Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:13 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
"
States, regions, and countries with higher rates of household gun ownership have higher rates of gun suicide. .
Yes, and States, regions, and countries with more bridges have higher rates of bridge jumping suicide.
  #102  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:32 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
What I will give you is a wait period, though unconstitutional, actually made sense.

Studies do show many people purchase a gun for the purpose of suicide and that they are more likely to carry it out if done immediately.
waiting periods are perfectly legal. And, I am not opposed if they arent too long.
  #103  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:08 AM
DMC is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,740
Since it's obvious that you don't know the meaning of correlation, I'll not even bother with that. If you want to change my mind, bring some actual data to the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
National Research Counsel says what we've been telling you almost word for word.
"
States, regions, and countries with higher rates of household gun ownership have higher rates of gun suicide. There is also cross-sectional, ecological association between gun ownership and overall risk of suicide, but this association is more modest than the association between gun ownership and gun suicide; it is less consistently observed across time, place, and persons; and the causal relation remains unclear."


But if you claim to be a better analyst than all of theirs, you've got a big hill to climb to prove that.
I guess you're having a hard time reading your own cites. I've bolded the money shot. That report (it's actually a big-assed book titled "Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review") doesn't claim that there is no relationship, it simply claims that the relationship is more modest than the one between gun ownership and gun suicide. Just because we ain't fucking doesn't mean that it wasn't a date. It has also been shown to be lacking in the years since it came out, but there's really no use in posting any of those studies as you've shown no desire to actually take the time to understand them anyway.

That the causal nature of the relationship isn't proven isn't news to anyone who can actually participate in this discussion. For all I know, people with micro-weiners might be depressed and purchase guns to make them feel better (purely a hypothetical), but their depression wins out and they end up committing suicide. Could be that owning guns is expensive, causing money issues and increasing rates of suicide. Maybe some gun owners are too afraid to leave their houses and shoot themselves out of boredom. Don't know, don't really care for the purposes of this discussion. The correlation is there, whether we have causal answers or not.

My favorite part of this whole thing is that the vast majority of the published papers that were analyzed to create that report use the GSS as the source of gun ownership rates. Want to guess how many people are surveyed for that report?* I'll give you a hint: it's far less than 4,000.

*
SPOILER:
The largest number of participants was in their 2016 survey and it totaled 2,867. Hell, that's less than 60 per state.
  #104  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:09 AM
Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,080
There you go again, popping your own differently defined words in there in an attempt to mislead.
Causal relation, not causal nature.

A mild cross sectional correlation that is not consistent when you you look at different times , places, or people

Hardly more guns mean more suicides , that s a , " we don't know because the data doesn't support it.

They also tell you that the number of people who seem to purchase a gun for the purpose of suicide is high enough to skew the numbers so far , which is why you can't establish a causal relationship.

So yours and anyone else's claim of more guns means more suicide is wrong, more guns mean more gun suicides....that's all.
  #105  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:13 AM
Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
waiting periods are perfectly legal. And, I am not opposed if they arent too long.
Maybe only some states deemed them unconstitutional, idk I just recall Ohio having to do away with background checks because they caused a wait time ...until NICS was made instantaneous
  #106  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:32 AM
Littleman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,080
And let's clear up the meaning of your "moneyshot".

A mild cross sectional correlation which is not consistently observed over time, people., Or location means only in certain instances if you combine just the right data points you can make a mild correlation.

Squint your eyes and tilt your head and look at it just right and sometimes it looks like it's there but it can't be causal because there are too many conflicting data points.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-26-2019 at 06:33 AM.
  #107  
Old 02-28-2019, 11:51 PM
DMC is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 3,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
A mild cross sectional correlation that is not consistent when you you look at different times , places, or people
I have pulled data from various years to match up as closely as possible to whichever gun ownership data you keep tossing at the wall. I also have not filtered the data in any way, and have included all 50 states in all of my postings. Hell, if you provide some per capita gun ownership data that has multiple years, I'll even set up a viz with the year in the drop down so that you can play with it yourself.

You very clearly stated...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman
There is no consistent correlation between suicide rate and gun ownership.
I have simply proven that false (over and over again), no matter which data I've used (and I've used data that you provided) and no matter which time frame it represents. I can't find a single year or source of data for which there is no correlation in the US.

