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  #1  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:29 PM
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How come there isn't more political violence in the US?


White/Christian Identity is full of delusional conspiracist paranoia. The Fourteen Words they have for slogan goes: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children"*. Conspiracy theories like The Great Replacement** advances that whites are being replaced by non-whites, much like one troop of chimps displaces another troop of chimps. They seem to be terrified that society will disintegrate into a zombie apocalypse with non-whites as the zombies that break into their homes to tear them apart.
They seem to earnestly conceive of themselves like this: http://i.imgur.com/sj0IO.jpg

If I had a Masada mentality like that, saw the demographic trends and especially after an interracial president, I'd be looking to clash sooner rather than later because time wouldn't be on my side. Much like the election of Lincoln made clear which way the US was heading concerning slavery, the election of Obama makes clear which way the US is heading in terms of racial relations.

So, why aren't we seeing more than a few isolated kooks? Shouldn't we be starting to see some '70s-style organized assassination and bombing campaigns from small groups? Hearing them speak, they seem pretty confident that if push came to shove, the military would largely side with them and that their macho fighting spirit would win over effete liberals. But, where is the bite after all that bark? Where's the concerted effort to fling matches into the gasoline and get this race war started already?

Why aren't we seeing some more violence from black people? If I were a black man in unfortunate circumstances, I'd sometimes start to wonder if Farrakahn's right and white people really might be devils. Haven't some black people thought: "Fuck it, we'll show them they can't treat us like this and get away with it"?


Political violence, either aimed at enemies or in false flag operations, could be used to give people like Trump or Johnson an excuse to abuse their powers. If they want to watch the world burn, the world doesn't seem that difficult to ignite.


* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Replacement
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:39 PM
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Because, ultimately, nobody likes the idea of themselves dying futilely. Sure, you'll kill a few of the people you dislike, and you'll make the news, but in a few days, the nation will be "over" it and CNN/MSNBC/Fox won't be covering it any more, and everybody will carry on with their lives, and you didn't make a bit of difference. The government won't change, the politics won't change (much,) society won't change much, nothing will really change meaningfully.

Meanwhile, you , the shooter, are dead.
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Old 10-07-2019, 05:08 PM
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In addition to what Velocity said (with which I wholeheartedly agree), as far as why hasn't there been more violence from the right: President Trump is in the White House and Republicans control the Senate. There's a high likelihood of getting favorable SCOTUS rulings in the near term. Why the hell would right-wingers want to kick over the apple cart under those circumstances?
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:38 PM
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Humans are somewhat rational creatures, and when the benefits of violence outweigh the drawbacks we are violent. When the drawbacks outweigh the benefits we do something else instead.

Right now the benefits do not outweigh the drawbacks. A few sporadic acts of terrorism aren't going to stop multiculturalism. This isn't the past when the police would help the KKK terrorize black people who registered to vote. Nowadays you go to prison for life for that stuff. A hundred years ago (hell fifty years ago) a few klansmen and police officers could violently terrorize those they saw as promoting a threat to white supremacy. Nowadays they can't, and if they do they won't get away with it.

Keep in mind violence is only one tool that right has used to try to stop multiculturalism and defend white supremacy. Undermining democracy is another tactic they've used for centuries. From slavery to jim crow to intimidating civil rights workers, they passed laws taking away people's ability to affect change via legal means (voting, protesting, speaking publicly, freedom of assembly, etc).

The right still does these things. Voter suppression, voter ID laws, gerrymandering, encouraging russian hacking, making protests illegal and heavily punished, etc are all tools to undermine democracy to defend white supremacy. They want to stop people from voting, gerrymander so much that voting doesn't matter, and encourage election hacking so voting doesn't matter and white supremacy is entrenched in the US. If they could they would change the constitution to empower white supremacy too. Meanwhile things that could bring them down (protests, labor movements, etc) are neutralized and broken up legally.

The modern right seems to be using the tactic of using legal means to marginalize their opposition, undermine democracy and defend white supremacy rather than domestic terrorism because in modern society with all our checks and balances, domestic terrorism is far harder to get away with on a large scale like it was historically.


