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  #501  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:38 AM
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We are never going to get anywhere with this, are we?
I think your last few posts have shown a lot of progress!


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I hope you and your family have a great holiday.
Thank you, and you and yours as well.
  #502  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:10 AM
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FYI, here is an example of rape culture in action:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...troy-life.html

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the 16-year-old boy being charged had penetrative sex with a visibly intoxicated 16-year-old girl at a boozy pajama party. The alleged assault took place in a dark basement, prosecutors told the court, where the boy led the drunken girl into a home gym in the basement of the house and blocked the door with a foosball table so as not to be interrupted. How did they know all this? The boy took a video on his phone and texted it to his friends with the caption “When your first time having sex was rape.”
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… [Troiano] wondered aloud if it was sexual assault, defining rape as something reserved for an attack at gunpoint by strangers. He also said the young man came from a good family, attended an excellent school, had terrific grades and was an Eagle scout. Prosecutors, the judge said, should have explained to the girl and her family that pressing charges would destroy the boy’s life. So he denied prosecutors’ motion to try the 16-year-old as an adult. “He is clearly a candidate for not just college but probably for a good college,” Judge James Troiano of Superior Court said last year in a two-hour decision while sitting in Monmouth County.
  #503  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:39 AM
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Both Bret Kavanaugh and Christine Ford mentioned receiving death threats. Do you believe that death threats are a significant harm?

Regards,
Shodan
  #504  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:39 AM
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In a society that approached the issue as I think it ought to, they would have no political future due to the misogynistic and dishonest way in which they responded to these allegations (both Kavanaugh and Trump). The outcry would make political support for them untenable. And so they'd be relegated to the "punishment" of living out the rest of their lives as wealthy white men in America.
I think this is the heart of the matter. You feel this way just because you feel this way, regardless of innocence or proof. This is your feel and they should be punished by golly! IN order to do that you have to start with belief of the accuser...

It has been pointed out many times why this is wrong only for you to fall back on , that is not what I advocate for.

But you do.

It is still wrong.
  #505  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:41 AM
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I think this is the heart of the matter. You feel this way just because you feel this way, regardless of innocence or proof. This is your feel and they should be punished by golly! IN order to do that you have to start with belief of the accuser...

It has been pointed out many times why this is wrong only for you to fall back on , that is not what I advocate for.

But you do.

It is still wrong.
What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.
  #506  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:43 AM
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He doesn't need to prove it. He's doing fine, and being treated fine. He's not being prosecuted, and in fact this isn't harming him at all.



Calling her a liar (directly or indirectly) is denigrating her. Pointing out facts, if they're relevant, isn't denigrating.


If she is lying in the accusation, then calling her a liar is not wrong at all. Not denigrating AT ALL, since you know, she is actually lying.

That's the thing.
  #507  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:47 AM
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What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.
You don't know any of that, it is just how you feel about their testimony.

Look Trump is a slimeball, we all know that but you are basing a defense of one thing on how he has acted on other things. That is also wrong.

As wrong as bringing up a rape victims past sexual encounters to prove she's a slut.

But an accusation that is false is a lie and stating such isn't denigrating the woman at all, since she lied to bring the accusation.

Now of course, if it isn't a lie, then calling her a liar is denigrating.


But you simply cannot hold the position you hold all the time about any accusation from a woman needing to be believed, since there are times when the accuser is lying.
  #508  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:00 AM
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You don't know any of that, it is just how you feel about their testimony.
I know much of it is misogynistic, and I know that much of it is dishonest. You might have a different definition of misogyny, but many of the lies can and have been very clearly demonstrated.

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But you simply cannot hold the position you hold all the time about any accusation from a woman needing to be believed, since there are times when the accuser is lying.
This is not my position.
  #509  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:08 AM
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FYI, here is an example of rape culture in action:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...troy-life.html
What a horrible story. Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

I am glad the judge is off the bench.

I am glad his decision was overturned and a hopefully more responsible body will have the chance to consider the decisions pertinent to the case.

I have no idea exactly what is on that tape, or what it shows or who’s case it helps. I don’t know, and I don’t want to.

I have no idea what is on those texts

I have no idea if he should be tried as a minor or as an adult. From the story alone, I lean to adult.

I hope they found out about the video because his “friends” turned him in.

The girl was driven home later by an adult? Where were the adults? Who allows 16 year olds to have drinking parties? I hope the homeowner is held responsible for allowing A drinking part for minors in their house and doubly so for letting it get so out of hand that some of the minors became dangerously inebriated. By held responsible, I mean trial and jail.

