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Old 10-08-2019, 04:37 PM
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How was it done: cattle in E Oregon dispatched without marks or blood


NPR story here.

Not precisely without marks, since the genitals and tongues were removed with a sharp instrument. But no bullet wounds, no blood on the ground, no tracks on the ground, and no sign of any interference with the corpses by scavengers larger than insects. Similar cases apparently go back to the 1980's.

I am assuming this is the result of human action, and I am leaving aside speculations about why anyone would do this.

I can imagine a scenario where the bull (the recent ones are all breeding bulls, apparently) is knocked out with a tranquilizer gun and picked up in a large truck, with a winching apparatus. The bull is then mutilated and allowed to bleed out, maybe in the truck, or at any rate, at some location other than where it is eventually found. I'm not so good at imagining how they managed to drop the carcass without leaving any tracks, although I suppose there are ways of erasing one's tracks in the dust. Or I suppose they could have used a helicopter but that seems unlikely.

What do you think? How is it being done?

Last edited by Roderick Femm; 10-08-2019 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:27 PM
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I think it's creepy, disturbing and fascinating.

That country is so rugged and forsaken. Hard to imagine how equipment/vehicles could gain access without being seen by others (strangers would stick out like a sore thumb) or leaving any sign.

And to what purpose? If the perpetrator(s) just want to eliminate the breeding stock, why not just shoot them?

What's the point of taking various body parts and bleeding the animals -- but without leaving the blood?

Truly bizarre. I've no answers, but I'll be thinking about it.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:45 PM
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I think the soft tissue is being eaten by animals not strong enough to break through the hide, possibly skunks, badgers, opossums etc. It wasn't just the tongues that were removed it was also the lips and soft facial tissue. Very often the anus is also eaten. Why they died I have no speculation other than some kind of natural cause. Maybe coyotes have learned to pursue them until they are exhausted and then just start ripping at the soft tissue. The bulls usually lack the protection of the herd that steers and cows might enjoy. It is not uncommon for wild dogs to rip at the genitals until an animal collapses.

Last edited by HoneyBadgerDC; 10-08-2019 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:52 PM
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I'm sure these accounts are not accurate in their descriptions. HoneyBadgerDC has given a perfectly reasonable and likely explanation.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:57 PM
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Yeah, 'coz lifelong cattle ranchers have never seen an animal brought down by coyotes and wouldn't recognize one if they ran across it.

I've had livestock taken by coyotes. Nothing surgical or bloodless about it. Carcasses are usually torn to pieces.

Also, natural causes? I'd buy that if it were one animal, possibly two. But five? And all bulls, all prime breeding stock? That's stretching it a bit. More than a bit.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
I'm sure these accounts are not accurate in their descriptions. HoneyBadgerDC has given a perfectly reasonable and likely explanation.
This is an interesting reaction, considering that law enforcement is involved and has (presumably) seen the carcasses, as have multiple other people. Do you have any explanation why all those people would report the same thing, inaccurately?
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:13 PM
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This is an interesting reaction, considering that law enforcement is involved and has (presumably) seen the carcasses, as have multiple other people. Do you have any explanation why all those people would report the same thing, inaccurately?
I don't know what they reported. I assume whoever gave this information to NPR was inaccurate in their account, or maybe someone who gave it to them.

When you say they all report the same thing then that is a sign of fakery, people don't report the same thing like that, accounts normally vary, so a report that says that happened is immediately suspect.

The reporter claims that a bull's tongue and genitals had been surgically removed. There is no way for him to make that assessment unless he found some surgical tools in the area, it's another indication of fiction. As a matter of fact the entire article is devoid of meaningful detail.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:14 PM
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Not quite the same as the incident under discussion, but The Master Spoke on the subject some 35 years ago. Much of the article still appears to be relevant.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:18 PM
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This is an interesting reaction, considering that law enforcement is involved and has (presumably) seen the carcasses, as have multiple other people. Do you have any explanation why all those people would report the same thing, inaccurately?
Ever hear of 'crop circles'? People like a good story when the answer is amazingly mundane.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:22 PM
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Oh, I certainly don't subscribe to aliens or government marauders. I'm sure there is a reasonable, non-woo explanation.