I mean, its progress in a way. The far right still hates democracy but at least they can't get away with domestic terrorism anymore. And voter suppression may only disenfranchize 5% of black voters, as opposed to Jim crow that disenfranchized 99% of them.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-07-2019 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:09 PM
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How come there isn't more political violence in the US?

Because 'they' are waiting for the word, the sign.

My fear is that Trump might issue one inadvertently. Or worse, advertently.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 10-07-2019 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:33 PM
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Because the vast majority of the population are moderates and grievances they voice are mostly recreational outrage. They like to spar with their co-workers, friends, and family about issues but really can’t be bothered to do anything about them. That’s somebody else’s job.
The really vocal ones who get worked up enough to do something about it are on the fringe and there’s just not enough of them. They do make a lot of noise though, make for great soundbites, and the news outlets love to use extreme examples when reporting anything.
The media would have you believe the nation is divided 50/50 with white racist gun/bible huggers on one side and socialist politically correct mixed-race tree huggers on the other.
We’re not really as divided as they’d have you think we are.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:53 PM
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Because the vast majority of the population are moderates and grievances they voice are mostly recreational outrage. They like to spar with their co-workers, friends, and family about issues but really can’t be bothered to do anything about them. That’s somebody else’s job.
The really vocal ones who get worked up enough to do something about it are on the fringe and there’s just not enough of them. They do make a lot of noise though, make for great soundbites, and the news outlets love to use extreme examples when reporting anything.
The media would have you believe the nation is divided 50/50 with white racist gun/bible huggers on one side and socialist politically correct mixed-race tree huggers on the other.
We’re not really as divided as they’d have you think we are.
About 10% of the country (25% of voters) are liberals and another 10% of the public (25% of voters) are die hard conservatives.

The other 80% of the country don't want to be involved in a civil war because of us. I can't blame them.
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Old 10-07-2019, 10:05 PM
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Fundamentally, the number of radicals is very small. They may be vocal, and the internet acts as a megaphone, but it's not a movement, per se. It's more of a cohort.

As the esteemed H. Ditka points out, the party in power is giving some of the radicals a sense that they are winning.

Otherwise, the great middle is not part of the radicalized, so it is not useful to ask why they aren't taking up arms.

That said, one could categorize some individual violence as politically motivated, so there is that. But again, it's not a movement.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:26 AM
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...white/christians have all the power. They've got all the money. They control all the businesses. They run the government. The Trump administration is as white as white could be. So why aren't white people rising up and rioting in the streets? Because they don't need too. They can post youtube videos about "cancel culture" and rant about how the need to be woke has ruined comedy. White people have nothing to fear.

Black people have been fighting for their lives since they were bought to America in chains. Colin Kaepernick lost his career because he took a knee. They dropped a bomb and destroyed a suburb. Six men tied to the Ferguson protests are dead either by murder, suicide. The reality is black lives don't matter. America is a country that was founded on white supremacy. The constitution was drafted by long-dead-white-men. White men have all the power now and they have a vested interest in keeping it that way.

Why don't you see more violence from black people? Because it would be put down in a heartbeat. They would get slaughtered. Every time they say "Fuck it, we'll show them they can't treat us like this and get away with it" white people do something to show them that "yes, we can treat you like this, and we will get away with it." That's the reality.

At this very moment black people are disproportionately locked up in the industrial prison complex, they are more likely to be killed in interactions with the police. Why don't they fight back? Because they would be killed, and then they would be blamed and demonised, then white America would try and forget that it ever happened.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:20 AM
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It's because largely, the government is doing their work for them. Why expend the effort in violently attacking minorities when the police and the prison-industrial complex is happy to do it for you?

And that's also the reason Black people don't rise up violently. They can run those numbers just fine.

ETA: or what Banquet Bear said.

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-08-2019 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:53 AM
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Mainly, IMO, because of Freedom of Speech; you take that away and then you'll see, paraphrasing Clausewitz, the continuation of public discourse by other means.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:49 PM
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Despite the rhetoric, most people's lives are better than they were 5 years ago. There is more opportunity for everybody. The employment rate is great, they're looking for help everywhere. The delusion/paranoia factor is mostly the far lefts warped view of who white christians really are. The leftists that scream the loudest are dismissed as childlike and not taken too seriously. It's all part of the freedom of speech.