I place 0 blame on the girl whatsoever, but I wonder whether her parents have communicated to her the risks of alcohol consumption, and becoming inebriated and of the need to stay in control to protect oneself. Such a dangerous situation should never have been allowed to occur. When it did, she failed to recognize it. Again, this is not her fault. My hope is that she would have been taught to do so by her parents. I’m not blaming here, but I think frank discussions and education and teaching girls how to recognize, avoid, and get out of dangerous situations is a key factor, and a gift that every parent can give their children. I think they need to master it before they are allowed into situations where it might be needed. It doesn’t appear that that happened. There’s a raising awareness opportunity here.

This does not “demonstrate rape culture.” For all we know this kid is a little sociopath Ted Bundy in the making and his friends reacted in horror and turned him in. Or, maybe they were all in on it and thought it was funny. We don’t know.

I hope this kid is held fully responsible for what he did to this girl. I hope that he never gets past it, and I mean that in the best possible sense. It can haunt him for the rest of his life in jail, or it can haunt him for the rest of a long successful and happy life coloring his actions to continually atone for what he was done.

I hope the girl is strong and resilient, and this is one of those “make you stronger” type horrible things rather than a “fuck you up forever@ type things. That’s wishful thinking, but so what.

***

This is an “airplane crash” story. Horrible things went wrong with terrible consequences. These kinds of things happen. They are notable and stand out because they are unusual.

Airplane crashes happen and are similarly notable and unusual. There is not an airplane crash culture that is making or promoting crashes.

This horrible story does not indicate the norm and demonstrate a rape culture any more than a plane crash story negates the fact that air travel is the safest way to go.

You don’t judge culture by its crashes any more than you do air travel.
  #510  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:11 AM
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But you simply cannot hold the position you hold all the time about any accusation from a woman needing to be believed, since there are times when the accuser is lying.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii
This is not my position.
And thus we see a large part of the problem. These two sentences are not equivalent:

1) Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations taken seriously.
2) Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations believed without question.

Many's the time I've seen people rebutting the first sentence by assuming or pretending the second was what was meant.
  #511  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:11 AM
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This isn't an "airplane crash", it's the norm -- that's how the justice system approached rape for most of American history. This one stands out now because we're actually, finally, starting to change as a culture and society as to how we respond to rape.
  #512  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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This isn't an "airplane crash", it's the norm -- that's how the justice system approached rape for most of American history. This one stands out now because we're actually, finally, starting to change as a culture and society as to how we respond to rape.

You think that’s normal?

You do know it makes the news because it’s not normal. It fucking almost made me cry imagining that that was my daughter because it is not normal.

The judges decision was overturned because it was not normal.

That boy is hopefully going to jail and/or a life of atonement for what he has done, because what he has done is not normal. It is extreme and unusual.

I will help you by pointing out that the most extreme and unusual part is that he videoed it, and sent it to his friends with an admission that it was rape.

The judge said that this a smart kid with a bright future, but morality aside, this does not seem particularly bright.

I would agree that a guy taking advantage of an inebriated girl who is past the point of consent is a common crime. It is still not “normal.”

Nobody thinks this ok. Find a group of people who think this is ok, and then we can see if they constitute a culture.
  #513  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:46 AM
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What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.
What did Bret Kavanaugh say in his defense against the accusation, that was misogynistic?

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  #514  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:23 AM
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And thus we see a large part of the problem. These two sentences are not equivalent:

1) Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations taken seriously.
2) Women who claim to have been sexually assaulted should have their accusations believed without question.

Many's the time I've seen people rebutting the first sentence by assuming or pretending the second was what was meant.
This is absolutely true, but it's going both ways. You have people saying the first, but demonstrably acting as though the second were true. If someone questions the story or concludes it is not likely to be true, it's the same as an attack on the victim. It's "denigrating" to disbelieve their story, no matter what.
  #515  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:24 AM
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This is absolutely true, but it's going both ways. You have people saying the first, but demonstrably acting as though the second were true. If someone questions the story or concludes it is not likely to be true, it's the same as an attack on the victim. It's "denigrating" to disbelieve their story, no matter what.
Exactamundo!
  #516  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:16 AM
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This is absolutely true, but it's going both ways. You have people saying the first, but demonstrably acting as though the second were true. If someone questions the story or concludes it is not likely to be true, it's the same as an attack on the victim. It's "denigrating" to disbelieve their story, no matter what.
On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they're "questioning the victim's story" but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. "She's a Democratic plant!" "She's just trying to sell books!" "She's just making excuses for being a drunken slut!". If you're going to point out emotion-driven responses on one side of the debate, be sure to acknowledge the disturbing commonality of such on the other.

Last edited by Gyrate; 07-03-2019 at 11:16 AM.
  #517  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:29 AM
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On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they're "questioning the victim's story" but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. "She's a Democratic plant!" "She's just trying to sell books!"
Is it attacking the victim to mention that the accusations were made in the context of a tour designed to maximize sales of her book?