But it ain't coyotes.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:23 PM
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Bigfoot. Just sayin'
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:26 PM
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The soft tissue is eaten by animals, probably coyotes. Flies clean up the ragged edges and suddenly you have "genitals removed by a sharp object with surgical precision!" And they have been drained of all blood! You would not expect an animal that has been dead for very long to still have any liquid blood in them, it clots up quickly you know, and by the pictures these bulls have been dead for quite a while.

No tracks! That is because there is this thing called weather that erases them.

The cow in the picture is just a bag of bones and has been dead a long time. Could have died of thirst or any number of causes.

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His red coat is as shiny as if he were going to the fair,
Oh come on!

Clickbait news with no facts. One of these alien mutilation investigations led to a similar exchange to "If coyotes did this they used scalpels. The response was "If aliens did this they used their teeth."

Unattended beef free-ranging on U.S. Forest Service land are found dead. If these bulls were so valuable then you shouldn't leave them to free-range without food or water in a hot, dry area that is little more than a desert with pine trees and scrub brush. Harney County is over 10,000 square miles with few people, little rain, high desert. So naturally that is where the aliens go for their research. There is a booming market for bull genitals only 25 light years from here. Maybe they should just take a couple whole bulls and cows with them and breed their own supply of beef genitals there. Sure would cut down on shipping costs.

I can assure you that the FBI is not looking into this.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
I don't know what they reported. I assume whoever gave this information to NPR was inaccurate in their account, or maybe someone who gave it to them.

When you say they all report the same thing then that is a sign of fakery, people don't report the same thing like that, accounts normally vary, so a report that says that happened is immediately suspect.

The reporter claims that a bull's tongue and genitals had been surgically removed. There is no way for him to make that assessment unless he found some surgical tools in the area, it's another indication of fiction. As a matter of fact the entire article is devoid of meaningful detail.
You don't think an amateur observer could tell the difference between organs removed by cutting (even if not "surgical") vs. organs removed by coyote teeth?

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Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Ever hear of 'crop circles'? People like a good story when the answer is amazingly mundane.
Your question should be directed to TriPolar. Crop circles did exist (may still do), they weren't made up, but they are/were done by people not aliens. I am asking how people think this thing was done, TriPolar is denying it was done at all.

It's true the article linked doesn't delve into much detail. That doesn't prove anything either way, it only proves they don't think it's worth spending their time to dig deeper.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
You don't think an amateur observer could tell the difference between organs removed by cutting (even if not "surgical") vs. organs removed by coyote teeth?

Your question should be directed to TriPolar. Crop circles did exist (may still do), they weren't made up, but they are/were done by people not aliens. I am asking how people think this thing was done, TriPolar is denying it was done at all.

It's true the article linked doesn't delve into much detail. That doesn't prove anything either way, it only proves they don't think it's worth spending their time to dig deeper.
I did not say nothing happened, I said I don't believe the accounts because of obvious flaws. The amateur observer in this case may be able to tell coyote bite marks, though probably not distinguish them from wolf bite marks, but he's not going to recognize all other causes of death or mutilation. An actual witness may have stated "it looked like surgical precision to me", which would be an actual account by a witness accurately describing his perception, but the article states "surgical precision" as if it were established fact, just another reason the story is suspect.

Last edited by TriPolar; 10-08-2019 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:48 PM
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Killing cattle with a hammer wouldn’t leave a mark, unless you vivisect it. If these are younger bulls, it isn’t impossible . Not easy, but well within normal human strength range. Easy explanation 1: someone is screwing with the owner. Easy explanation 2: these bulls just died (thirst, poison, disease) and the owner is making a story out of it.