Juicy Smollet wouldn't have pulled his stunt unless he thought the scenario could be reality. White on black crime is the smallest statistical category. The conspiracies cooked up by the leftist leaders have led them into a delusional nightmare, and the right just shrug and carry on.
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Old 10-08-2019, 01:24 PM
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The conspiracies cooked up by the leftist leaders have led them into a delusional nightmare, and the right just shrug and carry on.
It swings both ways. You'd be better off saying the conspiracies cooked up by the fringe left and right make them look paranoid and delusional, and the majority middle moderates just shrug and carry on.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:17 PM
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I just assumed American political violence was just being overshadowed by the much larger amount of American regular violence.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:17 PM
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Can't we count church and clinic bombings; school and theatre shootings; assaults on queers, refugees, and other 'outsiders'; or massive death threats? Aren't these political violence? I note that 1) too many US cops are white supremacists and 2) most recent cop killings are committed by white supremacists. That's a suicidal attitude. See (from 2018) White and far-right extremists kill more cops, but FBI tracks black extremists more closely, many worry.

Much American political violence seems unreported as such. Oh, it's just another atrocity. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:21 PM
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I don't know why the assumption seems to be that the right is going to go violent. The right has it pretty good right now. If the fear is ooga booga minorities taking over, they can rest assured almost all branches of government besides maybe the house are on top of mitigating that "problem".

Is the assumption the left are all peaceniks that won't go violent if things are going bad for them? That seems like a silly assumption.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:34 AM
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... Is the assumption the left are all peaceniks that won't go violent if things are going bad for them? That seems like a silly assumption.
Between the asshole that shot up the Congressional baseball practice, the nut that killed all those cops in Texas, and the loon that tried to firebomb an ICE facility in the pacific northwest, everyone ought to understand that the Left has its share of violent pieces of shit.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-09-2019 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:52 AM
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My guess is that on the whole, the American populace still believes in the system. We feel that voting and peaceful transfers of power are the way to go in general. And this is reinforced by 240-ish years of peaceful transfers of power and the associated stability and prosperity that it has provided us.

Combine that with a mostly strong belief in rule-of-law and a mostly efficient law enforcement and criminal justice system, and it deters all but the most loony outliers from doing violent stuff for political aims. I mean, if your goal is to incite the population, you're fighting an uphill battle if you have to convince people that armed revolt is the way to go in the face of 240+ years of peaceful politics, ongoing prosperity (in general), and an almost total certainty that you're going to get caught and chucked in jail for your efforts.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:07 AM
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Because the vast majority of the population are moderates and grievances they voice are mostly recreational outrage. They like to spar with their co-workers, friends, and family about issues but really can’t be bothered to do anything about them. That’s somebody else’s job.
The really vocal ones who get worked up enough to do something about it are on the fringe and there’s just not enough of them. They do make a lot of noise though, make for great soundbites, and the news outlets love to use extreme examples when reporting anything.
The media would have you believe the nation is divided 50/50 with white racist gun/bible huggers on one side and socialist politically correct mixed-race tree huggers on the other.
We’re not really as divided as they’d have you think we are.
Pretty much this. The radical fringes who think all sorts of crazy crap (some of which has been posted in this thread) are just that...on the fringe. And there are, thankfully, not that many of them. Certainly not enough to have more political violence than we already do. Mainly, the strife we DO have comes from those fringe elements on either side. And, at a guess, that's how it will continue to be.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:12 AM
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Simple answer is because it’s not bad enough.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:33 AM
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Simple answer is because it’s not bad enough.
Bad enough for who? For a lot of them it isn't bad at all, but they have been brainwashed to believe that if they don't have it all what they don't have has been stolen from them.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:59 AM
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Simple answer is because it’s not bad enough.
I agree. Most people have good jobs and a high standard of living.

Most people will tolerate quite a bit of inconvenience before they get violent.

But when the food starts to run out, all hell breaks loose.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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Not to nitpick, Banquet Bear, but West Philadelphia is hardly a suburb. It is quite urban.

