc seems to be attacking a straw man version of hate crime legislation where it rigidly applies some fixed percentage addition to the sentence, regardless of the circumstances and whatever the baseline severity of the sentence.
  #155  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Isosleepy View Post
This is an excellent re-stating of the concepts under discussion.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
In this case in the OP here, the act in itself is so heinous that I would hope it would warrant extremely serious charges, perhaps even attempted murder, whatever the motivation. I would hope that adding a racial hatred element would make little difference (in percentage terms) to the sentence, for just the reasons you state.
Good post, very well said.
  #156  
Old 09-21-2019, 10:38 PM
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KidCharlemagne, if you want to dig into Pit stuff, letís do it there, not here in GD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
There's a straightforward answer to your question. Adding a "hate crime" charge may in sometimes make little difference in to the sentence, and may sometimes make a large difference. A hate crime element would usually make a much greater difference in percentage terms to something that would otherwise attract only a light sentence.

In this case in the OP here, the act in itself is so heinous that I would hope it would warrant extremely serious charges, perhaps even attempted murder, whatever the motivation. I would hope that adding a racial hatred element would make little difference (in percentage terms) to the sentence, for just the reasons you state.

But go back to the example of defacing a synagogue with "Go Bears" vs defacing it with a swastika. Here, the hate crime element of the second crime should make a huge difference (orders of magnitude difference) to the sentence. It elevates dumb graffiti to something more akin to terrorism.

I donít agree with your conclusion, but I grant you that it is a logical and well-argued case.
  #157  
Old 09-22-2019, 03:01 AM
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That is a quote of the legal code that supports what I said, that there is not any specific crime of "hate crime" that a prosecutor could charge someone with, and that "hate crimes" in the state are treated as a sentence enhancement to existing crimes instead.
  #158  
Old 09-22-2019, 07:06 AM
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KidCharlemagne, if you want to dig into Pit stuff, letís do it there, not here in GD.
I have no reason/desire to engage in an online stoning of you or your positions. My one jab was just for fun because I didn't understand the point of that post. I'd genuinely like to know about the gang incident and what's your issue is with hate crime legislation vis a vis the historical treatment of blacks.
  #159  
Old 09-22-2019, 10:49 AM
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Attempted murder might be a tough one to sell. I think robbery, aggravated battery, and wanton disregard for life or whatever the legal term is. When they jumped forcefully on his abdomen they could have easily caused major internal injuries and killed him. To say they tried to kill him is a bit too much, if they really wanted him dead, he would be.
  #160  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
That is a quote of the legal code that supports what I said, that there is not any specific crime of "hate crime" that a prosecutor could charge someone with, and that "hate crimes" in the state are treated as a sentence enhancement to existing crimes instead.
Isn't that how most "hate crime" legislation work? I guess I'm not getting why this is a significant distinction.
  #161  
Old 09-22-2019, 02:42 PM
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How many guys would you have to rob to get a decent take when you're splitting it eighteen ways?

Last edited by E-DUB; 09-22-2019 at 02:43 PM.
  #162  
Old 09-23-2019, 09:24 AM
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Isn't that how most "hate crime" legislation work? I guess I'm not getting why this is a significant distinction.
In this thread, some people are complaining that the perpetrators were not charged with committing a hate crime. There is not a specific charge of hate crime in the state. People were stating that an assault with a hate crime component is two separate crimes. That is not the way the law works in a state where there is not a specific hate crime law.

Complaining that a prosecutor did not charge people with something that is not actually an offense under the law makes no sense.
  #163  
Old 09-23-2019, 04:15 PM
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Again, I don't think the real dispute in this thread is whether the legal criteria is met for a hate crime or not. I think people are simply asking that the same standard be applied to all races. If one immediately considers whites beating up blacks to be hate motivated, then it should be the same vice versa - and ditto if one does not rush to label blacks beating whites as a hate crime, either.
Why though? It is entirely possible for hate crimes to not be symmetrical. I'm not confident about race, but I would be shocked if Jewish on Christian hate crimes were proportionally comparable to the reverse.
  #164  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Again, I don't think the real dispute in this thread is whether the legal criteria is met for a hate crime or not. I think people are simply asking that the same standard be applied to all races. If one immediately considers whites beating up blacks to be hate motivated, then it should be the same vice versa - and ditto if one does not rush to label blacks beating whites as a hate crime, either.
That is correct.

Doesn't seem to be the way things are though.
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