Last edited by Isosleepy; 10-08-2019 at 06:48 PM.
  #16  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:58 PM
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I think the soft tissue is being eaten by animals not strong enough to break through the hide, possibly skunks, badgers, opossums etc. It wasn't just the tongues that were removed it was also the lips and soft facial tissue. Very often the anus is also eaten. ...

What caused the deaths is unknown, but the " genitals and tongues were removed with a sharp instrument" is small animals and birds- ravens, foxes, coyotes, etc.

The picture just shows a carcass.

If the steer died from humans, there is insurance and police, but "natural causes" and the ranchers usually cant collect. That explains why there is such a mystery over what killed them.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:59 PM
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Not quite the same as the incident under discussion, but The Master Spoke on the subject some 35 years ago. Much of the article still appears to be relevant.
NPR reporter Anna King needs to read that article, because it looks like she (and her editor, if there was one) fell for this hook, line and sinker.

From Cecil's article: "In most cases the modus operandi is the same: the deed is done at night, the deceased bovine is drained of blood, and various body parts, frequently the eyes and sex organs, are missing, having been removed with what is invariably described as “surgical precision.” Generally there are no footprints or vehicle tracks to be found in the vicinity...
According to The People’s Almanac #3, a couple Arkansas state cops tried an experiment in which they left a dead cow in a field unattended. Within 33 hours, buzzards followed by blowflies had neatly disposed of the eyes, sex organs, and even the blood, leaving the appearance of “surgical precision” behind them."


I'm voting for urban legend, rural division. Cows die.*

*and I'm ever so glad I didn't have to do the autopsies.
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:05 PM
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You don't think an amateur observer could tell the difference between organs removed by cutting (even if not "surgical") vs. organs removed by coyote teeth?
...
Not after ravens and what not finished off all the raggedy bits left by the coyotes.

This has been actually tested in the wild.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle...l_explanations
The hypothesis that natural phenomena account for most mutilation characteristics has been validated by a number of experiments, including one cited by long-time scientific skeptic Robert T. Carroll, conducted by Washington County (Arkansas) Sheriff's Department. In the experiment, the body of a recently deceased cow was left in a field and observed for 48 hours. During the 48 hours, postmortem bloating was reported to have caused incision-like tears in the cow's skin that matched the "surgical" cuts reported on mutilated cows, while the action of blowflies and maggots reportedly matched the soft tissue damage observed on mutilated cows.

http://skepdic.com/cattle.html
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:12 PM
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Why is it always in Arkansas that these bone-headed experiments are taken up?
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Old 10-08-2019, 07:15 PM
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Look at the area in the photo where the carcass was photographed. Dry as a popcorn fart, with no graze except petrified pinecones. Not exactly minimal territory for five prized breeding bulls. WTF: Five breeding bulls on a small farm? It's entirely possible they dropped over dead in their tracks from dehydration.


That thing isn't a fresh kill... it's been there for awhile, perhaps many weeks in arid conditions. Dead carcass's get picked over by ravens and other critters that tend to specialize in the tongue and anus areas without noticeable blood display.

Perhaps this could be simply an insurance scam, as opposed to proof of alien anal probes.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:16 PM
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"The forest is hot and still, apart from a raven's repeating caw. The bull looks like a giant, deflated plush toy. It smells. Weirdly, there are no signs of buzzards, coyotes or other scavengers. "

Bolding mine.

Yeah,gogogophers there's nothing to eat there for cattle.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:26 AM
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Yep Harney Co. Oregon is pretty solidly in the northern most portion of the High Desert Basin (location of ancient Lake Bonneville)that covers most of Nevada and a large chunk of Utah. Cows, not being a native animal frequently die of thirst or starvation or predation, nothing special about it except maybe the number of bulls in this case. Can't account for ranchers claiming it must of been aliens except they gotta claim something for insurance? Anytime I have to go through that part of Oregon, I always get a hostile and isolated vibe if I stop for gas/coffee/potty break. Its always seemed like a weird little corner of the state.
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Old 10-09-2019, 07:07 AM
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/deadlin...202636371/amp/


http://www.skinwalkerranch.org/links.html

Anyone been following Skinwalker Ranch?