Back to the OP, the answer has been said what with the Right already pretty much having all the power, ergo the only thing that rallies them is the threat of losing it. This is why you hear things like 'white genocide', or fear-mongering about Shiara law, or just shit made up about immigration in European countries (that the goombahs will never read about, let alone visit) bringing about their downfall.

A couple of decades ago I was watching some documentary on, of all channels, MTV. It was about radical white supremacists and they were interviewing one prominent young skinhead who gave out the usual rhetoric and waved around his cheap-chinese made AK variant. They would intersperse this with interviews with a neighbor of about the same age who lived in the same neighborhood making fun of the skinhead. Anyway, to show off he the skinhead was shown on the phone trying to get his buddies to come and bust up some Gay Pride event. He made a bunch of calls. None of his skinhead buddies were interested in taking the time, he was even begging them since he was on camera with MTV. It was beyond pathetic.

Nowadays, the numbers are a bit higher when you count in the variations on skinheads, such as the Proud Boys et. al. but they really aren't exactly able to make a big splash. They've used up a bunch of one-shot media tactics (such as making Ngo out to be an innocent victim), their attempts to start fights (such as in Portland & Boston) just end up with them being outnumbered and depending on the cops to fight for them. Charlottesville was their attempt at a big splash and it backfired on them, and not just because of the deaths they caused. They've now been known to retreat in the face of milkshakes.

The fact that the Proud Boys have to travel from their secure suburbs into cities (where they are not welcome) to make any kind of violence splash is a deterrent. Hence why they have been doing things like attacking suburban coffee shops where they might not be outnumbered. Its not exactly going to make big gains for them.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:41 AM
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Bad enough for who? For a lot of them it isn't bad at all, but they have been brainwashed to believe that if they don't have it all what they don't have has been stolen from them.
I was replying directly to the thread title.

Who are “they” and “them” that you are referring to?
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:48 AM
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Simple answer is because it’s not bad enough.
Basically, this ^. And below are examples of why it isn't bad enough to trigger violence.
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Colin Kaepernick lost his career because he took a knee.
Kaepernick opts out of his contract, stages a protest, collects a Nike shoe contract and a whole bunch of awards, and gets a settlement from the NFL because they don't want to hire somebody who causes viewership to drop.
Quote:
Due to his advocacy, the NFL endured an eight percent decline in viewership from fans in the 2016 season with the main reason (cited by 30% of fans in one survey) stemming from player protests
Cite.
The police bomb a house with a bunch of crazies inside who are shooting at them. The firefighters can't stop the fires that get started because said crazies will shoot at them.

Thirty years ago.
Quote:
Six men tied to the Ferguson protests are dead either by murder, suicide.
Some protesters kill themselves, or die of drug overdoses, or are murdered. And this is because of white supremacy.

It doesn't trigger violence. Instead, this is the reaction -
Quote:
No arrests have been made in the two homicides. St. Louis County police spokesman Shawn McGuire said witnesses have simply refused to come forward, leaving detectives with no answers for why the men were targeted.
In the meantime, black unemployment falls to record levels, and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Trump
The poverty rates for African Americans and Hispanic Americans -- it’s been incredible, they’ve all reached their lowest levels in the history of our country.
Is this correct? Yes, at least as far back as poverty data has been calculated.

Regards,
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:20 AM
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I just assumed American political violence was just being overshadowed by the much larger amount of American regular violence.
Also, a lot of "regular American violence" is right-wing political violence, we're just so used to it we tend not to think of it that way.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:31 AM
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The police bomb a house with a bunch of crazies inside who are shooting at them. The firefighters can't stop the fires that get started because said crazies will shoot at them.
Utter dreck and nonsense.

The bomb was dropped on the MOVE house to try and dislodge a bunker on the roof that the police feared (despite it being unoccupied) and due to a poor decision to mix explosive types a fire was started as as result.

However, for several hours prior to the bomb being dropped the Fire Department had been using a water cannon to try and dislodge the bunker.

When the fire started, that water cannon was nowhere in site.

When questioned after the conflagration, the Police openly said in a Press Conference that the decision was made to "Let the Fire Burn".