Holy fuck, I just realized that you're wall boy, so this is a complete waste of time. I'm going to nope the fuck out of here before I waste any more time.

Ciao!
  #108  
Old 03-01-2019, 06:40 AM
Ruken is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,556
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corr...and_dependence

Littleman seems unclear on what correlation means. This is high school math here. Barely -- some of you probably covered this in middle school.
  #109  
Old 03-01-2019, 09:44 AM
bubba001 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 304
I’m new here, but it seems to me the OP was about a change in the voting for blue collar whites. Now it’s all about stats and suicides?
  #110  
Old 03-01-2019, 10:16 AM
Ashtura is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubba001 View Post
I agree. If abortion was not an issue, it would move part of the electorate. It would deprive the republicans of a important issue with evangelicals, and Catholics. But a lot of folks in my rural area were republicans long before abortion became a issue.
I agree as well. If abortion was off the table, a lot more republicans would vote democrat. However, would that make up for the depressed democrat vote? Probably not. I mean, democrats have no real place to go, the just wouldn't vote. Its a fantasy land kind of thinking anyway.
  #111  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:14 AM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMC View Post
I'll let him speak for himself, but if that is indeed what he's saying, he's going to need to bring some proof.
The USA has more guns than people. If guns drove suicides, you would expect to see relatively high suicide rates in America but our suicide rates are not particularly high compared to other industrialized countries. In fact they are about average.

Access to guns does not seem to make suicides more common. However the method of suicide in America is HIGHLY affected by access to guns.
  #112  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:21 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Access to guns does not seem to make suicides more common. However the method of suicide in America is HIGHLY affected by access to guns.
There is evidence that if people are forced to delay their suicide, that they often re-think or decide not to commit suicide - and that if they have an instant means of committing suicide that is virtually guaranteed to be fatal - i.e., gunshot to the head - that in a particularly heated moment of anguish they can snap and have a means of suicide that can get the deed done in seconds. So having less access to guns can force them to spend several more minutes planning or devising a way to off themselves, which can be enough time for a change of mind.
  #113  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:23 AM
XT's Avatar
XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 35,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
There is evidence that if people are forced to delay their suicide, that they often re-think or decide not to commit suicide - and that if they have an instant means of committing suicide that is virtually guaranteed to be fatal - i.e., gunshot to the head - that in a particularly heated moment of anguish they can snap and have a means of suicide that can get the deed done in seconds. So having less access to guns can force them to spend several more minutes planning or devising a way to off themselves, which can be enough time for a change of mind.
I would wonder then why the US is in the middle of the pack, wrt suicides, while countries that have limited or fully restricted access to guns and thus more time to think and, presumably less lethal means to enact their suicides have higher rates than us. It's kind of a puzzle, no?
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
  #114  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:48 AM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
There is evidence that if people are forced to delay their suicide, that they often re-think or decide not to commit suicide - and that if they have an instant means of committing suicide that is virtually guaranteed to be fatal - i.e., gunshot to the head - that in a particularly heated moment of anguish they can snap and have a means of suicide that can get the deed done in seconds. So having less access to guns can force them to spend several more minutes planning or devising a way to off themselves, which can be enough time for a change of mind.
Sure, no doubt that happens once in a while. But it is not statistically significant.

Japan has NO guns but has a much higher suicide rate than the USA.
  #115  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:06 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
I'm tired of folks bringing up Chicago. They are so close to Indiana with lax gun laws that the Chicago laws aren't even a factor. We don't know if gun controls laws would work. We only know that localized ones don't.

In many instances "Chicago" is code for "them darkies".
  #116  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:10 PM
Fentoine Lum is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Sure, no doubt that happens once in a while. But it is not statistically significant.

Japan has NO guns but has a much higher suicide rate than the USA.

So #30 (Japan) versus #34 (the US)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate
  #117  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:29 PM
XT's Avatar
XT is offline
Agnatheist
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The Great South West
Posts: 35,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fentoine Lum View Post
So #30 (Japan) versus #34 (the US)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_suicide_rate
No, 14 verse 27. From here.
__________________
-XT

That's what happens when you let rednecks play with anti-matter!
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017