Regards,
Shodan
  #518  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:34 AM
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On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they're "questioning the victim's story" but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. "She's a Democratic plant!" "She's just trying to sell books!" "She's just making excuses for being a drunken slut!". If you're going to point out emotion-driven responses on one side of the debate, be sure to acknowledge the disturbing commonality of such on the other.
Again, if she is lying and you know she is lying (aka you were there, it didn't happen) then why would calling her anything other than a liar be the way to go?

If she IS trying to sell books, call it out. If they are being used as a political pawn, call it out.

Want it to stop? Stop using people as political pawns. If it didn't work or score some kind of points with the general public (even if it isn't going to be a criminally tried case), then it wouldn't be done. But you have andy refusing to think false allegations do any harm whatsoever …. right



Now at some point, it does cross a line into attacking her. I would agree that the line of "She is using excuses for being a drunken slut" is an attack. Did someone do that?
  #519  
Old 07-03-2019, 12:10 PM
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On the gripping hand, however, you have people saying they're "questioning the victim's story" but demonstrably acting as though they are attacking the victim. "She's a Democratic plant!" "She's just trying to sell books!" "She's just making excuses for being a drunken slut!". If you're going to point out emotion-driven responses on one side of the debate, be sure to acknowledge the disturbing commonality of such on the other.
One of the things that is hard to nail down in this thread is the specific vs. the general. Sometimes people are talking about the case presented in the OP, and sometimes they are talking about rape accusations in general, and sometimes they meander back and forth.

I don't dispute that unwarranted attacks do happen, and that they are completely reprehensible. I only take issue with the idea that any assertion made by an accuser is unassailable, and that questioning someone's motivation, veracity, or accuracy (which is what we would do in any other circumstance) is the same thing as saying "She was a slut! Look how she dressed! She wanted it!"
  #520  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:30 PM
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If she is lying in the accusation, then calling her a liar is not wrong at all. Not denigrating AT ALL, since you know, she is actually lying.

That's the thing.
But you don't know she's lying.

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Is it attacking the victim to mention that the accusations were made in the context of a tour designed to maximize sales of her book?

Regards,
Shodan
This is pretty much saying she is lying for money. I don't if that's 'attacking', but it does discourage victims from coming forward.
  #521  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:27 PM
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You don’t judge culture by its crashes any more than you do air travel.
Unproductive judging isn't the point. Pinpointing root causes and ameliorating them is the point.

When a crash occurs, you look for the reason why, and ask whether the cause was isolated or whether it is reflective of a broader problem we should address. You are suggesting that, for the two 737 Max planes that crashed in Indonesia and Ethiopia, we say, "gosh, looks like it was a software problem on that airplane. Oh well. We found the cause, so we're done!"

No. You ask what to do about all the Max 737s still flying. More broadly, you consider whether the culture inside Boeing and its relationship with regulatory agencies created an environment, where a crash - as blessedly rare as that may be - is of heightened probability due to factors that you can and should take steps to mitigate.

.
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Last edited by CairoCarol; 07-03-2019 at 07:29 PM.
  #522  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:03 PM
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Unproductive judging isn't the point. Pinpointing root causes and ameliorating them is the point.

When a crash occurs, you look for the reason why, and ask whether the cause was isolated or whether it is reflective of a broader problem we should address. You are suggesting that, for the two 737 Max planes that crashed in Indonesia and Ethiopia, we say, "gosh, looks like it was a software problem on that airplane. Oh well. We found the cause, so we're done!"

No. You ask what to do about all the Max 737s still flying. More broadly, you consider whether the culture inside Boeing and its relationship with regulatory agencies created an environment, where a crash - as blessedly rare as that may be - is of heightened probability due to factors that you can and should take steps to mitigate.

.

This is all true, but that is not the context in which I used the metaphor in which you can’t judge culture by its crashes.

Andy produced this horrible incident he cited as an example of rape culture. A word he used to describe this was “normal.” I pointed out that this was not normal. What he was doing was cherry picking and was as logically unsound as pointing to an air crash as evidence that air travel was generally unsafe when in fact it is the safest way to travel. That was the context in which I said you can’t judge a culture by its crashes. The fact that the crashes occur does not mean the culture is causing them just as the crashes in air travel do not demonstrate that air travel is unsafe.

If you look at my post on his cite that I also agree that it is very important to try to figure out the causes, and to consider what can be done better. I suggest several possibilities as to what might have caused and contributed to it.