I despise MOVE and their craziness, but don't make excuses for the wanton disregard for the neighborhood.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:31 AM
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Also, a lot of "regular American violence" is right-wing political violence, we're just so used to it we tend not to think of it that way.
Cite?
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:54 AM
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People are too busy playing with their phones.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:12 PM
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Utter dreck and nonsense.
No it isn't. From the cite provided -
Quote:
Fire engulfed the house hit by the bomb and spread to neighboring row houses, but firefighters delayed attempts to battle the blaze for at least an hour out of fear that they would become targets of any surviving members of the heavily armed group.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:15 PM
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The reason people don't engage in more political violence in America is akin to those who ask, "Why don't the people of North Korea just all rise as one and overthrow their dictators?" Because people don't all rise as one simultaneously. The one or few who stand up and take violent action, will simply be dealt with and neutralized one by one. The other 99% of people will sit on their hands.


(Not that I'm comparing neo-nazis to the oppressed North Korean populace, but you get my point)
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:33 PM
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No it isn't. From the cite provided -

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Water cannon. Suddenly unavailable. After hours of being used on the bunker.

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/20...bing-1985-move

Angie Lofton, a resident of the neighborhood: Everyone’s question at the time was why weren’t they putting the fire out. They were just gonna let the fire burn. Later we’d find out that the police commissioner and fire commissioner agreed to use it as a tactical plan.

William Brown III, chair of the Special Investigation MOVE Commission: We were told by the experts that when the fire first started, you could have put it out with a bucket of water.

The fire Department didn't need to endanger themselves. They just had to turn that water cannon back on. They had no problem using it earlier in the day.
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:36 PM
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No it isn't. From the cite provided -

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Taking your argument at face value - perhaps that's something that they should have considered before they dropped an incendiary device on a residential neighborhood?
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:58 PM
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Cite?
NYT - right wing extremist violence on the rise.


Also, just today on NPR there was a report specifically about the rise in right wing extremist violence in America since 2016. In contrast, extremist violence outside America has been decreasing for the same period.

I'll provide a link if/when my google powers are working again.

(I'm going to regret responding. I always do....)
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:09 PM
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Like many have said, Americans know they've got it pretty good. I suspect there is a VERY small percentage of people who are willing to risk their relatively comfortable life for a political ideal. So you get assorted random acts of violence by nuts of all stripes. But large numbers of folk aren't going to turn off the TV and get up off the couch to go to war against the government.

I occasionally wonder what would happen if those who are the least fortunate ever decided to try violent group action against the more comfortable. But I suspect we'd see the National Guard roll pretty quickly to protect moneyed interests. But a GOOD percentage of America's poorest still have it considerably better than many worldwide. And other than some religion, we lack the geographic/tribal divides that split so many states.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:13 PM
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Taking your argument at face value - perhaps that's something that they should have considered before they dropped an incendiary device on a residential neighborhood?
Maybe they should have tried tear gas and guns and evacuating everyone else and using a water cannon to try to knock down a bunker MOVE had on their roof and an hours-long standoff and getting family and friends and clergy to talk the MOVE members into surrendering. While the MOVE members tried to kill the police because they were angry that nine of their members were in prison for murder.

Maybe they should have tried that first.
SPOILER:
They did.

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Old 10-09-2019, 03:30 PM
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Kaepernick opts out of his contract, stages a protest, collects a Nike shoe contract and a whole bunch of awards, and gets a settlement from the NFL because they don't want to hire somebody who causes viewership to drop.Cite.
...from your cite:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
In November 2017, Kaepernick filed a grievance against the NFL, accusing NFL owners of collusion to keep him out of the league.[100] The NFL requested to dismiss the case but was denied by an arbitrator which meant the case would go to trial.[101][102] On February 15, 2019, it was announced that Kaepernick reached a confidential settlement with the NFL and withdrew the grievance.[103][104]
Can you point out what part of the confidential settlement showed that backs up your assertion here? Why does it matter that Kaepernick is also a successful businessman? How does that change anything I said?

Quote:
The police bomb a house with a bunch of crazies inside who are shooting at them. The firefighters can't stop the fires that get started because said crazies will shoot at them.
Addressed by others.