Hulu has a special on it. Pretty odd goings on .
  #24  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:10 AM
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Other relevant reading including the Incredible Bouncing Cow.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 10-09-2019 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:17 AM
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"BAASS, created specifically for the Pentagon contract, conducted research both from Bigelow Aerospace headquarters in North Las Vegas and an infamous Utah ranch, formerly owned by Robert Bigelow (ownership has since transferred to Adamantium Real Estate, who manages the property on behalf of an anonymous owner). Commonly known as Skinwalker Ranch, the 480-acre property has been the site of reported cattle mutilations, UFO sightings and "large, ferocious animals with piercing yellow eyes" that bullets couldn't injure. From 1996 to 2004, Bigelow investigated paranormal phenomena at and around the ranch under the umbrella of his now defunct research group, the National Institute for Discovery Science"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...948051%3famp=1
Like I said odd.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:25 AM
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.new...948051%3famp=1

Why was Harry Reid involved in it? A pork project?

" the US Department of Defense “Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program” (AATIP) put his documentary team into “overdrive.” According to the Times, the program was created at the behest of Nevada senator Harry Reid and most of its $22 million budget was funneled to Bigelow Aerospace, a company founded in 1999 by the billionaire hotelier Robert Bigelow, a close friend of Reid"
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:23 AM
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Yep Harney Co. Oregon is pretty solidly in the northern most portion of the High Desert Basin (location of ancient Lake Bonneville)that covers most of Nevada and a large chunk of Utah. Cows, not being a native animal frequently die of thirst or starvation or predation, nothing special about it except maybe the number of bulls in this case. Can't account for ranchers claiming it must of been aliens except they gotta claim something for insurance? Anytime I have to go through that part of Oregon, I always get a hostile and isolated vibe if I stop for gas/coffee/potty break. Its always seemed like a weird little corner of the state.
Read the book Shadowlands and you can start to realize why the locals might not take too kindly to outsiders since the end of 2015.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:40 AM
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I think the soft tissue is being eaten by animals not strong enough to break through the hide, possibly skunks, badgers, opossums etc. It wasn't just the tongues that were removed it was also the lips and soft facial tissue. Very often the anus is also eaten.
Some years ago a show on the Discovery Channel featured surveillance of a dead elephant in Africa (IIRC, it was ill and had been humanely dispatched prior to the start of the show). One of the first scavengers to discover it was a hyena, and it really couldn't make any progress on the elephant's tough hide. So it ended up going after the anus. Andrew Zimmern would have been proud.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:03 AM
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Some years ago a show on the Discovery Channel featured surveillance of a dead elephant in Africa (IIRC, it was ill and had been humanely dispatched prior to the start of the show). One of the first scavengers to discover it was a hyena, and it really couldn't make any progress on the elephant's tough hide. So it ended up going after the anus. Andrew Zimmern would have been proud.
Beavis and Butthead would be laughing right now.

Heh heh buttmunch heh
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:39 PM
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The preferred terminology is cattle mutes.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:08 PM
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Urban legend that was well debunked decades ago takes in credulous and inaccurate public broadcasting station reporter, and subsequently is picked up by NPR, apparently equally credulously, is the real story. Which turns out to be a little less interesting, but should be worthy of a follow-up story on NPR, including apologizing for being so careless in their research. I mean, no one at either the local or national level raised their hand and said, "isn't this an instance of the cattle mutilation urban legend playing out?"

As someone who regularly hears reporting by Anna King, I'm not that surprised that she was taken in. Not the sharpest reporter in the deck.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:30 PM
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No rancher is ever going to publicly admit to any hint of negligence or irresponsibility that may get in the way of an insurance compensation. Strangely, the lost animals are also never in the "Well, Bessie was old and infirm, was going to cull her soon anyway..." group of the herd. They are instead touted as young, prime, best-of-breed...