I suggest the boy might be a little Ted Bundy and he horrified his friends by sharing a video, or conversely that his friends thought it was funny or cool (which would be a cultural problem within the boys social group, conceding that as a possibility but pointing out we don’t have enough information to make a conclusion.). I suggest that there was a failure in adult supervision and adults that allow drinking parties in their houses, and allow children to get dangerously inebriated should be held accountable. I suggest this could be a teachable moment in educating girls about protecting themselves, etc. etc.

I did not say and am not suggesting that we take an “oh well these things happen” attitude all. In fact, I think it is a pretty clear that I was endorsing the same sort of process you describe of dissecting the incident to find its causes and prevent such things in the future to the extent possible.

I actually believe we are in total agreement.

Last edited by Scylla; 07-03-2019 at 09:05 PM.
  #523  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:13 PM
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Cairocarol:

Quote:
You are suggesting that, for the two 737 Max planes that crashed in Indonesia and Ethiopia, we say, "gosh, looks like it was a software problem on that airplane. Oh well. We found the cause, so we're done!"
That was not what I was suggesting. You will note that I pointed out that we don’t know what caused or contributed to this boy doing what he did.

There is no “software problem” that we have identified.

If you can tell me what caused this boy to rape this girl and we could do something with this knowledge to prevent a repeat of this type of thing, I would be behind it. You should see that I tried to do exactly that.
  #524  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:24 AM
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This is pretty much saying she is lying for money. I don't if that's 'attacking', but it does discourage victims from coming forward.
Maybe it does discourage victims from coming forward. Is there any way to question any of the aspects of an accuser's story that doesn't?

Does "taking an accusation seriously" mean that we shouldn't ask about any of the parts that are unproven, or don't back up the accusation?

Regards,
Shodan
  #525  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:28 AM
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Does asserting "She's just making this up to sell books" fall under the definition of "questioning aspects of an accuser's story"?
  #526  
Old 07-08-2019, 11:39 AM
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No.

Does "taking an accusation seriously" mean that we shouldn't ask about any of the parts that are unproven, or don't back up the accusation?

Regards,
Shodan
  #527  
Old 07-08-2019, 06:52 PM
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What I wrote is based on the words of Trump and Kavanaugh, not the accusers. They responded dishonestly and misogynistically to these accusations, and IMO that ought to be more than enough to render than unacceptable from a public service standpoint.
Agreed. This is not a court of law. This is being tried in the court of public opinion (intentionally, I believe). Given that, it's entirely appropriate to form opinions based on not just the words and public behavior of the accuser but on the words and behavior of the accused in response to the accusations as well.
  #528  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:58 AM
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No.

Does "taking an accusation seriously" mean that we shouldn't ask about any of the parts that are unproven, or don't back up the accusation?
No, of course not. Taking the accusations seriously involves investigating them.
  #529  
Old 07-11-2019, 12:54 PM
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Agreed. This is not a court of law. This is being tried in the court of public opinion (intentionally, I believe). Given that, it's entirely appropriate to form opinions based on not just the words and public behavior of the accuser but on the words and behavior of the accused in response to the accusations as well.
Why do you feel like this is only being tried in the court of public opinion?
And in your opinion, is that enough to have someone lose a job, lose a social status (marriage) , or lose a political appointment?

Last edited by Kearsen1; 07-11-2019 at 12:55 PM.
  #530  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:01 PM
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I finally "sacked up," to use a term that's rooted in patriarchy -- and, hey, I'll say it, rape culture, which is a thing -- and skimmed through this thread's comments since my last reading/post. Which was here: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=167

I'm impressed to see many people on the SDMB still fighting the good fight on behalf of victims of sexual violence. I am not surprised that many other people on the SDMB are questioning victims' honesty, and engaging in increasingly picayune goalpost-moving to do so. THat is, frankly, what I expected when I first saw this thread.

It's a lot different to see it actually happen than to predict it'll happen, though. Different as in worse.

Right now I don't plan on coming back -- to this thread or to the SDMB as a whole. Which is a shame -- I liked it here while I was here. I'd like to think I occasionally contributed something, but I learned much more than I ever taught.

But the trolls did their jobs, and kudos to them I guess. Have fun second-guessing sexual assault victims, guys.

And best of luck to the rest of you as you argue with them. I'm just done trying or watching others try, for now at least. Maybe I'll check back in a month and see if anything's changed.
  #531  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:23 AM
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Not sure which thread to put this in, or start another, but yet another sexual assault allegation against Trump, this time by Karen Johnson:

https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...ts-women-book/

Quote:
“When he says that thing, ‘Grab them in the pussy,’ that hits me hard because when he grabbed me and pulled me into the tapestry, that’s where he grabbed me."
Trump bragged about sexually assaulting women. Multiple women have corroborated his bragging as factually accurate, even in the very specific way in which Trump described the way he sexually assaults women.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 10-09-2019 at 08:24 AM.
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