Quote:
Thirty years ago. Some protesters kill themselves, or die of drug overdoses, or are murdered. And this is because of white supremacy.
Or purposefully somehow lynched themselves. Don't forget the apparent "suicidal" lynching.

Quote:
It doesn't trigger violence. Instead, this is the reaction -
Yep. The reaction was black people got blamed. Exactly as I said. Thanks for providing a cite that proves exactly what I said. The police can't solve the murder case and the reason they can't solve it is because of black people. Thanks for making that clear.

LOL.

A single metric. A single volatile metric that doesn't measure those that are not seeking work and those that are imprisoned, a metric that doesn't say anything about quality of life.
  #38  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Maybe they should have tried tear gas and guns and evacuating everyone else and using a water cannon to try to knock down a bunker MOVE had on their roof and an hours-long standoff and getting family and friends and clergy to talk the MOVE members into surrendering. While the MOVE members tried to kill the police because they were angry that nine of their members were in prison for murder.

Maybe they should have tried that first.
SPOILER:
They did.

Regards,
Shodan
I'm not defending MOVE. For the purposes of this thread, let's say I agree that everything MOVE did was wrong, and no part of their complaint was justified. Okay?

I think it's still pretty fucked up that the government burned down a bunch of people's houses because they happened to live near MOVE.
  #39  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Maybe they should have tried tear gas and guns and evacuating everyone else and using a water cannon to try to knock down a bunker MOVE had on their roof and an hours-long standoff and getting family and friends and clergy to talk the MOVE members into surrendering. While the MOVE members tried to kill the police because they were angry that nine of their members were in prison for murder.

Maybe they should have tried that first.
SPOILER:
They did.

Regards,
Shodan
What did everyone else in the neighborhood do to deserve having their houses get burned?
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  #40  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:44 PM
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  #41  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:50 PM
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Unemployment's at 3.5%.

When it's in the double digits, you'll see more of it.
  #42  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
Can you point out what part of the confidential settlement showed that backs up your assertion here?
The part that says he got a settlement from the NFL.
Quote:
Why does it matter that Kaepernick is also a successful businessman? How does that change anything I said?
First you said he had lost his career, now you say he is a successful businessman.

The line of reasoning seems to be that we should expect more political violence because Kaepernick lost his career and is successful and got a setttlement from the NFL and a bunch of awards. That doesn't make sense. What makes sense is what I said - this is not a serious reason to expect political violence.
Quote:
Or purposefully somehow lynched themselves. Don't forget the apparent "suicidal" lynching.
:shrugs:

Maybe it was the Illuminati, and we should blame them for the political violence we don't see.

Conspiracy theories don't need evidence and can't be debated. They're faith-based.
Quote:
Yep. The reaction was black people got blamed. Exactly as I said. Thanks for providing a cite that proves exactly what I said. The police can't solve the murder case and the reason they can't solve it is because of black people. Thanks for making that clear.
We can't determine who is to blame for the killings, because witnesses won't come forward. One would think that if Black Lives Matter, witnesses would be interested in solving the murder of black lives. But they don't seem to be. No protests, no demands for justice. Go figure.

I hear complaints about the blue wall of silence when it comes to the police, and it is always seen as a bad thing. Which it is, when an injustice has been committed. The murder of these protesters seems also to me to be unjust. The wall of silence from witnesses is, IMO, also a bad thing.
Quote:
A single metric. A single volatile metric that doesn't measure those that are not seeking work and those that are imprisoned, a metric that doesn't say anything about quality of life.
Actually two metrics, but let's not quibble.

If you don't think unemployment and poverty say anything about quality of life, well, good luck with that.

Regards,
Shodan
  #43  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:08 PM
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I suspect that an ageing population has something to do with it. Possibly falling testosterone levels also as well as lower blood lead levels. All these would help explain in particular why there is less political violence than 50 years ago. More specifically there is no issue like Vietnam where young men were forced to fight in a war they didn't want.
  #44  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The part that says he got a settlement from the NFL.
...cite that they settled because "they don't want to hire somebody who causes viewership to drop"?