It's all about chasing compensation.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:02 PM
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should be worthy of a follow-up story on NPR, including apologizing for being so careless in their research. I mean, no one at either the local or national level raised their hand and said, "isn't this an instance of the cattle mutilation urban legend playing out?"
Apparently they didn't even notice that, as DrDeth noted earlier, the story describes the presence of a scavenger in the same paragraph in which it says there was no sign of scavengers.
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:04 PM
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Why is it always in Arkansas that these bone-headed experiments are taken up?
Because, Florida gets first dibs on all of the human misfits.
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:07 PM
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I'm missing what was boneheaded about the experiment. It was debunking the claim that no natural process could have produced a carcass that looked like that.
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:51 PM
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Not quite the same as the incident under discussion, but The Master Spoke on the subject some 35 years ago. Much of the article still appears to be relevant.
It would be good if we looked back at The Master's wisdom in explaining the phenomenon, which endures even decades after.

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Originally Posted by Cecil Adams
In most cases the modus operandi is the same: the deed is done at night, the deceased bovine is drained of blood, and various body parts, frequently the eyes and sex organs, are missing, having been removed with what is invariably described as “surgical precision.” Generally there are no footprints or vehicle tracks to be found in the vicinity.
Wrapped up with a perfectly logical, natural cause.

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According to The People’s Almanac #3, a couple Arkansas state cops tried an experiment in which they left a dead cow in a field unattended. Within 33 hours, buzzards followed by blowflies had neatly disposed of the eyes, sex organs, and even the blood, leaving the appearance of “surgical precision” behind them.

Other studies have tended to support this scenario. In 1974, for instance, state veterinary labs investigating a rash of mutilation reports in Nebraska and South Dakota reported that every animal brought to them for examination had died of natural causes.
All hail Cecil!
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:54 PM
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It was me. Sorry.

I was trying something. Didn't quite work out.
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:59 PM
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NPR story here.

Not precisely without marks, since the genitals and tongues were removed with a sharp instrument. But no bullet wounds, no blood on the ground, no tracks on the ground, and no sign of any interference with the corpses by scavengers larger than insects. Similar cases apparently go back to the 1980's.

I am assuming this is the result of human action, and I am leaving aside speculations about why anyone would do this.

I can imagine a scenario where the bull (the recent ones are all breeding bulls, apparently) is knocked out with a tranquilizer gun and picked up in a large truck, with a winching apparatus. The bull is then mutilated and allowed to bleed out, maybe in the truck, or at any rate, at some location other than where it is eventually found. I'm not so good at imagining how they managed to drop the carcass without leaving any tracks, although I suppose there are ways of erasing one's tracks in the dust. Or I suppose they could have used a helicopter but that seems unlikely.

What do you think? How is it being done?
Chupacabra made it out west.
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Old 10-09-2019, 07:10 PM
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Chupacabra made it out west.
I doubt you read any part of this thread. If you go back and read it is pretty well explained.
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Old 10-09-2019, 07:11 PM
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Read the book Shadowlands and you can start to realize why the locals might not take too kindly to outsiders since the end of 2015.
Its been like that since the 70s, can you give me a summary of the story?
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Old 10-09-2019, 07:36 PM
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I doubt you read any part of this thread. If you go back and read it is pretty well explained.
I contend it was Chupacabra.

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Old 10-09-2019, 08:00 PM
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Its been like that since the 70s, can you give me a summary of the story?
Malheur take over by a bunch of raging assholes. It is way worse now thanks to people named Bundy. Cattle weren't dying in strange ways before those freaks showed up. </tinfoil hat>
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:03 PM
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I contend it was Chupacabra.

Since, at least in the US/Mexico, that is a coydog with the mange, you could be correct.
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:02 PM
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Sailboat is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Literally for decades scientific literature has refuted these stories of cattle mutilation, pointing out that the "eyes and genitals surgically removed" thing is characteristic of early-stage scavenging. Seeing this reported breathlessly in 2019 is like seeing someone presuppose smoking could cause cancer as if that's a new idea.
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