Quote:
First you said he had lost his career, now you say he is a successful businessman.
It is entirely possible to both loose your career and be a successful businessman. He lost his career. That is undeniable.

Quote:
The line of reasoning seems to be that we should expect more political violence because Kaepernick lost his career and is successful and got a setttlement from the NFL and a bunch of awards.
That isn't what I said.

Quote:
That doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't.

Quote:
What makes sense is what I said - this is not a serious reason to expect political violence.:shrugs:
Can you remember the reason why Kaepernick took a knee? Does the phrase "Black Lives Matter" mean anything to you?

Quote:
Maybe it was the Illuminati, and we should blame them for the political violence we don't see.
Or maybe its the systematic oppression of black people in America.

Quote:
Conspiracy theories don't need evidence and can't be debated. They're faith-based.
There is no conspiracy theory.

Quote:
We can't determine who is to blame for the killings, because witnesses won't come forward. One would think that if Black Lives Matter, witnesses would be interested in solving the murder of black lives. But they don't seem to be. No protests, no demands for justice. Go figure.
Blaming black people. Again. Go figure. Exactly as I predicted.

Who is it do you think has kept these deaths in the public consciousness? It isn't the police. The murders happened in 2014 and 2016. We know about these deaths and we are don't forget about these deaths because of black activism. If you have missed the "demands for justice" then you really haven't been paying attention to the story.

Quote:
I hear complaints about the blue wall of silence when it comes to the police, and it is always seen as a bad thing. Which it is, when an injustice has been committed. The murder of these protesters seems also to me to be unjust. The wall of silence from witnesses is, IMO, also a bad thing.
What witnesses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBC
Deandre Joshua’s body was found inside a burned car blocks from the protest. The 20-year-old was shot in the head before the car was torched. Darren Seals, shown on video comforting Brown’s mother that same night, met an almost identical fate two years later. The 29-year-old’s bullet-riddled body was found inside a burning car in September 2016.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...e-died-n984261

Were there actually witnesses? Doesn't the conclusion "there is a wall of silence" come from an assumption with no evidence?

Quote:
If you don't think unemployment and poverty say anything about quality of life, well, good luck with that.
You would agree with me that the poverty trend started under President Obama, and are a result of the policies introduced by his administration?

And here's a metric for you: 85% of black voters back any 2020 Democrat over Trump. Your metrics mean jack-shit to the black community. I'll trust them over you on their assessment of whether or not Trump has made their lives better.
  #45  
Old 10-11-2019, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...cite that they settled because "they don't want to hire somebody who causes viewership to drop"?
That's already been cited. Viewership dropped because of the protests he started, nobody hired him, the NFL settled.
Quote:
Or maybe its the systematic oppression of black people in America.
OK, let's play that game. Cite that the people involved killed themselves, overdosed, and got murdered, because of "the systematic oppression of black people in America". Especially the Palestinian.
Quote:
Who is it do you think has kept these deaths in the public consciousness? It isn't the police. The murders happened in 2014 and 2016. We know about these deaths and we are don't forget about these deaths because of black activism. If you have missed the "demands for justice" then you really haven't been paying attention to the story.
Demands for justice coupled with a refusal to actually cooperate with the police and solve the murders aren't demands that can be taken seriously.
Quote:
Doesn't the conclusion "there is a wall of silence" come from an assumption with no evidence?
No, it doesn't.
Quote:
And here's a metric for you: 85% of black voters back any 2020 Democrat over Trump.
Gee - black voters in the US are heavily Democratic in 2019 just like they have been for the last forty years. Stop the presses.

Regards,
Shodan
  #46  
Old 10-11-2019, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
That's already been cited.
...no it hasn't.

Quote:
Viewership dropped because of the protests he started, nobody hired him, the NFL settled.
Are you claiming the NFL colluded to keep Kaepernick out of the game because "viewership dropped"? Because the NFL vehemently denied that. If they were correct in your opinion to do so, then why did they settle?

Quote:
OK, let's play that game. Cite that the people involved killed themselves, overdosed, and got murdered, because of "the systematic oppression of black people in America". Especially the Palestinian.
Here are 16. Let me know if you need any more.

Quote:
Demands for justice coupled with a refusal to actually cooperate with the police and solve the murders aren't demands that can be taken seriously.
Who isn't cooperating with the police, the people who are demanding justice? The people who are demanding justice were all witnesses? I"m a witness?

Talk about conspiracy theories.

Quote:
No, it doesn't.
Then who are these witnesses that haven't come forward? Why do you insist that a person that got shot and then set fire to in a car would be a crime that had to be witnessed?

Quote:
Gee - black voters in the US are heavily Democratic in 2019 just like they have been for the last forty years. Stop the presses.
Why do you think that is? Don't you think that their lives have improved under Trump? Why is it do you think that they wouldn't vote for the person who allegedly improved their "quality of life?" Maybe those metrics you posted don't actually mean as much as you tried to imply that they did?
  #47  
Old 10-11-2019, 08:55 AM
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Not sure what the side discussion has to do with more or less political violence in the US, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear
Why do you think that is? Don't you think that their lives have improved under Trump? Why is it do you think that they wouldn't vote for the person who allegedly improved their "quality of life?" Maybe those metrics you posted don't actually mean as much as you tried to imply that they did?
One of the arguments I see often on this board is that many Republican voters, especially blue collar types, are 'voting against their interests'. It's a theme the runs though many discussions. Generally, the reason for this is that, while it might be true that the other political side does give them more benefits in some vertical category or categories, they have a single issue or cluster of issues that negates that, in their mind, which has them voting for the party they vote for despite this.

So, it's very possible that what Shodan said is true (i.e. standards of living have improved for minorities, and unemployment has gone down to historic low points) and either the people in question don't couple that with the Republicans (i.e. they don't feel that it was because of Trump and the Republicans that it happened...which, frankly, if it is even true I'd go with) or there are other issues that they care about more and cause them to vote for Democrats over Republicans, despite this.
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Last edited by XT; 10-11-2019 at 08:56 AM.
  #48  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
Not sure what the side discussion has to do with more or less political violence in the US, but:



One of the arguments I see often on this board is that many Republican voters, especially blue collar types, are 'voting against their interests'. It's a theme the runs though many discussions. Generally, the reason for this is that, while it might be true that the other political side does give them more benefits in some vertical category or categories, they have a single issue or cluster of issues that negates that, in their mind, which has them voting for the party they vote for despite this.

So, it's very possible that what Shodan said is true (i.e. standards of living have improved for minorities, and unemployment has gone down to historic low points) and either the people in question don't couple that with the Republicans (i.e. they don't feel that it was because of Trump and the Republicans that it happened...which, frankly, if it is even true I'd go with) or there are other issues that they care about more and cause them to vote for Democrats over Republicans, despite this.
The choice is simple:
1) Side with the racists, white supremacists, neo-Nazis, and all around bigoted assholes who dislike, mistrust and/or hate you and yours for reasons you don't fully understand.
OR
2) The Democrats

The question isn't why 85% of black folks vote Democrat, it's what the fuck is wrong with the other 15%?
  #49  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:40 AM
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Ignorance and apathy... Both parties are right-winged, and they both promise things that can't be delivered. You can't legislate kindness and understanding, so they'll keep promising it.
  #50  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:57 AM
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How come there isn't more political violence in the US?


Going back to the thread question, which I see it as being why not more organized armed political violence in the US today(*) — most of the RW/Identity would-be “patriot fighters” I read or hear from tend to frame their willingness to take up arms along the lines of the “SHTF” event when they can’t count on the authorities to keep order, or when the authorities “turn tyrannical” (= come for THEIR guns). Not about actively going out to seek and remove undesirables. And of course they are not actually organized.

Otherwise as mentioned, both on left and right most are as of now aware that anyone taking the initiative on a serious uprising would be taken down quickly, and the majority does not see as of now the situation demanding violence (and has a lot to lose in an upheaval).



(* let’s not forget the old-school Klan, our oldest domestic terrorist group, and the Weathermen, Macheteros/FALN, Omega-7, etc. in the not too distant past)

Last edited by JRDelirious; 10-11-2019 at 11:00 AM.
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